What about a woman who has 20 pairs of shoes? Or thirty hats? Or ten lipsticks? Or has vanity plastic surgery---Botox/enlargements/etc.?

What about people who cockfight chickens---or dogs----or fish?

Some people collect. Some people collect inantimate objects, some live things, some dead things.

Just people being people.

"What about a woman who has 20 pairs of shoes? Or thirty hats? Or ten lipsticks? Or has vanity plastic surgery---Botox/enlargements/etc.?"

I don't understand the relativity to the subject. What animal is killed to make them? Assuming of course you buy ones that don't contain fish scales. Even if they do use the leather, do you think the farmers would waste the money by chucking out the rest of the cow?

No, they would sell the meat also and the hoofs and ears as pet chews.

"What about people who cockfight chickens---or dogs----or fish?"

This is a different subject. One that I don't support either.

"Some people collect. Some people collect inantimate objects, some live things, some dead things."

Like I said, to have a pair of antlers on your mantle, is it was worth taking a life?

Personally, I don't care for trophy hunting either. But if it makes you feel better, the whole animal does get used. Almost all taxidermists, if given the whole animal, will give the meat to local food banks, and the hides get tanned and used, as well. Not that it makes it any better, but just to let you know, the whole animal does get used.

I used to hunt---small game and varmits. I ate the rabbits and squirrels and left the varmits for scavengers. I ceased hunting when I no longer felt the need. But, then I started a much more dangerous and wasteful profession---teaching men to kill. Because, as hunting was necessary, so was training soldiers.

I never felt the need for a trophy---never needed proof I could kill---I know I can.

Do you eat steak? Fish? Turkey at Thanksgiving? You are causing animals to be raised to be killed----at least hunting wild animals allows some to live.

Oh, yeah, I read an article in a magazine several yeasrs ago about a scientist who is studying whether plants feel pain. Hmmmm.

The kill is only a part of hunting, thats why its called hunting & not killing. no one, normally, just walks out and shoots an animal, it takes a great deal of study and work to be successful. Those who condemn hunting are never going to be persuaded what the truth is so there is little sense in bothering to try. But I would choose to see my sons & other young men and girls in the woods and fields rather than in the bars and gang banging and partaking in other fruitless activities.

Hanging the trohy antlers or horns on a wall is a tradition as is taxidermy specimens which are made into various products. If you dont like it, dont do it. When I did hunt I was a tropy hunter as are my sone; we dont harvest at every opportunity, only when the anumal is worthy and the shot can be definite.

A friend just last week harvested a Lion in Africa, last year a Zebra and a couple kinds of antelope, nest year he will be going after dangerous game in a country which is very unstable. Are you aware that without hunting, there would be much less game animals for even the non hunters to enjoy, many animals would no be extinct in Africa; that hunters are the largest contributors to wildlife, their habitat and survival? Without hunters there would be no deer, bobcat,turkey, ducks or geese in Pennsylvania, no doubt the same in many other states too. How much do non hunters contribute to the study of wildlifes needs, to purchase habitat, to make food plots to re introduce species and so on.

Tell me about it. The very first time in my life that I saw a wild turkey was about 10 years ago. Now, they're as common as crows up here. Same with moose. I've only seen about a dozen moose in my lifetime, and all but one or two have been within the last 12 months. We won't even get into the deer population up here. It's to the point where Maine IFW has been loosening restrictions and extending seasons on just about all hunts because the the animal populations have rebounded TOO well.

I have no problem with real hunters or hunting. Guns or no guns, an animal in the wild has a fighting chance in that it can adapt and use its own survival skills. I also believe that people who are genuine hunters have a strong love and respect of the environment and of the animals.

What I do have a huge problem with is "game farms" where animals that are hand fed or zoo/petting zoo rejects are "hunted" by lazy individuals who can't be bothered with the stalking and work-part of hunting. If people who utilize these types of businesses can claim to be hunters than when I open a package of Gordan's Fish Sticks I can declare myself a fisherperson.

My stepdad was a hunter...and I always felt he did it to prove his manhood and exert his power over something.I never agreed with it at all.
He used to feed the squirrels outside and act like he cared about them.Only to hunt them and eat them later.What a hypocrite. I never ate the food he hunted,and I could never bring myself to look at the poor deerhead on the wall either.
If you live out in the boonies or something and have to hunt that is one thing.I could never look a poor animal in the eyes and kill it.
I do eat fish and eat some dairy products,but I'am mostly a vegetarian.

"How much do non hunters contribute to the study of wildlife's needs, to purchase habitat, to make food plots to re introduce species and so on."

A lot. Me for one.

"Tell me about it. The very first time in my life that I saw a wild turkey was about 10 years ago. Now, they're as common as crows up here. Same with moose. I've only seen about a dozen moose in my lifetime, and all but one or two have been within the last 12 months. We won't even get into the deer population up here. It's to the point where Maine IFW has been loosening restrictions and extending seasons on just about all hunts because the the animal populations have rebounded TOO well."

Even though it's unrealistic to want to bring them back, there wouldn't have been this problem if the native predators weren't all but eradicated.

"I have no problem with real hunters or hunting. Guns or no guns, an animal in the wild has a fighting chance in that it can adapt and use its own survival skills. I also believe that people who are genuine hunters have a strong love and respect of the environment and of the animals."

How can you adapt to getting shot???

Plastic garden. I totally agree. This is why I think many people hunt.

"I do eat fish and eat some dairy products,but I'm mostly a vegetarian."

I respect your choices but I do believe in the naturalness of the food chain. Man evolved on an omnivorous diet.

That may sound like I'm condoning hunting but not so. They raise animals just for that purpose. Farm animals. They don't get shot and bleed to death.

"That may sound like I'm condoning hunting but not so. They raise animals just for that purpose. Farm animals. They don't get shot and bleed to death".

How do think farm animals are slaughtered? I am positive they don't all die instantly. And not all wild animals that are hunted "bleed to death". In fact, most good hunters make sure they have a killing shot before attempting to kill an animal. Of course, not all shots are perfect. But even with wild animals killing animals, the prey doesn't die instantly either. Do you think a cougar killing a mule deer does it instantaneously? No, they kill it by slowly suffocating it by crushing the windpipe. It is all relative and therefore you can't make generalizations on how things are killed.

"How can you adapt to getting shot??? "

It is not so easy as going out in the woods and the animal just stands there and takes a bullet. Just ask anyone that hunts. Animals can see you, smell you, and hear you and use all there other instincts to out smart a hunter. And believe me, it isn't easy to hunt. It definitely takes skill, practice, and lots of study on the animal you are trying to hunt. Personally, I think it is the ancestral hunter forager in us humans that is still prevalent in our genes that accounts for why some of us feel the need to hunt. Just like most domestic animals still express behaviors that are ancestral to them.

BN

One of the things I have noticed about anti hunters is that they have also lost most of their sense or capability of self preservation & defense along with their hunting/foraging skills. It doesnt bother me and I dont lobby against them or try to change their habits thru legislation or harassment. I just leave them alone to live as they please. Wonder whay they get a kick out of intruding in the lives of those who maintain and hone their skills.?

So Miz mouse, how is it you contribute to the future & well being of wild life?

ALL of the game lands in Pennsylvania are purchased and maintained by the sale of hunting lisences, not 1 penny from taxes.
The Pittman Robertys act(tax) on outdoor equipment(guns, ammo, et cetera) is directed towards wildlife.
Ducks Unlimited, Whitetails unltd., Pheasants forever, NRA, and most all other hunting organizations are the largest contributers to wildlife. Without the support of sportsmen, there would be little to see in the way of wild animals living in the wild.

There are slobs who kill animals, hardly sportsmen, as in every walk of life. No way around that, but to judge all hunters by their acts is wrong a stupid. Most sportsmen really do have a passion for aniamls in the wild, they have feelings for them and many feel a certain sadness after a harvested animal is approached. But death is a part of life, its a normal and natural kind of thing.

Who is intruding? I for one only said I think it is mean,BECAUSE I LOVE ANIMALS.And I would never do it personally.

"One of the things I have noticed about anti hunters is that they have also lost most of their sense or capability of self preservation & defense along with their hunting/foraging skills"

I dont agree.I have read that humans were mostly meant to be Herbivores,not meat eaters. You can certainly still be "self preserved and have foreaging skills" without resorting to killing.

I wasn't accusing any individual of intruding, just generally speakin. Some antis do actually physicaly intrude on hunters in the field, just plain stupid.
I respect your love for animals, I love them myself. As we mosy likely decend from apes, which are omnivores, we probably have been eating meat since the beginning. If not, then its just evolution that brought us to enjoy meat proteins.

First off, I don't hunt or fish. I don't wear fur or leather. It's a personal decision. I don't believe in killing animals for fashion and I personally have trouble killing anything. Yes, even bugs, snakes and rats. Which when found in my home or on my property we just relocate them.

I also generally never join debates regardig hunting. It is a futile debate as hunting is an engrained part of our country's culture.

I do want to say though, a few years ago my husband and I made a major lifestyle change. If you are against hunting yet still eat meat, please go visit a slaughter house. Or just google it. These animals are born and raised to be killed and usually kept in substandard conditions.

Seriously, who is served more of an injustice? The animal that has lived free its entire life that is one day hunted down, either by animal kingdom predator or human predator. Or the one that lives its life in a cage being raised for food, breeding, eggs, milk, etc. I won't go into a diatribe, but rest assured the conditions are inhumane.

We only consume free range poultry and fish. This Thanksgiving when I purchase my 20 + pound turkey I will purchase a free range, no additives, hormones or perservatives, fresh (not frozen) turkey.

I will only spend $10 more then a regular frozen Honeysuckle or Jennie-O turkey. If you have never hasd a fresh turkey, it is well worth the $10 more based on that merit alone. Yet, in addition I know these birds had better lives.

If you are buying a 'free range' organic turkey for only $10 over what you pay for a 'concentration camp-raised one', I have to wonder what on earth they feed the bird to allow them to sell it that cheaply.

People who grow free-range chickens and turkeys and buy fresh organic feed have a hard time finding buyers. The ones that are actually successful are charging up to $6.50 per pound for the turkeys and believe me, they aren't making much of a profit!

We tried raising meat chickens free range and humanely and found we were making no profit at all even if we could get $2.79 per pound. Gave up on that dream.

The thing that gets me is how people talk about better lives for animals. Granted, starving/mistreating animals is atrocious---but a farm raised cow intended for slaughter is taken care of much better than a wild cow would be. The kicker is that the cow has no frame of reference---they DO NOT KNOW a good life from a bad one. Animals have no power of reason---to determine good from bad---to them, life simply is what it is. Good from bad is totally a human invention.

Wild animals die from several causes---starvation, disease, and preditors---all are painful and slow(relatively speaking) deaths. Death in a slaughter house is much quicker.

I don't have any problem with hunting, and I can't really make a distinction between trophy hunting and hunting for food. In the end, an animal dies. The only objection I could really have would be something to do with the animal, and, if it's okay to kill an animal to eat it, wear it, etc., then it should be okay to kill an animal to put it on your wall. The animal doesn't somehow realize the person who shot it is going to eat it and head off toward the light with that pleasant thought. It's still dead.

If it's okay to kill animals, it's okay to kill animals.

I think it's okay to kill animals. I think it's disgusting to cause unnecessary suffering to any living thing, but I also realize that the definition of the "unnecessary" part is a source of major contention.

As for "free-range", commercially produced poultry...well, it may or may not be better than any other method. The requirements to call your meat "free-range" fall far short of what most backyard chicken owners would consider "free-range". I, for one, love real free-range chicken. It really does taste better. I have not noticed a difference between Purdue and many free-range brands available in stores, though. My chickens were delicious (really...they were 500x better than any grocery store purchase I've ever made). The almost inescapable cruelty common in factory-farming poultry has really put me off chicken, turkey, etc. In fact, the entire time I had chickens (several years), I was a vegetarian unless I was eating my own chickens. It was a little difficult to explain, but it worked for me. I couldn't have afforded to supply anyone with chicken at anything even approaching a reasonable price, though.

I don't have a problem with law abiding hunters.

I certainly understand the stalking, camping, hiking and being outdoors as being very enjoyable. Family bonding too. I don't get the killing part, never have and never will, I use a camera.

I know hunters help pay for wildlife and conservation, that hunters in Africa help the local people with their money. I know that there are too many deer (though if there were more wolves, part of that problem would be cured)

I don't think hunting should be illegal. If people want to hunt that is fine with me as long as they obey the laws.

As long as the biggest, strongest and best animals aren't always killed.

I really don't care for trophies, I'd rather see paintings or photos of live animals but I don't think they are as bad as many other things that people do to animals.

I do worry about my brother in law out there because I know that a lot of hunters do drink and there are newbies who don't know how to handle their guns. I know horses and cows are shot every year as well as people.

I think canned hunts or hunts on private land where the animals semi tame or even really tame are disgusting and should be illegal. There is no sport at all to it. Isn't there even hunting over the internet? Where you can aim and shoot like a video game and the animal is actually killed on the "farm" in Texas?

First. different markets will bear different prices. On average, in my area, you can find a free range, organic turkey for as low as $1.50 - $2.00 per Lb.

Certainly, there are free range organizations that are no good and mistreat their animals. Personally, I research most everything I do and find trusted sources.

My turkey came from Whole Foods Market. Please see the link below to learn more their Farm Animal and Meat Quality Standards.

Here is a link that might be useful: Whole Foods Market

No true free range turkey could be profitably sold at that price!! Yor research will show what it cost in feed alone is more than that, then there are a few other factors weighing in. The govt standard for free range is and open door for ingress and egress.

Why is this in a hunting thread? Ok, I see the above post!

I didn't have time to read all the replies but here we go, one thing that I picked up on right away.

"So Miz mouse, how is it you contribute to the future & well being of wild life?"

Lets see, many years of being a volunteer wildlife rehabilitater.

Working at nature centers that take in injured wildlife that are no longer able to survive on their own. Guess what one of the most common sorts of injuries was? That's right! Gun shot wounds that failed to kill but did maim.

I donate a lot of money to wildlife causes. Not just ones in my own backyard so that I can hunt them. I donate money so that these animals can live and not be hunted. A lot of big game animals are in serious jeopardy from poaching which is hunting.

But maybe I'm still not helping enough.

So I spend a lot more of my money buying native food plants to attract, sustain and house a lot of native animals for my area.

But we non-hunters don't care about wildlife at all!

And butting into other people's business? I'm butting into the animals' business because it's being killed.

Deer I'm not so concerned about. I'm concerned about bear, cougars, bobcats, big horn sheep and other animals that are already in serious jeopardy and yet people still think that it's okay to hunt them down for fun. In the reserves, not even on private property.

sportsmen contribute $54 per second, thats 1.7 BILLION dollars annually towards conservation which pretty much underwrites the protection and management of the wildlife of this nation. They do this primarliy through the self imposed taxes paid on every item used in outdoor sports.

A basic fact is this:
withoout sportsmens dollars the only wildlife to be enjoyed would be in zoos.

I ca best speak of Pennsylvania wildlife as this is where I have spent my 60 years of life. my son is employed by the Pa. game commission and I am friends with WCOs and others who work in the field.
Pa. has an expanding population of Bobcats, they are doing so well there is now a trapping season for them, a limited number of permits are given for their harvest. The Elk herd has grown to the point we have a season for their harvest. the state can only maintain so many of these large animals. Of course the black bear population has expanded so greatly they are now habitaing areas they havent been in for generations. They are harvested in a 3 day season in record numbers and at record weights. turkeys, well they are much like the deer, pests in some areas.
Sportsmens dollars have purchased over 11/2 million acres in Pa., not 1 cent has come from another source. This land is dedicted to wildlife habitat.

Sportmens clubs, local & national, such as Pheasants forever, Ducks Unlimited, The Rocky Mt. Elk Foundation and many more spend millions of dollars and provide many thousands of man hours dedicated to wildlife conservation; without these clubs and their members, there would be little to talk about re: wildlife. there just wouldnt be any. most sportsmen have a great appreciation for wildlife of all forms, they are the true conservationists.

I applaud your personal efforts at aiding wildlife 1 animal at a time. Of course there are many non hunters who appreciate wildlife and are conservationists; these and the American sportng persons are doing a good job. What a pity we have those few slobs who give hunting, fishing and other outdorr activities a bad rap., I hope you are able to tank the sporting community for their efforts to gaurantee wildlifes future. without their efforts, you would be able to spend your rehab time at other endeavors.

"I applaud your personal efforts at aiding wildlife 1 animal at a time."

What are you talking about, 1 at a time? Did I say that it was one at a time because the rehab is LOADED with animals. Hardly one at a time.

The difference between hunter's money and non-hunter's money is that the hunter's money goes to increase the numbers of the animals so that they'll be able to shoot them.

Non-hunters generally want the animals to thrive not for any personal reasons in the end.

And what is the with thread about calling some one stupid???! If you can't have a civil conversation, better to not have one at all.

Are you referring to me calling those who pester armed persons in the woods stupid?? I dunno, sure doesnt seem too smart!

Yeh, I appreciate you might have more than 1 0r 2 injured animals in your care, you normally save them 1 by 1` tho dont you; or do you gather entire flocks, herds and covies?

As is normal with the anti crowd, you miss tyhe whole point. Hunters DO care about wildlife, not only for the means of harvesting. get real. 1 or 2 deer a year and a few upland birds or waterfowl is all most harvest. The real difference in the money is how much more hunters contribute to the effort. How many acres in Pa has the anti hunter bought for wildlife habitat. When do they show up to build habitat, plant food plots, help WCOs in their surveys, and on and on.

"The difference between hunter's money and non-hunter's money is that the hunter's money goes to increase the numbers of the animals so that they'll be able to shoot them."

Ummm....no. And equating poaching with hunting???? I don't think so.

It must be living in PA, because I, too, know lots of nature -loving hunters and no drunken slobs out maiming or slaughtering 100's of animals and leaving them to rot in the woods.

I enjoy eating wild game and I enjoy hunting for wild game to eat. Sometimes I am successful. Sometimes I am not, either through lack of skill or because I get too involved watching to get off a shot *shrug*

Responsible hunters far outnumber irresponsbile hunters. Responsible pet owners far outnumber irresponsible pet owners too. It's not as exciting to read about or even debate responsible hunters or pet owners, so those not in the know focus on the news-worthy and not necessarily the common. I'm too old to try to change someone's mind - I'm content now just to savor my backstrap in peace..

It is true, most conservation money comes from hunters. And what goes on in the meat and dairy industry is what people should be all up in arms about. The suffering of a deer or turkey shot in the woods couldn't hold a candle to the horrors experienced daily by the animals we raise commercially for food.

I wish the fur trade would come back. I think it's a great use of some of these wild animals--especially racoons. There are so many coons around here, it's ridiculous. I live at the edge of scouting camps---almost 1000 acres of woods between the 2 camps. They are so overpopulated that they hire coon hunters, every few years, to thin them out. I'm getting pretty tired of disposing of dead coons who die in the yard!!!!!!!! And we waste taxpayer's money by throwing out rabies packets from airplanes for them to eat. Society has lost its way in all these so-called liberal ideals. A lot of it is fantasy and doesn't work in the real world.

Fur has made somewhat of a come back. i used to trap & hubt coon as a kid and felt lucky some times for $1 per pelt, then some years back they went to 450 and I quit, they go up and down and are now in the $5-$15 range. I just checked thinking I may set a few traps this season and pick up a few extra bucks while lessening the critter problems and scouting for plants to collect come spring.

fur is a renewable resource, a natural product which makes a lot of sense environmentally & practically.

I hope people know that there are millions of livestock animals which ARE raised humanely. Not all are kept under bad connditions. We have produced swine, cattle, sheep and poultry all under good conditions.