Hi Sarah;

I'm like you and want every little inch out of my kitchen, so I can fully appreciate your two feet.

I checked the archives of my old mothers' club (in the San Francisco Bay Area) and found this summary about why people were unhappy with their choice to install two units:

"a. there is a safety mechanism built into the unit so that if you are
running too many appliances (say a washer and dish washer or three
showers at that same time) the unit shuts off in order to prevent over
heating. While this is easy to fix (you just have to go to the unit
and switch it back on), it seems to always happen at the most
in-opportune time (6am shower seems to be always the case), and so it
was a big headache. The family that I spoke to ended up putting in a
unit at the point of use because they were tired of having this
happen. They were currently contemplating adding more flash units at
other points of use where this was a problem.

b. cost. Like us, they had to re-pipe for the gas line from the PG&E's
source to our gas meter for the water heater since their current line
was not sufficient. They had to dig up a significant part of their
yard. To add insult to injury, there was quite a bit of cost putting
the front yard back together again (over 10K?) because of the damage
that was done by the PG&E workers to their landscaping. BTW, most
city's code requires that you also have a dedicated gas line from your
meter to the flash water heater. Your plumber will able to do this,
but count on quite a bit of work if this needs to be routed to a hard
to reach place.

c. The return on investment is not so great. It would take years to
make this worth while, especially given the cost of the water heater
unit and the plumbing work. This is true if you didn't have the
additional gas pipe problem.

d. This family thought that they should have just stick with old
school given the delay in their remodel (by several months) and the
additional costs for the PG&E work and the repair to their landscape."

No one can determine how to spend your money, so at the end of your day only you can decide if it's worth it to spend the money for the tankless to gain those two feet .... But I do wonder if it wouldn't be a happier use of the money to get your heart-stopping range. ??? Wish I had a definitive answer for you!

Good luck!

Reason for not putting water heater in garage is that there is no direct access to garage and it would take too long for the hot water to travel to the kitchen and the master bathroom. The house is a split level but reads like a long ranch house, with about 1/3 of the right side sitting on top of the garage. The kitchen and master bath are in the left 2/3 of the house.

I've always had the water heater in the garage in our last 2 houses, but we've had issues with it taking a very long time to get hot water to the master. I think it was in a closet in the carport at the house where I grew up.

I suppose we could build a little water heater shed on the side of the house where the water/gas/electric boxes are and put the water heater in there. Has anyone else done this? Can I see your water heater shed?

Maybe I need to talk to the water heater guys again to see what that would cost. I would really prefer to get the water heater out of the kitchen if possible. That space will give me landing space next to the fridge (novel concept). Just don't want to dedicate half my kitchen reno budget to getting it done.

lightlystarched, I don't know where you live but I have never heard an estimate for installing a tankless unit for only $1500. The units themselves cost about $900 around here (Rinnai). Also, we have been told that we need two units to give us enough water pressure for the three bathrooms, laundry and kitchen. We were told we need to fur out the wall to recess the units because if they are outside they are less efficient.

Well, I guess you get that LaCanche after all! I think it was meant to be.

Running the water from garage to master bedroom in a long house can be pretty bad for heatup time, and we don't like to do that in CA. I guess you should get a few different plumbers to stop by and offer wild ideas, and then rethink your floorplan. It's a lot of space to give up, but maybe with some creativity we can get it somewhere less offensive, but still in the kitchen.

Sarah,

I understand the issues with the hot water heater being in the garage and the long run upstairs. I also have a split level. However, this would solve the issue of removing it from your kitchen to gain more cabinet space. As far as the distance and instant hot water, that can be easily and cheaply handled by having the plumber install a recirculating pump This also saves $$$ since you don't have to waste the water running until it heats up because of the distance.

This is what I would do. Put those $$$ savings into the kitchen.

We have an inconveniently placed hot water heater that interferes with the flow of foot traffic from the garage, into the kitchen. After thinking about it for a long time, I'm on the cusp of having a solar hot water system put in (with an electric backup) that would remove this obstacle.

Right now is a great time to jump on the solar hot water heating bandwagon. In San Diego there is a $1500 govt subsidy in addition to the $2000 federal tax credit. I was recently quoted around $4500 to install this system in my home. Once taxes are sorted out this will only cost about $3k. With the subsidies and credits, the pay back period where the savings pay for the upfront costs is dramatically reduced.

But for me at least, the real benefit of the system is getting the tank out of my way.

Also, we will install one of those Laing autocirc hot water recirculation pumps to eliminate our current hot water delay concerns that you seem to have as well. The common pitfall of this type of a system is the constant demand placed on the heater; not a problem if you go solar.

I re-read your post and I guess one of the other issues is access. Is the wall separating the KIT and DR over the garage? How much further would you have to go? May be worth it to do a small amount of demo in the adjoining room to get the pipes downstairs into the garage.

Very interesting mungo. Had not thought about solar, but I like the idea. I wonder how effecient solar would be in OC. It tends to be pretty grey/overcast an awful lot around here. Where can I learn more about it?

Todds, the garage is nowhere near the kitchen and dining room. It is below the two kids bedrooms only. The wall dividing the kitchen and dining room is (as far as we can tell) nothing more than a dividing wall. The water heater is up against the wall hiding the kitchen from the living room.

Here's the floorplan sans master bedroom which is on the far end behind the kitchen/living room.
Floorplan

Here is a link to the place who administers the local subsidy. They have a list of companies who they have certified: http://www.sdenergy.org/index.asp

My suspicion is that anything in the southern US gets enough sun. The more north you are, the more the panels have to be tilted in the southerly direction. Being in a climate where there isn't a "freeze condition" also makes the whole system less complicated.

SD Tribune has had a few stories on the program -- you can search their site. www.signonsandiego.com

Hope that helps!

Mungo, did the Federal Gov't renew the tax credit for solar and other energy saving items? I know that the previous one expired 12/31/07.

A lot of the tax credits did expire at the end of 2007, but not the residential solar hot water one. I have spent a lot of time researching this. The folks at that non-profit place I mentioned before can confirm this.

Sarah, I went to the Rinnai website- the units are significantly smaller than a regular water heater- the one I clicked on measured only 9"D x 18"W x 24" H.

Why couldn't you install two of those undercabinet (this high output unit has a feature allowing two to be connected if you needed greater capacity)- hook up to the pipes already there and at 24" high, you could still have plenty of room for pipes, clearance and a countertop for your fridge landing area.

MSRP on that unit was $2011.

My brother, who researches everything to death, has tankless water heaters in his home.

Here is a link that might be useful: Tankless hot water heater

We moved our water heater out of the kitchen in our remodel, and I'm so glad we did. I wanted that space. We put it in the garage, which sits in front of the house (many houses in SoCal sit partially behind their garages). The kitchen is in the back of the house, the second floor master is at the front of the house. Honestly, the time difference in reaching temp isn't greatly discernable or inconvenient -- we had to run the water anyway when the heater was in the kitchen, it was never "instant." Much more noticeable now is the new pantry (added a foot and a half to the space, so the pantry is 40" wide) and no longer in kitchen view is the ugly screened door that housed the heater. We've had no regrets.

I am in Phoenix. The water heater was 1200, installation (including a new 1" gas line from the meter to the w/h) was 600. The unit can be recessed into a wall, but because I have block walls, GC & plumber decided to just mount it to the outside wall. It sticks out about 10" from the wall and is very compact. Since there is no venting issues it makes installation very inexpensive. Venting a water heater indoors is costly. I would love to show you a picture... I'll have to take one with a trusty disposable camera and scan it later.

What about moving it over a couple of feet & into the dining room? Looks like there is a closet there in the DR...

Pecanpie, our venting/plumbing for the water heater is through the ceiling/attic space. Not sure how that would affect the Rinnai, but we would need at least 48" of wall space somewhere to put in two units. Right now, the water heater only takes up 24". Here's a pic:

WH There's a drawer underneath the heater. From what I understand this is out of code -- there's supposed to be a vent underneath as well as on top.

Oofasis, we're in So. Cal. Because of the way our house is situated on the hillside, the third level of the house sits on top of the garage, while the second level is both behind and to the left of the garage. I do want the space in the kitchen, but the price is pretty steep.

Lightlystarched, I grew up in Tucson and lived in Phoenix for a while, too. My family still lives in Tucson. I'll check around some more (maybe I was just getting the "lady" quote), but I'm fairly certain that my So.Cal. cost and your Phoenix cost are going to be very different for the same installation.

ci_lantro -- I can't believe I didn't think of that! [slapping forhead]. I've been so concerned about keeping it in its current location, I didn't even think about scooting it down and making it look like a closet! I'll play with that and see how it works. No idea what it will cost to move the venting over 3 feet. I was planning on a dish hutch in that section of the wall, but I could put the dish hutch where the water heater is now, I suppose. Hmmm.

If you have a place outside that can take a water heater shed where it won't look hideous that's always an option, but making it look anything but functional would cost bucks. I have one behind my studio which is especially ugly :)

But for $20,000 to $50,000 you could put in a solar system with a tank on the roof!

Keep the water heater where it is and work around it, or slide it a la ci_lantro if that works better and is price appropriate.

Water heaters are good. I just got a new one Monday :) No hot water during the coldest weekend of Winter is bad. Hot water is good. Keep your water heater. Have hot water.

Thanks, pllog! I agree. Hot water is good. Had a power outage last year at the previous house. Lasted for several days. I worked from home. No WAY I was going to work without a hot shower and clean hair. I am not a cold shower kinda girl.

Sarah, our hot water heater butts into our kitchen occupies a 27" x 27" area. We chose to work around it. However, ours was in a corner that had walls on either side of it. I kinda regret moving it because it would have given us more layout options, but to be honest, the layout we went with would not have been possible without the bump there. And we do love our layout.... The bump is almost completely hidden except for a 3" full height portion painted our wall color. We call it our accent stripe.

For 15-20K, I would slap a pretty door on it and make it look like a pantry. However, looking at you layout, if you could get it to shift or shrink, you'd have a lot more options.

It's very awkwardly placed, that's for sure. Right now, it's disguised as a pantry, so it's not ugly, but it's right next to the pantry cab, and all of our snacks and cereals go stale very quickly. I assume that is related because we never had that problem in our previous house.

If it were me, I'd put the heater in the garage, and then install a recirculating pump to ensure quick hot water.

Also I agree the 15K-20K option is just insane.

I had really bad expereiences with three different tankless water heaters and swore I would never have one. They may have improved them a lot in three years and they may have been bottom-of-the-line (rental property) or they may have needed adjustment. I just know I didn't like leaping out of the shower to wait for the warm water to come back, lol.

We have a hot water heater (gas) in the attic in the eaves. Works fine. It sits in a deeper than normal pan and serves three bathrooms upstairs.

Here is a photo of a little build-out we had done on the rear of the house in a little utility area. (A few hundred dollars of carpentry. They had to match the really old non-standard siding.) Doesn't look great, but is not seen unless you walk all the way around the back. Like you, I was not willing to give up any counter space or kitchen real estate. This little box houses a warming drawer and gas log fireplace in the kitchen.

So I just responded on your other thread about switching dining and kitchen. What I'm wondering is could you move the water heater to the corner of the kitchen instead and have a door to it from the hallway. This way you don't have the stupid corner that is hard to actually get good use of in the kitchen and the cost of moving it there should be much less than anything you are talking about here.

You might want to reconsider putting the water heater in the attic. I had the same concerns about catching leaks early.

The plumber can install a pan under the water heater and route the drain pipe outside. Any water that leaks from the heater will simply drain outside. You just have to check the drain outlet periodically for drips.

Mooring girl, if we had a decent attic, I would definitely rethink the attic space, but it's a teeny tiny crawl space filled with bugs, spiders, cobwebs, ducts, and (coming soon to a freezing cold house near me!) insulation. Tain't no way I'm climbing up there to check a drain for drips. Not gonna happen.

If you have attic directly over the kitchen & dining room, you might be able to move the WH & still use the existing vent through the roof by using elbows in the venting.

There's no attic over the dining room (the ceiling is vaulted) and since we're opening up the two rooms together, we were planning to vault the kitchen, too.

{{!gwi}}
Rinnai tankless hot water system installed on the outside of the house - self vents.

bmorepanic -- the quote I received was for installation of 2 rinnai tankless water heaters installed on the exterior of the house.

BTW, mungo -- I looked at the solar water heater systems (definitely intrigued) but they all require a storage tank; some even use two tanks. So while they are definitely neat, and if the tank wasn't an issue, it won't work to eliminate an inconvenient tank.

Seems like the same old kitchen design issue I run into with almost any room...."If only I had just 2 more feet..." There's never enough, and there are always limitations. If it were me, and it couldn't be moved easily to a more convenient location nearby, I'd just consider the room that much smaller. It sounds like maybe you have to decide between/prioritize things like pantries, hutches, sliding glass doors, and beverage centers. Something may have to give. But $20K for 2 ft? You could do SO MUCH of your kitchen with that amount. I wouldn't consider it, or any major expenditure (over a thousand or two) for what you're gaining. But I'm frugal and terminally practical.

I also am frugal and terminally practical, which is probably why my list of Wants vs. my budget vs. my layout has stymied me for so long. What did you mean by a modified U layout?

One question, your kitchen level is raised about 4' from the living room, so what is under the kitchen? I know you said no basement but isn't there a crawlspace?

Modified U: the U layout didn't have any door, just windows. I was wondering if you could manage some sort of happy medium by keeping most of the U plan's counters for more storage and work surface, and possibly better zones, but also fit in a smaller door to keep the backyard access. So instead of all or nothing...wide sliders or no door at all, have a narrower door. As I said, I'd have to search back for your plans to see if that would be at all feasible or helpful.

Todds, there is an unfinished (no foundation, just dirt) crawlspace under the house; the plumbing is exposed underneath the crawlspace. The 4' difference is somewhat deceiving, though. The crawl space is not that tall because the house sits on a slope. The water heater currently is vented through the ceiling/roof, but not the floor.

bmorepanic - that's it! Can I say again that I love my water heater.

But how far back does that crawlspace go? all the way to the end of the family room by the kids rooms? If so then you should easily be able to run the plumbing to the garage or even as an add on to the washer dryer closet like suggested above.

We have a recirculating pump that gives us hot water in an instant. We have our set up to a timer am, noon, pm so it's not running all day long when no one would be using it. This way you can put it in the basement and have hot water upstairs in seconds.

Duh! Of course, thanks, Todds. Isn't it funny how we can be so close to a situation that we forget to see the forest?! We already have plumbing in that area because the garage is right underneath/behind two bathrooms and the laundry room. So it goes in the corner of the garage with a recirculating pump and presto! no more water heater in the kitchen. I'll have a plumber come out and give me an estimate. Venting would then be through the wall and out into the crawl space, I presume. That will make life much easier!

It may not be quite that easy. We had to install a "loop" for the water to continuiously travel through. Hopefuly that was DH being anal ;-)

Either way it should be cheaper than $20k

Well, I'll call a plumber (or 3) and get a few estimates. At least that will tell me if it's feasible, and could solve at least one kitchen problem before we even get started! (heck, could even double my current pantry size if I clean that cab out and add some shelves.) Now I'm excited!

The water heater has to vent to the outside. You can't vent it into the crawl space. Either you will have to vent it out thru the garage wall or up thru the garage ceiling (bedrooms over the garage?). You might be able to vent it thru the crawlspace using a power vent H2O heater?

Sorta' a last resort would then be switching to an electric water heater.

But worth it to get it out of the house.

We'll have to see what the plumbers say, but there is no way that I would go to an electric water heater. I live in the land of power outages and electricity rate spikes. Has to be gas.

There are bedrooms over the garage so it either has to vent through the crawl space or out the side of the garage, if we go that route.

1) You would need to get a direct vent gas hot water hater. This vents via PVC pipe. More expensive unit than your regular hot water heater but more efficient, quicker recovery time and probably would save $$ since you wouldn't have to deal with building a chimney. The piping could run through the crawlspace but it HAS to vent to the outdoors though. I don't remember where in CA you are located but if there is no snow then the vent shouldn't need to be that high off the ground. Also I think there are restrictions on how close the exhaust can be to a window, etc.

2) While there are devices that don't require you to have to have a loop back for the recirculating pump, the loopback is the best way and the only way I would do it personally. Otherwise you cold water line is used for the loopback and the cold water becomes warm. If you were getting hot water pretty instantly in your master bathroom, where the water heater was currently located, then you should only need to run the recirculating loopback to this point or even the bedroom point in the crawlspace.

3) Unlike the gas water heater you have now, which will still operate in a power failure, the direct vent will not. They have an electric fan, that blow's the exhaust out. Some even have electronic ignition. You still would have the amount of hot water retained in the tank though to use and you always could install a battery backup unit on the hot water heater so it could still operate.

I figure this should be done for around 4K or less. I had a brand new direct vent furnace installed for like $2500. My old furnace was not a direct vent and they hat to run PVC piping to the other side of my basement and out the wall.

Of course if you live in the land of power outages, you can then just buy a whole house backup generator :).

Also, make sure you get prices from other plumbers because those prices were ludicrous.

Of course if you live in the land of power outages, you can then just buy a whole house backup generator :).

Also, make sure you get prices from other plumbers because those prices were ludicrous.

Ditto on both!

Our gas water heater took up precious pantry space in the old kitchen. Tankless is a gift!!! We did an exterior install ... you should be able to do the same living in southern California. Have been using it for over a year and no complaints. It does take a couple minutes during the colder months to get hot water to the water source furthest from the heater, but that's a small inconvenience.

Here is a link that might be useful:

Okay, just to continue beating this dead horse -- here's another question. We currently have a gas double oven stack on the opposite end of the L-shaped cabinet run (in the corner). There appears to be an existing vent through the roof for this gas oven stack, which means I have a vent and a gas line there. Are the vents and gas lines for a wall oven the same as I would need for my gas water heater?

Gas line might be the same but not sure of the vent. Typically ovens are not vented at all. However, my mother has a thermador, about 5 yrs old, that has a vent fan for the heat. It may or may not be the right size. How sure are you that there is in fact a vent for the double oven?

Then again, don't you want the water heater house of the kitchen no matter what?

When you have the plumbers come for quotes for what I had discussed above, you can ask them about this as well.

I'm pretty certain there is a vent. There is nothing over the oven and there are two little chimney-type things sticking out of the roof right over the kitchen area -- one in proximity to the current cooktop/hood area and one close to the door wall.

Yes -- Best Option would be to remove the water heater from the kitchen altogether. Second Best -- get it off the refrigerator wall.

Oh most definitely. That storage tank is needed for when the sun isn't shining.

They have proposed putting the 50 gal tank right up there next to the collector on the roof, where it won't be seen from the street.

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BTW, mungo -- I looked at the solar water heater systems (definitely intrigued) but they all require a storage tank; some even use two tanks. So while they are definitely neat, and if the tank wasn't an issue, it won't work to eliminate an inconvenient tank.