Here are my thoughts-

And island will be useful as a catch all for clutter every bit as much as a peninsula. Practice keeping your current counter space clutter free right now. There's a thread on that somewhere nearby.

My current set up is pretty much exactly like your penn. picture- doorways, tables and all. I want to change it to an island like your island pic. I have reservations about placing my fridge where you have yours drawn. I don't want two sinks in a smallish space. I don't want an island between my sink and fridge. I think I want my fridge to be kind of where you have the pantry pictured, only down a bit so its in the open space (Its currently in your pantry location, which really blocks that walkway. I just want it moved down a bit so someone can get through while someone else gazes into the fridge). I think I'd rather have my pantry where your fridge is pictured. I don't want the penn. because 1) that's what I've had my entire life and 2) I want to be able to walk from the door behind the table straight to the sink without traipsing all the way through the eating area and kitchen.

I think 24" is too narrow for an island. If you can swing it, wider would be better. Even 6" would significantly improve your work area. My current penn. is 24" and I have to spread very wide with my work stuff... really cutting into my little pile of clutter on the end of the penn.

Just a few thoughts -

With multiple cooks, I think in theory an island offers better flow for everyone. I have a peninsula in my kitchen right now and hope to replace it with an island. I hate it when DH & I are trying to cook or prep at the same time. We are always bumping into each other especially in the corners.

On the island configuration, could you move the fridge to the end of the sink wall and move the sink along that wall closer towards the stove wall? This would make the refrigerator more accessible to the cook and equally accessible to others. You could use the refrigerator niche for an additional pantry/cabinet space.

Another thought, if you could move the main sink to the island. You could then cut back the base cabinets on the current sink wall to 12" or 15" and this would allow you to have a 32"-36" wide island which would be more functional I think. This may not work if you like a lot of drawers or pull-outs however.

Thanks so much for posting your comments---I really appreciate it!

sammi2-the kitchen designer and I are thinking that 24" for an island is wide enough because there is a display that is 24" and it seems fine. The room is so narrow that we have planned it as narrow an island as possible to make the aisles as wide as possible because we want that open feeling, but I think there are a few inches to play with if we need to widen the island.

As far as the clutter goes, I am not in control of the other 2 people so all I can do is be realistic about the clutter while planning.

liney1-We had the fridge at the end of the sink wall at first but moved it because it blocks the doorway when you open the fridge door and comes out a bit into the aisle, and since we want that open feeling we thought that was best.

We can't move the sink towards the corner because the dishwasher would move as well and that door would hit the stove door because the stove is actually centered under a window on the stove wall. (sorry this picture doesn't have the stove centered on the stove wall, I didn't notice that when I drew on it, it's just the best above view I have).

We have the sink where it is because we want the dishwasher/sink combo close to the upper cabinets for easy dish storage. Also because the sink has a pass-through view to the living room that is also a tv and outside, so you're sort of facing "all the action" when you wash dishes. (You can't see the pass through on the above drawing.) Where would the the dish-drying rack go--on the island or behind you on the counter?

This is getting away from my area of expertise which
is stone, tile, engineered stone, countertops, etc.

BUT...

In MY own experience as a home owner, one thing that I look
at in both layouts is from the perspective of throwing
parties and entertaining at your home. Are you a recluse,
or do you have large groups of people over for Packer Games
and grilling huge quanitities of Brats...?
(ONLY Johnsonville of course - any others -
with the exception of Usinger's - are just not right)

I do all of the cooking at my house, and I HATE to have alot
of people standing around in MY kitchen when I am doing
Christmas, Thanksgiving, Easter, Packer Games, etc.. they
just get in the way because their "visiting" or trying to
"help"... argh

anyways, the island in my opinion will lead to blocked
travel paths when large groups are over, - the peninsula
is a nice alternative that allows more space in the
work area.

I have an Island in my kitchen now, when we
built our current home, my wife and I opted
for the "no island kitchen", but the builder
gave it to us anyways - they must have overlooked our option
(we got it for free to boot!!!)...
any ways, NOW...if more than one
other person is hanging around in the kitchen while I am
cooking - it really gets on my nerves... must be a "guy" thing...

anyways that is my .02 cents worth

kevin

Kevin M. Padden MIA SFA
Fabricator, Trainer & Consultant to the Natural Stone Industry
www.azschoolofrock.com

There was a thread running around here a few weeks ago describing 'barrier islands' - Well here it is folks. That island plan perfectly illustrates the 'barrier island' concept - an island that presents a barrier to efficient kitchen work flow.

True, if you are always going to have more than one cook, the island does enforce some degree of separation. But then you'd get arguments about "Who gets the sink?" and "Who gets the fridge?" because sharing just isn't an option... And parties in this kitchen? "Please open the fridge and throw me a tomato!" There's no crowd control at all. Putting a prep sink in would help, but at only 2' wide, there's not much space left for anything else.

If you don't like the penninsula plan all that much, I'd urge you to go back to the drawing board altogether. Look at things from a really basic perspective:

- Who cooks, how, when?
- Objectives - Openness we know. What else? Casual seating area? Could island seating work for that?
- What needs to be in certain places? (Doorways, water) And does it really need to stay there?
- Pet peeves (Briefly blocking a doorway with a fridge or oven door isn't the end of the world - it's a 3-second delay. A DW tends to stay open longer so is more problematic.)
- Traffic flow - You've got lines, which is good, but whare do those doors go? And are they low-use or high-traffic?
- Also, I see two recesses for the fridge and pantry. Do those already exist? What else is on the other side of that wall?

Riverrocks-

BTW - THANK YOU for posting really NICE looking
drawings!!!

I am a Granite Fabricator for a living
(OK for the last 30 years)......
and you would not beleive the "ca-ca" that I occasionally have to try to
decipher that people present to me as a ledgible "drawing"..
yeah - some are downright from from the BIZARO world!! I had
one drawing that was drawn on a (used) paper plate - TRUE STORY!!!

Any ways - KUDOS to you for taking the time to present
a WAY good looking and EASY to understand drawing!!!

kevin

Kevin M. Padden MIA SFA
Fabricator, Trainer & Consultant to the Natural Stone Industry
www.azschoolofrock.com

LOL, I just posted something about work triangles and Sweeby mentioned Barrier Islands and that's what you have unless you rework the kitchen. Thank goodness you're being careful in your planning to avoid problems later.

I had a similar layout years ago when my kids were little and they would sit at the peninsula and I would give them little things to help. But it really makes it a one person kitchen.

I'll take a stab with a suggestion. If you make your island the "prep" area can you move the stove closer to the sink and move the fridge where the stove is. That will tighten up your work area. Then add another sink where the fridge was originally. This will allow helpers to easily access the second sink, fridge and pantry as well as sharing the prep island without problems. You can access the stove from the sink side while they come from the fridge side.

Sky

Riverrocks,
My current kitchen is almost exactly like your peninsula plan. I am keeping it. I find it very convenient to use everything and it keeps everyone out of my traffic lanes. I have a small overhang(12") on my peninsula and have 2 stools there so people can keep me company without getting in my way. I have enough space for prep for someone to help me without just hanging around in the work space or traffic aisles.
I know the thing is to have and island, but I don't think yours is wide enough to really be useful and keep people out of the way.
the one thing I would possible do is switch the sink and DW. It gets you out of the corner and centers the sink, making it easily accesible to both the range and fridge. JMHO.

I just came from the kitchen designer and I have better pics to upload.

Also, I said I wished I could put a little hole in the counter on the island to wipe vegetable cuttings right into the hole into the trash but the problem is the tabasco sauce is going to go fall into the trash and she said she knew of someone who did that who used a little lid on top of the cutout hole over the trash and that I could get one from a restaurant store.

I loved the idea so much I asked the designer to draw a prep sink into the island and to move the trash cabinet right next to the prep sink so the hole above would be near the sink. So we drew it out and here it is!

(I have not researched yet if I can get one of these lids or what size the hole would be so I haven't drawn it into the drawing.)

The last drawing shows most clearly where the doors and windows are in the room.

The island is 24" by 78."

There is going to be a straight valance over the sink and the cabinets on the right wall will go to the ceiling e(they did not render in the drawing) and there will be cabinet doors on the fridge and dishwasher.

I'm not a fan of being hemmed in by a peninsula and like to have the option of a number of work stations in the kitchen, so I would opt for what you've planned...The narrower island plan made workable by the addition of the prep sink. Unless you have a lot of traffic in your kitchen, I might also do as someone else suggested and deal with 36" or 39" aisle on the sink side, in order to expand the island width a bit.

I like the pictures. It gives it the look of a galley kitchen, with the wide isle between the island and sink wall. I'm still concerned about the fridge location. Maybe you need refrigerator drawers.

Here is a link that might be useful: fridge drawers

Wow---these are really fabulous questions!

azstoneconsulting--
We are recluses. We never have people at our house. Party---what is that?? But seriously---it's just 3 cooks. There is a table for sitting if someone did come over to see the crazy recluse people.

sweeby-
I love your sweeby test and try to always keep it in mind while looking at the options.

- Who cooks, how, when?--- Usually 2-3 cooks at a time; chopping on a cutting board precariously balanced at the sink, microwaving, making tea or coffee in the coffeepot, cooking at the stove.

- Objectives - Openness we know. What else? Casual seating area? Could island seating work for that?--- There's a table for seating. Open airy feeling that you can breath, good flow, less paper clutter. I would really like to make the island a prep area that is usable from both sides and I suspect the only way to attract people to do their prep at the island might be if there's a prep sink. There's a few inches to make the island wider if needed. This idea of a slot in the counter for trash might really attract them to use the island (I'm so excited about that!)

- What needs to be in certain places? (Doorways, water) And does it really need to stay there? --- All 4 doorways have to all stay where they are (one would be very hard pressed to move one).

- Pet peeves (Briefly blocking a doorway with a fridge or oven door isn't the end of the world - it's a 3-second delay. A DW tends to stay open longer so is more problematic.) --- Right now we have a 22.5" inch passageway to get to the backdoor and fridge; and the fridge door collides with the backdoor; plus there is another 35" passageway at a peninsula where you have to maneuver around a full washer and dryer in the middle of the kitchen blocking the passageway to the door.

So we are living like rats in a maze. It's like you have to run an obstacle course to get to the back door and fridge. We wouldn't know what "good flow" is, and the island blocking the sink from the fridge does seem like a good layout from our "rat maze" perspective. But I know our perpective is probably skewed because our kitchen has such poor flow that I am asking for objective advice.

- Traffic flow - You've got lines, which is good, but whare do those doors go? And are they low-use or high-traffic? --- All of the lines are high traffic. The stove wall is the backdoor, the fridge wall leads to the front door, and the door on the sink wall leads to the living room where the action is. I didn't add lines from the door to the formal dining room because it is an unused room.

- Also, I see two recesses for the fridge and pantry. Do those already exist? What else is on the other side of that wall?---On the other side of the right wall is a bedroom and the part in the middle is the closet to the bedroom. The cutouts exist already as a hallway and water heater closet which will be reconfiguered.

skypathway-
We don't want to move the fridge to where the stove is because actually we want to put a window in the stove wall and center the stove under it (because we want that open feeling and this room has no windows).

footballmom-
We don't want to switch sink and dishwasher because there's a passthrough and I think it will feel weird.

For some reason the designer and I thought 24" island was plenty wide enough to work on from both sides without getting in each other's way --- are we both deluding ourselves? Please tell me before demo!!

rhome410-
Interesting so many comments on the island width. Maybe we had better rethink it? I made the aisles so wide because my family members are "pleasantly plump" and I thought there would be considerable bumping while passing each other unless I made the aisles as wide as possible. How narrow can I make the aisles and still make my family members comfortable?

Island width was just something to consider and to improve only if it made sense. Sounds like the amount of traffic/number of cooks and, perhaps, people size make the aisle width the higher priority, and where those few inches will mean the most to you. It's just nicer to have deeper counter for rolling out doughs, doing bigger prep projects, etc, but I think it's already an advantage to be able to access it from both sides, and if a wider island means uncomfortable cooks, it's not worth it! :-)

River, how about moving the prep sink to the other end of the island? Your actual chopping, mixing, measuring, etc., will be done just before and continue during cooking, so I'm thinking that work counter needs to be close to the stove. You don't want to be running and schlepping from the far end of the island.

First and foremost I think you need to design the kitchen the way your family flows. When I look at someone else's layout I tend to look at it from my flow perspective so the questions/suggestions that follow are from my perspective and are only meant to give you food for thought......

First, I'm not sure of how many are in your family and the ages of all but for me, the pantry seems a good ways from the eating area. If you have children this could clog your zone if they are needing to get to the pantry for a snack, cereal etc.

Next, I am with several others in that the fridge feels too far away and out of your cooking zone. You would have to walk around the island in order to get to the fridge from the stove.

Would it be possible to move the stove to the wall with the fridge, the sink to the stoves position and the pantry to the end of the wall directly across from the fridge? Then as another poster suggested, you could have your prep sink on the other end of the island. I realize this would change your layout completely, but again just food for thought in that it might spur an option that would be minimal with the same affect.

Thanks so much for the comments---this is great!!

rhome410-
I think if I had to choose between island width and aisle width I would go with aisle width because there are 3 cooks who need to pass and also because if there isn't enough room on the island for people to work I can make it longer instead of wider and stretch it from the edge of the fridge ( 6.5 ft long) to the edge of the doorway (8.5 ft. long). Is this a better idea? Is there a "minimum island width" rule of thumb somewhere?

rosie-
I put the sink at the end farthest from the fridge because the island is the landing zone for the fridge.

luvnola-
There's no kids. We definitely would have to walk around the island from the fridge to the stove.

If we moved the stove to the fridge wall, it would be inside that cutout in the wall I guess where the fridge is. Is that an option?

I was able to find a stainless food pan cover so that I can make a hole in the countertop and drop food straight into the trash.

Dimensions: 6 15/16" x 4 1/4"

Does this sound like a sound idea? (Do I need to make the island longer to accomodate the trash hole?)

Here is a link that might be useful: stainless cover

Walking around the island to get to the fridge would drive me bonkers.

Weedyacres just put in a 2' deep island. You might ask her how she likes the depth. I don't believe she has a prep sink in hers, though.

What about putting in a cabinet depth fridge on the end of the sink wall? Looks like you have a bit of room between the end of the cabinets and the door, so you could put the fridge at the end, and move the sink down a tad closer to the oven. Then you won't need to spend precious space in your island with a prep sink.

I personally would not want a prep sink in the end of the island where you have it because it would take up the best landing/prep area. If you absolutely have to have the second sink, make sure to get a cutting board that will fit over the prep sink so that you can use that for chopping space, too.

Not crazy about the trash hole in your countertop. If I were you, I would prefer a toe-tap mechanism (totally blanking on the name -- tapmaster? no, that's not right) for the trash pullout rather than a hole in your counter.

I considered the hole in the counter thing, but didn't want to give up the space and have the possible cleaning challenges it would present when there are other options.

I'd leave the island the length it is, so when you do want to go around the island it's not that long...It'll be better for traffic movement, too.

There are lots of people with 24" islands. When it makes so much sense not to make it wider in your case, I think it's fine.

This has been such a big help, you know!

I asked the designer to measure the display to make sure it was actually 24" and look at the diagram to see if it is actually 24" and she measured the display countertop part at 27.25" and she said the computer has the countertop part at 26" in the diagram (even though both island bottoms are 24").

So I had the designer change the countertop part in the diagram to 27-27.5" (depending on the edge) because we know the display looks wide enough to both of us and I would be comfortable with the island in the store. That narrows the aisles to 39.25-39.5" on the fridge side and 40.25-40.5" on the sink side.

I am really glad you guys pointed this out as something to look at!

rhome410-
I think that since the lid is actually flush to the countertop that it isn't supposed to be wasted space "in theory," but I am going to ask the designer to ask the person who has it if it is wasted space to her and if she would do it again etc.

Another way to do that trash lid is to have a piece of your countertop cut to fit with either a small handle, recessed ring pull, or finger hole to pull it out with. You'd need to mount a slightly smaller 'rim' under the countertop so the cutout won't fall through - but that's the most discrete and space-efficient way to cover the trash hole. (I almost did one also.)

On the aisle widths, a rule-of-thumb I've heard is that 36" is OK for a one-cook area and 48" for two work areas back-to-back. I don't recall anything specific for 'working cook plus foot traffic', but suspect 39.5" would be cutting it pretty close. I'd strongly suggest you mock it up using a couple of boxes, then play-act one person cooking and the other person walking quickly past.

sweeby-
The mock up with passersby idea is such a good idea that when my designer gets back in town I'm going to do that with the actual store display since I'm using that as a template. I know the aisle in the store display is 36" on one side and the other side is open so I can make that aisle 39" using two people and a long ruler or one of those portable islands in the store.

The countertop ring pull for the trash slot is also a great idea and I will definitely consider that one. It might be really heavy if it's granite.

We were just talking about how we can use the trash slot for most trash (gum wrappers, receipts) without opening the cabinet door and we're very excited about that "in theory."

I just located round stainless lid covers. So now we are debating the size of the trash slot and what objects want to be able to throw down the trash slot without opening the cabinet.

Here are the round sizes:

http://cookwarepro.com/food-pans-bain-marie-pots-lids-c-1_107.html

Update Bain Marie Cover, Fits BM-125 BM-125
Outside Diameter: 4-7/8 in. (12.4 cm)
Inside Diameter: 3-15/16 in. (10 cm)

Update Bain Marie Cover, Fits BM-200 BMC-200
Outside Diameter: 5-7/8 in. (15 cm)
Inside Diameter: 4-15/16 in. (12.5 cm)

Update Bain Marie Cover, Fits BM-350 BM-350
Outside Diameter: 6-11/16 in. (17 cm)
Inside Diameter: 5-7/16 in. (15 cm)

Update Bain Marie Cover, Fits BM-425 BM-425
Outside Diameter: 7-11/16 in. (19.5 cm)
Inside Diameter: 5-1/2 in. (1

Update Bain Marie Cover, Fits BM-600 BM-600
Outside Diameter: 7-7/8 in. (20 cm)
Inside Diameter: 7-1/16 in. (18 cm

Update Bain Marie Cover, Fits BM-825 BM-825
Outside Diameter: 8-7/8 in. (22.5 cm)
Inside Diameter: 7-7/8 in. (20 cm)

Here are the rectangular sizes:

ITEM NO: VOL93900
dimensions
6 15/16" x 4 1/4"

ITEM NO: VOL93600
dimensions 6 15/16" x 6 3/8"

ITEM NO: VOL93400
dimensions:
6 3/8 x 10 7/16

I'm going to take cutouts on paper of each of these sizes to the display countertop and see what they would look like.

Which do you think is better--round or rectangular?

What about a ventalation hood for the stove?

With your plan, I might consider putting the range at an angle in the corner and having prep space for the second cook in front of that big window. That way, you could vent better and, in my opinion, enjoy the window more. If you did that, I would push down the island towards the table a little

How about if you put the sink where the range is, and have the fridge and range on the wall where the sink is? Fridge on the end by the table and then put a prep sink in the island at that end.

todds-
For ventilation we are either going to get a dacor downdraft or a downdraft range (can't remember the brand name of that one).

histokitch-
I have thought about the corner range. Facing a view seemed to make more sense.

mom2lilenj-
I have thought about switching the stove to under the passthrough and the sink to under the window. I decided that venting is easier on the outside wall. Also, cooking is done during daylight and washing dishes at nighttime. So I decided that watching the wildlife during the day while cooking makes more sense than looking out the window at darkness while washing dishes at night. And through the passthrough at night you can wash dishes while watching tv and talking to everyone in the living room. So it just seems to fit our habits so much more that the stove goes at the window and the sink at the passthrough.

mom2lilenj-
I had a cabinet depth fridge at the end of the sink wall for a long time. It stuck out into the aisle between the sink and island. I marked the corner on the floor and practiced walking between the fridge and table and it seemed to me too narrow a passageway with the fridge door closed--worse if open. Visually it really looks uncomfortable as well because it's too close to the table and chairs. It just didn't work well.

The other thing is those cutouts. Since they are already there it seems to make more sense to use the cutout space for essentials like pantry and fridge to keep the room as open and airy as possible. I'm not sure a stove could go in the cutouts.

Thanks so much for the comments!

We are still very excited about the idea of a trash slot in the island countertop and that makes me think that an island is better than the peninsula in our kitchen.

Has anyone done this before? Does anyone have any ideas on which size or shape is best? (I wonder if I need to start a new thread just about this trash slot idea).

Here's some pictures:

What if you swapped the sink and the range, and then the pantry and the fridge (so that the fridge would be close to the sink). Your flow would be fantastic: fridge ->landing space->sink->prep->range. In fact, you would now have 2 prep spaces: island and perimeter counters.

Thanks for the comments!

sarschlos_remodeler-
If we switched the fridge and pantry the fridge would be where it is now and since the fridge door collides with the back door, there's frequent banging. Plus you can't open the freezer door to 90 degrees since the freezer door hits the back door on the stove wall before 90 degrees. (Definitely less than optimal flow).

I hope the playacting goes well. You might want to take some recipes for a meal like you actually make and blue tape and perhaps a marker - that's so you can label where dishes, pots, bowls, knifes etc. are stored or mark out the ref and pantry.

Here is a link that might be useful: Countertop Trash Chute

I was able to do a little playacting with the family members in a 36" aisle at the a display in a store and they said it was not too tight so surely 39" or greater will be fine.

I feel comfortable going with the island decision now. That's the really big decision to make.

Thanks to everyone on the forum who helped.

Congratulations...Confidence in your plan is a huge step. Now that you're more sure about it, you can just be excited about your new kitchen without the stress of second guessing yourself. Forge ahead and enjoy! It will be great.