I don't mean to criticize you daisyinga...but before you make a statement like "someone" has had personal "attacks"-but NOT responded with personal attacks herself...you may want to read more of the other links...Because that's just not true. In fact, several of us have suffered personal attacks by "people" numerous times and we "just got tired of taking it." I'd like to see everyone as "adding to" as opposed to "breaking down" but taking comments out of context just doesn't make me or apparently some others people feel "understood."
I think your comment about this not being a place which is designed in order to "offer support" is an opinion and a personal choice which I respect. However, I think if one or more of us do choose to offer support to one another that also should be respected. In fact, there is a link in which the first posts explains the purpose is to offer such support.
Everyone has their own comfort zone. Often by reading the title, posts and replies it becomes apparent what the people who are posting are seeking, whether it be new ideas, support, or whatever. In contributing to a post I would think that out of respect for others you would contribute in a like manner or start another post that is more appropriate for the ideas/opinions, whatever that you choose to express. In saying that of course I must also add that in my opinion not doing so is rude. But...I guess everyone is entitled to express themselves however and wherever they like, it's a free country so far. But, for someone to be offended when other's have shown disrespect for their feelings is a natural consequence for their actions. So..if they suffer in return so be it. After all, we can expect what we put out to be returned, can't we?

Straycat, I've been reading this thread and the posts in it for a few weeks and I finally wanted to join in because of something you have now said at least twice.

On the first or second of November and again on the 15th of November you made remarks about being suicidal. When I read your first comment about suicide on the 5th of November, I actually searched for you on this board to make sure you were still alive. I wanted to make sure you continued to post because you are the only person I have read on Garden Web who seemed to be seriously threatening suicide.

I have been greatly relieved to find you alive and continuing to post.

But having said that, I must also echo comments made by Khandi and Daisyinga about getting some professional support if you are truly suicidal or having suicidal thoughts. This board is not designed for that kind of help. People here may care about you (even when they do not agree with what you say or how you say it, sometimes) but we are not professionals.

Perhaps you don't mean that you really intend to commit suicide but believe me when I say that when you make comments about ending your life, people take them seriously. You affect other people when you say you want to kill yourself. Please don't throw those comments around lightly. If you are suicidal, get help from a professional. If you are not, and your comments are only an attempt to make people stop saying things you don't like, please don't do that.

I hear that you are in great pain. That is very clear from what you have posted in this and other threads, but saying you feel like killing yourself as part of a conversation like this one seems very much out of place.

yes it's disturbing to hear someone express suicidal ideations and i agree that i don't believe it is appropiate to express these thoughts on a public forum that is exposed to so many interpretations. that being said.....
i think straycat's point is not that she going to committ suicide, but rather to highlight to someone that "hey, i'm down right now. i'm at a real low and what i need right now is support not criticism or disgenuine support from someone who is being judgemental. even professional psychotherapist first support the client before they attemp to instill constructive imput about the person. is it a call for help? yes exactly so why project your own issues on top of hers as if she is responsible for your problems. i know you've never stated that, but it's obvious that your're more interested in scoring points (ie. postulating parents are responsible for driving children away) than you are listening and responding to the persons unique needs in the moment.
when my mother was initially experiencing enstrangement from my older siblings she was concurrently caretaking for my 90yo father she use to tell me over the phone how she felt like killing herself. she was under terrific stress. how would it have been if i started to inform her my take on her world. that she had done things in her life that has brought all this upon herself. "the chickens have come home to roost" ..... give me a break. instead i gave her the support i could. i became non-judgemental and offered to minimize some of her stress by caretaking for my father temporarily full-time for as long as she needed. thus allowing her to get much needed sleep and rest and then concentrate on herself and her own needs for a while instead of everyone else's. ultimately she recovered and began to be strong enough to start reflecting on some of her own shortcomings and failings. keep in mind she was 77yo at the time all this occured.

marysdottir posted what I was thinking about your suicide comments Straycat. I think she was kind and caring to do so.

I was glad to read in another thread that you are taking your health and life seriously, Straycat. I hope you are very blessed in your efforts to heal and care for yourself.

Straycat, it's really been bothering me that you said I ran off other posters. Ironically, in the same post that you referred to me (incorrectly) as calling a poster (MommyBunny) a "Mexican Dog" you had some pretty intense conversations with her and she said she was leaving because she disagreed with you! MommyBunny was also saying that she was having trouble with her estrangement from her mother, and you wrote her pretty much verbatim what you wrote to me. Several people on that thread asked you to stop with the restrictions on what people may post and on which topics. Just one example was posted by bloobird (My Page) on Fri, Aug 29, 08 at 16:38.

straycat,
"Just because YOU personally don't value the opinion/advice of others does not give you the final say in who is allowed to contribute, or what they may be allowed to discuss. I suppose that if you consider that offensive, you are free to start your own board or blog or whatever where you may manage both the members and the content, but as long as this is a public forum, everyone is still welcome to contribute as they see fit."

Posted by mommybunny (My Page) on Sat, Oct 4, 08 at 4:29

Hello again straycat:
I've been thinking about what you said. And I have to ask myself. Why am I here revealing my personal information regarding my mother, my life and my opinions when it is quite obvious that my presence, opinions and life experiences are not valued?
I feel that you have totally devalued me as a person and totally rejected me as a person. I don't know why your life experiences are important and valid but mine are not but that is obviously how you see it.
Thank God that I'm not a weak minded person or else your comments would really put me into a deep depression. I admit that I feel hurt by your abusive comments but don't worry I will get over it. After all, I don't know you personally and my life doesn't depend on you and your opinions of me.

Posted by mommybunny (My Page) on Sat, Oct 4, 08 at 6:11
straycat: I guess I am still upset by what you said and am having trouble getting to sleep.
You know. How you treated me in your message reminds me a lot of how my mother treats me. Like cr*p. Like I don't count. Like my opinions don't count. Like my feelings don't count. Like my life doesn't count. I think there is a lot of dysfunction here on this message board and I have enough problems with my own mother and oldest child and I sure don't need this cr*p from this board from people that I don't even know. I hope you feel good about yourself. Right now I'm feeling very angry and depressed. And to be honest I think you are a real j**k.

******

Ironically, after you and other people were going at one another, that is when I posted my comment that you keep bringing up as evidence. This was done to try to lighten the mood, since everyone was getting pretty upset:

Posted by silversword (My Page) on Tue, Sep 30, 08 at 12:12
(I mean, a Chihuahua can be a non-stop, vicious little fiend, but if you're wearing boots, who cares?) Put your boots on ladies, they've released the Chihuahuas! :)

I meant it in a way of telling people not to get too worked up because the other posters cannot hurt them. Thats all.

If anyone is actually interested in this, or actually believes what Straycat is writing about me, please take the time to read the link I posted below. I think you will find that aside from the one post that was grossly misunderstood I wrote several supporting posts to other members.

Im not trying to take these posts above out of context, but I think its really wrong of Straycat to be continuously bashing me, accusing me of running people off and saying I never post good things, when its just not true. I feel the need to defend myself.

beginnerseye,
You said that you don't think Straycat really means she is going to commit suicide. I hope you are right but since neither of us are psychologists or psychiatrists (I assume), I don't think we are able to accurately assess what she might "really" be thinking. My point is that once someone makes these kind of statements it is better to be safe than sorry. Someone needed to recommend professional help and Daisyinga did that. I only chimed in because Straycat did not address this issue in her response to Daisyinga and I wanted to make sure she knew that others also thought her remarks needed to be taken seriously.

Another point I would make, though I'm trying to be gentle about this, is that when one feels low and needing support, the way to ask for that support is not to say something like "as a result of what people have said to me on this forum I now see what a loser I am and I cannot try any longer and I will not be around tomorrow or any time after".

That is not a request for help; it is an attempt to make others feel guilty for saying things one disagrees with or is an attempt to have those people stop speaking out of fear that the speaker might really kill herself. Either way it is not an EFFECTIVE means of getting the support she is looking for. Most of us do not give support out of guilt, we give it out of human connection.

Straycat, people here seem to rally want to understand. Please don't take so personally comments you disagree with. You maybe cutting off some of us with whom you could find connection.

Just forget I ever said anything and enjoy yourselves!

I don't mean to criticize you daisyinga...but before you make a statement like "someone" has had personal "attacks"-but NOT responded with personal attacks herself...you may want to read more of the other links.

I have read them.

I think your comment about this not being a place which is designed in order to "offer support" is an opinion and a personal choice which I respect. However, I think if one or more of us do choose to offer support to one another that also should be respected.

I agree with you there, 100%. That is my personal opinion, and that doesn't make it a fact. Also, I agree with you 100%, those of you who choose to offer support should be respected. Your opinions and your views should be respected. Not necessarily agreed with, but respected.

I wonder if perhaps you and I, along with many other posters here, don't view respect in the same way. I think someone can respect my viewpoint while still offering a dissenting opinion. You may feel that respect is shown by agreement, or silence if someone disagrees. I can't speak for Silversword, but I suspect she and I would have the same viewpoint on this. I see her in this forum and others around the HomeSite forum group giving what I call support - not by agreeing with the poster, but by offering her thoughts in a way that is genuinely thoughtful and reflective, not just a knee-jerk reaction. Although I call that support, others would view that as an attack, because it doesn't support by agreeing with the original poster. My point in saying this is not to bash you, but simply to point out that good people of good will and good intentions disagree sometimes on what it means to be supportive.

Often by reading the title, posts and replies it becomes apparent what the people who are posting are seeking, whether it be new ideas, support, or whatever. In contributing to a post I would think that out of respect for others you would contribute in a like manner or start another post that is more appropriate for the ideas/opinions, whatever that you choose to express. In saying that of course I must also add that in my opinion not doing so is rude.

That is the crux of my post. All over the GardenWeb and HomeSite forums - the stepfamily forum, the Kitchen Table, the Pet forum, the Buying and Selling Homes forum, heck, even the cleaning and home disaster forums - in all of those forums people commonly give and take ideas as well as support on the same thread, regardless of the poster's original intentions. Whether you think it's right or wrong, whatever your opinion, the fact is that's the way it's commonly done. That's not my opinion, that's the way I see it over and over and over again.

I am certainly not arguing with your or disagreeing with you that the way you'd like to see it played out may feel kinder, gentler, more supportive to you. I'm simply saying that even in the days of Spike and the teacups, people got their feelings hurt because of this very same type of issue - people were seeking support and were deeply offended and hurt when they got an exchange of ideas or the discussion veered off in a way they didn't want it to go.

But...I guess everyone is entitled to express themselves however and wherever they like

I guess that's a big part of my point. Within certain limits, whenever you or anyone else starts a post, people are free to take that discussion other places within the thread. It may start out as a "support" or "agree with me" post, but it may very well end up in a different place.

Again, I am sorry for your pain. Any of us with younger children could one day find ourselves in your position, and I know it would be very, very painful and my emotions would be raw.

Daisyinga, "I can't speak for Silversword..."

You can speak for me anytime. Thank you from the bottom of my heart. You very kindly and clearly said what I've been trying to say and obviously not saying very well.

Straycat, ditto on what Daisy said...

"Again, I am sorry for your pain. Any of us with younger children could one day find ourselves in your position, and I know it would be very, very painful and my emotions would be raw."

Daisyinga, I also want to thank you for expressing so well what I have seen over the past few years on Garden Web.

This is a place where we can disagree with each other and where sometimes we disagree strongly, but like in real life, no one of us (not even the person who creates the topic) controls the direction of a conversation. It is always a result of all of the people participating. Things can take many turns in the 150 posts GW allows on a thread.

If someone doesn't like the way a conversation is going, they can start another and try and get what they want from it. I think most frequent posters often have the experience of starting a thread and having it end up somewhere they never anticipated. I am an infrequent poster and I have had probably half of the topics I have started go in unexpected directions. That is not a bad thing; it just is the way things are. Often I learn far more from those who disagree with me than from those who agree.

Well...

Back to the original subject:

"I've had this thought several times and have been wondering about it. How some parents are actually at fault for the estrangement but don't even realize it."

One reason might be because in their opinion what they did was no 'crime'. For example, if you grew up being belted over small offenses and accidents, and as a parent you smacked your kids on the bottom--you may end up with kids who accuse you of abuse. To you, this is utterly ludicrous, "Let me tell you what abuse is, young lady...". But to them, it was shocking or painful or unfair or outrageous. It hurt them just as much emotionally to be smacked as it was to you to be belted. And it's the EMOTIONAL PAIN that causes estrangements.

So the child says, "You abused me and I grew up afraid of you." and the parent completely rejects the notion because their knowledge of abuse is so different. They naturally deny it; and the adult child is outraged because the child is trying to point out, "I grew up AFRAID of you" and the parent can't hear it because they are so focused on the accusations of abuse when they tried SO HARD not to be like their parents. They are offended and insulted and angry and they DENY it angrily and indignantly and defend their right to have done what they did. They naturally want credit for giving their children a better childhood than their own, and they are frustrated because they aren't getting it.

And the adult child hearing this anger and denial becomes angrier and angrier, until they give up in frustration and walk away. How can this be defended? Why is my parent ignoring my key complaint that I was afraid of her, and minimizing my pain?

And the reaction of the parent stirs up that fear again, or remnants of that fear, and the child tries a few times to get a sincere apology and acknowledgment, which the parent cannot give because they thought they should be commended for being a better parent than their own parent, and it's galling to have someone demand an apology for something they were proud of accomplishing.

But denial and defensiveness don't repair relationships, no matter how valid it seems to the parent. And minimizing or rejecting an adult child's complaint will not work.

And if they can hear the underlying complaint: I grew up afraid of you, and I resent you for it, is very hard to hear. It's hard enough to hear criticisms to begin with, but if you've made parenting central to your identity. If you've put all your eggs in one basket, e.g., the mothering basket, and your chick pops out and says, "You did it wrong", it's easy to feel not that you DID something wrong, but ARE something wrong. And that starts a war that gets nowhere. Again the adult child feels minimized and unheard, but the parent is fighting for her identity and for what meaning her life had and for a positive self image and a positive view of shared history. It feels to the parent like death to lose this battle, and it feels to the child like mind control not to win.

A collorary to this is a adult child who says, "I feel this, I felt that" and a parent who can't understand the child's feels or is threatened by those feelings and try to insist: "No, you don't feel that way." Since the parent hasn't the imagination or respect for the child to have his/her own feelings, they can't fathom that such feelings could REALLY possibly exist, and just discount the adult child's complaint. Your complaint's not real, therefore, I don't have to pay attention to it. To the parent it's like giving credence to the man in the moon.

"Example, my aunt's kids ... treat her like they would a stranger. She has no ... idea that all her yelling, screaming, and slaps during their "growing up" years have actually had an effect on them and this is why they don't want her in their lives."

She might be one of those people who don't connect words with feelings and actions. She feels love for her children, therefore her children must feel loved. That she doesn't ACT loving has nothing to do with it since she FEELS loving.

"Unfortunately, my sister has done the same thing to her kids. When I mentioned to her about how she yells all the time (even to her dog!), she denied it. Everyone in the family knows how much she yells. Her yelling has pushed all her family (husband and kids) away from her. Her youngest son is so full of anger that he's slowing destroying his life with drugs and alcohol. Her other child moved to another city and talks about how her mom's yelling has emotionally scarred her."

There could be any number of reasons in addition to the ones I mentioned, but maybe she's like those anorexics who look in the mirror and see a fat girl instead of skin covered bones. She hears herself being kind, whereas everyone else is running for cover.

"How could both these women not see how these estrangements are actually their fault? When you tell them why, they deny it and don't see what the "big deal" is... they don't see the emotional abuse they caused."

And some people are just so self centered that don't see other people as having rich, complex internal lives as they themselves do. Or just don't believe they have as much value as they do. Other people, even their own children and spouses, are two dimensional paper dolls or shadows, nothing more. They aren't even necessarily bad people, just so self consumed they have no room for the fullness of other people.

Also rejection is reportedly the most painful human experience possible, people with abandonment fears, few secure attachments and a lot of insecurity sometimes cannot tolerate to the extent that they will not, cannot acknowledge fault in themselves because of the distorted belief that acknowledging any real fault in themselves will invite rejection in and legitimize rejection. Even if it means they lose everything that's really important to them.

A lot of these people haven't been parented well themselves, and thus cannot parent well in turn. This was good enough for them, why isn't it good enough for their kids? What demanding, entitled brats their kids seem to be.

And there's willful blindness, like the kind people use when their debt is growing and about to topple over and drown them, but they don't want to stop shopping, or when they have COPD but prefer to turn off the oxygen machine a couple minutes every hour rather than give up smoking, or when they see drinking driving away family, friends and employers, but don't want to give up alcohol. Acknowledging the problem means changing, and they don't have it in them--they'd rather lose than change. It takes courage to change, and they don't have it. Easier to blame the kids.

A lot of these people really do know why they were cut off although they claim they don't, but you didn't ask about those.

Disclaimer: of course, none of these scenarios refer to any of the posters on this forum. This was an answer to Khandi's question.

Bucyn, what you say makes a lot of sense to me.

I see so many people who have no idea of the effect they have on others. They are quick to take offense (often when none is meant) and yet they minimize the damage of their words or actions on others.

I see kids being raised this way all the time. Some are children whose parents are forever railing at teachers and coaches about how "unfair" it is treat their child like a regular member of the class or the team. These parents are raising children who don't get along with others because they expect others to do as their parents do and overlook all of their transgressions.

Obviously this isn't the only way to raise someone to become an adult who is blind to his or her effect on others. Your example of someone who has tried to not make the same mistakes as her or his parent and who wants to get credit for that instead of criticism for not being perfect is another way though for quite different reasons.

It is very sad to see situations like that described above by Khandi and others because the person involved is so completely unable to see or hear what is so obvious to outside observers. It makes me wonder if there is any way at all to help in these situations.

I appreciate the opportunity to see things like this from different perspectives and I believe some really valid points have been raised here. So I am evaluating that information with what I am dealing with. So this is a personal struggle not a general one. I have no contact with one of my sons and I can honestly say I don't know why. I am by no means saying that I could not be responsible for what has happened just that I can't see it. Once I realized my son was upset I wanted to know, understand, and do whatever it took to make amends. Yet, I found out he was upset with me when he suddenly quit taking my calls. He would not respond to any of my attempts at apologizing in letters or voice messages and told anyone that asked (his dad and brothers) that it was between "mom and me" but refused to tell me as well. I have had 19 months of silence from him to think about the kind of mother I was, how I contributed to this, and what I could have done differently. I have even gone to counseling which is helping me cope with the loss but not helping me understand any better "what I have done" because I can only talk about things from my perspective. I believe my son loved me and that "he believes" I have done something that has hurt him so deeply that he felt he had to cut me out of his life to find peace.
I have even offered to pay for my son and his wife to go to a counselor to tell them just what it is about me that has caused the problem so that when I go to the counselor he/she can help me see what I so obviously am unable to see alone. Yet they refuse because they have no desire to work this out.
So is it possible that when people say "they don't know what they did" they could truly just not be aware? But saying that does not mean that all of in this situation do not feel responsibile or are not willing to try and understand things from others points of view.

Dear Lost1of3..

I am lost2of2..
I wrote a long letter the other day and somehow it didn't get posted.. so I am going to try again..
your story is so similar to mine and many others..
this is not an opinion I am putting out there.. this was said by a qualified individual..
in doing this documentary...
I interviewed Mark Sichel.. www.marksichel.com
he says and I quote..

Interviewer... it seems a lot of these women seem to be looking for some sort of validation that theyre not guilty
Mark... usually theyre not and usually what theyve done, what they are guilty of, is not a crime that merits wholesale rejection

Interviewer... I just feel like what Im learning from a lot of other people is that theres this whole new kind of category of estrangement that comes for no good reason they just say "done, dont want to talk to you anymore"
Mark... well there are reasons in their head, they have a whole host of reasons, and its basically, generally people who cut off other family members are fragile. And when people are fragile, and feel powerless, they attack.. like when a dog is scared it barks and will attack, so if someone is threatened by a mother-in-law, a daughter-in-law, a son-in-law, whoeverum thats when they will attack and come up with a set of reasons that theyve made this choice which seemed to be valid for them, and the choices generally have some validity, however, its part of getting along with people. People are not all the same and when you want people to be exactly how you want them to be, it.. life is not like that, we have to learn to accept. its a matter of not having rules. Its a matter of not breaking rules of common human decency, in my opinion. Some people feel that they can just break rules, that formerly were not acceptable overall in society. People were too tied to, were not too tied, they were tied to religion, and didnt give themselves the choice of saying Im never seeing you or speaking to you agai.

I have also been speaking to a psychologist who lives near me and he says that usually this kind of thing happens when someone can't or won't talk about their feelings. For example the person, who as a child.. maybe never expressed when he/she was upset with something.. I think that is true in my case.. it still doesn't excuse the behavior but sheds light on why.. he also says.. this is pretty obvious, but it has nothing to do with the one situation that the estrangement occurs.. it is something that has been building and the incident was the straw that broke the camels back.. often making "the" incident seem silly.
He says that it isn't your fault ... and even more essential .. there is nothing you can do about it. They will either come around because they got help through therapy or they will mature enough to see that they must take some responsibility too.
This is me is the crux of all of these threads..
parents here are ready willing and able to take their share of responsibility for whatever is bothering their children...
however.. you can't apologize or correct a situation if you don't know what you did..or even understand what the other perspective is...
Please .. GIVE US THAT CHANCE...or else we are blinded fault...

Im a new poster - I posted on Supporting the Estranged Mother.

Ive read so much for the last few days that my head is spinning. I must say it has helped me, even just to take my mind off my own pain.

It is certainly disheartening reading so many of your experiences and my heart goes out to all of you who are hurting. Maybe we mothers can all adopt Silver and she can adopt us and we will all be happy. She will be our little girl running through the daisies and well pick her up in our arms and swing her around.

As a child in an estrangement situation Silver has an edge on us mothers though. She can ask, as some have on these boards, "who raised these kids?" We must put our heads down and shamefully admit that we did, thus omitting any blame on our childs part. We have no retort for her situation.

Can you imagine going to a psychiatrist, waiting months for the appointment, and then when the time comes at last bearing your soul to a complete stranger, and the doctor looks as you long and hard and says - with a Freudian accent no less - Who raised this child?
How about the other Ive read on these posts- it takes two to tango. A woman goes to see her parish priest, "Oh Father Murphy, tis awful, he wont communicate with me now for going on two years."
"Well, Mrs. Sullivan, it takes "two to tango." What did you do to him?"
"I told him to get out of bed and get a job."

I think Silver is very smart and very articulate, but sometimes fails in her understanding of us mothers. And why not. Shes on the other side - the little girl in all of us, who is hurting. Im sorry for that. I hope it makes you, Silver, a better person and a better mother than you would normally be.

I think peoples hearts are hardened. They dont forgive. That is the problem our children are having for things they have perceived that we did wrong - (be nice if they told some of us what it was!) My son cannot be happy right now and it breaks my heart. Happiness comes from forgiving. We all make mistakes. The just man falls seven times a day.

I truly forgive my child for causing me such sorrow. Its surreal sometimes and it feels like I am entering a dark place that I have no control over. I dont wish him any "karma" whatever that is. If he called me now I would be the Prodigal sons father.

God bless all of you. I hope in time all matters will be resolved.

Sweet, sweet silver....
Every one's daughter, isn't she already? She is everyones son, daughter, conscience, a voice for all of our children. We are the "mothers." She is our child-speaking from a far. She brings out what is wrong with us all. I for one have accepted her, pain, judge, and jury for we did raise these children. They were so innocent when we received them a gift one I prayed for. Karma may be for all we know an excuse for sowing what we reap, no matter what portion of control we had, we are the mothers, thus we have touched our children, and they are a product of that touch.
I am lucky, my children are all educated (up to a PhD-even) they are happy and have everything going for them even the extra gift of beauty. In which they are well endowed. I am so blessed-because the very best of all is they are all happy. I really won't ask for more.
I am sorry everyone hurts-it is hard. But look to the positive side of this if you can, and realize we have had years and years with them before this happened and every moment was a gift, and our memories will always be with us in our hearts.
Today is my birthday, and this is what I am giving myself.

Happy Birthday Straycat - Irish Blessing - May God grant you always...A sunbeam to warm you, a moonbeam to charm you, a sheltering Angel so nothing can harm you. Laughter to cheer you. Faithful friends near you. And whenever you pray, Heaven to hear you.
===============

I'm new here so I can't get pushy, (I haven't paid my dues) but wouldn't it be nice to mark this day as special and see where we all are next year at this time. Want to meet here? Will there be happy reconciliations to tell about? Who knows what can happen in a year. We'll meet here under the heading Straycat's Birthday.

I hope you have, and are having, a very happy day and best wishes for the year ahead. Love, ka12

HAPPY BIRTHDAY, STRAYCAT!! I wish I lived close enough to come over and give you a big hug. :(

I hope this cyberhug will do (((((((((((((( ))))))))))))))))))

Love ya, girl!
kmttsmom

Hi Ka12 and welcome,
Im sorry your son is estranged from you. That must be difficult. You were kind in saying I am smart and articulate. But I think you misunderstood me and my intent. You wrote "...She can ask, as some have on these boards, "who raised these kids?" We must put our heads down and shamefully admit that we did, thus omitting any blame on our childs part."

I am the one who wrote "who raised these kids". But it was not intended to take any blame away from the children or to shame the parent, nor was my statement that "it takes two to tango" intended to mock.

When parents on this board have said they have no idea what happened or how it got to the point of estrangement I have a hard time believing it. Thats why I asked, who raised them? Who knew the intimate details of their lives for at least 18 years? Who has had the longest relationship with them? How could you not see any of the signs at all? Either the child is psychologically damaged (and probably there would have been some indicator of that) or there were clues that if you look hard enough you will be able to see. But I could be wrong, this is just my opinion.

You write about telling a child to get out of bed and get a job and the child not speaking for two years. Thats where the it takes two and who raised them comes in. I didnt estrange myself because my mother kicked my butt out of bed. She raised me to work hard. She instilled values, ethics, and morals and placed a high value on education, both emotional and mental. If a child is so spoiled that they have to be "woken up" at such a late age to the responsibilities of an adult, and then so spoiled that they wont talk to their parents for such a travesty, I have to ask, who raised them to have these misguided expectations of life? Were they just spoiled until the parents couldnt take it anymore, and then they got a big bucket of icy reality on their heads, for which they blamed their parents because they had no idea it was coming?

You are right. I do fail in my understanding of mothers who are estranged. I failed in my understanding of my mother. Just as parents feel the estranged children must be doing it for selfish reasons I feel the parents must have the slightest idea of what went wrong.

If people are on this board to talk about how hurt they are, thats fine. I dont want to do that. I can bellyache about how my mommy abused me and how sad I am this I have done, ad nauseam. Now Im on the questioning side, the figuring side, the understanding side. I want to know how this happens. I dont see anything good coming from me complaining relentlessly about the "wrongs" that have been inflicted on me by my mother. And, I think that if anyone were to know the full extent of what happened to me as a child and growing up they would be horrified and shocked and outraged. Im not suggesting any of the mothers on this board were like my mother. They were most likely good parents. But if they were good parents, who knew their children, and raised them well and knew the children were stable mentally and emotionally how could these children all of a sudden turn into selfish, self-centered, ill mannered, non communicative people? What happened? I cant believe that no one understands at all what happened.

I also wrote "I have seen many estrangments. Some are ridiculous (IMO) and some are justified (IMO). Some are because the wife of the child is controlling. Some are because the kid is a spoiled brat or the parent is a jerk. And some are just from a big miscommunication. But none of them is one sided."

Straycat, happy birthday. That sounds like a lovely gift to yourself.

I hope you really do not believe I "...bring(s) out what is wrong with us all..." as "...judge, and jury for we did raise these children".

I have tried very hard to not judge, but to ask questions. There is no way anyone could know the full story of your life that that of your children. And I hope I don't bring out what is wrong with you. I don't know that anything is wrong with you, or anyone else. I can only guess what is wrong with my own mother, and I've known her all my life. But I will never fully know her. I do not know her as a woman, only as mom. I don't know the carefree college girl, the girl with the skinned knee, the happy bride. I have a very one-sided view of my relationship with her, much as I do with everyone on this board. We only see what others are willing to share.

Yes silver, I do believe you bring out as in your quote below "what is wrong with us all:" isn't that what you want to share with us, your insight into how we have failed our children-how we must be able to see what we did- just as you said in the quote below. Of course "someone had to point out how it just doesn't make sense not to know how or why...but for some reason...the women who are "going through this "DO" see that it "does happen." That is why, you can't believe it or feel it unless you own it. It's just too hard to imagine. I for one know if I hadn't experienced this I never would have believed it either and probably would have thought surely that mother did something horrible for her children to cut her out of their life. BUT too many mothers are hurting and struggling and this. It is becoming just too common to attribute it to something the mother MUST have done. Because we have sought answers, gone to the therapist,and psychiatrists, and they all say...it's not our fault. Therefore what are we to do except wait-we can't change what we can't find is wrong-and no one seems to know.

silver in her post above:
"When parents on this board have said they have no idea what happened or how it got to the point of estrangement I have a hard time believing it. Thats why I asked, who raised them? Who knew the intimate details of their lives for at least 18 years? Who has had the longest relationship with them? How could you not see any of the signs at all? Either the child is psychologically damaged (and probably there would have been some indicator of that) or there were clues that if you look hard enough you will be able to see. But I could be wrong, this is just my opinion."

Thank you for welcoming me aboard Silver. When I said the two to tango bit, it was just a joke. OK, poor attempt at humour - well, maybe it was just a little bit funny...just a little?

When you say who raised them...my son is over 40. He left home when he was, I dont know, 18 or 19? Thats a long time ago. How would I see anything coming? Nothing happened that he gave the slightest indication that anything was wrong.

I have come here to talk about how hurt I am. Thats ok to say that eh. I had a dream of him the other night. We were just sitting talking, and it hurt so much to wake up. I did a search that day and found this site. I was searching more for explanations as to why this would happen, and didnt expect to find a discussion board. I was saddened to find so much pain that children are inflecting on their parents and I was shocked to find that like myself, many dont understand what the heck they did. I thought Id be the only one and they would find it hard to understand me. Im not really here looking for answers as you are, but if I find some, that will help.

You say if we were good parents who knew their children and raised them well......you cant believe that we dont understand what happened. But people have many facets to their personality. We can never really know or understand anyone. Be they your child, mother, husband or wife. We are complicated beings. Sometimes we dont even know ourselves.

God bless.

If we look at how we become who we are several "factors" come into play...same for "our children"...

Genetics-
Environment-
Free Will-

We as Mothers contribute 1/2 to the Genetics. Most Psychologists feel safe saying environment is also about 1/2- so that brings the influence of Mothers down from 1/2 to 1/4t. BUT there is more-Free Will- well I am sure we all like to think free will is a biggie. But if we only give it another 1/2-Motherly influence is down to 1/8th! 1/8th-very, very little. We have Genetics , and environment and free will. Sure We have more influence when our children are small and we control (or try to control ) their environment -but adult children - and of course their free will...we just can't expect to have such a small amount of influence and large amount of accountability. That is my opinion but any way you mix up the numbers it turn out that we are not the only or the most powerful influence in our children's life...not at all.

Great to have you ka12. Plus thank you for the Birthday Blessing. Great idea about the one year reunion! I'll be here!
I know what you mean about the "dreams." I do that too, and often I get insights I didn't pick up on during the day-or maybe repressed them to work on later.
It is amazing the number of Mothers who are estranged from one or more of their children-really sad. It's a long hard road, but it does help to know you're not walking it alone. I remember when I first found this forum-I was so shocked! I thought I was the only Mother having these issues. What a surprise. All of the Mothers going though this do understand. Stay strong and please take good care of yourself-this is a time it is so easy to get run down and sick, so make sure and carve out some time and treats for yourself. It does help.
Take care and again WELCOME!!!
straycat

Thanks you so much kmttsmom for the really cute cyperhug! So cute! Love it!
I read an article today from Mark that really makes me wonder if this isn't what has happed to upset my children (with me) so badly that they no longer want me in their lives. It's called: "The Family Myth"
As it explain the member "cast out" is the one who broke the myth...that would be me-all right. I e mailed my daughter will the link and asked her to read it and give me her opinion....we will see where it goes.
AND YES....I still keep trying...
Cross your fingers everyone... I'll let me know.

dear bucyn i appreciate the depth and candidness of your feelings of emotional abuse and abandonment on your last post way back, but the goal for me in my journey was to get to a place where an apology from my parents wasn't even neccessary anymore. i know it sounds counter-intuitive, but sometimes in order to breakdown barriers you have to do the opposite of what's been tried before. an apology wouldn't work anyhow because your parents admission would only serve to reaffirm your lack of regard for them or you would feel compelled to critique the apology itself, perhaps it wasn't sincere enough in your opinion. the cycle simply repeats itself over and over and nothing ever seems to change.

why don't YOU try to be as courageousas as you expect others. you speak of your parents lack of courage, well what about you. do you have the courage to change? be radical and give up the old tapes of abuse and victimization. perhaps in your mind they are just not worth the effort; but then doesn't that just speak to your own limitations rather than your parents. and i think it's important to differentiate that it's the emotional ATTACHMENT to pain that causes enstrangement, not the pain itself. i was in a simular situation with my parents, without going into boring details there was an ocean of pain, tears and frustration...lost years; and yet that reality did not exclude the possibilty of my parents and i reconciliating. having faults and inadequcies doesn't make your parents evil, sick or defective..... it makes them human. it's when i gave up my attachment to the suffering and let go of the temptation to blame others that things began to change in a profound way. almost instantaneously all the anger and resentment that had built up over the years receded from my weary body and my need to hear my parents account and acknowlege of every infraction disipitated. letting go to the attachment of pain allows new realities to replace old tapes. i accomplished more than i could ever have dreamed and without any confrontation. i know it sounds too good to be true. i didn't lower my expectations or compromise my principles and standards. i just decided to stop being the prosecutor. there was more to life than convincing my parents and the rest of the world how terrible they were. in the end it's really up to you and not them. the power is in your hands not theirs. it's your choice unless being enstrange is easier for you and that's what you really want.

i hope this helps. i know it's not what you might have wanted to hear, but i had to give myself this very speech once.

Straycat,

Could you please send me a link to the "Family Myth" article. I would like to read it. It sounds quite interesting.

Thanks babe,
kmttsmom

It is a good article. Here it is:

http://www.psybersquare.com/family/myth.html.

wish I knew how to put the link in so you could just click on it and be there...but I don't and my husband who would is on the phone. Anyway-I really enjoy his articles.
stray

Straycat:

"isn't that what you want to share with us, your insight into how we have failed our children"

Nope. But I've said that many times, including in that post.

Hi Ka12,

It was funny. I was hoping you meant it as tongue-in-cheek rather than as a mockery of what I was saying. I just wasn't sure if you were mocking me. If you've read the posts above I think you can see why I'd be a little cautious to make sure my intentions are fully understood.

I don't know your personal situation, and I'm sorry you're going through it. Some people in above posts have said that it's cruel to suggest that the parents could be in any way responsible for what their children are doing. I disagreed with the premise that it is one sided.

In your situation, you say your son was 19 when he left home and 40 now. What happened in those 21 years? Did you not see him or speak with him at all?

The reason I am adament that most everyone could probably come up with a few indicators is because my mother is just like many of the mothers on this forum. She has absolutely no idea what could have happened.

As I've said before, all we can do is speak from our own experience. Since my first post I have made it clear that is where I am coming from.

And of course it's alright to talk about how hurt you are here. It's an open forum. Anyone here can talk about anything parenting related as long as it's not abusive to other members and follows the board rules. You're perfectly within your rights to your opinion :)

Silver...

Question for you....
you said:
The reason I am adament that most everyone could probably come up with a few indicators is because my mother is just like many of the mothers on this forum. She has absolutely no idea what could have happened.

I am wondering if you have told your mother why you are estranged from her, or did you just one day decide you had had enough? I know often the straw just breaks the camel's back and of course it's not a one incident situation.

Has your mother had the opportunity to hear you tell her what you think of her or what the problems from your perspective are? Is it at all important to you to get her to understand? do you even want to have a relationship with her? or was she just too abusive in your opinion?
Do you have any sense of responsibility to her at all.. or have you just decided that she is too far out there to ever "get it" and make amends? I guess that leads me to one other question.. ideally.. what would you need from her in order to have any kind of relationship again?

Are you going to reach out for Thanksgiving? what will you do for the holidays?

just curious from the other side:-)

Sarahsmom - what an excellent question. That brings up the point of what are the responsibilities of each party to making the relationship work or not? Excluding outside influences like drugs, in-laws, etc., or abuse why would someone cut off an important relationship like that of a parent-child relationship without first acknowledgeing there is a problem. For instance, if the way a parent acts toward their adult child is causing them pain - why would they not want to discuss it? Some may suffer in silence out of some since of respect, fear, etc, and then one day they just have enough and say "no more." If the other party has not been made aware of how they have been feeling up to this point, why would they be expected to know a problem exists? Are they supposed to be able to "read minds?" Don't they deserve the opportunity to accept, deal with it, and make changes before something as final as being cut out of their life occurs? This would make it appear that they use estrangement to eliminate the issue without trying to work it out because it is just easier to turn your back on a stressful and hurtful situation than to deal with it head on? As most of us dealing with estrangement on this site have shown, we genuinely want to understand and work through the issues. Where as in the case of estrangement is concerned, the one that cuts themselves off is ultimately saying "you are not worth my time and effort to try and resolve these issues."

I have heard that when you want to make sure you are being not only heard but understood as well, you should ask the person you are talking to repeat back to you what they think you are saying. I think misunderstanding happens more often than not because we don't get that feed back. It truly takes 2 people being willing to try and see things from each others perspective to communicate effectively. Estrangement should be the last resort not a way of making the point a problem exists and your not worth the effort to explain why I feel this way.

Thanks!

The only thing I would say is that while we would hope for the opportunity to discuss perceived wrongs.. that would take maturity on both sides...I know in my own experience that this is missing. I often feel more mature about things than my mother (which is immature of me), but I also know that my older son.. while discussing his younger brother said.. that sometimes when you wake up and look at yourself in the mirror and realize all the things you have done, it's easier to just move on rather than to have to go back and deal with things.
Not a very mature response...
So I guess the answer is.. if we were dealing with mature parties on both sides.. we wouldn't have this problem at all..:-(
I still go back to the fact that no matter how awful my mother has been to me.. and she has.. I wouldn't dream of cutting her completely out of my life.. boundaries.. yes.. that is a part of growing up, but cutting her out.. just couldn't live with that in my heart.

Hi Sarahsmom,

You asked a few questions. Let's see if I can answer them all!!

"I am wondering if you have told your mother why you are estranged from her, or did you just one day decide you had had enough?"

Actually, I told my mother it wasn't working for her to live with me anymore, so yes, one day I did decide I had enough. But, I didn't say it's over and we'll never talk again. I suggested she find a place nearby, and that she find something, and that I'd found a few places. She refused, and moved out of state that night, refusing to tell me where she was going. Then she started telling lies about me to family members while acting as if nothing had happened when she spoke with me. Now I don't talk to her at all by phone. I only email as necessary. And she knows why.

"Has your mother had the opportunity to hear you tell her what you think of her or what the problems from your perspective are?"

Yes, she has. She thinks the problem is my dh. This is the third long term relationship that I have been in that she has blamed the problem on him. She doesn't realize she gets wayyyyy too involved in my every day life, passes radical judgement on my life and the problems are exacerbated by her involvement. My ex called me after she called him and he was laughing. He said he listened to her, but that it was amazing how similar what happened between her and him had happened between her and DH. And when I look back, the same thing with my boyfriend before my ex. She lived with me and my ex for one year and he said he wanted her to move out the first day, and he never saw how my DH could live with her for over 2 years.

"Is it at all important to you to get her to understand?"

Yes, it was. Previously. Now, not so much. I've explained how I felt and tire of doing so.

"do you even want to have a relationship with her?"

Not particularly. I do want to be able to maintain enough civility that my daughter can get to know her and have her own relationship with her.

"or was she just too abusive in your opinion?"

She was, and continues to be emotionally abusive.

"Do you have any sense of responsibility to her at all.."

This is a big one. To what degree are adult children responsible for/to their parents? Yes, I did and I do feel that I should care for her. That's why I had her move in in the first place, over three years ago. When it appeared she was settling in for the rest of her life, with no intention to have any life on her own, and judging me and my husband about the way we lived our life, and creating tension, the responsiblity for her became secondary to my responsibility to my family.

"or have you just decided that she is too far out there to ever "get it" and make amends?"

I don't know if she is too far out there. I don't know if she can make amends. I think it's a personality issue really. I don't particularly respect her or her decisions. I can accept her for who she is, but I don't like her and don't want to spend time with her.

"I guess that leads me to one other question.. ideally.. what would you need from her in order to have any kind of relationship again?"

First off, an apology for lying about me and my dh to my ex and my father. Also, to call them and admit she was lying to them. After that, I don't know.

"Are you going to reach out for Thanksgiving? what will you do for the holidays?"

No, I'm not. She's always hated holidays and never wanted to celebrate them. When she was living with me she would throw fits every holiday about how she didn't want to celebrate. Thanksgiving is an entirely made-up holiday, fueled by consumerism, just as Christmas is. They mean nothing to her. But she did ask that my daughter be sent out to her for the winter holiday and I both made the arrangements and paid for the ticket. She will have my daughter for almost two weeks, including the 25th of December.

You also wrote...

"Where as in the case of estrangement is concerned, the one that cuts themselves off is ultimately saying "you are not worth my time and effort to try and resolve these issues."

I don't think that's always the case. I am saying I am not going to go through this anymore. 30 years of this kind of emotional rollercoaster is enough. I am removing myself from this situation, and setting this relationship up so that I am not subjected to your erratic behavior anymore.

Not worth my time and effort? No, a relationship would be worth my time and effort if it were a healthy relationship. Her behavior has created an unhealthy environment. It's not a "this isn't worth it" feeling, it's a "for my own sanity, I need to create a buffer so I'm not constantly affected by her emotions anymore" feeling.

Sarahsmom...

Whoops, I just realized Lost1 wrote "Where as in the case of estrangement is concerned, the one that cuts themselves off is ultimately saying "you are not worth my time and effort to try and resolve these issues."

Lost1...

"For instance, if the way a parent acts toward their adult child is causing them pain - why would they not want to discuss it?"

Maybe there is not the room for discussion. Maybe they did try to discuss it but the other person's heart/ears/eyes were closed. I tried to talk to my mother on countless occasions. There was no getting through to her. It was her way, or no way. And, because she was living with me, and going to every event with me, including family events with DH's family, everything she did reflected on me. It got to the point where we were turning down invitations because we did not want her to go with us, it was too difficult. She would overtake the conversations, putting down those with different political/religious/lifestyles than she has, not letting those older than her speak, not following the hierarchy in his family or acting like a guest. Then we'd go home and have to hear her insult them to us. I tried and tried to tell her I didn't like this and I wanted a different family dynamic.

Like wind over a prairie.... She wanted it her way. Well, fine. Then go live somewhere else and do what you want. But while you're in my house....

Sound familiar? The roles reversed and she didn't like it. And she is perfectly capable of caring for herself, before anyone gets concerned about that. She just wanted to be around my dd constantly and hates it that she can't live with her. Well, I understand. Grandkids are special. But she didn't make sure I saw my grandparents constantly. She moved me thousands of miles away. I am doing my best. But it will never be good enough unless I do everything she wants, the way she wants.

Great article Straycat. I put the link in for others. In the future, if you look below your *Post a Follow-Up* box you will see two boxes:

Optional Link URL:
Name of the Link:

Put the website in the first one and a description in the second one. This will embed the link in your message.

This is what I meant by how easy it is to misunderstand. Silversword replied to my statements based on her perception of what she thought I was saying and thus allows me the opportunity to address the miscommunicaitons.

First of all my statements concerned those that chose estrangement for reasons other than what I listed:

"Excluding outside influences like drugs, in-laws, etc., or abuse why would someone cut off an important relationship like that of a parent-child relationship without first acknowledgeing there is a problem."

I also stated:
"Where as in the case of estrangement is concerned, the one that cuts themselves off is ultimately saying "you are not worth my time and effort to try and resolve these issues."

Which taken without the context of the sentence before regarding "most of us dealing with estrangement on this site" sounds totally different.

In both statements it is reasonable, without clarification, that Silversword could have actually assumed I meant"ALL THOSE THAT CHOSE ESTRANGEMENT" and felt I didn't understand that there are exceptions.

That was truly not my intent - this was about those that seem to suddenly cut off their relationships with family members without warning.

Silversword - that would not apply to you. According to your posts you have really tried and you can't be responsible for your mother not being able to understand or even trying to understand. IMO - the fact that dispite your problems with your mom you are not standing in the way of your DD having a relaitonship with her says volumns to me about your character. Sorry for not makeing myself clearer.

Sarahsmom - you are absolutely right on the need for maturity on both sides as well as setting boudaries.

These boards are difficult I think to not get mixed up.. wish we could all meet at the coffee shop and talk!

Silver.. sounds to me like you have every right to be where you are with your mother. It sounds like your mother has HUGE boundary issues.. sounds similar to me. Personally, it has taken me a very long time to be able to put my foot down and insist on boundaries. I guess instinctively i knew it would be this way so when I graduated from college I moved from GA to NYC. Even then, everytime my mother comes to visit, my furniture gets rearranged..

but I think what lost1of3 was saying is true.. many of us.. not all of course, but many are dealing with adult children who have not tried to have a conversation with us.. it seems like they just skipped to the end and want nothing to do with us. In fact, many of us.. me included will not know if we have Grandchildren. What you are doing is so admirable.. at least you are maintaining something for your daughter... there are many in our midst who had wonderful relationships with their grandchildren only to be told that they aren't going to see them again.

Somehow as we go round and round, I feel like we are not always talking apples to apples..
of course.. everyone's situation is a little different so that's not a surprise...

sorry about all the questions...

I was abused as a child, before my dad saught help with his alcohol problem. He can't undo what was done, and I would be justified in cutting him out of my life. Yet, he did seek help, he asked for forgiveness, and he changed. My dad was a several generation alcoholic who dared to break the chain, and his family looked down on him for being so weak. I saw him as strong enough to want to admit he had a problem and seek help, something they needed but were not willing to do. He is not proud of what he did to my sister and me but that is for him to bare. Through counceling I learned that I could use the abuse as an excuse for problems in my life or I could take responsibility for becoming the person I want to be dispite it. I am not saying that others that are abused should be as forgiving - because that is a personal choice. I am saying that giving where I came from and what I endured makes the fact that my son would cut me out of his life like he did (without abuse by me or anyone) seem so much more unbelievable and hurtful.

Hi Lost1, I think I missed part of your post!!! Sorry about that :) I think you're exactly right about...

"...how easy it is to misunderstand. (A person replies) to (another person's) statements based on (their) perception of what (they) thought (was being said) and thus ... the opportunity to address the miscommunications (is allowed)."

I took some poetic license to what you said to make it universal. You're right, and that is what is so frustrating both in real life and on these boards. On the boards, or on the telephone it is so easy to be misunderstood. Without body language it's really hard to see that someone is being humerous, or loving, or really does intend to be mean. And if someone doesn't ask for clarification, or if it's not offered, the chasm of hurt and miscommunication grows larger.

Hi Sarahsmom,
No problem on the questions :)

I guess coming from my point of view, with total frustration and anger and irritation and and and!!! with my mother, I can't understand that there really could be so many adults who had nothing of consequence happen between them and their parents and take their children away from their grandparents. Grandparents are so important! My mother is great with my daughter. Sometimes I am concerned about her feeding her bad intel, but then it's my responsibility to keep the lines of communication open between me and my daughter so she knows my side as well.

The thing is, kids will grow up and they will form their own opinions of people. I know, because my mother fed me awful info about my dad and kept me from him. I grew up, realized her info was one sided, and my dad and I now have a great relationship. Unfortunatly, we lost a lot of years because of her interference. Time is the one thing you can't get back.

Hey Silversword..

I think you just hit the nail on the head!!
The reason you have been getting such extreme reactions is because it IS hard to understand.. it's impossible to understand for all of us.

I wish I could talk to you in person.. I wish I could show you what I have been working on...I wish you could meet the people I have met and hear the stories I have heard...
I know this is a repeat, but I think the biggest support of the possibility that this really does happen is my own situation. I think I wrote before that my best friends son is a good friend of both of my sons. His mother obviously sees the situation from an adult perspective and every time she has a conversation with her son she would end up in an arguement. She told me that she couldn't discuss it with him anymore as he was one of my biggest critics.. how could a mother, etc etc....
SO .. this past summer, he needed some business advice.. I am in the same business, we talked for about an hour and at the end of the conversation, I told him that I would be glad to help him do whatever he needed me to do but he had to promise me one thing... he had to promise me never to fight with his mother about my situation again.. and then I proceeded to tell him some things he didn't know.. he was aghast.. he went home, hugged his mother and told her he had a different perspective. Then, when I was ready to shoot my first interview. I had lined up a young lady to help me ask the questions and I was going to operate the camera. She is a newly licensed psychologist and was nervous about any liability she might have.. none of course, but I didn't want to put her in an uncomfortable position. So, I was not sure what to do and I mentioned it to my friend.. she said I should ask her son to help.. since this is our business.. I said I had thought of it, but I didnt' want him to feel pressured.. she said, just ask .. he can say no.. so I asked, he said yes, and has been on all the interviews .. even to Dallas with me. He quietly listens as we Mothers talk about this situation.. and I have to say Silversword.. he now gets it.. he even interjects into the conversation.. especially since he has the unusual perspective of knowing me, my husband, my sons, etc. (he's 28.. )

Sorry for the long winded reply.. but I know that there is something very wrong.. we are all just trying to figure out what it is..but yes.. our adult children use grandchildren just like parents use children in divorces...

This is not the situation you have.. I admire your determination to make sure your daughter has a relationship with her grandmother...one more zinger for me..
I was at the park with my dog yesterday and I saw a woman who is a friend of DIL's family. She clearly isn't up to speed on all the dirt, but she was very nice, said hello then said.. oh I hear you are going to be a Grandmother.. you can imagine how my face looked.. I said.. I don't know.
She then said.. oh wait, maybe I have that wrong and it's DIL's brother and his wife..
they got married about 3 yrs ago.. so I don't know which is true, but either way.. this is hell...

Sarahsmom,

"...oh I hear you are going to be a Grandmother.. you can imagine how my face looked.. "

in the vernacular of my generation...

THAT SUCKS THE BIG ONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I personally cannot imagine using my children like that. Grandchildren, children are so precious, and it only lasts so long!!! To deprive a child of love is criminal. I'm sorry. I'm so sorry. In reality, my mother and I have a very civil estrangement. She emails as if nothing is wrong, I email back (cheers, smile, yes I can do that, when will you pick her up, yay, ok, great) and we exist on very superficial terms. For me, this is estrangement. I will not share myself with her any longer. For you, and others, as parents, it is different. I acknowledge the difference. Although I do not like her, I will maintain for my daughter because now it is for her to build relationships, to grow and become a "real" person, with family of her own. My job is to be here for her, to protect, but to allow her to make her own way.

It is very personal, and very individual, these estrangements. As personal as a marriage. As individual as a thumbprint made of jelly on the dining room window.

silversword- The toxic picture you have painted of your mom makes me feel shocked that you would send your daughter to stay with her. Your moms behavior sounds unbalanced at best. I am curious as to why you are happy to trust her with your childs life and emotional well being. You also said it must be her way or no way, of your mom. Do you not feel the least bit hesitant to expose your child to the manipulation or pressure or whatever that you yourself experience with your mom. She sends you nice emails that don't acknowledge your reality or her wild behavior or lies. I am amazed that you seem so cheery about sending your daughter into that in the same post you talk about protecting her in. The two things just don't seem to go together.

bucyn-I wanted to say thanks for your nov. 20th post. It read in part...

"A collorary to this is a adult child who says, "I feel this, I felt that" and a parent who can't understand the child's feels or is threatened by those feelings and try to insist: "No, you don't feel that way." Since the parent hasn't the imagination or respect for the child to have his/her own feelings, they can't fathom that such feelings could REALLY possibly exist, and just discount the adult child's complaint. Your complaint's not real, therefore, I don't have to pay attention to it. To the parent it's like giving credence to the man in the moon."

I have turned myself inside out trying to figure out how my husbands mother could totally disregard us and every attempt he and I made to talk out the issues we struggled with in our relationships with her. When he said he felt or thought something she would rage "NO YOU DON'T!"

Your post was very insightful about why someone would hold so tightly to invalidating and being rageful about an adult childs feelings and perceptions. He wasn't bringing up childhood things but was trying to get across how it was not okay manipulate, guilt trip and threaten. She maintains she has never behaved that way (her mom is that way but she is not, in her perception, that way at all). Maybe it was much like you suggested in your post. A case of her being so invested in that image of being better that any threat to that had to be 'put down' at once.

How did you come to those insights?

We tried to sit down and talk things out with my husbands mom again and again. We are presently estranged from her and I struggle with whether or not to even send pictures or a card for the holidays. I think sending nothing doesn't reflect the love we have for her but sending anything implys that the door is open for her to do the demanding and dramatic scene making that we just are not willing to deal with anymore.

My husband expects her to acknowledge that she has anything to apologize for and she expects him to move on and not mention the past. We tried that over and over and it just meant she kept treating him as someone she can get things from but who has no right to ever say 'no' or even 'that hurts, stop it'.

I don't see anything wrong with talking out problems. But if only one side is talking nothing changes. She has to be willing and I guess she is not. Isn't talking the healthy way to resolve issues?

From our experience with his mom and seeing that talking things out(or trying to) was beyond insulting to her I wonder if there is any other healthy approach to take?

My husband wanted to simply stop talking to her for a few years without trying to sit down with her and talk it out first. I was appalled by that. But after wards I could see how it might be easier to not ever have that kind of conversation. She seemed to feel outraged an accused by the very idea that we'd want to talk in that way. She was outraged before we ever got there.

We'd like to have a relationship without the dramatics. That is not presently a possibility for her though I guess.

If she did experience our trying to sit down and talk it out in they way you described in the first part of your post bucyn, that would explain her reaction a lot. The question is then is there any way to get beyond that to a better relationship?

Hi all

Silver you asked: In your situation, you say your son was 19 when he left home and 40 now. What happened in those 21 years? Did you not see him or speak with him at all?
.........
Yes, I saw him often all his life. I should have said that as nothing is a given. When a child leaves home, often living in another city, their adult personality is forming without you being there and interacting on a daily basis. I think when a boy becomes a man he shares very little with his mother.

Maybe in a way I brought him up too well. What I mean is if he was angry over something why not phone me up and give me a good chewing out. "You so and so. . . Cant you get it right when . . . " and then hang up the phone. We dont have those kind of fighting words, so maybe its a case of repressed anger, although he stuck up for himself as a teenager, so its not as if he never spoke back and he doesnt tiptoe around me like Im some high class matriarch.

But were Canadian eh. And you know what that means? Were polite. The old joke, you know youre in Canada when you step on someones foot, and they apologize. Oh, I want to take this opportunity to wish my American cousins a very Happy Thanksgiving. We have our Thanksgiving the second Monday in October. Humm, if we have our Thanksgiving in October and you have yours in November, that must mean that Canadians invented Thanksgiving.

Happy Thanksgiving to all of you and God bless.

Organic, that is the question of the hour, isn't it? I thought long and hard about what to do. It's very difficult. I don't know that I'm "cheery" or "happy to trust her with (my) child's life". It took a lot of consideration. My mother is excellent with my daughter. They have a good relationship. My mother has been in my daughters life actively since she was born. I have never thought my daughter's life was in danger. I am unhappy with my mother. She and I are toxic together. Does this mean that she is toxic to everyone she interacts with? Not at all. She is a very well liked person. Does she treat everyone the same as she treats her daughter? Nope. If she went in for a psych evaluation Im sure shed pass with flying colors.

It is very difficult to remove myself from the position of hurt child dealing with my crazy relationship with my mother and not project that onto my daughter's relationship with her grandmother.

Just to play devils advocate everyone is only hearing my side. If the children of the other posters were on here, I'm sure we would hear some pretty awful accusations about these parents on this board who we perceive to be loving and wronged people. If my mom were on here, I'm sure everyone would love her and think I'm a brat. She is very funny, educated, interesting, well traveled, down to earth... etc. I think many parents were not so good, but can be excellent grandparents.

After discussing it on this board, with my daughter's father, and with my DH I decided to send my daughter there. There is a lot of family in the area and she will be with her paternal grandparents for a portion of the time as well. I dont know how it will turn out. Ive been concerned about it since I made the arrangements, just as Im sure divorced parents are worried about their children being with their spouse.

Do you have a solution?

Silverword - I think you are doing what you feel is best for you and your daughter and I would bet that if you felt your mother would/does harm your daughter you would take appropriate action.

You also make a good point about this decision being like whether or not you should try to keep children from ex after divorce. Many of us that are divorce know things about our ex and our marriage that our children can't understand and really don't need to know. Most everyone that knows what happened between us feel that had I told my sons the real reason he left that they would be more supportive of me. I know my eldest the ES, blames me for the divorce and uses that opinion to help justify his actions toward me now. Yet, I felt the need to do what was best for them (not me) which meant keeping my mouth shut, forgiving my ex and over time to even rebuild a civil relationship with him. I wanted our boys to never worry about us being in the same place at the same time like weddings, graduations, etc. Just because my husband and I could not live together in a healthy way does not mean that he is not different with our kids. For the most part I feel he is a good dad and to deprive my children on haveing an opportunity to have a relationship with him based on my relationship with him would be selfish, spiteful, and harmful. IMO - is exactly what my son is doing now.

So Silver that is why I find what you are doing so admirable.

Do I have a solution? Silver, it sounds like you have the perfectly right decision for you.

For me with my own mother. My children didn't spend much private time with her until she and I had our relationship healed. It was a matter of my own sanity to validate my very toxic experience of her and resolve that in a healthy way. I would have been a basket case to leave them in her care before that happened. God healed our relationship. I wouldn't have had it in me to leave them in her care before I received that gift from Him.

I couldn't have handled the stress of that internally.
It is great that you have the means to cope. I personally depended on that healing to make leaving my kids in my moms company unsupervised okay.

I understand what you mean about your mom seeming super to other people, that it was or rather IS you that she behaved differently with. I had a similar experience in a way.

A few months ago I had a cousin say, "Oh. I know YOU weren't abused." As though she knew intimately every aspect of the years I went through trying to protect and parent my self destructive mom. I just let the comment die unargued. For her and her siblings my mom has always been a gentle parental influence opposed to their mothers (physically abusive)treatment of them. In front of them my mom was the perfect doting parent to me. (The memory no longer makes me cringe, but it used to.) My mom and her sister both painted me to be a 'special angel' and treated me like gold in front of them. Better than they were treated and the divide that created is not something that can be breached by anything I say about the reality of my childhood. My mothers screaming and tearing our home apart over and over was not something they ever saw the evidence of. It was only her and I behind those closed doors for eighteen years.

Does it matter to me that they see my life differently than it was? Not really. It is sad that we will never be closer. But oh, well.

It did matter a great deal that my mom tried to shout me down every time I dared question anything about our lives. Her treatment and the extreme dissonance I experienced between what happened in our home and what she wanted me to say happened was a big issue for me. "YOUR LIFE WAS PERFECT!!!!" was what she said, not the reality I experienced. : )

The dissonance between her and I mattered as though my life depended on it well into my adulthood because while I was growing up my life did depend on agreeing with her reality or getting her to see my own. I failed at both and was riddled with anxiety until I was healed. My mantra as a teenager was, "It doesn't hurt because I don't feel anything." Turning my reality off was a coping method that backfired on me as an adult. I couldn't function with no sense of the value of my own perceptions. I had to learn that and find ways to validate myself before I could function as an adult.

As your daughters mother you have the right to put her with whomever you wish. You have checked it out with your husband and your daughters dad (your ex, right?). If it were a dangerous situation I imagine that one of you would have pointed that out to the others. So your daughter will likely go have a great time and be fine. You seem to have peace with your decision and you too will likely be fine. Enjoy the time she is away.

My post was because I could not help but question how I would feel in your position. I wish that I had a solution for you about your mothers inability to hear you. If 'civil' works for you and you are happy that is great. I admire your ability to do that I just couldn't handle it myself.

You matter as much as your daughter. And while I admire your ability to delight in providing a relationship for your daughter and your mother I have to marvel at your ability to do so. In my situation I became a wreck at every contact with my mom before that was healed. You must be a very blessed person to keep yourself calm and together for the sake of your daughter and your mothers relationship. Your mother won't change so you just give her more. She is very, very blessed to have you.

Does your daughters excitement at the prospect of a trip help you feel more confident and relaxed about it?