-Have you ever tried making the recipe with water instead of whey and seeing if there is a difference?

-Have you tried scalding the whey before using it (92C/180-190F)?

-What is the internal temperature of the bread when you finish baking it? It should be between 195-210-degrees F.

There is a constituent of milk, likely one of the whey proteins, that can decrease the loaf volume and cause it to have a coarse structure. If you scald the whey it denatures the problem protein, and that's why I would scald such a large amount used in a bread recipe. This can also be the cause and effect with a bread recipe with a high percentage of milk in it. I had this same problem when I was trying to develop a high-protein/low-carb bread recipe using a lot of whey-based milk substitute and whey protein isolate, as well as liquid whey from homemade kefir.

You don't say what brand of all-purpose flour you use, but the second thing I would change is to use a high-protein bread flour for the all-purpose flour to increase the gluten since you are using lower-gluten wheat flour and gluten-free millet in the mixture. If your all-purpose flour is one of those that are high-protein like Robin Hood of King Arthur, you wouldn't need a high-protein bread flour.

-Grainlady

Hi Grainlady,

With water, not this particular recipe, but I have tried other millet breads with water. I can't really compare because the proportion of the millet flour was too less.

I'll have to get a thermometer to measure the bread temperature as I don't usually do that.

Regarding Scalding, the whey was leftover from cheese making and was slightly warmer than room temperature when I used it. I've tried using reduced whey for breads but in much smaller quantities like a few tablespoons and diluted as I didn't want the bread to taste too acidic (reduced whey smells so acidic). Do you mean I should mix the flour with hot whey?

The AP Flour is a local brand (http://www.albaker.com/all-purpose-flour.html) and in most major supermarkets I don't see more than 2 brands and we don't get King Arthur her in Dubai.

The protein content is 10% for this one. I've not really found any brand with a higher protein %age for AP flour yet. I also could not find bread flour easily in the local supermarkets and stores.

But thanks for your suggestion, I'll keep looking.

In the meanwhile, I'll share with you a tip I received and could use some advice from you too - let the (1/2 qty) flour and water mixture rest for 10 min (creating a sponge) before mixing in salt, more flour, oil etc, to get a more moist and airy dough. I think it has something to do with the yeast starting to expand early on, or I'm not really sure whats the scientific reasoning here. Any ideas?

And since you have tried a lot of whey breads please help me know, from your experience, why most bread recipes using whey do not recommend a second rise. I was wondering how different would the bread be if I punched down the dough and let it rise once more.

Thanks once again.

I have some whey from cheesemaking I'm saving for 100% whole grain bread, so I'm interested in your question. I think what Grainlady said about scalding the whey wasn't that it needed to be used at temperature, but that it had to reach a certain temperature to combat the protein that interferes with the bread structure.

Question for Grainlady: When the milk has come to a rolling boil and the curds separated with acid, is that sufficient, or does the whey need to be scalded after the curds are removed?

My first reaction to your post, Dessert Gardener, was that you needed more protein. I've spent much of the Summer trying to coax a better rise out of lower protein wheat, and finally gave up and added vital wheat gluten. Do you have no "bread" flours there at all? If you could substitute a white bread flour for the AP, it would help even if it didn't have as much protein as King Arthur.

The protein content listed on American or European style nutrition labels can be misleading to the baker. When rounding is employed, they all clump together, where there really is a difference from one percentage point to the next. Your AP might be closer to cake flour. I looked at the website and didn't see another white flour. Are there any other brands that have a Western style bread flour? If you can't get bread flour, can you get vital wheat gluten? Add 2 tsp. plus 2.5 tsp. of water.

Do you soak your whole grain flour? The whole wheat will absorb the liquid better if you soak it for at least eight hours--just mix the measure of liquid from the recipe and the flour in a bowl and cover. The acid nature of the whey makes it more nutritious in the minerals department too, according to the people who study these things (I'll leave the explanation to Grainlady). I don't know if that applies to the millet or just the wheat, but my recipes say to soak the millet, perhaps just to soften it.

Re the dryness, I think the soaker might help, but it might also be on too high a heat or baked too long. Sometimes it's the oven variance from the author's that's the culprit in these things and dry is because it got dried out. That's why a thermometer is good. I use the kind that's meant for meat--just a dial with a probe--very inexpensive. You could try baking it a little less time (though check the thermometer--it could be gummy if it's underdone) or reduce the temperature 10-15° C.

As to light and airy, as you know, that's not really a big component of whole wheat breads. More gluten will help a lot, but the bran cuts the gluten strands and fights the airiness. I'm sure you can get it lighter and airier. You can add a little more liquid, for instance, maybe 2-3 teaspoons, but don't overdo it.

I've been making these kinds of adjustments to my recipes . It takes some experimentation, but it gets there.

I have started soaking my whole wheat flour also, and it made a big difference. I soaked it in hot water, and the loaf came out much lighter than before. You can put the whole wheat and millet flour in a bowl and then add scalding hot liquid to it and let it stand for an hour or so covered. I had trouble with a certain brand of whole wheat flour until I tried this method. Using hot liquid will speed up the soaking process.

Lars

I really DO think it's the large amount of whey in this recipe that causes the low volume and coarse crumb structure.

The reason I suggested scalding the whey (just as some recipes call for scalded milk - both milk and whey have the same isolated protein that causes this bread problem) is that heating it deactivates the isolated protein in the whey (or milk) that causes the volume and structure problems.

This is especially important when using the large amount of whey used in the recipe. If you were to only use 1/2 c. of whey per loaf (use water for the remaining liquid), it probably wouldn't be a big (or as big) a factor, but I would still scald it first. If you want to change one thing as a test the next time you make this recipe, scald the whey FIRST (and allow to cool before adding it to the recipe).

How to scald the whey: Heat in a saucepan to just under boiling temperature (180-190-degrees F). You will see small bubbles on the edge of the pan. Cool to lukewarm temperature.

If you don't have higher-protein flour available, then you will have to work with what you have available and should be fine. Just don't expect high-rising loaves of bread.

A sponge will help improve the texture and flavor. That rest also allows the gluten in the flour to develop by soaking up the liquid, rather than developing the gluten by manipulation which happens during proper mixing and kneading. A minimum of 30-minutes will work, but the ideal resting time for a sponge, according to "experts", is 2-1/2-hours. I would you make the sponge with the whole wheat flour in the recipe since it will help soften the bran and hydrate the gluten. Those sharp shreds of bran in the flour can actually cut the gluten strands during kneading. I used a sponge method with my 100% whole wheat bread recipe and would allow it to sit 12-hours (or overnight). If I was in a hurry I would only sponge it for 2-1/2-hours.

As to "why most bread recipes using whey do not recommend a second rise", I have never heard that was the case using whey, but there is always something new to learn on the subject of bread making. BUT, about second rises - back when our flour was bromated (a chemical conditioner) bread dough had more extensibility and would be able to perform well with the additional bulk rise, then the final rise after the dough was formed. Today, I would be more concerned whether the yeast would be able to stay active with an additional bulk rise, and I would make sure to use a dough rising bucket (or a straight-sided plastic container with a lid) so you could actually see how much your dough had risen in order to avoid over-proofing. When you press dough into a dough rising bucket and it comes up to the 1-quart line, it has doubled when it reaches the 2-quart line - how simple is that.... You can use an unmarked container (as long as it has enough volume and straight sides) and measure the dough with a ruler, double that amount and mark it on the side of the container to show when it has doubled. Don't let the dough rise OVER double or you will be over-proofing it, and just UNDER double is better - especially if you use two bulk rises.

If you use a slant-sided bowl for proofing dough it will never be accurate because the top is wider than the bottom. If you use the poke it with the finger method to test it, that is ALSO completely unreliable.

The lack of bromated flour is also the reason allowing dough to rise to "double" in bulk is actually allowing it to rise just a little too much. Just under "double" is actually a better choice, especially when using whole wheat flour and a gluten-free flour with all-purpose flour. Those three types of flour just don't have the extensibility needed.

Hope that helps a bit.....

-Grainlady

Add up the volumes of all the flours and grains. Add vital wheat gluten to the flours and whisk in thoroughly before adding any liquids Add one teaspoon or tablespoon vital wheat gluten per cup of flour, whatever it says on the vwg package. Simple and done. Vwg is used for whole grains which are light on protein, relatively. And should lighten the loaf.

I going to bet if the OP can't find high-gluten bread flour in Dubai, I would suspect VWG, suggested by plllog and westsider40, probably isn't to be found either, even though it would probably help increase the loft of the loaf. But that's not the problem, whey is.

I spent more than an hour looking on-line at bread recipes that included at least 2-cups of whey and found at least 10 recipes. I looked carefully at the photos so I could check the crumb and crust textures (I've judged breads at fairs for more than 2 decades and teach bread making classes, have studied the subject for years, and taken classes from bread and grain specialists throughout the years).

Ironically, it didn't matter what shape they baked the bread - free-form or panned, lean dough or enriched, the bread all had the same close, gummy-looking, crumb associated with large quantities of dairy products (milk or whey) and most had a rough, irregular crust. It was interesting how the crumb was consistent between so many different recipes, and I concluded, as I learned long ago from my own bread experiments with whey, the information found in Shirley O. Corriher's "CookWise", sourced information from Oregon State University, and Kansas State University, it's from the large amount of whey in the recipes.

It is also interesting to note how "Whey Bread", is absent from bread book greats such as, Beth Hensperger, Tom Jaine, Jeffrey Hamelman, Peter Reinhart, Jennie Sharpter, Thom Leonard.... When I went through my library of bread books and cookbooks, the only place I found whey in recipes was a few VERY old cookbooks (late nineteenth, early twentieth century), back when they made their own cheese and used the whey in baked goods.

What I'm still searching for is more information about using Acid Whey (vinegar, lemon juice) or Sweet Whey (cultured or with rennet) and how it works in bread making.

-Grainlady

Thanks a lot to all for all the information. I have been reading all answers and doing my own research to understand everything being discussed here, so excuse the delay.

There is a fair chance that my loaf may have been over baked (as pllog suggested) I did bake for quite a bit longer than normal breads or probably the higher whey content may have caused the bread to rise less (as grainlady suggested)?

Pllog & Publickman - I don't soak my wholegrain flours but my next batch will definitely go through a soak. I have now received this advice, from more than a few people and must try. Thanks! I also do recall some of our traditional millet flat bread recipes requiring millet flours to be soaked before preparation. So, I think it should help.

Grainlady - everything I read so far is totally in sync with what you said,

Harper et al (1984) report that heat treatment of whey proteins changes its structure from native, compactly folded, stable structure that is soluble in water to a denatured, unfolded structure with reduced solubility. The native whey protein interferes with gluten development and, therefore, has negative effects in breadmaking. They can adversely affect the viscoelastic properties and baking quality of dough by significantly decreasing water absorption and interfering with formation of the gluten network. The denaturation of whey protein eliminates this negative effect.

Yet, I find it a bit hard to understand why whey would make my bread rise less when (heated) milk actually helps some weak flour breads rise better.

As far as I understood, when I heated the milk (to boiling point) from which the whey was extracted, the serum proteins should have denatured. Right?

Yet, before mixing in the yeast with the whey for the millet bread, I did heat it a little in the microwave to get it warmer.

Now I am going to share with you two white bread recipes with pictures of the bread I baked using it. Would appreciate your feedback.

This is a dinner roll recipe I tried as is (using 10% Protein AP flour) http://cookingshooking.in/pav-buns-recipe-eb/

Yesterday, I tried the same recipe without the milk but using Whey instead and following your advice, (heated the whey (in the microwave again) and diluted it with water using 1 cup in total of the mixture instead of 3/4cup of milk as required by the original recipe.

The ingredients were as follows:

I also used 2&1/2 tsp of AD Yeast instead of 3 as in the original recipe I made, replaced the milk with whey and water and the butter with reduced qty of oil. All other things (ingredients + method) remaining same.

Ingredients of the adjusted recipe

Plain Flour / Maida - 2 Cups

Whey - ½ Cup

Water - ½ Cup

Salt - 1 tsp

Oil - 2 tsp

AD Yeast - 2½ Tsp

Sugar - 1 tsp

Whey & Oil - For Brushing

Oil - for greasing

If you compare the two pictures, you will see that the milk actually helped the volume of the bread (rolls) and probably the rise too.

The whey bread (loaf) only filled half the pan despite the same qty of flour.

My whey bread was slightly on the drier side too as compared to the original milk bread (probably due to lack of butter too) but tasted just fine (better than the milk bread actually), for the first rise, it doubled within an hour but the second rise was slower and the bread rose a bit more in the oven too. Also, the diluted whey crumb was soft enough without the milk too.

quote : …water yields a crusty loaf with a fairly dense crumb while milk gives bread a rich and tender crumb and a softer crust. (http://dinnercoop.cs.cmu.edu/dinnercoop/Recipes/breadtips.html)

I wonder what actually happened. Also wondering how the bread would turn out if I used all whey instead of water diluted whey.

add up the volumes of flours and grains...

Here is a link that might be useful: FLOURS AND GRAINS TYPES