Yup, and Fried Green Tomatoes is about the food, too! ;-)

Sue

I'm showing my age here, but I saw Angela Lansbury and Len Cariou in Sweeney Todd in Boston in the late 70's, before it opened on Broadway. Great (if sick) stuff.

If you're looking for a good meat pie, you can make a classic crust filled pie common in the British Isles--steak & kidney pie, shepherds pie, rabbit pie, etc. A good source for recipes is Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall's book 'Meat: A River Cottage Cookbook'.

Or, you can go the empanada route. Lots of Hispanic cultures have their take on the meat pie. One dear to me is the American Indian/Spanish/Cajun variation of an empanada made in and around the central Louisiana town of Natchitoches. (pronounced, believe it or not, as NACK-uh-dish) Google 'Natchitoches Meat Pies' and you'll get dozens of hits for recipes. Natchitoches, by the way, was a town chosen by Nathaniel Pritikin to see if they could change their ways on his diet. It didn't work.

Dunno why--the aforementioned Natchitoches Meat Pie is a filling of highly spiced pork and pork fat, wrapped in a pastry (preferably made with lard) and deep fried in lard. What's wrong with that???!!

We LOVE Sondheim. Can't get enough. Last couple of Sweeneys we've seen was the production where the performers were the orchestra as well, playing instruments on stage.

Meat pies? Burritos!

****sigh***
The mad barber of Fleet Street!

I don't know how they do it on Fleet Street, but here we decided to make our meat pies gluten-free. A recipe for gluten free pie crust yielded a worryingly heavy dough. The gluten free flour thickened up the milk and broth rather too much. The mashed potatoes, at first a bit pale, were rather technicolor after I overdid the tumeric. And the chunks of stewing clerk got only one pass through the grinder, not three. True to the title of this thread, these pies will be. But no fingernails or hairs - I think.

Made a shepherd's pie . It tastes a little better than it looks.

I wanted to make individual pocket pies, like Mrs Lovett did, but the gluten free dough was too fragile.

Dear, oh dear. That is NOT a shepherd's pie. SOB!
A proper meat pie has delicately slow-cooked meat and gravy - lots of gravy and the pastry has to melt-in-the-mouth - preferably made with some lard and butter.

A shepherd's pie isn't....well..... a pie. No pastry. Traditionally, it's made with lamb but most people use beef.
Make a nice wet minced beef mix. Fry onions and garlic, add the beef, brown, add stock and tomato puree. Some people swear that it needs diced carrots and peas too. I don't.
Make a lovely buttery mash and put on top. Bake until going crisp. Inside, it musn't be dry. That's more like a "hachis parmentier" - very inferior product!

Islay, is "minced beef" like American ground beef, the hamburger type? Or is it really minced, which to me means chopped into very small pieces? I assume it's ground, because the words "ground beef" never appears in British recipes although it must exist. But since you're here I thought I'd ask.
I guess it might also mean "ground very coarsely"...

Hello, mme corbel! Can a proper shepherds pie be made in pocket pie form, I mean the individual serving pies that are fully wrapped in pastry? That is what the Mrs Lovett I saw last night was serving, and what I wanted to make last night, but the gluten free dough was too fragile. I will try again with more xantham gum in the dough, but wonder if to be "shepherd's", it must be an open crust and topped with only mashed potato (and bits of real shepherd)?

We have been having no pastry or bread, and very little pasta, since starting this gluten free experiment. I'd like to add those foods back to the rotation, especially now that winter's coming, hence the attempts to make things with rice flour, almond flour, and milled cardboard boxes.

Islay, will you join us in the Challenge:Doldrum? Think of a daunting cooking challenge, declare it in our thread, and then post updates from your journey.

It will be fun. Not as fun as Slimming World, perhaps, but more fun than Muffin World, where I am now. Not muffin as in pastry, but muffin as in top.

islay, I agree, my Shepherd's pie has no crust at all, it's a mix of very small bits of meat (not ground, but shopped finely), various vegetables and gravy, with a topping of mashed potatoes. The wildest I get is a sprinkle of cheese on top if the kids insist, LOL. I think even Sweeney Todd would approve.

I have had very little luck with gluten free pastry, I can't help on that at all. The little pocket pies sound to me like our Upper Peninsula Pasties, filled simply with bits of beef, rutabaga and onion, some salt and pepper. No gravy and no sauce.

What would Sweeney do? (grin)

Annie

Growing up....what I now call "ground beef" was "chop meat". Hamburger was something very different...it was the stuff that was already sitting in the meat case....made from who knew what.
My mother always picked out a roast and had it ground....
And interestingly there was "pork chop meat".....but lamb was "ground lamb"...or ground veal..

I never make shepherds pie....but I do make pot pies, usually chicken or turkey....and never with a bottom crust.
Alas I am fresh out of lean poets.

I haven't made shepherd's pie for a long time now. It is so difficult to get tender young shepherds around here...

I made this recipe for Beef Purses from the cookbook Shakespeare's Kitchen for a pre-King Lear cocktail party.

They were about 3" in diameter and had a filling of beef, currants, dates and candied ginger, spiced with rosemary, cinnamon, nutmeg and brown sugar.

They were probably the most doldrum-breaking beef pies I've ever made.

I've been reading this thread with interest 'cause I'm thinking some of these ideas can be translated to mini-size for my needs.

Ruthanna, wow, what an interesting beef pie. Also, BTW, sounds like a fun evening! I've never had those ingredients all in one bite. Was it good? Wondering if with that combination of spices it might trigger my body to make a little saliva? If so, that would help me to feel hungry & want to eat. If you enjoyed those pies would you please post the recipe. With those spices I don't think I want to just punt. Many thanks.

John, you always have such fun threads!

/tricia

I would love the recipe too, filling and dough. I think what I want to make is about that size.

My local hangout bar-bike shop shows movies. Usually bike flicks but sometimes whatever flicks. We were talking about showing Sweeney Todd, sometime soonish, and I said I'd try to bring some meat pies. Therefore, I need to learn quicklike to make individual meat pies, exactly the size of ruthanna's. I'm going to try some tomorrow, if I happen across a good recipe (hint hint).

The good news is that I have the filling recipe that I copied from the cookbook - Shakespeare's Kitchen: Renaissance Recipes For The Contemporary Cook by Francine Segan - while I had it checked out from the library. The bad news is that I didn't copy the recipe for the Renaissance Dough because I had fresh lard on hand from the butcher and was sure a regular lard dough would work OK.

Ever since I watched my neighbor Mrs. Canale sprinkle brown sugar mixed with nutmeg over chicken pieces baked with olive oil and rosemary for the last 15 minutes of roasting, I have loved the flavor combination of sweet and savory. Fruits or what are considered "baking" spices married with meat, poultry or seafood is my favorite flavor profile so I thought the beef purses would be good. I made half a recipe as a test run and with the overnight marinating, the rosemary was too overpowering. I reduced it and didn't grind it for the party batch and the majority of the guests liked them.

When DH requested them again, I used 1/2 tsp. of snipped fresh rosemary but the dried seemed to blend better with the rest of the filling.

BEEF PURSES - 8 servings (24 pies)

8 ounces ground round or ground sirloin
1/4 tsp. ground rosemary *
1/3 cup currants
6 pitted dates, finely chopped
1 Tbs. finely chopped candied ginger
1/4 tsp. ground cinnamon
1/4 tsp. freshly ground nutmeg
2 Tbs. light brown sugar
1/2 tsp. salt
Pinch of freshly ground black pepper

1/2 recipe of Renaissance Dough **
1 large egg, beaten

Place all ingredients except dough and egg in a bowl and mix well. Refrigerate at least 6 hours or overnight. Remove the meat mixture from the refrigerator 1 hour before baking.

Preheat the oven to 350. Roll out the dough 1/8 inch thick on a floured work. Using a 3 inch round ring cutter, cut out 24 dough circles. Place 1 1/2 Tbs. of the meat mixture on each circle, fold in half, and pinch the edges to seal. Brush the purses with beaten egg and place on a well-greased nonstick baking sheet.*** Bake for 15 minutes, or until golden brown.

NOTES:
* Used 1/8 tsp. crumbled (not ground) dried rosemary
** Used a standard lard pastry of 2 1/4 cups flour, 1 tsp. salt, 3/4 cup lard and 1/4 cup ice water.
*** Used parchment paper.

For us, minced beef is what I imagine you call ground beef.

John, I think you could have some delicious little baby pasty-type pies. I would make a lovely, rich beef filling and a veggie version (aubergine and mozzarella/tomato) and try this yeasted olive oil pastry. It's delicate and tasty and it's easier to manipulate.

2 teaspoons yeast
1/2 cup lukewarm water
1/2 teaspoon salt
1 large egg, at room temperature and beaten
1/4 cup olive oil
2 cups flour
3/4 teaspoon salt

Dissolve the yeast in the water, add the sugar and leave til creamy
Beat in the egg and oil
add the salt and flour
work the dough until it comes into a coherent mass, adding flour if necessary.
Knead until smooth then leave to rise for about an hour.

You can't beat a good pie. Having got rid of my muffins, I'm taking care of what I eat! If I join you in the doldrums, I'll to up my exercise!

Anybody want to comment on Cornish Pasties? (As I understand it, it's pronounced 'PASS-tee' to distinguish it from those little pieces of covering which exotic dancers are sometimes required to wear--those are pronounced PASTE-ees. Not that I would know anything about such matters, mind you.)

Is that just a meat pie from Cornwall, or is there something special about a Cornish Pasty?

While I can imagine a passable dough perhaps with half wheat flour and half barley and rice flour, I can't imagine a gluten free pastry crust on a pie. That is certainly a worthy challenge! I tried for something quasi healthy once with oatmeat for a sweet tart, but I finally gave up. The closest I get to something I can live with is subbing oil for butter/lard and doing whole wheat, or using phyllo. Neither are low fat or low calorie, but low saturated fat.

Ruthanna, those look and sound wonderful.

Here's a link to that "Renaissance Dough" http://leitesculinaria.com/943/recipes-meat-pies-cointreau-marmalade.html

and to the Beef Purses: http://sandrabyrd.com/blog/beef-purses/

Anybody want to comment on Cornish Pasties? (As I understand it, it's pronounced 'PASS-tee' to distinguish it from those little pieces of covering which exotic dancers are sometimes required to wear--those are pronounced PASTE-ees. Not that I would know anything about such matters, mind you.)

Maybe I should post pictures and ask for help telling the difference. Hey, I've led a sheltered life . . .

While I can imagine a passable dough perhaps with half wheat flour and half barley and rice flour, I can't imagine a gluten free pastry crust on a pie. That is certainly a worthy challenge!

The crust of my initial effort was not terrible. It was not light, flaky and layered as I think of an ideal pie crust, but it was sort of crisp and reasonably browned. But it broke up easily, so if the pie had been crusted on top, it would have been hard to cut neatly.

Thanks, Ruthanna. I'm going to put those on my "To Try" list for the next couple weeks.

John, glad to hear about your gluten-free crust. Frankly, I'm surprised it was sorta good. I've had no end of trouble making gluten-free that I enjoyed. I'm going to order a GF mix from KA sometime just so I can see what something good is supposed to be like. It's quite possible that I just don't care for GF.

/tricia

Made gluten free Sweeney meat pies, v2.

Added 2 tsp xantham gum to each 1 cup of Bob's Red Mill gluten free flour. Otherwise dough was prepared as before - cold butter, ice water, salt, sugar, and refrigerated.

Filling was 1 part tinker, 1 part tailor - oh, okay, beef and pork - plus onion, carrot, garlic, ginger, Guiness Stout, a bit of red wine, various herbage, salt and pepper, cayenne pepper, Worcestershire Sauce, tomato paste, anchovy paste, and milk. Cooked slow, thickened with gluten free flour.

This dough was easier to work with. Rolled out and formed into individual purse pies, not as sturdy as wheat flour pie dough, but not bad.

Then - big problem! I think my oven is breaking down. Hours and hours of pre-heating and it wouldn't go above 320F. The only way to get more heat was to use "high broil". So I broiled my pastie pies. Definitely was not Plan A.

With a bit of aluminum foil, it worked, kind of. The gluten free crust didn't achieve a flakey golden brown, but it did get browned and a bit crisp. And it held together fine, the pies were plenty sturdy enough to pick up and eat one-handed.

Heck, I dropped one on the floor and it still held together well enough to eat.

Anyway, they looked like:

All ten disappeared, my son ate four. So I'll keep working on this dish, it has promise.

I tried brushing on melted butter to get a golden brown, but it didn't work, so I will try an egg wash next - make sense? I wonder if adding some yeast will yield a lighter texture to the crust.

Now, what do to about the blasted oven?

I know it's not gluten free, but I tried the olive oil pastry I posted above last night and it's great. Easy to work with, nice and thin and crisp. Can you try that with your GF flour?

Mme corbel, I made the olive oil pie dough you posted above, with Bobs Red Mill All Purpose gluten free flour, a bit of Bobs Red Mill Almond Flour, and 2 tsp xantham gum per each cup of flour. By the way, I'm not trying to advertise that brand, but I think there isn't much standardization in gluten free flours. This stuff is ground up garbanzo beans etc, I have no idea if it behaves like another brand that might be rice flour etc.

The dough ball was a little weird, puffy and lumpy, with a cottage cheese texture, looking rather like a brain. But the gluten free version of your olive oil dough handled very nicely, rolled out reasonably thin, stretched and was adequately tough. You couldn't windowpane it like a high gluten bread dough, and you need to take extra care crimping the edges as the dough doesn't stick to itself so well, but overall it worked just find for making pasties, the G rated kind of pastie anyway.

I used the leftover meat filling from yesterday. My oven seems to be working again. So we had these:

They taste good. SWMBO says the crust is better than yesterday's effort. They seemed to brown a bit better, and are a bit fluffier. I'm quite happy with this version. Thanks!

Looks great.....and they didn't even leak!

I might have missed it, but is there a reason for the gluten free thing? Or just to avoid extra carbs?

SWMBO has discovered that she may be gluten intolerant, to some degree. So we have, or at least she has and the rest of the family has partly, been eating gluten free for a couple of months. It allows for some experimentation that is kind of fun. Reducing the carbs is nice, for me anyway, because I tend to get porky in the winter. Portland being what it is, there are some gluten free restaurants for when we don't want to cook.

They look really good! (Tummy's rumbling!) Bet they don't travel too well, though :(

Looks like you've conquered the meat pies, John. When is Movie Night?

I dropped by the shop, and we are trying to schedule it. The original date did not work. I'm ready, though! I think that making regular wheat flour meat pies will be easy now.

John, here's a case of life imitating art: some people in Brazil are accused of murdering a few people and making their flesh into empanadas, which they sold on the streets for about 50 cents each...

One of the accused is saying it couldn't have been him, because he's a vegetarian. Yeah, that'll stand up in court.

Remind me not to eat any street food in Brazil.

Here is a link that might be useful: sweeney todd imitators