I got through ! I just wanted to say ...i AM GOING TO THE WEDDING...i HAD PLANNED ON IT.
tHANKS FOR RESPONDING.
mY DAUGHTER WILL BE A HAPPY, BEAUTIFUL BRIDE, i'M SURE OF IT !
i DON'T HAVE A SON, aMY, SO i CAN'T ASK HIM IF HE IS HAPPY..i DON'T NEED TO ASK MY DAUGHTER, i SEE SHE IS, AT THIS POINT ANYWAY.
tHE WEDDING IS NOT UNTIL oCT.2OTH i HAVE TIME TO PROCESS MY FEELINGS AND GO WITH JOY IN MY HEART.
i KNOW ITS ONLY MY FANTASY THAT i WILL NEVER SEE HER AGAIN. bUT WAKING UP EVERY DAY WITH THESE KINDS OF THOUGHTS IS DISTURBING, AT BEST. i GUESS IT IS A COMPONENT OF THE CLINICAL DEPRESSION i HAVE HAD SINCE ALL THIS BEGAN. i AM SO MUCH BETTER NOW, BUT i HAVE SUFFERED AND LOST MUCH.
aFTER A FEW HOURS PASS, AND i'M BUSY WITH MY OWN PATIENTS AT WORK, i FEEL LIKE i'M BACK IN THE WORLD AGAIN, AND, THAT THINGS WILL WORK OUT SOMEHOW.
dO ANY OF YOU HAVE SAD THOUGHTS IN THE MORNING ABOUT ALL THIS ?aND DO YOU GET BETTER AS THE DAY GOES ON ?
cURIOUS?!
B.

Beanotfuddle,

Yes,

I get busy at work and then I don't have time to think about my daughter not returning my phone call or e-mail.

I left her a message on Sunday --- she never called. About 10 days ago I had sent her an e-mail----she has never responded to it.

I have decided not to try to contact her anymore.----My heart is truly broken----and like I have heard others on this site say---this isn't the kind of thing that I can talk to others about----

They wouldn't understand--or they would think I had done something to cause this---and that is the bewildering part----I haven't done ANYTHING to cause this ---

Whoever is reading this--thanks for listening--

Beanotfuddled, Hang in there---Maybe this wedding will actually bring you & your daughter together.

Sorry beanotfuddled, I got you confused with Lostmomma -

The stories started to run together -
Glad you're going to the wedding.

I've decided that depression IS worse in the morning - nothing going on yet to distract yourself -

I've also learned that depression often comes when we feel there are no options - remember that there are always options, that things don't always have to be the way we prescribe them to be in order for us to be happy -

I wish only for the gap to be bridged with you and your daughter. Also, remember that depression is treatable, most importantly is to find a way to express what you are going through. This board is a good step but you may need more -

Take care

Thank you all for responing,once again.Today is Saturday, and things get worse for me over the weekends. No mystery there, I guess. Emotionally, I just feel down and unable to find enthusiasm in anything.It is a tortuous time. With the wedding coming up, I have a few relatives from Canada, staying with me then. YUK! Now I have to muster up the energy to both clean and "put on a happy face." To me, this seems, close to impossible ! They don't know about my daughter and I, even tho I have told them. I think they think this is just a silly "mother-daughter" thing, like all parents go through..grrrr!
In other words, I can't talk to them. More isolation in the midst of others. I have tried to get them to stay at my dauhghter's place (nearby ) as it will be empty until she moves her stuff out on Oct.31st.I don't think they get how down I am, and how difficult it wil be to see her leave for a long while. They are all excited, esp. because they are simple folk, as it were, and don't know from big city weddings and receptions.To them, this is a chance to tour NYC, have free room and board, and be part of an elegant wedding. They put my daughter and I up, years ago, when one cousin got married in B.C. This is why I feel awkward telling them to find a hotel or go to my daughter's. I have emailed my cousin, explaining how my daughter's place would be far more comfortable, and strategic to NYC. My guess is they will stay there, as my cousin said she has been in touch with my daughter about this. But I can tell, that my cousin is a bit put out and is being a tad snippy to me. Oh well, you can't please everyone ! It's not like I'm telling her not to come.Believe me, one day of having to watch me cry and sob will send her packing anyway...I call that family the "psuedo-optimist club,'or, more realistically, the Canadian Den of Denial. What they want to see , they do,and they simply eliminate whatever else there is.I am trying to protect myself from this kind of silliness, and possible fur flying party. I absolutely, definitely cannot take anyone around me who is self-serving, narcississtic, and insensitive...again !
I wish, like some of you, I had other children. I think that would have softened this blow....hmm.just speculation.
From my reading of many of your posts, I get that alot of you are asking the same questions as me. Like ...WHY ?, and what did I do wrong? Some of you have effectively dealt with these hard questions, I sure wish I was there ! I know I didn't "do" anything, but darn it, I still feel worthless, guilty, enraged, confused. How does one "let go" of their own child? It's not like letting go of a balloon in Central Park, for God's sake ! I guess, I don't understand the concept of this kind of "letting go."
I find this board a great help...as far as my other needs I have a therapist and a support group, I'm not sure if I mentioned that before ?
I am a therapist, and therefore have a tendency to get right to the core of my feelings and to express them openly. I hope my style is not offensive to anyone here, I am just being me.
I don't expect to be "saved" BY ANYONE, BUT i'M A LONG TIME FAN OF SHARING, WHICH CREATES (OR CAN) CREATE A FEELING OF IDENTIFICATION. ( SORRY ABOUT THE CAPS !)a SENSE OF IDENTIFICATION FOR ME, CREATES A FEELING OF COMMUNITY. i THOUGHT THAT WAS WHAT THIS BOARD WAS FOR??? iF NOT...DO TELL...AM i NOT SHARING "APPROPRIATELY?"
i'D LIKE TO KNOW, AS IT IS NOT MY AIM TO OFFEND OR OVERWHELM ANYBODY !!!
cURIOUS,
bEA

Hello Bea
I also feel worse on weekends because when I am not working as a marketing consultant I have time to reflect upon the situation. I also tend to drive or walk or bike around my neighborhood and things remind me of the "good old days." As I drive by the old nursery school my son attended, I think of that vulnerable, sweet and affectionate little boy who adored me. He could not wait to tell me what happened at school. When I see a school bus, I think of how I was there each and every day when he got off the bus to greet him, help him with his homework and make sure all was well. When I drive by the local high school, I think of how I agonized over sending him to a private high school to assure him the best possible education. As I see kids in soccer and baseball uniforms, I think of the hours I spent as a team mom while my husband was the coach of his teams. It hurts so much because I cannot believe that someone who was loved and cherished and given every possible opportunity in the world would chose to turn his backs on us. I sometimes have to pull over when I am driving to cry and then get going again as it baffles me to no end and also hurts so badly. As I type this I am crying as I cannot understand what happened along the way.

I guess I am unlike you and not as good a person as I refuse to attend the June 2008 wedding, nor will my husband. I will not put on a happy face and pretend that I am happy that my son who has an advanced degree and a professioanl job is marrying a trailer park no moral girl who never even went to high school. We are not even sure she has a GED. She refuses to get a job, does no household duties and is seeking other men on the internet while my son is at work. All the while she is wearing a $10000 nearly 2 carat ring. I will not and cannot give my approval or blessing to such a union. My husband and I taught our son to be hard working, respectible and decent. His choice of fiance is none of the above. She is a gold digging lower class unattractive person who is taking my son for a total fool. As she uses his charge card to support her 2 unmarried sister's illegitimate children, my son is working 12 hours a day to pay the bills and sell the stocks he inherited from my father to support her trailer park family. I cannot sanction nor condone any of these things. He has chosen to cut off everyone who speaks the truth- which believe it or not he knows in his heart is reality. For some reason, he has chosen to accept this situation and abandon everything and everybody who will not embrace the situation. It baffles me to no end. I cannot explain it nor will I ever accept his current choices. He is ruining his life, throwing away valuable opportunities for career advancement in the guise of caring for this unworthy young woman. Our only crime was expressing dismay at the situation in hopes of having him realize that this is a terrible mistake.

I feel community reading the messages on this board in that I see that I am not alone. I try to talk to my husband, but he is so devastated by this situation that he has retreated into himself. As my husband and I are only children and this son is our only child, not having a family to reach out to makes it esepcially difficult. Holidays are such misery that I only wish they could simply disappear from the calendar. Sitting alone without any family is a terrible thing when so many others have family to share the holidays with.

I pray that my son will come around and also pray that everyone on this board has some resolution to the problems with their children.

lostmomma
I know this sounds corny but "I feel your pain." The way you write really tells me the emotional state you are in is just plain agony...I am so sorry.All we can do here , or anywhere for that matter, is reach out, support, and most of all...CARE... about one another, when and if we can. Right now, I wish I were sitting right next to you, I would hug you and hold steady, a box of nice soft tissues.
Normally my WASP self, is not a hugger. But there is something in what you write, or the way you write, to me anyway, that is asking for caring and warmth, understanding.
Holidays. What holidays? I have erased them and pretend those days are just days off from work, days.My daughter is marrying someone I have only met and spoken with once.
He could be the new Jack the Ripper, for all I know ! Then again, he could be a nice person who deeply loves my daughter. I wish I knew, it would help to feel included enough to have gotten to know him.His parents, way in Wisconsin (I am in NJ) have met my daughter on several occaisions mostly holidays.I don't know them at all either, although I have tried to reach out, and got a perfunctory, stereotyped response.I don't even think they know my full name, and I don't get that it matters to them.
This is not the view of weddings and families I have ever known...so I am treading lightly.
This will be a big bash, an expensive extravaganza...at St. Patrick's Cathedral in NYC then a reception at the NEW York Yacht Club for 450 people....my daughter's fiance is paying for everything...he is 37 !!!
I have gone over this in my mind for quite awhile. But I have decided to go for my self. If I get too uncomfortable, I will promptly leave.
My love to you,
Bea

Weekends are hard on me also, for the same reason. I have time to think. When I'm working, I'm busy with the day to day. Even though I have cleaned house for most of the day, it's on my mind. I wonder what my grandkids are thinking. We are extremely close to them. Are they wondering if we don't care about them? Are they wondering if we don't want to them to come over? Breaks my heart.

Beanotfuddled:
I also live in New Jersey- my son lives in the midwest.

Your future son in law must be really wealthy to afford a reception of that size at the NY Yacht Club.

At least if you decide to leave early, you will have a quick ride back to NJ.

Our last 3 trips to the midwest- 12 hours long were punctuated by tears, feelings of despair and gloom. That is why we cannot go there anymore. We both become physically and mentally ill seeing how our son is being manipulated, how the fiance as well as her family have turned his mind in such a manner that is disturbing. It is astonishing that someone can turn his back on his own parents because they "insulted" this virtuous (????) fiance.

Our son planned to return to school to get his Phd using the inheritance money my father left him as a means of supplementing his income during his studies. When he got his MBA last year, he was voted the most likely to return to school in 5 years either as a student or instructor. He has spoken about this for the past 8 years. His dream was to teach on the college level as he has talents in those areas. As the rate he is going he will be broke in about 2 years and his dreams will all be gone. And so will the gold digging fiance who has so much as told my son to his face that she loves her old boyfriend more than she will ever love him. Go figure. Throwing away a dream for nothing at all.

I often wonder if he is mentally ill or if he had an emotional breakdown as his behavior is so strange. As he will not speak to us, we cannot even make the suggestion to him.

I wish you well- thanks for the cyber hugs!

'I often wonder if he is mentally ill or if he had an emotional breakdown as his behavior is so strange.'
I've often wondered that about my daughter. Right before this happened the first time, she was passing out. The dr told her it was from stress. Not long after that is when she became estranged from us for 3 yrs. I have often wondered what kind of stress she was under to cause her to pass out. Of course, never got the answer.

Another Jersey girl, here, too!

All, I've started a thread in the Suggestions? forum of the GardenWeb portion of this site, asking for a forum on estrangements. As we've seen threads get cut off after 150 posts and I think this thread has 112 posts.

If you would follow the link to my request and add your voice to it, that would be great!

Lostmamma,
You ask how a son could turn his back on you after your reaction to his girlfriend -

I have to say that there was one person who ripped into my husband one time, and I have totally cut her off. It was not her place, and I was so shocked that she had the balls to say such things. I can't imagine a sitution where I personally would ever be insulting to someone else's choice of love -

Now if it were my child, and I estimated that my child was being treated poorly, I would most likely want to sit down and ask that child many questions. I did so with my sister when she got engaged at 18 - (now still happily married after 10 years) - but I would want to be careful to couch my questions in love, so that if and when the relationship ended that child could feel safe to convalesce in my arms -

I just worry that if your son's relationship with his girlfriend doesn't last, you will still have lost him -

It sounds as if you have cut him off as much as you say he has cut you off - his making this choice for love is the qualifier for your acceptance of him in your life. He experiences that your love is conditional - it is what it is. I would just hope for you to see that you have more options, that your son can be a big part of your life if you choose that.

Have you asked him what it is about her that he loves? If you were to discover those things, it might make things easier for you, if you wanted that.

My son started to cut off us long before the girfriend came into the picture. At his graduation in May 2006, he ignored us totally, refused to go out to dinner with us, locked himself in his room in his apt. and acted very oddly. We were totally bewildered. He sure wanted us to help him move all his belongings in the rent a truck. My poor husband and I nearly broke our backs lugging the furniture out and in. Then after we moved all his belongings his new apt., he told us to leave even though we had planned to stay 2 days longer to celebrate his accomplishment. I had rented a car and thought we could all hang out in the college town. He had planned to come back home after graduation before he started work and said he had no desire to come to our house. He had just met the girl at this point in time so that we had never said a word about her as we had never met her. I in fact expressed the idea that I was happy he had met someone.

My husband has been extremely supportive of him, loving and NEVER said a bad word about the girlfriend. When they came here this May, my husband drove them around to the train station, picked them up at the airport at 6 am, took them to the airport when we "insulted" them and they wanted to leave. Never a thanks or word of gratitude. We asked if we could take them into NYC and were told that they had did not want to do anything with "US" as if we had poison ivy.

When my husband was sick and nearly died last November our son made no effort or offer to come out here to add support.
I sat in the surgery waiting room all alone and so afraid, everyone had family with them. My son never thought of flying or driving out despite being able to do so in May when the gf. wanted to see NYC. Same thing for Thanksgiving, Christmas, Easter. He never made an offer. He could have come alone to see my husband but chose to sit in a trailer park instead.

My mother paid totally for his college and grad school- HS before that. He never had the courtesy or honor to even say thanks or even send her a Christmas or birthday card. Yet, he had the nerve to call me and ask how much he would get and when. He asked if her house could be left to him so he could get the extra cash. But, while she is alive, he cannot even pick up the phone and say hello Grandmother.

We found a letter on the floor in his old room when he was here in May. I do not know if he purposely left it on the floor so we would read it or what- it was his feelings about all the bad things we did when was growing up. He objected to my husband being a concerned father who asked him to check in when he was driving late at night and how I was a pain in his neck with always asking him about his studies and how he was angry at me for letting him drink beer in the house when he was in high school. I did that to avoid him trying to use a fake ID and getting busted driving drunk or something. Then the letter went into the cruel things the girl did to him and how he knows she does not love him as much as her other boyfriends. He KNOWS she is not in love with him- and yet he has turned us off in her favor.

Yes, I come across as angry and mad. I think he owes me, my husband and my mother a sincere apology for the rude, cruel and terrible behavior he has exhibited.

Yes, I guess I have cut him off. And I will never accept this girl who treated both my husband and I like dirt on every occasion we saw her. She put tampons in my toilet, nail polish on my bathroom wall, ruined one of my towels and never even thanked us for letting her stay here. I will not accept her. She invited her old boyfriend to their engagement dinner and was on Yahoo personals advertising for a middle eastern man 5 months into my son buying her a $10000 diamond ring. I caught her in several lies as I talked to people at the engagement party. She is nothing but a lying little gold digger. And there is no way we are wrong. He own real father spoke to us fgor over 2 hours after the party and told us that he feels sorry for our son as she does NOT love him, told the father she did not- but that she was interested in his money- she found his bank statement and love blossomed. It is only a matter of time before the cash is gone and so is she. She will not work, does not clean their house, uses his charge card to buy things for her whole family and all the while is seeking other men.

I guess the truth is if she is his choice, he is out of my life forever.

I'm so glad I found a board with this topic. Sorry this is lengthy but pray someone will care to read and advise. Thank you.

Had 3 small children w/ my ex-husband in the 80's when he abandoned us for his drugs and that lifestyle. (I gave him the "choice" to leave or get sober after he beat me and threatened to kill the kids by setting fire to house while we sleep) I nearly became homeless, with no family to help. Actually had no utilities after he left. It was clear he'd work under-table and not provide any support for us. Even while married, though he had great paying job, he was always gone and never provided ANYTHING except rent. (I babysat and sewed childrens clothes etc. for food and utilities and when desperate went to food bank)

Immediately after he left us, I went into the police academy in our major city. Then- 4 months into the 9 month program (quasi-military academy) my ex kidnapped my 2 sons (ages 5 and 10) and left me with only my 7 y/o daughter. For 4 yrs. I worked so hard to take care of her, while also paying atty's and PI's to find and get my son's back. During that 4 yr. time, my daughter was sexually abused by a man I dated and trusted. I set up a recorded conversation and had him arrested and put my daughter in therapy.

I was lucky enough to have contact with my boys by phone about 4 x's per year, but only with help of PI's constantly seeking out where their father had moved them to next. When I spoke with them, they were always crying. They were living in absolute poverty and left home alone with no food, clothing or supervision while father was out living it up, going out to eat, doing drugs, parties and prostitutes. He was also beating them multiple times per week. I would always try to mother them long-distance, praying for them, buying food and clothes and toys and sending them. But every time I found them again, their dad moved them again.

Finally, in mid-'90's, I got them back to live with me. They were ages 9 & 14 and had PTSD (really, reallly bad) b/c the abuse had become so severe the last 2 yrs., it is "unspeakable". Also, I found that much of what I'd sent them, they never got due to constant moving and their dad intercepting the mail and not giving it to them or telling I'd sent it. The whole time they were w/him, he drilled into their heads that I had "abandonded" them and didn't love them or care.

Once with me, I worked very hard to provide the much needed help and support they needed to get over the experiences. They arrived with no suit case and the clothes they had were so old and small they couldn't button their high-water pants and shirts so filthy and tight. They both had head and body lice and they were so thin they were only 45% their expected body weight. They couldn't sleep, they cried all the time, they fought (physically) between themselve's and their sister. The oldest tried to sexually molest his sister one day, the youngest was lighting fires in the house and chased his brother with scissors. They were both 3+ yrs. behind in school.

The youngest (whom this message/question concerns) was labled as mentally retarded. I knew he wasn't. I gave all of them much love and sacrafice. I had to work and take care of them all with no family to help. I never dated. I put all of my own wants and even needs aside. Much of it was spent in counseling and several hrs. a day after school helping them get caught up. Both of them accelerated 2+ grade equivalents per yr. Soon, they were well behaved and loving young men. The youngest was loved by all his teachers and tested at GENIUS IQ that 4th yr. since he'd overcome so much and was able to think straight. Both graduated HS. The youngest, early and with many honors. He also had a "CISCO" certification etc.

My daughter faired well also and became a pharmacy assistant, working to become pharmacist.

In his Junior yr. of HS, his father had just gotten out of a 3 yr prison term (drug trafficking related) and called wanting to talk to the boys. The oldest talked for a short minute, but youngest refused. He went into the Navy soon after graduation. He is now, at age 21 a Nuclear Engineer still in Navy. We've remained in contact by phone and 2x's he came to visit me.

Several yrs. ago my daughter got into a (VERY) physically and emotionally abusive relationship. She ran to my home numerous times in beginning but kept going back to him. Finally, last yr., she contacted me and said she would never speak w/me again b/c her boyfriend won't allow it. I had taught her all those yrs. that you do not have to and should not ever tolerate abuse. But she still chose this.
She has kept in touch with her younger brother since she stopped speaking to me though.

Since she stopped speaking with me, my youngest has become much more distant also. When we do speak, he has nit-picked my parenting and personal choices and even belittling me for the fact that I have been very ill/disabled over the last 4 yrs. (It's auto-immune disorders etc. which my doctors say is caused by extreme prolonged physical and emotional stress. I've required 12 surgeries and am home-bound in severe pain)

A few times, when I was well enough to travel, I asked if I might be able to come and visit him. He said "No, I dont' think so, I'm working to much and can't take a vacation..." He also began making vague comments to the effect that I was lacking in partenting skill and was "nobody" (HIS WORDS) He criticized me for being "So thin and pale now" etc.

Last month, he informed me that HE HAS CONTACTED HIS FATHER BY PHONE AND INVITED HIM TO COME VISIT HIM FOR A WEEK. I was utterly shocked and didn't know how to respond exactly. I asked him what his reasons were and he said b/c his aunt (my ex-sister in law) told him his father is no longer on drugs and has changed his life around. I just advised him to "Be very careful. I don't wan't to see you hurt."

His father was there for a week. My son called me after he left. Said what a great time they had together and is planning to go visit him and his aunt soon. Then he said, "But, Mom, he does NOT want to have any contact with YOU at all! He hates you BECAUSE OF ALL THAT YOU'VE DONE TO HIM" (WHAT?!) I said, "What I have done to HIM?! What are you talking about?" He ten said, "Never mind, I shouldn't have brought it up". I said, "No, I'd like to know what it si he thinks I ever did to HIM". He then said, "A lot of things, but I don't want to talk about it."

I had been asking for pics of him (of my son) for nearly ayear and never got any even though he has a camera and takes pics all the time and posts them on DeviantArt. Never of himself thoug, just scenery. Then he advised me that if I wanted to see it, he has a pic OF HIS ESTRANGED ABUSIVE FATHER on his web page. I looked at it and it is entitled "MY DAD". Like he's so proud of his father, almost as if he never did any of those things and they and this wonderful relationship all along. Is my pic on there? No. He also gave his father many pics of himself.

CAN SOMEONE PLEASE TELL ME WHAT WOULD LEAD TO THIS BEHAVIOR??? I FEEL SO HATED AND BETRAYED BY MY OWN SON, WHOM I HAVE LITERALLY LAYED MY LIFE DOWN FOR. WHY WOULD HE ARRANGE THIS, TELL ME ABOUT IT AND MAKE SURE I KNEW THAT HIS FATHER HATES ME ETC. AND HOW COULD HE BELIEVE SUCH STUPID STORIES THAT HIS FATHER TOLD HIM? WHY IS MY SON NOW BASICALLY PUTTING ME DOWN?

FEELING VERY HURT AND BETRAYED AND IN SUCH SHOCK DON'T EVEN KNOW HOW TO RESPOND OR HANDLE THIS.

GloryGirl, I can't offer much help but I can tell you two things:

For some reason, many of us who were in abusive relationships and who have daughters find those daughters end up in similar relationships. It has happened to me.

Also, in many, many cases of divorce a "child" who estranges him/herself from the parent who raised him/her, will form an alliance with the "weaker" of the two parents. That, too, has happened to me.

Why does this happen? I don't know and if anybody does have any input, I'd sure love to hear it.

None of this is any help to you, but as you know from reading this thread, you are not alone.

Good reply njtea. I have another take on it.

I honestly believe that many of the children written about on this forum are mentally unstable and in need of therapy.

Glorygirl's son seems to have some love for a man who did nothing for him. This seems to be a form of self hatred in that he is aligning himself with someone who is not worthy of his love and turning his back on the mother who raised and loved him. He wants to be trated badly.

In my son's case, he has turned his back on us in favor of a girl who treats him like trash, looks for other men on the net while engaged and who told people that she has no real love for him. I think it is a mental illness involving self hatred. These kids have such poor self esteem that they gravitate towards people who will treat them like dirt to support their feeling that they are indeed worthless. It happens with people who marry abusive people. They have asuch a bad opinion of themselves that they look for means of reinforcing their perceived worthlessness. In the process, they have to abandon those who love them because they do not feel worthy of love. When they get abused and mistreated, it makes them feel that their perception that they are useless is correct.

I feel for you GloryGirl. We are all in the same boat with slight tweaks in each situation. It hurts and we all feel you and our pain. I wish you well.

I agree, Lostmama, that many of these children do have some form of emotional or psychological problem that needs help.

In my case, my daughter has ADD. She had therapy when she was a young teen, but her self-esteem is still very low. Her husband found her an easy target and she felt she was needed. She'd been in a couple of abusive relationships before she got married, but this guy is smooth and as someone in another forum someplace on this site said about some abusive men, his abuse was initially very subtle and then began to escalate and became more overt.

It's upsetting as I tried so hard to build her up as she was growing up. I was brought up being told that nothing I ever did was right and I wanted so very much to raise my kids with some level of self-esteem. But it's hard to do when you allow yourself to remain in an abusive relationship and put the ADD on top of that - I didn't stand much of a chance of raising her with any amount of self-esteem.

The psychologist I consulted after the final break told me that if even half of what I'd told him about my daughter, our relationship and her family life was correct, she was in big trouble and needed therapy, as she was either depressed and/or suffered from deep anxiety. Unfortunately, I don't think she's had much, if any.

We just have to keep hoping that time will open their eyes and they will extricate themselves from these relationships because NOTHING we say will make any impact on them.

I think if family "leave" you something, you just got lucky, as it is nowhere "written" in the stars that they must. My parents had nothing to give me or my siblings so it seems rather silly that others feel their parents are obligated to shower them with their leftovers from years of hard work and savings. Just my opinion.

I also feel there is something mentally or emotionally wrong. My daughter has always been tender hearted and cried easily, yet she is very hard hearted towards me, her father, and her brother. Doesn't make sense. She had a good childhood, was not abused, had every opportunity. Does not make sense. I know she has low self esteem and seems very co dependent on her husband. Her hubby is a tyrant and is ALWAYS right. I know he yells a lot but is not physically abusive.

Thank you njtea, lostmama and sniffles07 for your input and support.

njtea, in your next post you seem to blame it on yourself. I want you to know I grew up in a (very) "dysfunctional" family and there was abuse of many forms. From what what little you've shared already, I can tell that you were a much better mother to your daughter than I ever knew or hoped for. Don't let that man, or anyone indicate to you that it was in any way your fault. We all make our own decisions. I could've (and "should've" based on theory) messed my kids up horribly for life. I could've neglected and abused them or whatever. But I didn't. Neither did you! Sounds to me like things "just weren't perfect" or there was some problems which is usual.

I think that (in general, though there are exceptions) we all can and do make our own decisions regardless of our childhood experiences. Oftentimes, it is the abuse and/or hardships people experience in childhood that causes us to rise up and be so much better people and parents than our own ever were. We learn from their mistakes.

On the other hand, it can go the opposite; Kids who were raised in a healthy environment just simply choose to go out and live like the proverbial "Prodigal" in the pig-pen while we suffer and put off our live's b/c of the grief while waiting for them to turn back from their ways.

We are the Prodigals' grieving mothers. (I'm sure there are fathers as well) As Chloemichelle said-"The person I loved is gone someone else has taken over their body". I can so much related to that. Even beyond that... I re-live and cherish the memories of being pregnant whith them, cuddling, playing, first day of school etc. etc. And now it's like, "What happened?!". For me, it's been so sudden, unexpected and traumatic that I feel sometimes like it's almost PTSD.

I feel a need to mention I have *NO* psychiatric diagnosis. I went to several professionals to check b/c I never felt like this in my life and it worried me. Also nothing like that in my family history. But, as I'm sure some of you know- This truly can be so heart-wrenching it feels as if you're "losing it". The Psych's told me that it "Is a normal grieving response to an abnormal and shocking situation".

lostmama, I wish I had the kind of insight you do with the psych stuff. There could be some truth to that self-hatred theory but it's been hard for me to see that as the behaviors SEEM diabolical. I mean here's this kid that's such a high-achiever and he flaunts his talents, intelligence and annual income. I'd never thought he might have LOW self-esteem and especially self-HATRED. But what you say does make sense. I realize that he may also be using these gifts and acheivements to boast, not out of pride (as I am of him) but perhaps to cover up for or redeem his low self-esteem/self-hatred underneath.

God Bless you all.

I feel so sad for all of you with grown children problems. My heart goes out to you. I too have issues mainly with a daughter-in-law and her mother but I know that I have to bite the bullet and make it all work because my son will be the one to suffer if I don't. As a typical mother-in-law, I believe my daughter-in-law is to blame for alot but I also know my son is not perfect either. As mad as I get at my two grown sons at times, I realize that I have to be the strong one and bite my tongue because I am their mother and therefore I have to set a good example. Here is my sad story; I physically hit my daughter-in-law a month ago after her mother physically assaulted me. I was so stunned at her mother(with whom I have always been cordial with)I had a delayed reaction and took it out on my daughter-in-law because she automatically took her mother's side without hearing what her mother had done to me and to my son. I have never struck another human being in my life but this is what I was driven to. But I also did it because I was tired of 15 years of emotional abuse from my daughter-in-law and let's face it, from my son as well. Now I am seeing a therapist. I think all in our family have issues but I'm the only seeing the shrink to help control my anger but also help me learn to accept the woman that my son obviously loves very much. I have apologized to her several times but she doesn't accept it and won't talk to me. Strangely enough, she sent me a birthday present today signed, Love(all the family names). She thinks her mother did nothing wrong and I can't battle that. What started it all was that I caught her mother "dissing" my son in front of his kids and they were crying. I pulled her aside and quietly asked her not to that. She grabbed my arm and twisted it leaving a bruise. This is what initiated the rest of the fight. Now my son says he is not mad at anyone and he won't talk about it at all. He told me he loved me but I haven't heard from him since so who knows. The grandkids are upset like everyone else and I feel the holidays are ruined. But the holidays were ruined before this debacle. Spoiled kids, too many presents, too many people all talking at the same time and no one listening to anyone else. Too much family. Who needs it? Of course I will miss it when the time comes and I may not be there but why do I even care? If my son wants me there, I'll probably be there even with the "other" in-laws!

I guess my message here is no matter how much it takes and how much pain, we as parents have to go the extra mile. I will do that because of my love for my son. Believe me it won't be easy and I will have to swallow my pride.

Is it George Carlin's joke about children? 15 minutes of pleasure for 50 years of pain!

I hope that all of us with hurting hearts will feel some sense of hope that things will get better. It is always darkest before the dawn. We have to help ourselves though too. My love to all of you.

Happy Birthday Kalliebear
I wish you lots of love and joy in the next year of your life. I hope that your problems are reolved. As for holidays- mine will be lonely but my husband and I plan a trip to Las Vegas that will cover Christmas. Thanksgiving- who knows what we will do.
It is true that mothers should try and go the extra mile- but it is very hard when you do not even get met one inch into the mile.
Have a good day!

Kallie, the first time I was estranged from my daughter, I went to counselling. I was so depressed it wasn't funny. My daughter told me once that she went 1 time but the counsellor told her there wasn't anything wrong with her so she didn't need to come back. I don't believe a reputable counsellor would say that. How could they know what issues she has from 1 visit?
On the bright side..my grandkids got to call me this weekend. They talked and talked. I told them all I loved them and to remember they were ALWAYS welcome. What brought this call on? Is it because my daughter is just hearing silence from us? Is this making her think that maybe we've given up on her? Hard to say...any ideas?

Sniffles,

My son and granddaughter did call last night to wish me happy birthday. I was so happy I cried. My daughter-in-law didn't get on the phone so I don't think she is ready to forgive and forget and I'm not so sure I am either. My son is such a quiet person I never know what he is thinking. I probably won't hear from him now until the holidays. Then I'll start thinking again about how mad I got at his wife and feel guilty. I think therapy would help them but if I have learned one thing, it is that you can't force anyone else to change. You have to change yourself. I also think that if we have raised our children in a somewhat stable environment with love, that they will return to that mode of stability eventually. When I read about people whose kids have turned nasty in their teen years and 20's after being nice loving children I can relate. My boys were like that but for the most part they have become caring loving adults, working hard and getting on with their lives. It took them a while and it has taken alot of patience on my part. I think daughters are more conditioned to show their emotions.

If I am ever able to repair the relationship with my daughter-in-law we are going to have to change the way we do things in the family. I want to show my love to the grandchildren but they are growing up and it is really up to their parents to raise them, not me. My husband and I have ours lives to live too. I think we need to distance ourselves a little bit more. Let's face it, little children are fun to be around(then they grow up,ugh!).It's their parents who are the pain in the you know what! In the end, we need to do what is good for us. I can't live the rest of my life with these feelings of depression and sadness so maybe the shrink will help to some degree but I am also aware that I have to help myself.

I'm really not qualified to comment on your own situation (and I haven't seen all your notes)but I think your daughter is upset by everything, loves you and wants her childen to be cherished by you. I think this is what my daughter-in-law wants too. We will get there somehow.

I had to look for an old bank statement tonight and came across an envelope full of my son's baby pictures, school papers up to his college application.
The drawer even contained photos of his dorm room when we dropped him off to be able to look at it as he was so far away. I loved him so much and still do.

I found all sorts of award letters and certifications that I had saved as I was so proud of him. I alwways did everything I could to encourage him and make sure that his life was easier than mine was. My parents never gave me 1/10 of the praise, help and encouragement I gave him on a daily basis. I was involved and interested every step of the way. He was my life for the past 24 years. And now he cannot even talk to me.

I know in my heart that I was a good mother and that I did everything I could for him. Why does he hate us so much???

I am having such a hard time dealing with this- it has turned into a constant thought.

I had a dream last night that he was badly burned in Afghastan of all places- he is not in the military and certainly would not be over there. I woke up all upset amd I think I am losing my mind.

Sorry for being so negative. This is the worst thing that has ever happened to me. I have lost my son and I do not know what to do. I cannot even think of what I did to make him hate me so much as to not even call or let us know how he is.

Sniffles, I think distancing yourself is the best thing you could have done. Look at the other side of the coin. I saw a lot of my grandchildren, not as a baby sitter but as "the grandma with the toy box". LOL One or two of them came almost every week end to spend the night. When they were sick they came to stay with us instead of being home alone. We were very close, but when they became adults, We didn't see them anymore unless they happened to be visiting their parents when we were. When their grandfather was in the hospital very ill, they didn't visit. The last 4 years of his life we didn't see them at all. I don't waste anytime worrying about it or calling them. I just go on with my life

Lostmama,

I always felt that if I lost a child by death I would have to have another one so that I could love that child in place of the one I lost. I think we need to have that person to love especially if we have been a mother. Many of the Columbine parents adopted children after their childen were brutally murdered. Your child hasn't died but you probably feel like that is what happened. Could you somehow give that love to another person, child or maybe even a pet and move on?

I like to think that we can lead by example. If you move on and accept what has happened perhaps your son will see that and return at some point. Don't live the rest of your life in abject misery. There is someone who needs the love you probably have to give and you know the saying "Tis far better to give then receive". I sometimes doubt the wisdom of that but down deep I know it's true and I'm not a religious person.

I have 3 cats and am feeding and about to adopt a 4th. My cats give me love and affection that surpasses that of my son. I also have started to go and feed a feral cat community. I also know of and often visit 2 children who lost their mother to liver disease 4 years ago. I bring them things, talk with them and try to make their lives a little better. They seem to love me more than my son. Funny, these 2 kids know my son and know how I raised him. They are both so amazed by how this turned out. The girl, who is 16 wants to contact my son via e mail to tell him how he has broken everyone's heart. The boy who is 11 simply cannot understand it as he actually admired and emulated my son when he lived here. Your advice is good- and I will continue my work with my cat and kid adoptees.

What a fascinating thread. I am a woman who has been disinherited by my father. I have been married for 21 years, have a 12 and 14 year old. My mother died 10 years ago. My father was always self-centered, my mother catered to him. He did not always treat her very well, even as he took the meals she doled out and let her do all the housework. My sisters and I were raised to believe that no matter how parents behave, you have to respect and love them. Like it says in the Bible. I did that for a really long time. Our entire family made excuses for Dad's inability to be anywhere on time, keep promises, his utter insensitivity, his cruelty, for his failure to take part in family-oriented activities.

I hosted many Thanksgivings, had holiday parties, and when he was here at my home, pampered him with delicious meals and attention. My children were taught to always welcome grampa warmly, sat on his lap, kissed and hugged him. He was treated as a V.I.P, which is what he expects. But he never helped with my kids (I always had to have paid babysitters) or offered to carry a single dish to the sink. I could be really sick -- this actually happened -- and he would still show up and want to know what there was to eat. The one ocassion I really needed help -- my best friend of 21 years Dad died and I had no one to watch the kids so I could go the funeral -- Dad said he couldn't help me out. He just had other 'stuff' to do that day.

Once he took up with dating, he brought women to my house for dinner. He viewed it as a cheap date! He would show up to see my kids for 15 - 20 minute visits, leaving them feeling somewhat abandoned when he left. The visits were always scheduled on 'off' hours like after school, to never inconvenience the women in his life or interfere with his dating life. Never mind that after school hours were the worst for me. He'd come, bring a toy, then split, leaving me to sooth the upset children.

Eventually, I started questioning this so-called relationship. With the help of a great counselor I saw how messed up things were. I started realizing I had to set some boundaries. Hoping to establish something better, I stood up for myself once. JUST ONCE! And that's all it took to set him off. He told me that if I didn't march to his tune, he was cutting me off. He said he'd given me money in the past (this was money left to him by my Mom basically) and tallied up all the material things he'd given us (a used car that needed $4k worth of repairs, a clothes dryer he had sitting in a storage unit) He called me names no child should ever be called and blamed me for every one of our family's problems. I was deeply wounded. Several weeks later, he sent me a check and said it was a token of his esteem. I was shocked. How could I accept a penny from him after he'd crucified me and said I owed him love and respect because of gifts he'd given? I felt he was trying to buy me back.

I feel awful about this, but the things he called me and said to me can not be erased in my mind. I know there is no future for us as father and daughter. When he told me he would never speak to me or see me again, and that as far as he was concerned I was dead, he effectively killed us. Oh, you want to know why? Because I cancelled a lunch date at a TGI Friday because he didn't confirm that he was going to meet me there until the day before, and by then I'd made other plans. In the past, I'd have totally rearranged my schedule to please him.

It is terribly sad. I don't see why the children should suffer, so I organized a trip to a museum for them. It was extremely uncomfortable. I cannot look the man in the face. Dad has remarried now. People think of him as a really nice guy. He has friends. He goes out and does things. When he tells his friends -- if he reveals it -- that we are estranged, I bet they all wonder how such a great guy can have such a crummy daughter.

I wish things were different. Turning the cheek this time would mean that once again, he'd not have any accountability for his behavior. And we'd be back to the old pattern or me doing everything and him waiting for everything to be done for him. In his presence, I am basically an object. Fortunately, I have been helped alot by a wonderful counselor, but I grieve every day. Not just for this present breach but for the years I spent trying to be a perfect daughter in the hopes that it would turn him into a perfect father.

Judithm, I pray that some day he will see the wasted time he could have been spending with his daughter and grandkids, and change before it is too late. I see that every day, but the story is the other way around. My daughter doesn't want us, and her tryanical husband will not allow us to see the grandkids, even though it's hurting the kids. We've been good parents, not perfect. Sounds like you have been a good daughter, maybe too good. Best of luck.

Judithm, I'm so sorry that your father has the way he is and as I read your story I felt sorry for your mother also. What a horrible life she must have led with this man. Unfortunately, it sounds as if he might never come to his senses. It's an all too familiar story: a man leads one life at home and puts on another face to the community

Life is too short for head games - I will not put up with it from any one including relatives. Your father just sounds like he was spoiled his whole life, by probably first, his mom and then yours.

NOT by you, thank goodness... the madness has to stop somewhere and you must draw the line at what is acceptable to YOU and your family. Good luck!

I am sorry not to write more about my own circumstance of being estranged today. But being estranged by my now 41 year old daughter for 12 years is an experience that I have spent a tremendous amount of time and emotional energy on. It has been painful but the pain is not as bad as in the first years.

One thing that I did to cope after six years was to set up an informational website on the topic and then later a blog. I get an occasional question from visitors looking for a discussion group on this topic. I have directed them to other places in the past but there are few and they have limitations, such as the limitation here of 150 comments. So I've offered to set one or more private groups up for online discussion if there are enough people who ask me to do that.

So I just wanted to let you know of that option. Also, if anyone here sets up a discussion group on estrangement and would like it to be linked on my site or blog, please let me know. I'd be happy to do that.

Ginny

I've been estranged from my 18 yr old daughter for 16 months. We were never apart. After Divorce she tried to control & abuse me (like dada) she went to jail for 4 days (not a great place for an honor student.) Then, she wanted daddy well since then they have played me for stuff she wants, I've sent at least 50 emails no repsonse to any, now I hear she is terrified of me? Please advise, I'm ready
to let go, but cant seem to. She's very young.

Kimee

lostmama...

Please click on your "clip this post" for the post you wrote on August 26th. I tried to write to you but I see that I did not post it correctly. I am "new" to this site. I will check back to see if you were able to read my post. Thanks!

My brother stopped speaking to our parents five years ago. As his older sister by four years (I am 60), I am technically an outsider regarding their estrangement, but an insider in that I understand both sides of the issue. What I have to say is not a criticism of either the parents or the adult child. As they say, "Just the facts, maam."

My Parents Side

My parents did their best at raising us. They loved us as much as they were able to, but their love was and is always conditional. My mother is a narcissist who only talks about herself and cannot empathize with how someone else is feelings. She is critical and extremely selfish. When my brother and sister-in-law were in the early stages of their relationship (theyve been married 35 years now), my mother disliked my sister-in-law and let me brother know it. My sister-in-law is a very wonderful person.

My father was rarely home. Although he was extremely disappointed when I, a girl, was born, he finally got his son. My brother could never please my father. My father called him "stupid" and "dumb" from the time he was a small child. He rarely went to my brothers Little League games, but when he did, he told my brother that he would never be any good at anything.

Yet, when my brother became a drug addict for 20 years, my parents paid $15,000 for special rehabilitation. They paid for the down-payment on their first house. We had a family business, and my brother enjoyed vacations, a car and car insurance, medical insurance, and much more at no cost to him. When my sister-in-law got leukemia and had to go to a special hospital out of town (she survived the transplant 13 years ago and is healthy now), my parents paid for an apartment so my brother could be near her, and when she got out of the hospital, she had to stay in the apartment for two more months to be near the medical facility
As I said earlier, they did their best.

My Brothers Side

My brother did his best at being a good son. He was respectful and honored our parents until he became serious with his future wife. He never got into serious trouble but was rather spoiled in the sense that very little was expected of him regarding household chores or mowing the lawn. He worked in the family business after his marriage, but after seven years of internalized anger, he, his wife, and two small daughters left for Alaska without telling anyone. Somehow, he and my parents made some sort of peace and my parents visited in Alaska a few times. Finally, my brother and his family returned home, and went to work, again, at the family business. But my parents behavior never changed in that whatever they did for him (his drug problem, for instance), they always threw it back in his face whenever they felt he wasnt fulfilling their expectations. Finally, five years ago, a situation occurred that severed their relationship completely.

How I See It

My parents nor my brother are people who will take responsibility for their own actions; therefore, my parents completely blame my brother for the estrangement, and my brother completely blames my parents. My parents are old-fashioned and believe that they have done nothing to deserve this. My brother feels that they have never understood him and more importantly, that they dont love him.

Ive read many parents remarks on this site asking, "What did I do wrong?" If you really want to know, you can find out. It is very, very difficult to listen to criticism without becoming defensive, but unless you do, nothing will change. You can actually tell your child that you want to know exactly how she or he feels and that you will not become overtly defensive or angry. You must promise to JUST LISTEN and take responsibility for what is true. Even though we parents never mean to hurt our children, we do, and that is when, after the child has unloaded years of anger, we say, sincerely, from the bottom of our hearts, "Im so sorry Ive hurt you."

Adult children need to understand that, regardless of how much you were hurt, your parents DID do their best. You need to realize that your parents were once children, young adults, and new parents who are only people and not gods. You must take responsibility for your own actions simply because you ARE adults and continuing to blame your parents does not allow for healthy psychological growth. You must also JUST LISTEN to how your parents are feeling without becoming overtly defensive or angry. After your parents have unloaded years of their own anger and hurt, you say, sincerely, from the bottom of your heart, "Im so sorry Ive hurt you."

The problem is that pride and fear stop parents and children to reconcile through self-honesty. After all, if both parties blame each other, whos going to go first? "Well," says one mother, "Ill show her. I took her out of my will." Hey," says her son, "if my mother thinks Im going to kiss her ass, forget it."

So the poison of anger and hurt runs through our minds and bodies day after day, year after year. Dont lay on your death bed regretting that you never tried. Its too late then.

Pinapina, yours was a wonderful post and so true. There are many of us parents who have accepted responsibility for our role in the estrangement and realized how our children were hurt by our actions, but to no avail as our children cannot see that they have done any wrong and have nothing for which to apologize.

Your sentence: "You must take responsibility for your own actions simply because you ARE adults and continuing to blame your parents does not allow for healthy psychological growth." I believe this wholeheartedly. So many of our children are deluding themselves, however, by believing that they are going to lead wonderful lives now that their parents are out of it. Little do they know that NOT resolving family issues will impact them AND their children until the end of their lives.

There is one website where the moderator advises that if parents apologize profusely for their mistakes and and forgive their children for the estrangement, all will be fine. The moderator, a professional, does not seem to realize that reconciliation is a two-way street.

Unfortunately, it often takes the wisdom of age to see that apologies and forgiveness are due from both sides and often, by the time our children have achieved that wisdom, it is too late and they and their offspring have lost so much.

Unless you have ever been in the situation...it's hard to understand what goes on and the gambit of emotions involved. Parents apologizing and taking the blame for everything doesn't fix things. Maybe in a rare case, and then it's probably an underlying current, all through the relationship. It's not always all the parent's fault. The adult children play a big part. Unfortunately, a lot of the time, the spouse or gf/bf of the adult child play a big part in it. Diryboysdad, you are right...a lot of the time the adult child realizes too late.....

pinapina, When I was a kid and my parents fought, I thought I knew what they could do so that everything would be okay and they'd get along. Of course, they never did what I thought that they should do and they never did get along and finally they divorced. And my ideas on what would fix things wouldn't have worked. The problems were more serious. And they weren't good at being married. They wouldn't have been good at being married to anyone. It wasn't their "fault" and it wasn't my fault. It wasn't anyone's fault.

pinapina, I am sorry that your brother and parents are estranged. It's a painful condition to be near and to know both sides. Your approach reminds me of mine when I was much younger. The temptation is to say, "If only you . . ." and finish with suggestions for civilized behavior on everyone's part.

You mention that your mother is a narcissist. I am assuming you mean that she is more narcissistic than the average. Right there that means that there is a thousand pound gorilla in the room that is difficult to ignore and hard to make go away with some nice apologies given by all concerned. Not that this is all her fault. She may be a relatively well behaved narcissist.

For some of us as parents or as grown children there are other thousand pound gorillas that do not go away no matter whether others in the room have apologized, would apologize, or would be happy to reconcile without any apology. Thousand pound gorillas like alcoholism, drug addiction, bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, NPD, BPD, and on and on.

All of the reconciliations that have occurred that I know of have happened when the person who estranged him or herself had a change of heart and decided to end the estrangement on their own, generally out of the blue with little or no warning to anyone. They just end it and reconciliation occurs.

It's funny but when a woman is in a relationship with an abusive husband and stays, she is called a battered wife. Or if not battered but emotionally abused, people still know that she is doing something bad for herself. When a parent is in a relationship where they are being abused by their child and then they are out of the relationship, people see that kind of situation as so different from that of a woman or husband abused by their spouse. After an abusive marriage, people wouldn't see that getting back together would make sense unless the people had changed and there would be no more abuse. In an abusive relationship between blood related relatives, why would it be any different?

Yes, we miss the people that we love. But would it make sense to apologize to someone who is abusive and to end the estrangement if abuse were to continue? It wouldn't matter which role someone had in a relationship, whether parent or grown child. If someone is being abused by another person, then it makes sense for them to be apart until the abuser has changed and can stop being abusive. Or can take part in a relationship in a healthy manner rather than an unhealthy one. Sometimes a separation is necessary while someone takes some time to grow up.

And sometimes the gorilla in the room is SO big that there is nothing anyone can do. Like my parents who never could get along. And it's not anyone's fault and it can't be resolved. And it is sad.

So glad I found this sight. I'm not the only one going thru this! Divorce after 22 years. I left(4 yrs ago) a verbally and emotionally abusive husband who was on meth. My kids 18 and 21 still have little to do with me. They blame me for hurting there "dad" by leaving. He portrays himself the "pitiful" victim. They eventually chose to live with him because of the freedom and money that teenagers want. I (the disciplinarian) couldn't compete. I raised them while he was a work-a-holic. Now he's not working and needs them to comfort him. While I took the high road, he has brainwashed them. I can't believe this is happening. Any advice out there?

linnie, Elements of your story sound familiar. My ex didn't use meth but he did see himself as a victim when I left. That was 23 years ago.

As for advice, first I want to congratulate you for taking the high road. That can be hard to do. I thought I took the high road but looking back, I realize that I'd have done better to say a lot less to my daughter, even though I thought I was commiserating with her, about her father. I did take the high road in trying to be fair and in keeping my promises. But I was angry at him. I did lose my temper at him in a letter. He hasn't talked to me since I sent that letter. Which would be fine with me but that made it impossible to be a united front as parents, even if no longer married to each other.

I consider that estrangement between my ex and I as a contributing factor in the later estrangement from my daughter. Then later she estranged herself from her father and her stepmother.

She has a mental health condition that may be involved in all this too. But it would have been better if I had expressed less of my anger about my ex to my daughter and if I had restrained myself from losing my temper at him. (Even though I still feel a sense of satisfaction at telling him what I thought of him!)

So my advice is to lose your temper only in front of trusted friends with whom you can vent. What is happening is unfair but if you continue to stick to the high road, your determination may pay off. Your kids may have a change of heart and decide to see you as the fair person that you are.

Ginny

I am recently estranged from my 26 year old son. It happened last summer after what was supposed to be a wonderful family trip to Hawaii. We invited my oldest son and his wife to come along with us, all expenses paid. We had been fortunate to have free air travel due to mileage. To make a long story short, are daughter in law has never liked us. Almost as soon as I met her I told my husband that she was very comfortable with us (i.e. lack of respect!) As soon as they were engaged I started hearing about things I had done that 'hurt her badly," from my son. This went on up to the wedding, with me continually apologizing and making amends for crimes I didn't commit. My husband told my son at the wedding that we really wanted his wife to call us Mom and Dad now, not by our first names which she had been given permission to address us by (reluctantly.) Since we had so much turmoil in the 1 1/2 that they were engaged, we thought it best to stay out of their lives as much as possible so that perhaps she would feel more secure and comfortable with us. We wanted them to know we weren't going to be interfering. We stuck by our guns, but continually were insulted by the way she conducts herself with us at get togethers. She acts bored, doesn't join in on the conversation, and is generally awful to be around. My son never seemed to notice her behavior, or if he did he ignored it out of his feelings for her. I should say also that my son had very little experience with dating, and no other serious relationship before he met this girl. I should also say that I believe she mislead him as to what her values were so that she would measure up to what he wanted, just so that he would marry her. A year before our trip to Hawaii we decided to invite them with us and our youngest son. I made it clear to my son that I didn't want to know an answer from him so that if they didn't want to go we wouldn't assume it was she who decided it. I also made it clear straight away that we wanted this to be a family vacation, i.e. do things together most of the time. My son had no problem with that, yet as the time drew nearer I kept getting odd phone calls questioning how much time I meant by most. From the minute they showed up at our door at 7am the morning of the trip I knew it was not going to be good. Most people on their way for 10 days expenses paid to Hawaii would be so excited and in a good mood, right? Not my DIL, she looked like she'd rather be doing anything else. She didn't talk to us in the car, on the plane, etc. Thankfully my husband and I sat together and the three of them sat together. My two sons conversed most of the trip, but my DIL did her own thing and tried to sleep. Hawaii was a nightmare. From the start of getting there they were off on their own. We'd have dinner together and she wouldn't join in and acted bored to tears. When we did spend time together she and my son would be off by themselves, while the three of us walked alone. Finally near the end of the trip it came to a boiling point. My husband took my sons out for a beer and confronted my son about his wife's behavior. My son admitted he had noticed her being quiet. Apparently my son came back and talked to his wife about it since by the next morning she had locked him out of the condo bedroom. My son was beside himself, so my husband managed to get his wife out of their bedroom and outside to talk. My husband is very good at calming emotional situations as he does this quite often in his job. Though he talked to her, she just claimed that she has the type of personality where she'd rather listen. Of course this didn't jive with a few experiences we had in Hawaii where we joined up with friends of my son and DIL that happened to be there. When we were with their friends she was the life of the party, talking, laughing and carrying on. Still my husband talked with her, explained how we were feeling, lsitened to her side and came back to the condo with her announcing to us all that she didn't mean anything by her behavior, that she is just introspective! We spent the last day in Maui with all of us together, but her behavior was just a bit better then it had been. Since my son and I had had words also over the tension, I'd say it was still tense when we got back home even though we had basically made up. The rest of the summer was discussing, arguing, and hearing what we are sure was an out and out lie for her behavior on our trip. She didn't tell my son about this until she was confronted, and my son wouldn't tell me anything other than they had got bad news while in Hawaii. Finally after me pressing him for the bad news by stating we were worried (which we were,) he told me that his wife had thought she had a miscarriage. I asked if she was late, if they were trying, why did she think she had a miscarriage? He told me no to all my questions, and stated she thought she saw something. If she had been pregnant and had lost the baby at two weeks there certainly wouldn't be any evidence she could see. Still, we couldn't accuse her of lying to our son. Also, even though she had a cell phone that would allow her to call the states for a local rate, it never occured to her to call her dr., her mom, or talk to me. She was 'too embarassed' to talk to me because she is so afraid of having a miscarriage because allegedly her mother had several. To think my son fell for this line is absolutely amazing, but then it was ingenuis since most men wouldn't have a clue. It wasn't until she was home that she found out from 'someone' that she didn't miscarry. This was according to my son. Now if that someone had been a dr., I'm sure she would have stated dr., not someone. After her escapade in Hawaii we told our son she could no longer address us by our first names, that we wanted her to call us Mr. & Mrs. as before due to her obvious lack of respect for us. We didn't state the respect part to our son as the reason though. She refused to do so, causing so much anguish for our son. Mind you my son has been seeing a therapist since they got married, and is on medication. His wife however doesn't go to therapy or take meds that we know of. After a tumultuous fall, it reached the breaking point one night when he called with a list of 'issues' he had with us. This is a son who we used to have a wonderful relationship with, and all of a sudden we had wronged him. After a raging arguement at their condo where my son wouldn't let us in his apartment to discuss things, threatened to call the police, and finally had me reacting emotionally by calling my DIL a b*@ch. This was followed by my son calling me a F'ing b*@ch. I was crushed. The next few days were hell, and by day three I emailed my DIL and apologized for my emotional outburst. I put a return receipton the email and copied my son in so that I would know they both saw my apology. She never opened it. My son finally opened it 3 or 4 days after I sent it, but not reply, nothing. I was so angry that even after my apology that he didn't react that I wrote a three page letter listing all the things that had gone on in the past 3.5 years and also a few jabs. It was an email which is all to easy to write and send off before you have time to let everything you said sink in. I'll never send an angry email again, from now on it gets saved as a draft and given some time to think about. Still, even though my email was very blunt, my husband and younger son said I was right in what I had said. I probably could have left out a few remarks that were very sarcastic though, and I'm sure that even though what I said was true that it still hurt my son. Since that time I have only text messaged my son to let him know that I love him and that he is always welcome back. He did return my text with a very short 'thanks' and that he loved me to. He's never called. We didn't see them for Thanksgiving, and only saw them a week after turkey day because my sister in law had a party for her daughter who turned 30. They came and did come in and greet my husband and I, but I know it was a charade since the whole family was basically watching. They never talked to us again that night. My husband wouldn't even stand up to hug my son, though he did embrace him somewhat. My husband also acted as if he didn't see my son's wife to avoid greeting her at all. I did however give a hug to both my son and his wife. Later we all went bowling and were on two different teams. It is a big family so we had about 10 peoples on each team. We never spoke during that time, but when we left I did say goodbye to his wife and hugged my son and told him I loved him. He has never said he is sorry to me for his outburst, and it hurts me so much. I realize now that my son was never the person I thought he was. My younger son has helped me see how selfish he always was, and that though my DIL may be evil, she just helps feed his already immature personality that doesn't seem to be able to be natural. It's as if the two of them are play acting. Everyone thinks they are so special with all the kind things they do for the family, yet who are they the least kind too, us! Their relationship is a facade. They both drink too much, and are both very much 'me' people. They don't speak about important things, and though at one time my son seemed to think family was of the greatest importance, he now seems to not care at all. I don't know if he even loves us or not. I am devastated, and every day seems like I have more weird stress and anxiety symptoms to deal with. I could never have imagined this happening in a million years. We did nothing but bend over backwards for 3 years to please his girlfriend and wife. We wanted to like her because she was so important to him. We would have done almost anything to make things work, but Hawaii was the final straw. If we didn't have my younger son with us I doubt anyone would really believe us that it could have been that bad. Without us ever saying a word to my younger son, the first night when we went out to dinner and my son and his wife split off from us we got a mouthful from the younger brother. Our son came outside by us and told angrily told us that he had never met anyone like his brother's wife. He told us she was ungrateful, and he couldn't understand how she just couldn't pretend to like us. I think I might be insane if it weren't for the fact that a 23 year old see's through her, even if my 26 year old can't. I just don't know how I'm going to survive this. I jsut want to move on and leave him behind. No child who treats his parent's this way deserves to be in their lives. Every day I say I'm moving on, but it is like slow motion and all sorts of things trigger angry emotional feelings. It is so surreal.

I know I went overboard writing this message, so please forgive me. I'll take any support, advice that anyone can give. I don't know how i"m going to live out the rest of my days without him, yet I don't want him if he is going to be this cold to us.

anniebal

Anniebel, your son is married to a controller and until he decides he's had enough of her, there is, unfortunately, nothing you can do. Look up "injustice collectors" and Sichel on the web - what you read won't make things better but it might help you to understand a bit.

Take it from a pro, the more you criticize the DIL, the more your son will defend her. Just be glad you don't have grandchildren.

Even at 26 your son is still young - it's said males now don't reach full maturity until they are 30 - just give him time. Text him once in a while and tell him you love him and are available for him. When he finds the strength to overcome this woman, he will return to the fold.

Thanks njtea, I looked so forward to hearing from someone. I pretty much guessed it about her control issues going back to when they were dating and engaged. Before he married I finally reached a point where I was asking him why he was doubting my intentions so much. I told him that he knows me, and that I'm not the type of person his girl was trying to portray me and my husband as being.

The sad thing about grand kids is, is that I think they'll be planning to start a family next fall. I feel that when that happens she'll have him for good. I don't have much if any faith he'll come back to us.

I will look up what you suggested. I can use anything that helps me understand more then I do right now. I've read many books on narcism, emotional black mail, controlling people, etc. In Hawaii when I was desperate for some answers, I got on my internet that I luckily have on my phone, and did a search for personality problems. In place of problems, it came up with personality disorders. There are many disorders so I started reading through them. When I came to the NPD (narcistic personality disorder) I nearly died. It matches her so well I couldn't believe it. All the way down to how she behaves so bored and dis-interested when she is out with us.

I made the mistake when emotions were high of asking my son if he could keep something in confidence between he and I. When he said yes, I took him at his word and told him to look into the NPD and see if anything about it hits home with someone close to him. It wasn't until some time after that that I learned my son has never kept anything from his wife that we've said. He doesn't believe in keeping a secret even if it means his wife won't like us should he tell her. As far as I was concerned this was and is a medical problem that she and he needs to understand. However, all he saw it as was me trying to say she has a mental problem. It was definitely a terrible move on my part. I told him only out of desperation, but I should have known better.

I have heard as you have that kids in general are not reaching what is considered adulthood until the age of 30. Many kids in their mid to upper twenties are still rebelling!

I don't know. This generation is so different with their thought process. I think we have given far too much to them and expected far too little in return.

I'll let you know what I think of the items to look up.

Anniebal

Anniebal, if you've read about emotional blackmailers and controllers, then you already know what a search for "injustice collectors" will find for you.

My SIL is a controller and while I think my daughter, to whom I've not spoken in over two years, knows it, she has not yet developed the wherewithal to leave him - and it's because of the kids, whom I've also not seen in over two years. His controlling personality didn't really show itself until after she had her first child and then he "sprung the trap."

Anniebal, Before the estrangement from my daughter began twelve years ago, she was the touchiest when it came to anything that I said about her husband. Things that were said with the most positive of intentions, that were not meant to be critical, were taken as though I had said them with the worst of intentions and as though I disliked him. The mildest things were taken as horrible. You'd think that he was so fragile that he was made out of wet tissue paper from the way that she reacted.

For example, they came to visit us once. (The one and only visit by both of them to see us.) Before they left, I insisted on giving them $50 because they had no money on them for their drive home 350 miles. My giving them money was later brought up to me as a bad thing. As though I was implying that they were irresponsible.

During that visit, my SIL came down with a cold. He was miserable and coughing, sneezing, complaining and carrying on. He insisted on us all going everywhere together. He would not go to bed and get some rest. At a later date, after the visit, I suggested to my daughter that he might have gotten some rest rather than try to stay with us at all times. She took that as meaning that I didn't appreciate him at all and that I disliked him.

Other things were brought up to me later. I had said during the argument that brought everything to a head that if I visited them, that I couldn't eat certain foods because I have high cholesterol. My SIL took that as meaning that I EXPECTED him to cook for me. Hardly! Prior to that happening, he had approached cooking as something he particularly liked to do and that if we didn't allow him to cook for us, he would be hurt. But he liked to cook foods that were rich. So my mention that I couldn't eat some things was taken as a further insult to him and also a demand on my part. Which it was not.

After the estrangement began and when I heard from my daughter two years ago, she accused me of ignoring his having had surgery when he was in the hospital in 1996. This despite the fact that she had NOT TOLD ME ABOUT HIS SURGERy in 1996 and that at that time she was refusing to talk to me. So I'm expected to know things from 350 miles away that no one told me about? And if I don't know these things, I am demonized?

It becomes a "can't win" situation. There is nothing in some cases that you can do or say that is right in their eyes. Nothing!

If you do manage to have a relationship with anyone who is like this, I think you have to become expert at walking on eggshells and being a phony and biting your tongue until it bleeds. It certainly can't be an honest and real relationship.

I think in this kind of situation, if someone recognizes it for what it is before an estrangement begins and wants to remain on speaking terms, you have to bite your tongue and stay silent and pay no attention to the things that you don't like. Or be cut off.

Imaginny,

What you say is so much like what we have experienced I feel like you had stolen my story! Our first real dispute came just after he got engaged. I had asked my son if they were sending out a Christmas card, and he said no. Though they weren't living together since her parent's wouldn't approve, they were together in his condo quite often. My son told me that they were not sending a card that he knew of. I asked if it would be ok for me to send a cute picture along with my card of the two of them that was taken by the mom of my now DIL who just happened to be downtown the day he was proposing to her. My son was all for this and said of course it would be alright. I then asked him one more time if that would be a problem and he said no, that they had talked and they weren't sending anything out. So, when I had my picture card made up for us, I had their picture made into a 4 x 6 card also but put the inscription on it stating something like their first names, the day & year they were engaged, & either Happy holidays or Merry Christmas. I'm not even sure I stated the last part, it was just so my family and friends would know he was engaged and have a picture of the girl he had chosen. I stuck it in behind my card in the envelope. I was shocked shortly after I had sent out the cards when my son called me to ask why I sent a card out for them? I or course defended myself stating that it was just a picture basically announcing their engagement to my friends and that it wasn't meant to be a card for them. My son continued to tell me that it was 'technically' a card (which I couldn't argue) and that they wanted to send a 'holiday' card but now couldn't! I reminded him of how he told me he wasn't going to send a card, but he stated they had changed their minds. I asked him if he was sending cards to my list, and he said yes! As if he was going to send to my list, other then a few relatives on each side. I told him he could still send his holiday cards. I was so offended that I told him I had to get off the phone. My husband tried talking to him telling him that he (my son) knew his mom better then that and that when I do things it is only from my heart not interfering or meddling. I think I did tell him that I was sorry he felt the way he did. Later he called me to attempt to talk. I had to call my DIL and apologize only to hear her condescending remark of "just don't let it happen again!" Who did she think she was talking to?!!

When I started seeing a therapist this last summer, she told me that no matter what I do (or we do) that they will find fault and that there will always be an issue. Truer words were never spoken. Everything I say is turned around to mean something else just as you described. The similarity is too much to believe, but of course I do believe you.

That is why after we had made up with my son a few months ago agreeing to let them have anything they want to be happy, and he returned it by calling a short time after with a list of 'issues' that my husband and I had caused in his life, that we finally said enough is enough. We have extended one olive branch after the other only to have it thrown back in our faces. There is no pleasing them or their wharped thinking. I did look up the guy Sichel and the 'injustice collectors,' and realize that they will just keep expecting people to live up to what they perceive to be high ethics and moral high ground until they are alone and bitter.

This is also why my husband and I have decided no more. They are getting nothing more then a card from us this year, which they have yet to reciprocate. No gifts, no phone calls. The most I will do is as njtea suggested, a text message letting him know I love him every so often. We are not apologzing again. They can either accept us for who we are, or we will not be part of their lives including any grand kids. At this point I don't even have a desire to be part of any grand kids lives since god only knows what they will convince them of thinking.

I ordered Sichel's book just to hopefully help me through this depressing, stressful event in my life that I could never have forseen happening.

Thanks for any and all the advice the members of this site are giving me. It helps so much to know I'm not alone, that perhaps we weren't awful parents, and that it is them not me.

annibal

annibal, I don't know if you knew about the segment on the Today Show on NBC this morning. I was disappointed that they didn't go into the subject in more depth but then it's good that it is mentioned at all. Here's a link to the Today Show page that references today's show and the video link.

Thanks for sending the link imaginny. You know I read his book and I have to say that I thought he had unrealistic advice for parent's. One of the things he states is that one should never criticize your kids, never offer advice either. Now this sounds great and even correct, however it just isn't realistic. I didn't go around criticizing my kids, I tried to be a very positive parent. But I know there were moments when I may have said they they could have done something differently, and I don't know how one gets around that. That may be a mild form of criticism, but it is still criticism. I'm not sure how what type of criticism he meant, and I don't believe he elbaborated. As far as not giving advice, WOW that's a biggie! Isn't it natural to say "why don't you try it this way, it works for me." That is offering advice, but it's not telling them what to do, they still have the choice obviously. Another thing this guy plays down is that kids don't need to respect today's parents as did older generations. I'm sorry, I don't agree with that at all. If there is anything that is lacking today it is this feeling that our kids have of us being their peers. I like to be addressed as Mrs., and being told thank you and your welcome. Today's generation is all about themselves, and if we don't live up to their expectations then we don't see them. What happened to kids reaching an age where they realize that as parents we are not perfect, but that they love us anyway? This astounds me since I grew up with a mother who became mentally ill when I was age 8, and my husbands parents were both alcoholics until we were nearly on our 2nd child. Neither one of us ever stopped loving our parents, or seeing them. We may have been more select about what time of day we visited my husbands parents due to their drinking, but we still saw them regularly. Was I supposed to grow up and be angry that my mother wasn't there for me? Doesn't that sound like what today's kids would feel justified saying?

annibal

Is there anyone still active in this forum? I feel like I found home, but everyone moved away!

IT WAS A LONG TIME AGO AND I HAD 3 DAUGHTERS AND END UP DIVORCED AND NO EDUCATION NO MONEY RUFFED IT FOR A WHILE THEN MARRIED AGAIN TO THE EX BROTHER WELL THAT DID NOT SET WELL. THE OLDEST BEFORE THE DIVORCE WAS IN FOSTER CARE DUE TO BEING A RUNAWAY AGE 9 NOW 36 AND THEN NEXT ONE DADDY'S GIRL AGE 15 SHE MOVED WITH HIM AND STEP MOMMY HAD NO MORE TO DO WITH ME AND THEN THE YOUNGEST WENT TO LIVE WITH HER DAD WAS TREATED HORRIBLE I NEVER KNEW IN MEAN TIME I WENT BACK TO SCHOOL EARNED 3 ASSOCIATES DEGREES MOVED AROUND BUT WENT BACK TO HOMETOWN . MY GIRLS ARE GROWN I AM VERBALLY ABUSED BY THE OLDEST AND THE 2ND OLDEST IS A HIDDEN ABUSE AS I HAVE SUPPORTED HER BEEN THERE FOR HER SINCE SHE ALLOWED ME BACK IN AS SHE CAME OUT OF THE SERVICE DUE TO HER DAD BECAME MENTAL CASE WITH ECT AND STEP MOM HATED HER NOW RECENTLY AFTER ALL THE YEARS I GAVE HER AND HER DAD FINALLY CAME TO HER AID CAUSE HIS MOTHER MY EX MOTHER IN LAW IS DYING MY DAUGHTER HAS TURNED ON ME BUT SHE WAS ALWAYS ALSO IN THE RELATIONSHIP PUTTING ME IN THE CONNER NEVER REALLY HAD A RELATIONSHIP IT WAS ME WANTING IT WITH HER KIDS AS SHE SEEN IT IGNORED ME AT HER CHURCH WHEN I WENT TO NORTH CAROLINA TO VISIT AND PUT ME IN KIDS ROOM WENT ON VACATION WITH HER AND HER IN LAWS SHE NEVER ACKNOWLEDGE ME I GUESS I DID SEE IT AND NOW I AM OUT OF HER LIFE AGAIN I POURED MY HEART AND SOUL AND MY ALL MAKE EXCUSES AND NOW HURT AGAIN IT IS LIKE THEY DIED AND YET I AM SO HURT UPSET ANGRY WHY I HAVE TRIED SO MANY YEARS WITH THESE 2 AND I GET HURT EVERY TIME HOW AND WHEN DOES THE PAIN GO AWAY I AM A GRANDMA AND A EARLY GREAT GRANDMA ALL I EVER WANTED WAS MY FAMILY AND I WAS A TEEN PREGNANT MOM AND I MADE MISTAKES I TOLD THEM THIS BUT I DID WHAT I COULD AND HERE NOW COULD THEY BE THAT HATEFUL AND SELF RIGHTEOUS .