It's a panacea to all the people who think that balanced training is cruel. Cesar has been much maligned in the press for his methods (which are effective)

Plus she looks good in her zippy little car and high-heeled boots.

I will never watch Stillwell again after seeing her as a judge on the greatest american dog TV show. she's arrogant and unwilling to consider anything that doesn't fit into her pre-conceived notions.

I watched her twice---decided she is more intent on producing a TV show than on teaching training/rehabilitation. She spends way too much time showing the misbehavior and little on remedies.

On the other hand, a show called Dog Town, about a rescue facility in the Southwest(That needs and deserves more financial support) takes much too long to correct undesirable behavior. But, they do care about the animals and do get results.

I have watched all three shows and none of their methods work with my Bully. She is not a problem dog, but I do try to get her to obey. That little SHHhh SHHH thing Ceasar does that seems to work so well on other dogs does nothing for Tootsie. She completely ignores it...even when I poke her little butt and do it. Tootsie also knows commands but chooses when to listen. The tempting thing with the treats does not work either as if she does not want to do something even the treats don't tempt her....oh she will try to sneak and get the treat she just won't do what I want...like if I want her to come inside...she will run in try to grab the treat and then run back out. I also don't like the idea of a choke collar which I have seen Ceasar use a couple times.....Tootsie will choke herself to death before she gives up. She is a good girl...she is just young and loves to play. She does not go potty in the house, she does not chew up all our stuff, and she is not the least bit aggressive. She is just stubborn, willful and wicked. I just find it amusing that the methods Ceasar use with so much success on his show does nothing for our toots.

Trinigemini, that sounds a lot like my soft-coated wheaten terrier.
I think your tootsie believes she's dominant? Possibly. I'm no expert.

Carmen, I 100% agree with you. Ceaser is great and I enjoy watching it. While me or the dog, it's just obnoxious to watch and yeah, doesn't give any good advice!

It is a amazing that people ever owned dogs without the "experts" and training to tell them what to do. When I was a kid 30+ years ago no one took their dogs to obedience class or read books on it. They just rolled up a newspaper and did it themselves!

I don't have a dog but I find It's Me or the Dog very entertaining. It amazes me what kind of behavior people will put up with. Like when the poor old husband can't even lie on the bed next to his wife without the Pomeranian attacking him. Or how the wife spends hours preparing homemade food for the dogs and serves her teenagers frozen lasagna.

Iemma- Thanks but I dont think Tootsie thinks she is dominant....even in the middle of play if I roll her she will go down without a fight. She also lets me groom her everyday without problems....and when I go to clean her tushie if she runs all I have to do is yell NO or STOP and she will. She also submits in other ways...like she won't stare into my eyes....even if I want her to...she has pretty eyes :-) I think she is just a bulldog and is stubborn. I could be wrong though...I have no experience in dog training and from what I hear bullies are tough to train. Before I get yelled at...she does know how to sit, stay, and she understands Come and Lets go and OUTSIDE. And we do try to train her....its just a matter of when she want to do things. I also enjoy all the dog training shows and I have learned a few things....like don't run to the phone or kettle when they are ready. Basically the shows have showed me how to act so my dog does not develop problems however.

When a dog doesn't obey or is stubborn, it is a simple lack of respect he has for his guardians. He thinks he is the top dog and really doesn't have to do anything anyone says.

My whole thing with Cesar is that he teaches us to be the 'head of the pack' without anger or pain. The choke leash isn't used to choke but rather to correct. If the dog is choking, you aren't using it properly and are getting no benefit whatsoever.

I agree with you, Carmen. I have never seen anything helpful from Its Me or the Dog. It seems like more 'entertainment' than anything else. I do like Cesar Millan, though, and his methods (along with obedience classes) have helped me to train my own dogs. With my newest dog, her naughtiness was stemming from her thinking she was higher in the pack order than me. Once we got that straight everything has been better.

Ser fri I don't understand why any buddy would want to become a biological parent to human children in this day and age,Seems very narrow minded and selfish.

We have SO much rules and responsiblities outside of work, the economany is all trashed up, people are getting autism/other handicaps at an alarming rate, schools are getting violent and outta control, VERY few people ever get to follow their passions,work at jobs they love unless they are rich or just plan lucky ( I happen to be lucky), There are too many humans, heck half of our population is either starving to death overseas or dying from some horrorable disease, if you want kids adopt someone else's foster child miss-match, IMHO.

By adopting a dog or cat, you are saving a life not condeming one to stress,hardship,pain. Or an early death through,drugs, sucide,drinking, car crash.

I do agree you about the lady who feeds her dogs better then her kids, she should rehome the dogs and focuss on her family.

Hey guys, there are literally thousands of way to train dogs. Who cares what works for someone else...Use what works for you. Obviously Miss Stillwell gets results or she would not be on tv training dogs and would not get results. As far as tv dog trainer personalities, I usually here nothing but people putting them down - they do what works for them and in my opinion if you are spedning time with a dog and trying to train it and it is working and most of the interaction is positive I am not going to bash anyone for that especially when so many pet owners can hardly bring themselves to leash walk their dogs once a day let alone 3 times a day or stimulate their dogs by play everyday...

Dogs/cats don't have it so good... period.

70%+ of all cats( thats kittens too folks) that go into our nations shelters get PTS ( ASPCA- sats)

most dogs and cats useally die from being PTS or eating very low quality food over a number of years.

wish not to be like them guys no matter how "neat" it may seem as you watch your dog have fun at the park., people have it MUCH better in terms of "basic survival"- thats does NOT include joy, happyness, freedom, playtime, its (SURVIVAL!.) I think the average loved pet has THAT advantage over us.

And yes there's lots of ways to train your dog. Some good some bad.

IMHO, Stillwell just isn't in the same league as Cesar.

Over the years, we have been to so many different training classes with a variety of dogs, with very mixed results, mostly rather poor. When the class did not go well, we typically thought it was the dog's fault: slow learner, etc. Then we started watching Cesar and he made the most sense of all. The pieces we never got before was (1) the importance of training the human and (2) how and why dogs react to situations. Our previous training experiences, by comparison, almost assumed that the dog thought like a human. The other huge fallacy, of course, is treating a dog like a human. After practicing just a few of Cesar's points, we saw a big difference in our dogs. Maybe we just went to lousy trainers in the past, but OTOH, none of them ever touched on the subject of training the human.

Wild animals have developed a system of group behavior over many years. It obviously works, or the particular animal would not survive as a group.

Dogs are domesticated, but still retain that basic pack behavior system. If a dog is treated alike a human, it confuses the dog---and the human---since the dog exhibits unwanted behavior.

That unwanted behavior is the crux of the problem. My neighbors Shi-tzu's unwanted behavior consists of becoming over excited and jumping on people's legs. That is the extent of the bad behavior---so extensive training is not a priority.

I have a whippet mix who needs her self esteem raised---her bad behavior is to cringe/snivel/cower when confronted by a human---not easy bad behavior to correct. Correcting this bad behavior will take many months, maybe even over a year.

The Rott/GSD I have was so aggressive he was going to be euthanized. That behavior took six months of work to correct---Cesar would have done the basic training of an owner necessary to solve the aggressive behavior in ten minutes----and told the owner the actual correction of the dog would take months.

So, as was pointed out earlier, the amount/type of training/rehabilitation varies widely from dog to dog----and from person to person. The only constant is people MUST treat dogs like other dogs would treat them. I can play with the neighbors dog any way I choose---I am not the Alpha for it. I can play a certain way with the Rott/GSD---but I maintain my Alpha standing continuously---stopping play at MY command, controlling the time/type of play.

I cannot do that yet with the whippet mix---I must continually praise her---except when she barks-----and find every moment to stroke her chin/chest(uplifting her posture to uplift her spirit) and initiate wild play whenever possible.

Different dogs---different training.

Victoria Stillwell is dealing with dogs that are spoiled and simply need a little structure. Simple dogs that react to a simple BAH.

Cesar Milan deals with dogs that are severe to the point that it is this intervention or it is the end for the dog. Not to say that they didn't get that way from being spoiled, but much more severe cases.

I would love to see Victoria give a simple BAH to a dog that has entered real "fight" mode. And yes, I watched the episode with Diesel the Siberian Husky. He was a dominant, but not dangerously aggressive ( a matter of perspective, I know)

I wonder if she would get all Emma Peel on it, and throw down some stilletto heeled kungfu??

I put on some black leather, got a riding crop, spoke to the Sibes using a firm British accent and threw out plenty of cookies. No change in their behavior what-so-ever. Maybe her methods work for some, but not in my backyard.

Seriously, Stillwell lost me when she publicly dissed other training methods during America's Greatest Dog. I have never heard him be less than professional about the methods of others.

I don't see what wardrobe or the kind of car she drives has to do with anything.

I love It's Me or the Dog. I think she's a lot better than Cesar Millan. All he seems to do is make a "sch!" noise and press his fingers into the dog's neck and tells the owners to walk them more. And some how it always fixes the dog? I don't think so. I think there's a lot of outtakes where his "methods" don't work at all. He's also very confrontational to the point where he's threatening. I'm sure he gets bitten a lot more often than what is revealed on his show. Some how he only gets bitten by tiny dogs on the show and not by large ones? Right.

Also, his Illusion collar is very dangerous for dogs. Especially small dogs. Putting all the pressure at the weakest point of a dog's neck can cause strangulation, pain, permanent damage and even breakage to their hyoid bone. Victoria uses the head collar that pulls the head around and also the collar that picks up the dog's front legs when it pulls. These are much safer and much more effective. AND humane.

Victoria uses creative and innovative techniques to train and I think these work better than anything of Cesar's. Dogs aren't stupid. She works with their psyche to make them understand. She understands that dogs have emotions whereas Cesar thinks of them as purely instinctual beings, which they are not.

I work with dogs as a living. Many dogs of all temperaments, all breeds, all sizes, all different backgrounds, all different personalities. I put her techniques to practice and I have put Cesar's techniques to practice and hers get results much more often. If they don't work for you, maybe you're not employing them correctly.

Actually, the head halters have a great propensity for soft tissue injury and damage to the spine. They are a management tool, not a training tool

I don't like Stillwell either. I can't get past the dominatrix outfits (who trains in heels?????????) or the fact that she was a dog walker less than 10 years ago to earn money for acting classes. Looks like she didn't get her money's worth

Here is a link that might be useful: the problem with head halters

I found out about Cesar a couple years ago, watched and found many of his techniques are quite similar to those I found useful. He does MUCH more than Tch and poke necks----but if a person cannot see what he recommends, his methods do no good. In fact, if a human cannot understand his methods, that human should not use them at all, since abusing his nethods will be worse on the dog. I do not understand how people can regard dogs as other than instinctual animals. They cannot reason---for instance---"I wonder if I should inform my master they are treating me wrong or just say the heck with it and act bad." They simply react to conditions---no reasoning or thinking. You make the conditions correct---and the dog has little choice but to react correctly. How else does one explain how his pack----with some former marked for euthanizia dogs can exist so well? Do we see the pack fighting? On occasion, he never says they don't. I've seen several episodes where his pack dogs attack---but the attacks are short lived and basically non injurious----because he has control. Most people who decry Cesar do so because his methods require a person to be a pack leader---and a lot of people simply have no desire/aptitude to do that successfully. They want to be a buddy to their dog---which is a disservice to the dog, since to treat a human like a dog is wrong, treating a dog like a human is wrong, but treating a dog like other dogs would do is natural.

The British person produces a show----she spends 20 minutes showing the bad things a dog does---with plenty of her posing with astonished expressions----and then says get the dog neutered or walk it more. Yeah, great advice.

Also, his Illusion collar is very dangerous for dogs. Especially small dogs. Putting all the pressure at the weakest point of a dog's neck can cause strangulation, pain, permanent damage and even breakage to their hyoid bone. Victoria uses the head collar that pulls the head around and also the collar that picks up the dog's front legs when it pulls. These are much safer and much more effective. AND humane.

I think all collars have their drawbacks and it takes the person on the end of the leash to be mindful of how they are using the collar, whether it be a choke chain or a head collar or whatever.

The illusion collar has huge warnings all over it about what dogs its appropriate for.... and they don't even make one smaller than 13", so anyone using it on a small dog is an idiot to begin with... its really the person on the end of the leash that makes any collar dangerous.

Great post! Both shows are entertaining, but if you really want to learn about dogs, Cesar is the teacher. Stillwell is simply an actress.

In regards to "It's Me or the Dog", I've found there's a very large difference between the British version and the US version. The British version is only half an hour long, and they spend far too much time showing the problems and not enough time showing the solutions. On the US version, with a full hour, you really get a good sense of what she is doing to retrain the dogs (and owners). I'm not even a dog owner, but I've got some good tips from the US version.

I personally won't use Cesar's techniques. I don't believe dogs are simply instinctual, like Handy mentioned. And they absolutely can reason.

Anyone who believes that dogs should be raised by "humans", not just simply "pack leaders", should read the new book by Temple Grandin (Animals Make Us Human). It has mounds of scientific evidence, and the co-author is in the field of neuropsychiatry and the brain. Also her older book, Animals in Translation, is wonderful. Dogs are more than instinctual beings who cannot reason.

Here is a link that might be useful: Temple Grandin

I think reasoning is a huge part of being a pack leader. Its not instinct that makes the dog follow the leader, its reason.

"Its not instinct that makes the dog follow the leader, its reason."

Well said.

Its also reason for the dog to think... " in the absence of a leader, I will become one"!

I read Temple Grandin's Animals in Translation quite some time ago ( I'm a sucker for a dog on the cover) I stopped dead when she stated one of the reasons wolves turned into dogs was that nursing human mothers probably adopted orphaned wolf cubs and nursed them at their breasts along with their human babies
?????!!!!

Her wild generalizations and "I might not be right but I could be" attitude do not smack of scientific research to me. Her ideas about dogs might be taken as remarkable by the complete novice to the subject--which is most people--but are no news to anyone who has been around the block, except where they are apparently inventions of her own.

Grandin is well respected in the field of autisim research and Catherine Johnson specializes in neuropsychiatry and has 2 autistic sons. I hope both are much more careful talking about autisim!

If you want insight into your dog..spend a couple of hours per week on a long walk in the woods-not reading these books!

And on the subject of Victoria Stillwell, can't stand her. She's an actress and a poor one at that. I have no use for someone who isn't open to using all tools available for behavior modification and training.

Milan, on the other hand,is a professional. The problem is a novice attempting his techniques despite the disclaimers at the beginning of the show. Serious problems need a professional there to guide the novice, not a novice putting his own spin on sight-unseen instructions from a television show, DVD or internet forum.

one of the reasons wolves turned into dogs was that nursing human mothers probably adopted orphaned wolf cubs and nursed them at their breasts along with their human babies

Thanks for sharing that quote. I won't bother checking that book out from the library...

The new book she wrote supposedly has tons of back-up from scientific research. Nobody (not Stillwell, Milan, or Grandin) is 100% correct in their beliefs and methods. So that one quote out of ALL the quotes in her book is no reason to not learn something from her. It's a shame that you stopped reading the book just because of that one quote - you probably could've learned some interesting things. I am no novice, and I've been "around the block"...I think both Stillwell and Milan are in no way perfect.

I have watched a variety of dog shows, plus when our two dogs were puppies we went through variety private to training classes for them.

I loved the private trainer we had, our female puppy did her own thing and always did.

It would drive my dad to distraction in trying to get her to do what was expected of her at the training classes.
The thing is she knew it all but only did if she felt like it.

Our private trainer told my dad when he asked was that we could break our female dog and have one of those perfect dogs that you will see out and about but then you can have a dog that is a dog and just let her have her personality and do her own thing.

We choose to let them be dogs and do their own thing, we went through some times but tons of great memories as we lost our female dog and she wasn't perfect but we loved her for her.

Our male is a great dog, he had his moments with his sister as he was a follower and got into trouble with that.

But basically he is a gentle dog, walks great with us and everyone loves him, we will meet other dogs and he doesn't react he stands there and puppies love him as they can sniff him and smell him and climb all over him and he won't do anything. The owners are in awe with him.

My dad and I both said if we had broken her and made her obey over and over again until she was the perfect dog and walked in a straight line and heeled, it would have been awful because we would never have gotten to know the true self she was.

We live in this world where it must be perfect, dogs, kids and people. And its so sad as so many are broken in being what they aren't.

Also different training out there, some will work and others won't. And yes, all dogs have different personalities like we all do.

You have to work what works for all of you.

If you think dogs can't reason, then you've either only met very stupid dogs or you don't understand dogs.

It's very clear that there's some devoted Cesar Millan worshipers here who have their minds closed off to anything that he doesn't suggest.

And his collar is not safe for ANY dog. EVERY dog has a hyoid bone and soft tissue in the neck region. ANY dog can have damage to it. It makes no difference who holds the leash or how.

gabro14- I did learn some interesting things from the book. In addition to the ... ummm ... interesting "theory" of dog evolution, I also learned

1. Her theory that leash laws result in undersocialized dogs. She goes on to reminisce about how, when she was a child, dogs in her neighborhood were allowed to roam free, and that there were rarely any fights. Perhaps this was the case in her neighborhood, but in most places allowing one's dogs to roam free without supervision poses many risks. THEN, in the chapter on aggression, she clearly states that "hideous fatal dog attacks on humans" average about 15 a year ("fatal" is the key word here). She calls this amount "tiny." After anecdotal stories that would certainly turn anyone considering getting a dog off the whole idea, she says: "If you are going to get a dog, you cant plan on preventing dog bites by keeping your dog safely locked up in your house or yard, either, because dogs almost always bite people they know, usually people they know well. Around four and a half million people get bitten every year, and the Centers for Disease Control report that over 75 percent of the dogs in these incidents belong either to the family of the person who got bitten, or a friend." (This is then cited with a reference.) The next paragraph contains the phrases "Left to their own devices, dogs can become dangerous to other dogs, to cats, and to humansÂ" and "Dogs are so aggressive by natureÂ"
Convoluted and contradictory to say the least

2. Grandin makes no attempt to hide her great distaste for pit bulls (she does not specify whether she is referring to American Pit Bull Terriers in particular, or all of the various breeds that fall under the generic "pit bull" label - not very scientific!) and also Rottweilers, German Shepherds, and Chows. She uses phrases like "statistics have shown" and "probably" and "pretty much" but then fails to elaborate on these supposedly evidential statistics, giving no information on who collected the information, when the study was done, or how large of a sample was used. In fact, most insight into dog behavior come third person anedoctal accounts of "My Friend's dog Fido, one day did this..." She makes the statement that animals don't generalize ( I agree) and then generalizes one dog to speak for the whole dog population. population. AND, she doesn't even own a dog!!

3. She makes the statement that skin color determines temperament and behavior, even in people. She confuses white animals with albinos and asserts that all white animals are crazy. According to her, so are marmalade cats.

4. She blames breeding rather than cramped conditions and a destructive, un-natural environment at commercial chicken farms which causes "rapist roosters", and other animal aberrations. Her speech about vets removing beak tips in chickens is just bizarre. As a specialist in the livestock industry, she would know it is a handler who removes beaks to prevent damage to valuable meat chickens in cramped quarters.

When the author focuses on what she knows - autism, and domestic livestock - the book is OK .. maybe even interesting. However, in wanting to appeal to a wider audience, she tries to include predator species such as domestic dogs and cats in her book. Her lack of direct experience with predator species is palpable in everything she writes about them and the spotty and out-dated references do little to back up her speculations, entertaining as they are.

I'm not that big of a Milan fan. He isn't doing anything different than many dog people have done over the years... he's just making a lot of money doing it on TV.

If you are training your dog right, you wouldn't need his collar...

I don't get how training a dog to walk nicely on a leash is "breaking" the dog. Many dogs are perfect companions without a strict walk and without domination. But SOME dogs loose their homes because their companions didn't give them structure. Whats much sadder than "breaking" a dog, is when a family has to give up a dog because of destructive or aggressive behavior because they never gave it structure. Structure is not breaking a dog....

I think Kathleen just meant having a dog obey every single command all the time...like a trained circus poodle. If thats what she means then I agree with her. Tootsie shows her personality most when she does not want to do something. For instance, if I call her inside and she wants to play...she will run over to me when I say come but then trot a few feet away and shake her head and prance and dance....sometimes she even convinces ME to come play with her. However, if I am serious and want her inside NOW...all I have to do s say NO or STOP and she will come. But I enjoy her few willful moments....She is trained and she walks well on a leash and is very socialized with other dogs. She also has learned her door manners and table manners. But she does not listen ALL the time...and when she wants her butt rubbed she won't do anything until she gets her way. I love her personality which shows most when she is allowed to do what she wants.

The biggest problem many people have with understanding dogs is they simply insist on maintaining dogs have human characteristics. They actually believe dogs have some of the same atributes and skills that humans have.

Dogs can learn amazing things. Now and then there arises an amazing dog---my son/DIL had one of those amazing dogs. He would sit and listen to you explain something, nodding at correct maments and wagging his tail appropriately. People swore he could understand English. Not so, he simply picked up on facial movements and body cues----what was said had not impact---I could speak gibberish and he responded the same way. Dogs react to very sublte body movements/voice inflections/posture---because their instinct tells them to do that with other dogs---that is their basic communication. Dogs simply have learned to transfer the same basic signs fom dogs to humans.

I raised/trained horses for 20 years---I have heard stories of how horses could do amazing things---think like people/etc. Horses could learn---but they could not reason.

I believe dogs can be changed much faster than most other domesticated animals---breed standards have changed for some in thirty years. That applies to cognative abilities as well. The average stray/loose dog today does often look both ways when crossing a street. That is not reasoning---it is selective instinct. Counrty dogs do not do that. Did you know city squirrels run across an open area differently than country squirrels? City squirrels run a more straight line---while country cousins run zig zag lines. Reason---selective breeding instincts---the squirrels in the city do not have hawks/foxes as preditors---requiring a zig zag path to evade capture. The straight runners do not get hit by cars as much.

The current issue of National Geographic has an article about Darwins discoveries and the things scientists have learned about natural selection since his theory was published.

I think its a false premise - that somehow forcing a dog to obey will break it?

For problem dogs, like are often shown on Milan's show, making them obey actually makes them MORE content... and they don't loose their personality. IN fact their real personality may come out more when they finally are trained, because they aren't in a constant state of aggression / domination /fear etc.

The dogs/families that get on TV are the problem cases - certainly not an average dog in an average situation.

Maybe I haven't watched Cesar enough, but have no idea what this collar is that some of you have referenced. I have never seen him use anything close to pain in his training and it seems everything he does makes the dog more contented.

This!
joepyeweed:I think its a false premise - that somehow forcing a dog to obey will break it?

Along with this!
joepyeweed:making them obey actually makes them MORE content... and they don't loose their personality. IN fact their real personality may come out more when they finally are trained

are very important points! Dogs have been companion animals for 1000's of years(you know, since we raised woves on human milk *L*). Bred to work beside us. In order to work alongside us effectively, the dog MUST listen and obey, and not just when they feel like it. Those who do not grasp this concept are losing out on a tremendous relationship with their animals.

They are NOT happy when they don't know how to act. They do not operate in shades of gray and LOVE black and white. Notice that it is black AND white. Yes AND no.

Children should be raised under the same principle. Show me a kid who's never heard the word NO (let alone learned to respect it) and I'll show you a kid who probably would benefit from a little "spirit-breaking" ( I prefer to call it learning boundaries)

I have said for years I raised my sons like I raised my dogs. I had dogs long before I had kids, and found the same basic system works for both. Rules, prevention, and love.

Now, there are other precepts used with kids---such as being truthful, leading by example, honesty, to name but a few.

But, establishing the house rules and sticking to them, preventing bad behavior instead of trying to correct it, and genuine love will succeed in a larger percentage of families---be the subjects kids or dogs.

Kids are more secure with known firm guidelines---and dogs require those things to be content. The strictness has little to do with concealing personalities---rather it allows full potential for expression---within the rules.

The same thing applies to us adults---we can be as creative/artistic/personality unique as we can be---within the rules of society.

Exactly! It is when the rules are unclear or wishy-washy that problems arise - humans and dogs.

I suppose there is such a thing as "breaking the spirit" but I would suspect that animal was abused rather than trained.

And in fact, it would be easy to consider lack of training as abuse. I would suspect many more animals are euthanized due to lack of training rather than too much training...

Yep.. its bad for every buddy when dogs are not trained.