garden60, yes it is a scary thing thinking that our sons will be away from us so long that they will quit caring. I know this is what my dil hopes will happen, I only hope she doesn't succeed or isn't right. Since my son is planning on a family soon, it will be very interesting to see how she handles a baby getting all the attention in place of her. Being narcisstic, this is going to be quite a roller coaster ride for my son I think, who naturally will have most to all of his attention on a new baby. I'm still hoping she doesn't get pregnant right away, and that there is time for him to come to his senses. I'm not even saying he has to leave her, but learn to deal with her control issues and put his foot down about continuing his relationship with his own family. I've heard that people with personality disorders can be dealt with (tho very difficult) once one recognizes the problem. There are many places on the net that give advice to someone learning to deal with this disorder. I know my sons loves her very much, so if he could just learn to control her (and not in the sense that she is controlling him,) then I think things could work out for all of us. However, she is very difficult and so controlling. Cornflakes, I am so glad to hear that you found a new therapist and your working on your anxiety issue. Since anxiety and depression usually go hand in hand, there is a good chance that your anxiety was causing the depression. Good luck in quitting your medication. I think your husband and mine are pretty typical of male reactions to such an estrangement. They are not as outwardly emotional, therefore they keep things in and I believe do get angry instead. However I know my hubby misses our son very much, and wishes he would get his wits about him. Who knows. I can't imagine finding your mother the way you did, but you need to trust the dr. and what he is telling you. I am sure you mom did not suffer, she had already died, which lead to her collapse. I agree we can move on from the deaths easier, and it has been stated as such in many of the books I've read. It is the fact that our loved one has chosen to not be with us, where as in death, almost no one makes that choice. It is a pain deeper then anyone can imagine (except those of us going through it) each day realizing we are still not reunited with our child. Thinking each day that anything could happen, and we may not be here for them. Realizing taht they don't understand this, or are ignoring the possibility. Our children are gambling with the future, and it could be a very high price they pay should they lose. Cindijf, I too feel very badly for your situation. Since your daughter is so young, I still hold out much hope that she will mature and realize what she is doing is not right. Your daughter still has many growing pains to experience, and I believe in time, those pains will teach her what she is too young to realize right now. Keep the hope, as I believe she will be back.

Lostmama, I completely agree with garden60! Don't call, write, etc. since he won't reply and it will jab that knife down even deeper into the wound. I reached out 3-4 times to my son, and yet he told me he wanted no contact, nothing. Finally in February I quit trying. I'm still pretty miserable, but I am getting better. I'm very involved in my younger sons life right now, which helps a great deal. I have my garden and pond to attend to regularly, which is a great stress reliever. I haven't posted on hear yet that I have heard from my son. My son called me yesterday, and left a message. I truly didn't think he would respond to my request for him to call us when he was back in the country (in the birthday card I sent him, which was only sent because he did send me a mother's day card stating 'we could now call him.') I figured that after I put the ball back in his court to call us, that he would make us wait a few weeks to show us who is boss. Anyway, he called and left a message on our house phone as I was busy in the yard. I called him back and got his v mail (on his cell phone, not home!) My son called relatively soon after my message. We had a cordial, but awkward conversation. My son was pleasant, and asked about his dad's skin cancer. I was very low key, sounding laid back, happy to hear from him, but not bubbling over. We talked about his upcoming trip to Italy, his trip to Mexico for his job, about a visit to the cardiologist for high blood pressure (gee, I wonder why?)whether he got my card for his b-day, etc. He thanked me for the b-day card. I told him about my garden and pond, suggested he have a home tester for his blood pressure (even though all his tests came out normal, and his blood pressure has gone back down.) I could hear my dil in the background putting dishes away, or at least I believe it was her since we know men can't multi task :) My son told me after about 10 minutes that he should get going so he could help his wife with dinner. I said ok, and told him I loved him. This is where it got interesting. There was a distinct hesitation before he responded that he loved me too. At first I thought I was being paranoid thinking that he didn't want to tell me he loved me in front of my dil, but now I know that that is what had to be true. Two people I've told that to (my hubby and a very good friend,) both stated that that is why he hesitated, even before I could tell them what my opinion was. So what, this girl won't allow him to say he loves me in front of her? Boy if that's the case, I bet he caught all heck once he hung up the phone. I guess i have to be happy that he felt he needed to say it back to me, regardless of whether she was there or not. Maybe that's a positive sign of things to come.....eventually! I didn't say anything to him regarding calling again, when I'd see him, nothing, zilch, zero!! He didn't say anything to me in that regard either. I also let him wonder whether his dad was home and not talking to him, or that his dad was out of town on business. I felt that if he wanted to know where his dad was, he should ask. Let him think his dad doesn't want to talk to him, afterall, he has it coming. I know that sounds mean, but I've reached a point that he gets what he gives, and he has given so much hurt in the last 4 years that I am amazed I've survived. I've finally reached a point where I don't expect to see him. It's truly amazing. I go out to do my thing outside, and some days I'm not even thinking of him until later in the day. This is a huge improvement. I no longer expect him to walk up behind me, put his arm on my shoulder and tell me how much he loves me, and how wrong he has been. I guess I tired of that fantasy...it just hurt too much knowing it would never happen. Lostmama, Garden60 and sarahsmom, we all have major head cases as dil's that have poisoned our sons minds with lies and emotional abuse. It is so hurtful to think that the boys we loved could reach a point where they could be turned against us, but I guess we can't ever underestimate the power of evil women over nice guys. What's that old saying, 'nice guys finish last.' I really don't believe that, but I do think there is a lot to be said for it's meaning, all the same. I do think we may have our sons back someday, in a way that is similar to what they once were. It is going to be a long time coming, but something's gotta give at some point. Boys take a long time to really become men, and some much longer then others. Our boys found love, and think that the only way to keep it is by obeying their girls every demand. I think most will reach a point that they tire of having to behave exactly how she tells them to. I only wish that time was sooner, then later. Still, I do have a smidgen of hope now. However, I have no delusions that my dil will be any different. My husband and I have already made an agreement that we will never be mistreated by her/them again. If they can't love and accept us for who we are, then they can be out of our lives. We are not bad, awful people. We raised our kids with nothing but love, support, kindness and being there. We don't deserve the over dramatization of every single thing we do or say. I will be me, and my husband will be himself, and if we say something that she finds offense with, so be it. I'm done groveling. I swear I will never be taken advantage like that ever again. We've agreed to keep each other in check in case one of us slips up. Afterall, we are nice people, we do not think the way our dil does, so it would be easy to slip up. I'm so tired of caring right now, I have truly reached a point where I can say good riddens (at least for the most part.) anniebal

I also stated just those words when my 5 children were small. My oldest was only 14 at the time and I was speaking with a neighbor and she told me she had not had contact with one of her son's for years. I was genuinely shocked. I did not know of such a horrific thing. Could that truly be? Nah, would never happen to me and my kids, NEVER. My eyes teared up as she spoke as I thought of my 3 sons and 2 daughters in a situation like that. I would just stop living and die for sure. Well, funny thing is life. My oldest son is now 27 in August and I have not had any contact with him since Sept. 26.2009. Almost 6 years. Guess what? I was right, I did die. My youngest son say's that mom must of died when West left. He saw it all, they all did. I did not cope well. I still have days and nights that are endless and unbearable. I can be strong for so long and not even think of him for months then a song on the radio or a tv show he liked, or one of my kids asks for me to cook a recipe that was his favorite and Im shattered like the day he left. I hope people do not judge, but yield to the notion that it can happen to anyone. Any parent. He was the one I always had time for, the one I watched sleep in his crib for 2 years just to look upon him. So beloved. My favorite person on this Earth. Even today. My good friend. I was shocked when I stumbled upon this thread. Each post speaks from my mouth, each tear falls from my eye. We are the same broken mommy. I will say, the one technique that saved me and my other children is Shunning. It is the only way. I stole or borrowed it I should say from the Jehovah's Witness neighbor that I have few homes down. It works for me. I feared all these years of my reaction to him coming back, calling , writing, bumping into him in public. I feared that my mommy instinct would be my downfall . I felt vulnerable and I did not want my family put through anymore of my sons psychopathy. I will never be a victim again. Shunning keeps everyone safe emotionally and physically for it will not allow me to respond to anything in any way. It is the only way. I worry that my love for him would leave me open to danger and to fall for his smooth ways just to be harmed in some way or my kids. Just cannot give him the benefit of the doubt ever. SHUNNING. I can sleep at night now. Less and less I think of him and those incredible 21 years I had in his presence. He is fading away now in my mind. We do not speak his name. Removed all photos and items of his. It feels like I never had that one child almost. It feels better this way, so odd but true. I could give a long story, but this is long enough. Just wanted to say I did not know so many mom's go through this crap too. And this is some crap boy, It rips you in half and you die. But through shunning, I have a hopeful future ahead, me and my 4 other children who love me and need me and don't want their brother to ever come back. they say "I miss Weston, but I don't miss all the stuff". The stuff, gosh there was A LOT of stuff. I tell them..."me too".

Hello Dave, Sage and everyone, Sage, my mother and father behaved the same--my mother would tell me (I think she did the same to my sisters) how terrible we were as children. She would tell me that I was horrible and a brat. She would complain about how awful I behaved. They gave me nicknames such as bratty_____. I think she just felt deficient and turned it all around and put it all back on me. My sisters claimed that I was favored and both poured forth their resentment towards me in abundance. Both told me that they felt I was a "f***ing spoiled brat. One told me that I deserved to get slapped and hit. She said this after I tried (many times) to tell her part of the reasons why I am not close to my oldest sister, why I feel distant and wary of her. She hit and slapped me across the face and had a very explosive rageful temper. It was like dealing with a type of jekyll & hyde type of person. I never felt comfortable or safe around her. I've tried several times to talk to them about how it feels to be on the receiving end of their behaviors and what it did to the relationship. They cannot hear my emotional pain, dismiss my feelings as "too sensitive" or dismiss me as mentally ill, etc. All it does is that they twist what I say, make excuses or turn it into all about themselves. It is always about them. They don't ever take any personal responsibility for anything. They cannot connect to my feelings or emotions as it is all about them. Connecting to my emotions for them means that they talk about themselves, or try to deny my reality and tell me how I should respond and feel. They always try to fix me. Apparently they feel that I'm broken and a big disappointment. They cannot feel good about themselves unless they poison the relationship with belittling or criticizing me. That have to feel one-up all the time. They were physically abusive and emotionally abusive. They all slapped me in the face, hit, whipped, shook me, or pinned me to the wall, except the middle sister (who is also older than me). According to them I deserved it, because I was horrible or a brat, etc. I have a scar on my chin and I was told by my eldest sister that my father hit me when I was a toddler and it split my chin open. They had to rush me to a hospital. She also told me that I wasn't wanted as a baby and child. She said that my father didn't want another child and so he apparently was abusive to our mother while she was pregnant, because he resented her being pregnant with me. Later, when I asked my mother about the situation her response was to say that my eldest sister was the one who didn't want me around. She said that she didn't want me. Can you imagine how hurtful it was to hear all of this. Another time when I was just a kid (maybe 5 or 6), I put a pill up my nose (kids do silly things). My father told me to hold my nostril and blow to get it out and then he really thumped me in the head (which really hurt) and when I started to cry, all he did was laugh about it. Another time he was cruelly teasing me at the dinner table and my sisters and mother were present, I kept telling him to stop and he wouldn't. I started crying and left the table and all he said was that it was good sensitivity training. My mother didn't do anything. She never intervened while he bullied and abused me. My sisters just watched and learned from his expert instruction. They are emotional bullies. The only person who didn't hit me was my middle sister (or I can't recall), but she let me take the heat for her and didn't speak up when I got punished for something that she did. The way she assaults is through her words and actions, but she doesn't assault me physically. She makes huge issues about gifts. Actually both of my sisters do. Apparently the eldest felt ripped off because she felt she was more generous financially giving me gifts, than I was with her. The other flew into a hissy fit because I didn't send a thank you note right away--I sent it within a month's time frame. Apparently she didn't either get it or she had a very rigid time frame (less than a month) or it was unacceptable. She sent letters loaded with sarcasm (her special brand of cruelty). Dave, I can relate to what you said also about the sadness you felt as a child. You mother demonstrated a complete lack of empathy for you and once again turned it into all about her. Her focus was all about herself and still is. I experience my mother as similar, although as I got older I filled the role of being empathetic towards her, so she felt closer to me than my sisters, because I finally had a use for her--I was no longer the horrible toddler/child that she had to put up with. Now I could listen to all of her problems and be her therapist. I've found myself in this role with many women. I think my mother-in-law may have had NPD or she was just a narcissist. My own mother I experienced as emotionally unavailable, and I think she did have a personality disorder, but I don't think her problem was NPD. She's been diagnosed with something else, which I may talk about at a later date. Well, I've written enough for today... Flower