I love the fact that the all black kitchen is called 'Manhattan Black'. It would look fine in a converted loft or mid century high rise, but hardly appropriate to a Park Ave. brownstone.

And that might be the real issue, here. When they think of 'Manhattan', they see a certain kind of modern chic. When we think of 'English' kitchen, we imagine a pre-Edwardian house, probably in the country, furnished with a sideboard inherited from great uncle Alyosius and grandmother Honoria's Aga.

The lesson-- if there is one-- is its better if kitchen decor relates to the architecture of the home. You can certainly have an 'English kitchen' [in the American sense] in a brand new house, but if it's going to really work, the house style had better support the look.

And that flies in the face of the 'get what you love!' advice that seems to pop up in every thread.

But the truth is, some things that we love really aren't good for us.

Oruboris,

I agree that it is better if kitchen decor relates to the architecture of the home. I guess I am a stick in the mud as I cringe when I see some combinations.

Teresa

oruboris, your post reveals your own bias therein. When I saw Divamum's post, I too wondered if she was going to point to an Edwardian country kitchen viz. one that American's think of as an "English kitchen" or a "today" kitchen. I was happy to see that she pointed to a whole slew of "today" kitchens.

This is uniquely American concern - this business of trying to read an architecture and then slavishly trying to replicate it everywhere - er sorry, replicate what we think a kitchen accoutered in the now but translated back in time, might look like (even turn of the century kitchens were nothing esp. beauteous and most certainly not "heart of the home" sort of deals). Europeans are comfortable with old homes. Comfortable enough that they are indeed comfortable executing the "get what you love" philosophy.

Divamum, lovely kitchens. I didn't know that Next sold kitchens. It certainly isn't (well, wasn't) obvious that they did, at any rate.

I don't get why you're calling them "real" English kitchens as if other styles of English kitchens are not. It's only one version of an English kitchen as there are several styles of English kitchens. imo, the OP's link shows "modern English kitchens."

I agree Oruboris and Teresa. It's also more pleasing to my eye when the kitchen (or baths, etc) match the architecture of the home. Southern Accents did a home in Bham a few years ago. Old World with a modern European kitchen, saying that's what a lot of homes in Europe do now. It is not something I would want to do in my own home, but to each his own.

Here's a link to the Southern Accents home. You'll need to do the Virtual Tour to see the kitchen.

http://www.southernaccents.com/accents/homes/ideahouses/article/0,15201,734252,00.html

Here is a link that might be useful: More

I had a real English kitchen when I lived in England. It was about 5'x7', and consisted of a "hob" (a two-burner gas range), a small oven, a sink, a tiny under-counter fridge and a wall cabinet as a pantry. Let's just say that meals had to be prepared by ONE person, and quickly, before they succumbed to claustrophobia !

Now my "tiny by US standards" 11'x14' kitchen-in-the-making seems gigantic by comparison !

Mindstorm, I didn't know Next did kitchens either, hence my amused surprise!

Allison, the point here is that what Americans - or at least TKO Americans :) - are thinking of as English Kitchens are unbelievably high end, very expensive and an incredibly small percentage of what's out there - they may be "real" in that they exist, but they certainly are NOT what most people would have in their homes, simply because most people could'nt afford the modern, luxury interpretation of that old-fashioned style and/or feel that it's not "modernised" enough.

The Edwardian Scullery kitchen is something I would associate with Smallbone or one of the other very high-end bespoke kitchen firms, NOT what an average family home would have, hence why I feel it's very exclusive and limited to a very specific socio-economic level rather than a more comprehensive design trend. Don't get me wrong, I think they're quite exquisite, but I don't think they're widespread enough to be thought of as a trend.

The kitchens on the Next site are indeed modernised (they have hot and cold running water, modern appliances and counterspace!) but I wouldn't necessarily call them "modern" in style as much as "current" - note the same ecclecticism we see in the US including farmhouse, Shaker and Scandinavian influences. Interestingly, I've posted links before to B&Q (like Home Depot) and MFI and what they're showing is very similar to what we see is here in the states in terms of trends and to me it's clear that American and Australian influence is showing in British kitchen style and appliances (dishwashers even seem finally to be becoming a more standard item, whereas even 10 years ago they were a HUGE luxury - very expensive to buy - and there were frequently plumbing issues both when installing and running them). I guess there's a sort of exchange across the pond - we perceive updated scullery English Kitchens as glamourous, and urban loft style is seen as the epitome of style there.

The names are funny, aren't they? Here, English names are given to the styles - I see the Greenwich and Canterbury and any other number of English place names popping up; the Next kitchens all have American handles!

Just musings on a quiet Friday evening when stuck home with the flu (too sick to go do anything but wide awake and bored!)

Like I say, I'm really really REALLY bored, so please, don't anybody take this beyond the most banal face value! I just find it interesting.

I went to the listings of a British realtor in an area where I lived for a while - a beautiful semi-rural area filled with many restored homes and cottages - and hunted through the listings and at any pictures of kitchens. This is a historical area in the north of England - quite a few properties in listed buildings, many period (1780-1850) cottages etc.

Anyway, just for fun and because it's interesting (well, to me, anyway!!!):

8'x4'- 1br flat in a converted period building
{{!gwi}}

4br terraced (row) house (GBL145,000)
12'5"x11'1" kitchen dining room (no separate dining room)
{{!gwi}}

Mid-century semi-detached (GBL145,000) (truly hideous kitchen, but I've seen considerably worse....)
{{!gwi}}

Terraced period cottage in high end village community (GBL215,000)
{{!gwi}}

Modern-built 5 br in same high end village (GBL485,000)
{{!gwi}}7BR detached period farmhouse GBL785,000
{{!gwi}}

4br detached farmhouse GBL850,000
{{!gwi}}

Almost makes me wish I was still in England (I am in France now). I think the Next kitchens look great.

I know what Divamum means - when I see "English Style" on the forum I know what style it is - but I have never seen a kitchen in England that looks anything like it (except perhaps in magazines)

But then the difference between "french style" and what french people actually have in their kitchens is even further removed.

Divamum, I see what you mean but they can be done for a lot less than Smallbone, et al. It takes a lot of leg work and with luck one can find a cabinetmaker who could build "the perfect" cabinetry.

We built a European cottage and DH thought I was never going to settle on a cabinetmaker. After going to every showroom in town and talking to numerous custom guys, I ended up having my kitchen cabinetry made in England. Actually, the man I linked above was the one who made them. Even with shipping, the price was less than half of what I was quoted from local custom shops. All pieces are furniture quality and could sit out, along a wall, and be seen as a finished piece.

I agree, I don't think English kitchens are a widespread trend - not just because of price or finding someone who could build them but because it's not a style everyone loves or a style that blend seamlessly into most homes.

Fondantfancy, I have a friend who has an Italian kitchen. It is truly an amazing kitchen but the cost was staggering. Every few months, there is a thread in Decorating about French Country or Tuscan style - always interesting. Most people who have lived and/or traveled to Europe realize the American versions of those are so far removed.

Scroll down to French Gray Island Kitchen for my pictures. You can click to enlarge.

Here is a link that might be useful: My Kitchen

I guess it's no different than when people say they have shaker cabinets and a shaker style kitchen. What we all have is pretty far removed from authentic....

I've always thought of "our" version of the English kitchen as sort of a fairy tale version, like where Cinderella might slave in satin rags with her hair beautifully coifed and never mussed--like the kitchen itself. They are extremely charming (for people who don't mind scrubbing woodwork with toothbrushes or paying someone to do it), and really deserve their own name.

Rosie, your posts always make me smile (and think!).

Looking over those pictures again, what I'm most struck by is how my OWN perceptions have both "grown up" and to some considerable extent been Americanized. When I was between undergrad and grad school I lived in a postwar semi that had a kitchen almost EXACTLY like that pink, blue green and red carpeted horror in the middle. I can't say I "liked" it (I've never liked carpeting, most especially patterned carpeting - despite its ability to hide the dirt!), but I didn't actively shudder when I walked in... which I think I would now! Even with the missing fridge and washer-dryer (which I assume are what the gaps are) I think it's pretty grim!

The amazing thing - compared to the US, anyway - is that that very old-fashioned hodge-podge kitchen wouldn't necessarily be a "fixer upper". Although I never purchased a home in the UK (we simply didn't have the money at the time), I did haunt the listings and my perception of it was that a new/fitted/elegant/modernised/well-equipped kitchen would raise the price, but an "ordinary" one wouldn't actively lower it. And speaking of prices - are those scary or what? When you consider the exchange rate is approximatly 2:1... Whoosh.

Again, just idle musings and ruminations on kitchen "theology". Working through our own kitchen remodel has brought me into contact with a lot of things I've never really seen before and really opened my eyes! I must say, I do have serious Aga-envy, though - a friend of mine picked one up secondhand, moved her kitchen to the basement of her small-but-multilevel terraced house built into the side of a hill (garden level at the back), had it plumbed into her chimney with a back boiler behind it and saved OODLES of money on heating costs! She had a huge and glorious kitchen, actually, including a diswhasher - perhaps no coincidence that she was an Australian.....

Allison: Every time I see your kitchen, I just want to swoon! I can't imagine how wonderful it must be to work/live in a kitchen like that. Sigh.

Agas seem to be installed in English kitchens these days as a status sybol - alot of people never actually cook on them. I recently counted 20 Agas out of 25 kitchens in a (british) magazine. Most of the kitchens were in urban areas and the owners admitted that they did not actually use them.

We are not installing an Aga, partly because the price in France is prohibative and partly becasue they don't make a wood burning version. Instead we are having a French Godin stove installed. Once it is in place it will provide all our heating and hot water for six months of the year. And I fully intend to cook on it.

Divamum: I was one of the expat Brits wondering what an English kitchen meant to others on this forum. Thanks for this thread. Seeing the photos of the kitchens from the north of England brought back lots of memories. And it looks like some of them are framed cabinets, which I thought was only an American thing. I completely agree with all your comments. And who knew Next sold kitchens now!

The last place I lived in the UK was an old cotton mill that had been converted into lofts in the middle of Manchester, and they all had snazzy, very modern kitchens. The comments on this thread about Europeans being happy to put modern-style kitchens in old buildings helps explain to me why there's no way I'd put in a 'traditional' style kitchen in any house I've lived in yet! And it made me think: if you lived in the UK, would you put an Edwardian kitchen in an Edwardian house? A Tudor kitchen in a Tudor house (and only serve pickled meat and eat with your hands!) etc... Thanks.

I like modern kitchens, but I would never put one in my 1920's house. Why? Well because I would be too aware that in 10 to 20 years it would look like a kitchen from the decade in which it was made- dated and tired.

We just ripped out a 1970's kitchen from our 20's house. I have no doubt that in the 70's it was very stylish. It was a real eyesore to us with its slab pine cabinet doors and faux wood paneling, and dropped florescent lighting. Fitting the architectural style of your home is a foolproof way to ensure that you won't end up with a dated look.

I truly believe that whatever the style of your home there are options that will be attractive and functional while also being appropriate if you are willing to do the legwork and research to find them.

Now I guess if you aren't going to stay in the house it might not matter. I have always sought out old houses even when renting because I love them, and I feel obligated to try restore rather than remodel as much as possible.

Thank you, Marthavila. I've been reading your Aga saga - you'll have your dream kitchen soon enough and I know you will enjoy it every day!

I thought Real English kitchens were made up of freestanding furniture. And would love to have the English Cottage kitchen in "The Holiday" movie. Reading this thread caught me off.

Last year there was a reality show on BBC with 4 couples competing in remodeling similar historic town houses. They were given a set amount of money and time in competition with each other. The town houses were stripped down to the framing. All of the remodels evolved into very modern designs...nothing that said English decor to me.

So, English doesn't mean cottage, which is what I continue to think of when referred to.

I have never been to Europe, but I am getting the impression that the trend there is to gut historic buildings and to replace with modern. We are finally going to Europe this spring and are renting an apartment in Barcelona. When looking at apartment rentals I tried really hard to find one that was in an old Gothic building or some other form of early architecture. Some were, but every one had been gutted and remodeled with modern features so that they didn't look old.

Makes me sad.

A few years back, I took DD and DGD with me on a Paris vacation where we rented a 40's era apartment in the 5th. The building and actual apartment had plenty of historic detail. The living room and bedroom furnishings were fairly electic with plenty of antiques and oriental rugs mixed in with modern art, modern paint colors, etc.

The master bathroom was quite small and quite modern -- steam/massage shower only - no bath, and a mini laundry center (washer and dryer). The kitchen was clearly more modern than my 40'ish kitchen back home! Still, the most striking thing to me was its size -- quite small. It was also especially efficient storage-wise. Perhaps because we were there for only 2 weeks, I had no time to fret about what I was "missing." But it seemed to work quite well. Both kitchen and bath had ceilings of natural wood slats- first time I ever had ever seen that-- which I totally adored. The range had a ceramic cooktop -- another new experience for me.

Decodilly: My house was built in 1901 and I'm totally with you on the reasons why you have gravitated to a period style kitchen with your own 1920's era house. Similar to my adoration for Allison's "old style" kitchen, I must tell you that I absolutely love yours as well!

decodilly, you would NOT want to stay in an apartment that was not updated. well, at least not for too long. just think plumbing, having a toilet or running water in the apartment ... or heat ... small conveniences, i know :)

also, as an insight to european mind from someone who lived there for a long time: there is nothing historic about a 1920's house to europeans, it's just a house that's not new. people are used to living in older buildings, most houses there are old. old, but not necessarily historical. just a different mind set.

I think the "modern-look" overseas is a current trend just like 15 years ago it was stripped knotted pine and Victoriana (which I liked actually... because it DID reflect the period of many of the homes it was in).

Actually, I think the way it works is this: if the "original" look has something aesthetic and efficient about it, then people seem to go for modernising it rather than replacing it, ie staying with the same look (this also can be REQUIRED when something is in a historic or listed building). When what was already there was neither aesthetic nor efficient, I think people feel free to do whatever is fashionable and/or appeals to them at the time and/or whatever they interpret as "appropriate to the style of the house". There are some cases where I think keeping the original form and function are NOT helpful, such as in that postwar semi above. The original kitchen - probably not much different from what you see, which looks like it's simply replaced things rather than redesigned it - will have had NOTHING to commend it aesthetically, and nobody should feel remotely guilty not fitting it out with drab postwar make-do-and-mend materials. It's crying out to have a modern, fitted galley kitchen next time somebody does it up, in whatever style floats that owner's boat.

But, in 20 or 30 years, maybe even that postwar dingy style will have historical significance for somebody who will reinterpret it in a modern way - I don't know, maybe that will be the next design trend!

I think because so many homes in the US are newer, it makes sustaining the details of an older home both more satisfying and significant. I know I certainly tend towards reflecting the period of an older home, although I seriously doubt I would feel the same if it were a newer build.

Interesting stuff.

Petra_il - you said exactly what I was trying to... only did it so much better!

I've never lived in Europe, but it wasn't so long ago that a friend's toilet in his Paris third-floor walkup apartment was literally a hole in the floor. Over here we obviously tend to romanticize the past into a fantasy that people who actually live with it can't/won't.

This is a very interesting post indeed. I've always found it confusing too when people referred to an "English" kitchen style. Similar to the way that French dressing is never found in France, and Russian dressing is a surprise to people from Russia etc. Is it marketing that gives us these terms to use?

I once owned a wonderful 1920's house with all the great art deco details and the original kitchen - not something anyone would want to cook in today. Most homeowners are trying to recreate a myth. They don't realize that older kitchens had a sink, stove, small fridge (or ice box) and a table along with a stand alone cabinet for storage. No expanse of fancy countertops, no bank of cabinets and no furniture grade details - just very basic and not comfortable to work in compared to modern kitchens.

Sky

Well you've got me there! I definitely don't want a hole in the floor for a toilet! But... I still don't want a modern minimalist fireplace in an Art Nouveau building! I know, I know, I'm very stubborn! I guess want to see the age of a place while having my bubble-bath!

Thanks Martha! Can't wait to see yours when it's done!

I don't think that the vast majority of Americans who favor "period" style kitchens are trying to copy a particular period down to every nut and bolt. Most of us want/need modern plumbing with up-to-date electric and gas lines, solid floorboards, energy efficient windows, NeverMTs, Tapmasters, cabs with appliance garages and drawers with Blumotion guides and the like. Some of us might even go so far as to want modern pro-grade appliances that only look like they belong to another era or culture. :) The point is merely to capture some key design elements of an architectural era or cognizable style of a referenced culture. I personally know of no one who says they want such an "old world" type kitchen who is caught up in a fantasy about living the way folk did in the olden days.

I am also an ex-pat Brit and, as much as I love contemporary or modern style kitchens, it drives me nuts to see one in a period house, lol.

I do agree, however, that the kitchens in average British homes tend to leave much to be desired by US standards. My family still lives in the Nottingham area and, although the kitchen is a reasonable size, counter space is almost non-exsistent and the cooktop is tiny. The walk-in pantry is a good size, though ;-)

Sky hit the nail on the head. There is no one who is creating a true period kitchen, at least on this site, nor would most want to. Whether or not you match the cabinets to other details in the house is completely up to the owner of the space. There is no prize for creating fake historicity, nor is it nobler or more appropriate than putting a modern kitchen in the old house. Buildings change use over time. Room functions change even within buildings that retain their original usage. Kitchens are changed out, too, often each generation, sometimes sooner (I've seen plenty of functional kitchens ripped out on this site). In Europe, which I don't think anyone has mentioned yet, cabinets and appliances are often not included in the sale of the apartment/house. Each owner will move those things to his or her next spot, and the new owner has a blank canvas to fill. It's a totally different mindset. For my clients, I encourage them to choose door styles (etc) that are respectful in scale and material to other surfaces in the house. There is a lot of room for stylistic variation within that.

You know, I've been thinking about all these interesting responses and, since the thread has been bumped back up, will post one further thought which occurred to me: in general, the average European doesn't have the same kind of "disposable" income as many Americans, and thus things like kitchen remodels on aesthetic grounds are far less common (that's absolutely NOT to say it doesn't happen, but my general feeling is that it happens less). I think people replace on more of an "as needed" basis and, since funds are tighter, aren't necessarily as lavish unless they happen to have those funds available.

I'm very aware that my own spending habits have changed HUGELY since returning to the US and that I'm far more likely to spend on material things. Granted, those things are less costly here in the US, but I think too it's just a general trend here for those things to feel like more of a priority. Or maybe I'm just getting middle aged ;)

Btw, mls99, the area I pulled the examples from (above) isn't a million miles away from Manchester - they were, in fact, all in The Peak District :)

I've found that Europeans don't move as much as Americans so they don't "update" and remodel as much. Suburban European friends of mine built brand new homes in the most updated trends when they got married, and they live in them... and they will live there forever, pretty much. Apartment dwellers who don't own the apartment don't make any changes.
For someone who is the original owner of a hideous 1980s kitchen probably doesn't feel as hideous to the person who actually painstakenly choose out each fixture in the 1980s and paid all that $$$$, LOL. In the US, people tend to remodel when they move into a home and can't stand someone else's horrible taste and decor!

Regarding modern kitchens: they are just popular over there. Just like cherry cabinets and painted ivory cabinets with stone countertops are popular here.