Look at this clipping and search for "blakey". (The old threads can now only be found in clippings)

http://clippings.gardenweb.com/clippings/rosie123#ths.gardenweb.com_forums_load_kitchbath_msg031658407596

Blakey also has wood mode full overlay cabinets and hers are done beautifully. I am no cabinet expert, but in loooking at her farm sink, it is obvious that there should be another cover panel added to the front, scribed to the sink, so that the overlay doors don't stick out. Also, the recessed apothecary drawer cabinets on each side should be flush with the overlay DOORS, not the cabinet. Your dishwasher should also be flush with your cabinets and I think again that the problem is that the apothecary drawer cabinet should be pulled out.

One possible partial fix for the sink is to get taller doors that almost reach the bottom of the sink, then the full overlay would not stick out so obviously. Can the dishwasher be pushed back any further? If it is a Bosch, Miele, or Asko, they have less depth and can probably be pushed back.

Thank you scrappy - A "visiting" person from our dealer did come and say that we could get the apothecary drawers out from under the cabinet by possibly removing the shims under the cabinet and dropping it down to take it out. The worry is that the apothecary drawers will be damaged during removal. That is not a problem for the apothecary drawers on the left because the set on the left are bad and need replacement. The apothecary drawers to the right of the sink are also oddly recessed. They need to come forward, too. Those are fine. Getting those forward without damaging them is the goal. Then, there is a piece of filler next to the drawers on the right. What should happen there?

The dishwasher (Miele), can come forward. Right now, it is in at an angle. The cabinets on the left of the dishwasher are on the correct plane, so if the apothecary drawers come out to the forward position, the dishwasher can also be straightend out and those cabinets will be in alignment. That should work?

I looked at blakey's installation. She had a wide margin on both sides of her sink. Is the narrow margin a problem on my sink? Installation specs on Shaws sinks are rather vague.

I also can't tell on blakey's installation what happened to her vertical box edges. Are hers under the filler pieces that flank the sink?

I like the idea you expressed in your "possible solution" in your original post. I'd have this made to look like the apothecary drawers. A false front, if you will.

There were posts by ebse last year who had the same problem of a missing overlay panel on her farmhouse sink with Brookhaven cabinets. It looked much better with the additional panel.

Do I see a tile countertop? I have no idea how you can remove cabinets from under that to replace them without major damage to something or another.

Best of luck with the corrections.

OK - my new word of the day: overlay panel!

Yes, buffalotina - it is a tile countertop. You are right. That is a potential problem - - but the water damaged apothecary drawers need to come out somehow or another, so it is a catch 22.

One thing I am wondering, though. Look at where the base is on the apothecary drawers. The apothecary drawers are framed cabinetry. Maybe part of the problem is that framed and frameless don't work together in the same cabinet stretch?

I am wondering this because of the bases. The bases of the cabinets are in the same plane right now. Maybe that is what the installation crew used to align the cabinets resulting in the recessed apothecary drawers.

If the apothecary drawers come forward, the apothecary drawer base will also come forward and it will be too far forward.

So, when we go to put on the toe kick molding, won't the apothecary drawer's base be in the way if pulled forward?

I think the apothecary drawers are OK where they are...but I would get the input of the KDs here. But, honestly, with that edging on the countertop... it looks like it drops down over the front of the cabinets. I would get your dealer/installer's take on how they can get the cabinets out without demoing that edging on the counter...

About your other threads: I think you need expert independent advice about that cooktop situation. It looks like the sides of the cabinets were cut and that may have lead to the failure of the cross piece. It may also lead to structural problems.

I'm not sure why they chose such a deep false panel surround for the sink--other than the top of the door aligns with the top of one of the spice drawers. I'd have the whole run torn out and redone with a completely different sink cabinet and have the spice drawers ordered void the toekick and field create one so they can sit at whatever depth you desire. The corner can have a filler overlay.
Countertops should never have gone on top of this cabinet install. Since they have, it's up to the cabinet installers to fix the problem, and if it involves tearing out the countertops, so be it. And, if any damages occur, then it's up to them to fix that too---at their cost. No cost to you. You're letting them off way too easy to not name names and let them bandaid these issues instead of insisting on your money back or new cabinets.

Do people really demand total rip-outs of cabinets for these types of problems? Really?

OK, I'm going to chime in. Plumeriavine, your cabinets are BEAUTIFUL! I would be SICK at the way your installation has been butchered. It seems that you've gotten very good advice here for your various problems. But who is going to fix these problems? The same people who butchered your beautiful Woodmode cabinets? Are you crazy? No offense, but I know you spent a lot of money for your kitchen, and what your installer has done is unacceptable. You NEED to get someone else to fix your problems, or you will continue to go around in circles.

JMHO.

Barb

Barb -

Where do I even find someone else??

You find another carpenter. Call your local lumber company and ask them for a list of carpenters that are looking for work that they recommend. Contact another Woodmode dealer and ask for advice. Ask your friends and neighbors for referrals. I'm sure there are plenty of people that are looking for work. You might just have to "bite the bullet" and pay someone $$$ to get your kitchen fixed.

Unfortunately, like another poster said, you may have to contact a lawyer. Not fun, but probably necessary.

You deserve a beautiful, correctly installed kitchen. Woodmode is a top notch cabinet company.

I would also find out who the president of Woodmode is and write them a letter suggesting that they not authorize your kitchen Company as an official Woodmode dealer, and explain why. You might also mention in your letter that you don't know who to turn to for help. Hey, you never know, they may be willing to help you out. Your problems have nothing to do with Woodmode IMHO, so I think your letter should be pro-Woodmode and anti-Woodmode dealer. If you can get the email address of the President, or another highup, try that too.

You might also contact your local TV news and tell them your story. They might be able to negotiate a fix for you.

The bottom line is this: Take ACTION! Talking time is over.

I wish you much luck with your kitchen!

Barb

Let me tell what happens when I call other Wood-Mode dealers in the area.

I offer to pay them to, for example, come and just simply help me to identify problems and ways to fix the kitchen. They say they'd love to. Some even set up appointments. Then, they say they talked with the Wood-Mode rep. The Wood-Mode rep tells them something. These other dealers are pleasant about it but generally say, "The Wood-Mode rep is handling your concerns. We can't help you after all." I call the Wood-Mode rep. The Wood-Mode area rep then says he is not really working on it and can't help me because he is a dealer rep, not a homeowner rep and that he tells them he is working on it because he has to "protect his dealers." He then refers me to Wood-Mode back east. My e-mails and calls go unreturned from Wood-Mode back east but the e-mails are forwarded again to my dealer according to the dealer.

How do I break this cycle?

What can an independent carpenter do?

What could a different brand of cabinet company do?

Have you consulted a lawyer yet? It may be worth a few hundred $ to buy a couple of hours of a lawyer's time to get your legal options clear. Even if you never get to the point of filing suit, you will want to know your rights, and make sure that you are taking the right steps (and gathering the right documentation) to preserve them. Maybe having a worst-case scenario planned out will help lower your stress now.

Plumeriavine,

It makes me sick to my stomach reading all the problems you've had with your kitchen installation. I agree with many others that the bulk of the problems resides in the design and installation of your cabinets. From what I've seen from your posts, the cabinets themselves are gorgeous. And it seems like your installer and dealer are giving you the run around. Perhaps you shouldn't trust what they are telling you. Between the sink installation and the problems with the hack job on the cooktop cabinets (I mean, who in their right mind would cut through the sides of 2 cabinets to fit in a cooktop when the sides are structural members?), not to mention the other issues, these should be your red flags to stop payment to your dealer/installer and RUN as fast as you can from them. The crown molding job is a joke! I can install those moldings better than your contractor. That's a bad sign. What's worse than the bad installation is that your dealer is charging you extras for her mistakes. That is a shame! Wood-Mode has nothing to do with this dealer's incompetence. Wood-Mode just makes and ships out what the dealers order (wrong pullout for your pantry? => Your designer ordered the wrong part!!!! Not that Wood-Mode sent the wrong part!).

I have Brookhaven cabinets in my kitchen. I love them! There were some minor issues which were very quickly taken care of because the dealer put in the order for replacements. No questions asked, at no additional costs.

You need to speak directly to Wood-Mode. It was hard getting a phone number, but you should contact their factory in Kreamer PA at 570-374-2711. That number puts you to the factory. Just ask the receptionist for someone in customer service to talk to them directly. I would suggest emailing them an inventory of all your grievances and photos. Good luck!

Has anyone successfully installed a apron sink in frameless cabinets? I really don't like the look of the plain board beneath the sink, and all the exposed seams. I think at the very least they have to give you taller doors that come up to the bottom of the sink , minus 1/4" or so.
I can understand how maybe the 1x4 has to stay for reinforcement, but it should be covered, by doors or another moulded trim piece, something that covers all of the seams. If you get new doors, they will have to be bored for hinges on-site, OR tell the factory to drill them the same as the short doors you were given; if tall doors are drilled normally, you will not be able to install them and allow the 1x4 support to stay.
It will interfere.
Could the apothecary drawer units have been pulled forward 3/4" so they were flush with the doors and DW?
Next time someone asks what the difference is with frameless cabinets, we owe it to them to show what can go wrong in a worst-case scenario like this.
Casey
I'm very sympathetic.

By posting the multiple problems of your kitchen on this forum, i feel like you are trying to take control of your situation, learning everything you can about the cabinets and proper installation, good for you. Unfortunately, there are so many problems, i think you need someone else to take control for you. You paid a lot of money for a very high end kitchen, i can tell. Why not pay a lawyer to help protect that investment?

Alas, some people are not suers (I've never done it, though have had a few occasions I probably could have), so if you want to find a carpenter that will take on your problems, educate you in the process and fix everything, that could take some time as well, not to mention some cash. Some carpenters are reluctant to fix other peoples problems -- they don't know what they are going to find when they take old stuff out, for example.

I would find good carpenters by asking friends that have used carpenters. or drive by a nice house that is being built, find out who those carpenters are, check references, go inside and see their work. It might even be better to try to find a contractor if you think you will need multiple trades...tiler...electrician, etc.

But Tam184 is right if your dealer is not being receptive (and hopefully you haven't paid them all you owe) then I would walk away from them. if that's the best installer they have in a downturn like this...

Do people really demand total rip-outs of cabinets for these types of problems? Really?

Yes, really.

Here's what your designer/installers have done:

2. Mismeasured the design so badly that they actually removed and rebuilt a whole wall to make it fit, apparently without permit and/or the advice of a structural engineer. And apparently without your OK, either. They can't even tell you if it was a load-bearing wall!

That alone is certainly ample reason to fire a designer and/or contractor, not even to mention your long list of additional errors: Cooktop is installed spanning two cabinets and necessitating modifications to the structural cabinet walls that void your manufacturer's cabinet warranty. Not to mention against code and putting your family in danger.
Installed crown molding so poorly mitered that there is up to .5" of open space between pieces on projecting corners -- installer claims that putty will "hide" this. Outrageously bad workmanship and advice.
Repeatedly misordered shelving/pullouts for entire cabinetry order, blames it on the manufacturer.
Added possibly unnecessary, and certainly unexpected by you, layer of plywood under the soapstone on the island counter. Vague answers on how that ply is going to be properly hidden given you have full-overlay cabinet doors and need clearance there.
Used epoxy grout instead of caulking on changes of plane on countertop and sink, which puts your tile/sink in danger of cracking and damage (already starting to happen).
Damaged dishwasher panel with epoxy grout so badly that brand new panel was necessary.
Installed water-damaged and/or caused water damage to one of two apothecary drawer stacks.
Installed an unspecified number of side panels so poorly that there is physical motion when touched and a .5" gap at the floor, with no baseboard to hide it.

I know there's more, but I haven't read all of your posts.

----
What happens when you write this list up and itemize for each unresolved issue:

--here's what I signed off on.
--here's what I got.
--here's the answer I have received from the dealer.

And then send the letter registered mail to the dealer, the Wood-Mode representative, and the corporate home office? It appears that nobody really has the story straight (possibly including even you), and a clear factual summary of the issues would help everyone involved and eliminate this fingerpointing that is holding you up. Wouldn't hurt to get a lawyer friend to add their weight to the letter, either.

Courage!

Thank you, circus. I can definitely put together my laundry list. That's something I can do.

This whole thing is so discouraging. Thank you for your encouragement.

Should I include to Wood-Mode corporate and the Wood-Mode rep all of the electrical and construction and tiling and grouting issues that aren't specifically a Wood-Mode cabinet manufacturing issue?

I wish I knew more about kitchen design to be able to recognize what the problems are and to know what to ask for to fix it.

Well, hmm: who all was in your house working on it? Did you have a GC and who brought the GC in -- you or the cabinet dealer? If you never hired anyone outside of the contract you signed with the dealer/installer, it seems to me they are indeed responsible for the whole schmear.

You could leave out the electrical stuff, etc, but if it's work that was done by contractors at the behest of your dealer (i.e. moving that wall), I'd definitely include it. I'd also detail the fact that they are charging you extra whenever there is an "error" that's clearly due to their lack of design foresight (the trim to cover the plywood, the additonal pullouts, etc.) -- that verges on actual fraud, as far as I can see, since you already paid for a design plan that includes those things. (But check with a legal friend for specific advice.)

And honestly, Plume, it's not up to you to sweat to come up with solutions -- that's their job, and it's why you paid them whatever whopping amount you already paid them. This is really at the core of why we are all telling you how bad this install team is: under normal circumstances, no homeowner has to do this kind of problem-solving; the installer would simply present a few viable options until they found one the homeowner is comfortable with.

Put your problem-solving brain on hold until you get a response from your dealer on the itemized problems with either "Yes, I can fix that and here's how" or "No, I won't fix that." At which point you'll have more information to work with.

circus - on each of my complaints so far, they have asked me to tell them what I want and they don't offer much in the way of solutions. I have been told I am unreasonable. Example: When I wanted something done about some exposed plywood edge on my surprise beadboard backsplash in my pantry, I was told that the only solution was to paint it. So, they painted it. It looked really bad. I complained. They sanded it and painted it again. It still looks bad. That was the only thing that I discussed with the Wood-Mode rep when he came. My dealer didn't want me to talk with him, but I wondered what he thought of painted plywood like that. Why would a Wood-Mode kitchen have painted but exposed plywood edges. He said that he would make sure that a "piece of scribe" was ordered to cover it. That was the first time I heard the word "scribe." See how cabinet naive I am? Unfortunately, that was 2 months ago and the plywood is still not covered with scribe.

I've since learned that scribe is both a noun and a verb!

The contract was for the whole nine yards including most appliances and countertops and electrical and plumbing and under cabinet lighting et cetera.

I am working on my list now.

plumeriavine - I have nothing to add except to say how sorry I am you're having all these problems. How awful to be wishing and waiting for a beautiful new kitchen and then having this happen. Priscilla

Casey,

Yes, we've installed two farmhouse sinks in frameless cabinets-- two different sizes, two different installations. At least from my experience, the problem isn't the frameless cabinets in poor plumeriavine's kitchen-- sadly, it's the install.

Here's our main sink, a 36" Whitehaus in a 36" sink cabinet. The sink actually sits on the (reinforced) sides of the cabinet. Because the sink is the same width as the cabinet, there was no front or sides to cut out, so we added columns on either side to separate the sink from the dishwashers (one on each side of the sink), and also used a traditional drip rail (stained black to match our countertops). We're still under construction, but the wood trim and columns will be painted the same bright white as the cabinets:

This is our prep sink, a 24" IKEA Domsjo in a 30" cabinet. The sink sits on rails running side to side in the cabinet. Because we did have extra space on the sides of this install, we scribed a door front to fit around the sink, and also installed the dishwasher airswitch there:

Again, two different sinks, two different installation methods, two different trim outs, but both pretty seamless.

I think the problem with plumeriavine's installers is that they got scrambled conceptually with the idea of a farmhouse sink. They didn't realize that the cabinet looks exactly the same as with a traditional install: drawerfront or panel with two doors underneath, all on the same vertical plane, and the sink cabinet should line up with and be on the same vertical plane as the rest of the cabinet run (unless it's deliberately pulled forward as a design choice). Only the sink is forward of the plane.

It could be fixed to an extent by scribing and adding a panel around the sink to bring that part of the cabinet flush with the doors, but unfortunately that won't solve the problem of the cabinet being misaligned with the dishwasher.

It's a bummer you're having problems with your install, plumeriavine-- the cabinets you've chosen are very beautiful! I hope you're able to have it fixed without terribly much aggravation.

OK - I am back to work on fixes, now.

Very encouraged after talking with some people in real life who are savvy.

brickmanhouse - great pics - very helpful!

An overlay panel is definitely the direction I am heading for the cabinet box. I think it is really required for this install.

Question - what do y'all think of putting a drip rail on the overlay panel?

It is such a big flat empty piece of wood.

Another idea - what do y'all think of putting an inkable design on the overlay panel?

Which would be the better way to lean?

Is it better to leave it unadorned?

Hi plumeriavine,

My personal taste runs towards unadorned, but of course you've got lots of options if you want to put something decorative on the panel.

I think, though, that the drip rail isn't something that you can just attach to the panel, without it looking really strange. My photo probably doesn't show it well (I'm not the greatest photographer, and can get some weird angles), but the drip rail isn't trim-- it's a 1" x- board that the the sink actually sits on, and what you see as the "drip rail" is actually the edge of the board.

Here's a photo of another GW'er's gorgeous kitchen that shows it a bit better:

http://s301.photobucket.com/albums/nn62/mamadadapaige/?action=view¤t=brookhavenfarmsink.jpg

I don't mean to dissuade you from doing a drip rail-- you could definitely modify your sink install to have one if you want, and I'm sure it'd be gorgeous. You just have to recognize that it's not just putting a drip rail on the panel-- the drip rail has to be inserted under the sink, and the panel modified to fit around it.

Thanks, brickmanhouse.

I didn't understand that. I get it now.

So, drip rails are actually the platform that supports the sink.

They could be done in brick, or soapstone, or wood, then?

Perhaps that is what Shaws means in the specs by a brick plinth. I couldn't figure that out. Perhaps a brick plinth support would look similar as it might be a platform that the sink rests on, the ends of the bricks sticking out?

What do you think?

Whatever the support, a provision would have to be made for plumbing. Did you make cut-outs in the plank?

plumeriavine,

Exactly right! What you see as the drip rail is the front edge of the wood plank that supports the front of the sink. Mine sticks out beyond the vertical plane of the cabinet doors by about 1/2".

Most of the time I've seen them, they're either done in wood, or in the same material as the countertop. So you could certainly do one from soapstone, wood, granite, or whatever your countertops are.

I don't think it makes sense to do it from brick, though. Our kitchen definitely gets hard use, and we may just be the world's messiest people, but I can tell you that our drip rail functions exactly as intended-- catching drips, sprays, and goop running down the front of the farmhouse sink. Having the drip rail made of a smooth, well-sealed surface makes clean up much easier.

I love brick, but I think it'd probably be impossible to clean up drippy goop from it. I don't have a Shaw's sink, but I can't imagine that's what they mean by a brick plinth in their specs. If somehow it is, Ignore Them. For your own sanity.

As far as plumbing cut outs, you won't need them-- the plank that supports the front is separate from the plank that supports the back. We used a 1 x 8 to rest the front of the sink on, and a 1 x 4 to rest the back of the sink on. So the middle was completely free for plumbing, and no cut-outs were required. I'd imagine your installers could do the exact same thing, leaving you the same degree of flexibility.

I'm so glad you're not discouraged, and can't wait to see how your kitchen turns out!

I actually have a drip rail that we fashioned and attached later, after the sink was installed. Basically just a mitered strip out of the same wood as the cabs. Seems to work pretty well aesthetically, and it does catch drips!

Rather lousy pic from mid-construction prior to putting in the inset doors:

Wow! So much good information and pics!

I am getting a clearer conception of the drip line/ drip rails now.

That gives me food for thought.

There is one other problem that leaves me shaking with confusion and sadness with my particular installation of the sink. My installation drawing shows my sink centered in the window. That was always the intent.

However, my sink was not centered in the window. It is off center by 6 inches.

Since that was another design error, I am, thinking aloud here, wondering what could be done about that while we are rethinking the sink area.

Any ideas?

A dishwasher is to the left of the sink, and then other cabinets. Disturbing those as little at possible would probably be easier for everyone involved.

Didn't you notice it was off center when they were installing it? In any case, if the design showed it centered (and there should be plans with actual measurements) then you are within your rights to demand a tear out and redo of the whole cabinet run.... Let the KDs here chime in, but if the sink is that much off center then I don't think you can move it without redoing the lower cabinets AND the countertop, not to mention the plumbing. IF you are going to remove and reinstall the sink to do this drip rail business then I think your tile countertop is pretty much going to have to be at least partially redone anyway, which might be tricky. Didn't you also show a picture where the sink is inadequately supported - that is a serious issue they need to address.

I feel so bad for you about your kitchen. But honestly I think if you want these things fixed and done according to the original plan and design then you will have to insist on a rip out and redo of the affected areas. Trying to apply these fixes retroactively, is, IMHO, actually going to make it worse.

I still think the cabinets are lovely - really classy. Very best of luck.

buffalotina - The sink cabinet and apothecary drawers were installed much later than everything else. It was put in at the last minute because the original cabinet and apothecary drawers sent from Wood-Mode was damaged beyond use, or at least that is what I was told. The sink and plumbing for the sink was done very quickly. It was all very confusing and there were lots of distractions. The plumbing for the sink and sink was done while the tile man was working. It all happened very quickly in the midst of a distracting and stressful tile project. By the time everything was in place and the dust had cleared, voila, the sink was off center. No one cared.

Maybe someone with more experience would have caught it faster, but during this time, there were lots of distractions, lots of messes, daily continuous problems with the tile man and his helper.

plumer, how awful. Yes I do know how it is when you have more than one trade there at a time and trying to run everything and then things don't come out right because you lose track. Still, if the design showed it centered then you are right to expect it to be once installed. Good luck.

The apothecary drawers are lovely but obviously an inset design. Whose ideas was it to use them? In the end it really doesn't matter because it was the designers job to anticipate the issues and order the necessary materials to create a seamless installation or advise you of the possible issues and suggest alternatives. You and Wood-Mode are sort of left to hear what the other one is saying through the filter of the dealer - I agree it is time to break that circuit and outline what has transpired in a letter (with as much supporting documentation as you have) to the dealer and cc Wood-Mode.

Edgebanding on frameless where doors are stained or painted usually isn't an exact match - you see so little it doesn't need to be and PVC edgebanding is much more durable than if they did a veneer and used the same stain or paint. The front edges of the boxes are not meant to be exposed with frameless cabinetry - something any kitchen designer should know.

Horrible story - much sympathy and best wishes on getting it worked out. I think you are doing a great job of trying to focus on solutions - I'd be a ball of rage or collapsed in a puddle of tears so my hat is off.

There are any number of small or major errors that can occur in a kitchen remodel. If we pros are honest, most of us will admit to having made more than our fair share (not all in the same kitchen!) in our novice or probationary period. We've probably even made some lulu's when we're fully accredited and on our own. Everyone is human and mistakes happen.

Owning up to those mistakes and solving them are what makes a true pro a pro and keeps them in business down the road. Look at Toyota's current recalls and the commercials dealing with the issue. "I'm sorry, we made mistakes. Everything we're doing is focusing on how to fix thosse mistakes and the problems that lead to those mistakes. Don't worry, we're going to take care of you and everything else stops until we've done just that." That is the way to handle errors!

The sheer number and scope of mistakes in this kitchen is brain numbing. I can't even tell you how appalled I am that a "professional" designed and installed this kitchen. I know many DIYers who could do a far better job. Saying that the design/install on this kitchen was "amateur" insults the many talented amateurs that post here on GW. That's my opinion as a KD.

My opinion as a homeowner and TKO is to feel almost physical pain that such lovely cabinets and such a potentially lovely kitchen has been so butchered and that your life has endured such upheaval and discord. Unfortunately, that upheaval and discord is not over. This firm is NOT stepping up to the plate to do actual fixes of the actual problems that are wrong. They are attempting to bandaid everything to death, probably to save them a bit of money, not realizing the ultimate costs of many small fixes are usually worse than the right fix from the beginning. They even rebuilt a whole wall instead of admitting the depth of their mistake, eating a few misordered cabinets caused by that mistake, and starting over in the design department to fix the design errors caused by their mismeasuring. That's a lot of chutzpah!

Plumeriavine, you obviously wanted to choose a design and build firm for the convenience that they would provide in taking care of all of the details because you felt more comfortable with someone else in the "take charge" type of situation. Many busy people choose that route, and it's not a bad one to choose as long as you are OK with spending a bit more money and maybe not quite having as much control over the job as others would like. That's not a "blame" statement on my part to observe this. However, as the project has gone bad, you've continued in the submissive role and let them retain their undeserved leadership of the project. They've lied and damaged your home, and given you empty promises. And, being the nice person you are, you want to believe them, and let them do all they've promised you.

I know it's hard for some people to be aggressive and confrontational. My 86 year ol mom just can't handle the stress and won't even do a store return. She'd rather keep an ill fitting garment than risk the (even polite) confrontation of a return. It's made her life hard, and she's had to depend on others to be her advocate when she was too trusting in some areas. She's of a generation where she was too scared to be called a b-witch rather than step up and speak her preferences and desires. We've come a long way today, but many women still find it difficult to send food back in a restaurant or yell at the paperboy for always putting the paper on the roof.

This is well beyond those minor inconvenience scenarios. It's time for their BS to stop. You're beginning to take charge of the situation by gathering the photographs and information that will give you the knowledge to deal with it. It's a LOT to deal with, that's true! But, take this in the way that it's intended please! Don't wimp out and let them off the hook on this one! There is so much wrong in this kitchen that I personally could never feel confident that it was done safe enough for me to use. If I were the owner here, I'd personally ask for everything to be taken away and a refund given me and start over elsewhere. And it offends me that they've continued to feed you a line of BS and expect to get away with it.

But, I'm not the injured party in this situation. You are. You have to decide if their series of bandaids is acceptable to you. At minimum, for safety reasons, they need to rebuild the island correctly, and correctly support (and center) your sink. That's 2 runs of cabinets that need to be removed, redesigned, reordered, and reinstalled (by someone ELSE!). That's more than half the kitchen. At that point, what have you got to lose?

Look deep, and discover your inner witch. Let her loose! Or, if you aren't comfortable confronting them, get a friend who you feel can help you state your case to them. And, get some legal advice, for sure. FIRST thing, actually.

We're rooting for you here!

well said

Here here LWO!

I might add that you should consider calling up your town inspection department and ask the inspectors to come out and take a look at what's been done vs. what has been logged in. If your walls have been covered and the rough-in inspections for plumbing and electrical haven't been approved, LWO is right in that you would have to remove the walls for inspection.

With the problems you have had, the attitude you've encountered from your designer/installer husband/wife team, blatant lies, and botched repairs, you really should seriously fire them, get a refund, and start with someone else who you trust. And also, if you need answers about your cabinets, you really should call the number I gave you above instead of relying on what your designer is telling you about Wood-Mode. Good luck.

Plum: Just curious what state you're in and how do you know that your dealer is an authorized Woodmode dealer? Are they listed as an authorized dealer on the Woodmode website?

Barb

Thank you all for your support. I've shed a lot of tears and skipped a lot of meals in recent days and weeks.

I've been working on many things today, many things you dear people on GW have suggested.

Keep the ideas coming, people.

It has been a tough realization that I didn't get a Wood-Mode custom kitchen as promised in my contract. We paid custom pricing. We had other Wood-Mode bids.

Once you lose confidence in a designer/contractor, you can't help but to question everything they have said and done.

Question: Do you think it is a much bigger profit for a designer to manipulate cabintry to come up with ways to use stock pieces?
Fillers on runs, off 6 inches here, off 6 inches there, off 5 inches there, deviations from the plans (sketchy as they were and never finalized), metal Blum drawers instead of maple, . . .) I wonder, if you were a designer, for what type of a profit increase might you, personally, be motivated to compromise a customer's project? Hundreds? Thousands? Tens of thousands?

Meanwhile, the good news is that I have talked with LOCAL custom cabinet manufacturers and Wood-Mode competitors who could rip out and re-do my kitchen or fix my kitchen very reasonably and do amazing things to improve it. Wish I had found them before. From some of them, I could have put beautiful new CUSTOM cabinets in my hallways, entertainment center, kitchen, pantry and bathrooms for the price I paid my Wood-Mode dealer.

It is such peace of mind to be able to talk to cabinet people outside the Wood-Mode network who could actually, creatively, solve many of my problems.

Bless their brave hearts for not being scared of the project. They've invested a lot of time in helping me.

I have again contacted Wood-Mode directly. Lots of drawers and doors have real problems with the finish and should already have been replaced. My kitchen was made by Wood-Mode last summer and installed starting in September. There are many cabinets with multiple fractures in the stile to rail joints, lots of doors and drawer faces lack topcoat, and my apothecary drawers have cracked casework. My fridge still does not have panels or handles. Those still need to be fabricated correctly and installed, too. That's just the beginning.

The contractor hubby called today to say that some other sub would be coming next week, the sub that had been due this past Monday and was a no show. I am not clear what the sub is planning to do. . . the "band-aids" or delivery of missing pieces? Or . . . what would you do?

Does anyone know if hinges are selected by the designer or by the cabinet manufacturer? Need to know who to hold accountable for that.

My dealer is a real Wood-Mode authorized dealer with a place of business. For reals. She's not selling counterfeits and she's not selling them second-hand or through a friend. She's bragging that she's moved on to a $200,000 job now.

Funny thing, I did show one of my doors to one Wood-Mode designer at a different showroom and she said it was a "counterfeit" because no one would put a "Brookhaven" finish on a "Wood-Mode" door style. It's not a counterfeit. Wood-Mode confirmed in writing that my kitchen is real and under Wood-Mode, not Brookhaven, warranty. I paid for a "Brookhaven" finish (commonly used on Brookhaven) on a Wood-Mode door style on a frameless box that is AFAIK interchangable for Brookhaven and Wood-Mode. I wanted standard maple interiors and got melamine. I wanted standard maple drawers and got Blum. The end product would have been pretty much identical, just a different door style, if I paid less and bought a Brookhaven kitchen with one or two pieces from Wood-Mode. Heck, I could have gotten maple drawers with Brookhaven, n'est pas? Would the hardware have been different? Not sure of that.

The finish we got, incidentally, did not match the sample we had on hand and expected. More on that another time.

I have a real Wood-Mode order number and have talked to the district rep and to corporate Wood-Mode. This is a legitimate purchase.

I am grateful we had insisted on permits. We were told repeatedly that they didn't want our property taxes to go up so we should do the remodel without permits. They promised to do everything to code without permits. Glad we didn't fall for that. At least there have been some inspections. Gotta figure out how to get things done already.

Another question - - the designer is sending me bills for add on items that were not on written change orders. She claims "verbal agreements" with outrageous pricing - - in some cases 3-4 times what we had discussed but never finalized. What do I do with those?

Additionally, now there is a "sales tax" charge tacked on the end of our bill. Wasn't sales tax included in everything paid to date with the other payments from months ago? Did anyone ever get the sales tax tacked on the end instead of built into the cabinet bills all along?

Additionally, they dropped off an invoice that has "delivered" next to items they never delivered to us. What do I do with that? Any ideas?

That's enough for now. Thanks for reading.

This is crazy! I feel bad for you. Good luck and I hope it all works out.

Ditto on the luck---I've been following your posts off and on and it really sounds like a horrific situation. :(

Honestly, my very uneducated opinion on this is that it is time to stop paying those invoices, period. I would talk with a lawyer and collect documentation of all of the communication and problems---some of this should be specified in the bid, for instance (e.g., cabinet shelves). Hold payment until they have resolved everything to your satisfaction. And I would not have any more subs in until this has all been worked out in writing.

Some folks near us had to do this with a foundation project. The process was incredibly painful---going to court is not fun---but it got them a foundation that was right, versus one that had been tweaked and patched to be closeish. Kitchens are not quite as extreme, but they cost nearly as much. Getting it right will be worth it in the end.

Good luck!!

Three words. Better Business Bureau. File a complaint against the dealer and installer. I had a difference of opinion with Amana on my less than a year old heat pump. I went through all the hoops, my atty. general said get a lawyer. By chance I happened upon a web site one night and filled out a complaint. I didn't expect anything to happen; I thought it was just a check mark against them IF anyone looked them up. Well, long story short, they have agreed to pay my repair bill for the defective heat pump. I don't have the money in my hand yet.........but there will never be another Amana product in my house. File a complaint against EACH company you are unhappy with. There's space to write what happened. And don't think nothing will happen. It took a couple of months for Amana to contact me. Don't let your company try to make you feel guilty. They do that to weasle out of their responsibility. Stand firm. They didn't fulfil their promise to you.

Why do you keep asking 'what do i do with that, what do i do with those.' Many, many people on this forum have told you what to do. talking to the local custom cabient makers is one step in the right direction, but why do you not ask the hubby contractor exactly who he is sending over and what is the scope of work that he will be doing? Why do you not ask the designer wife about the sales tax, about the "delivered" items that weren't delivered? The people on this forum don't know the answers to those questions.

Your kitchen was installed in september?!?!?!?! The longer you wait, the worse it will be to resolve. And I think the more they are taking advantage of you because you are doing nothing to stop them.

so you contacted wood mode, another positive move, but you told us nothing of how they plan to move forward with your problems-- are you just complaining to them and not demanding any action?

do you live with someone? do you have a son, granddaughter, parent near by? Please ask for help just like you do with your virtual friends on this forum, since it seems you are not interested in contacting a lawyer. You can't do this alone.

Needless to say, you will not have their full attention if you keep paying them.

Every time they hand you a bill, hand them a complete and detailed list of fixes that they owe you.

To answer an earlier question, my designer chose the apothecary drawers. We did expect them, but had no idea about them not being compatible with our frameless cabinetry.

I have tried hard to bite my lip on your threads. However, I am just very confused about why you keep asking for advice if you won't take it.

You do not have the typical problem people come on here to ask advice about--a product or install by honest vendors who made some mistakes or overlooked something.

You have been rooked. You continue to be rooked. And yet you refuse to recognize it.

Reading your posts, I feel like someone is sending out messages during a home invasion by gang members and all they want to know is how to repair bullet holes in the drywall.

I suggest you search for grlwprls posts and use her as a model for how to face a situation like this.

Good luck.

Plumeriavine,

I am so sorry you are going through this. I really sympathize with your frustration and I admire you for trying to seek out solutions for the various issues. Some of them are just cosmetic, but many of them are structural and I think it would be good for you to take a step back for a minute and decide if you have the time, energy and experience to determine how to fix each and every problem individually.

I'm not a lawyer, but I used to do a lot of contract work in my former job working with lawyers. I want to caution you that once you start developing and implementing your own solutions, you will begin to muddy the waters between what is you KD/installer's issue and what is a result of the fix you implemented. In simple terms, you're taking joint ownership of the problem. If you agree to a specific fix, they will be able to claim that you authorized it and they may be off the hook. As soon as you take ownership of fixing their mistakes, they will hold you accountable if the fixes don't work.

It's taken them 6 months to do a horrendous job of installing a poorly designed kitchen. Allowing them to continue to butcher your beautiful cabinets and repair them inch by inch, while you do battle to get everything fixed is a long, long road. Even more complicated is trying to document every issue and every fix needed in an attempt to get a financial settlement out of them. Remember, these are just the issues you know of--there are probably more you haven't discovered yet.

I think now is the time to make a firm decision to choose one of the following doors: 1. continue to work with these clowns bandaiding issue after issue, 2. get a thorough evaluation of all the problems by qualified third parties and go to court to get a monetary settlement to complete the job with someone else or 3. have they rip it out, put everything back to where it was and get a full refund.

I don't think #1 is an option-you don't trust them and you will take ownership of the problem. And I honestly think that # 3 is a shorter road than #2. I know that's not what you want to hear, but as many have said, the problems are just too massive to think that you have a chance of catching every issue and developing the correct solution. You paid far too much for those beautiful cabinets to accept a hatchet job of an installation.

Many years ago we watched as a good friend battled with a builder over their dream house experiencing structural issues. They continued to work with the builder, allowing him to implement solution after solution. In the end, they ended up in court and sold the house back to the builder. The whole process took over 5 years. When it was all over, they wished they had just cut loose from the builder when the problems piled up and moved on.

Figure out which option you want to pursue, and put all your energy into that option. If it were me, I'd be headed for door #3.

Progress on this whole matter is slow and painful.

I again thank everyone for their pictures and their support and ideas.

After being ignored for so long, at least the designer is finally acknowledging that there is a problem with the exposed mismatched frameless edge banding and the placement of the flanking drawers and the placement of the sink in relation to the window, and the need to bring everything into the same plane.

I am grateful for that much at least

plumeriavine.....i think you're past being "grateful" for anything these people do. They are not/not doing you a favor. Please. It kills me to see someone who is obviously very sweet, being completely walked all over. If you can't be hard as nails, is there someone you know who can be? THAT is what is needed here. Listen to livewireoak....