Carin, I have felt lots of anger too. I think in a careful reading of the posts in Gardenweb that you will notice that many mothers feel deep anger about being rejected by the person whom they loved so much, the person whom they thought they would have in their life always, the person whom was entrusted to them from birth. The unfairness of it is infuriating. The unexpectedness of it. The behavior of the one whom we love is infuriating.

All kinds of feelings come up when an estrangement happens. I don't think it is unusual to wonder if you would be able to take her back into your life if she showed up on your doorstep. I do think that most or all of us would melt if our kids asked us to forgive them and wanted to reconcile.

I noticed that you began a new thread here on Gardenweb which is certainly okay. But it might work better for you if you tried participating in one of the longer threads on this subject as there are now five threads on estrangement. It would be easier for everyone if the discussion was narrowed down to one or two threads. Five threads make the discussion somewhat confusing. I think that each person would get more responses if everyone was in the same thread.

I'm glad that you are here.

Hugs to you!
Ginny

Ooops! I thought I was responding to Carin on the thread that she had started but I see that I have responded on one of the longer threads. I have had a "senior moment" apparently!

Ginny

Carin, you might consider visiting the Coleman blog as there are at least a couple of people participating there from the UK.

I agree - there are too many threads and very hard to keep up. I suggest someone with more computer savvy than me start a new one and alert everyone on these threads where to go. That would be so helpful.

I too think there are too many threads but I hope that no one starts another one until all of the existing ones are full or scroll down out of sight.

Ginny

It would be even better if someone at iVillage would be kind enough and smart enough to realize that the topic needs its own forum.

Lost mama...we have posted responses for you on the new thread under the same title that began on Thursday April 17.

Read a response to you by FORMS. Wise words indeed.

Bnicebkind:

How do I access the new thread with the responses to my post??

Thanks

Before I begin and ask for insight, I have to say something to all those parents beating themselves up. Don't. I was a social worker (now retired). I dealt with adults but kids came into the picture. There were some sad cases of abuse, and those kids clung to their parents and would run away from foster homes. The were "devoted," a poor choice of a word. But the children were so desperate for signs of love they would stay and stay and cling and cling.

I have identical twins. One turned out well, married a good man. The other fell into the hands of a family where the mother and son are sociopaths. It's been 11 years and 2 children. She divorced the husband 6 months ago as he dumped her at her mother-in-law's. She is having trouble separating from the mother-in-law, the woman still has control. Her sister has been instrumental in helping her move out there. She is now about 3 hours away and living in a rental house her sister owns. We also gave her sister $3,000 to help the other daughter to get on her feet, but this other daughter thinks it is her sister's money.

I have planned to just show up at the rental house and let the chips fall. My husband wants to give her a heads-up so she can choose whether to see us or not. If she doesn't show up, that's his answer. But it won't be mine. I told him as long as we are alive we will keep hoping she'll change her mind.

We did draw the line in the sand about her boyfriend. Even her sister tried to talk to her. But the mother of the boy talked her into moving in with them. She was a senior in high school but 18 years old. She promptly got pregnant. Even if we had not drawn the line, I believe he would have still brainwashed her. He is a (diagnosed by a professional) sociopath.

i just signed up tonight and have read through all the posts. i also am estranged from my adult son. that will be posted at a later time. since reading all of lostmama's posts, i kinda feel like i can see what the problem is and has been. i apologize if i hurt your feelings, lostmama, but i feel like i need to share with you what i have heard you say.

first of all, i think the root of the entire problem is money and always has been. you keep telling how much money everyone has and how much you and your dear mother have spent on your son. you did very well by him. i think he knows that. but, i think he is tired of hearing about it. i think he must really love this young lady from the trailer park. maybe she is not what you would have chosen for him, but he spends holidays with her and her family. he must enjoy their company. i think the biggy was when she felt unwelcome at your home. i think that your mother said some very hurtful things to her. i think you hurt her feelings by making her feel low classed by telling her about free stuff. maybe you did not intend to do this, but you did. you have also told your son on many occasions about things she has done that you feel are wrong. you think she is only after his money. you think she is lazy. you think she might not have even graduated from high school. etc. etc.

your son does not want to hear this. it pushes him away from you. he knows she is not welcome in your home. if she comes with him, the tension in the room would not be pleasant. so, he does not come.

you have had your feelings hurt so much. i am sad for you. but, i feel if you ever want to have your son back, and have a relationship with your grandchildren someday, you need to make ammends with this young lady. she needs to hear an apology from you and from your mother. a very sincere apology!!! if she accepts it, then, from here on you must not say things that would put her down and make her feel low classed. you must only say sincere positive things. keep visits light. have fun. do not try to boss your son and run his life. do not try to boss and run your soon to be daughter-in-law's life. make her feel special and welcomed into your family. give her the benefit of the doubt. be kind. be thoughtful. treat her as you would want to be treated if the positions were reversed.

yes, you might think i am sooooooooooo wrong and continue to battle. but, as dr. phil always says, "how is that working for you?" also, he says, "would you rather be right or be happy?" this situation needs a champion. it needs someone to be the bigger person and make things right. trust me, if you will do this, you will have your family back, plus you will not only have a son, but also a daughter. please give this a try!!!! a lot is at stake here!!! life is too short to bicker about money and wills and estates and who said what to whom. i wish you luck!!

patty221 - Our son reunited with old GF who had dumped him 6 years prior, were engaged in 3 months, took $10,000 out of his savings and bought the townhouse "she and her step mother" picked out and told him to pay for, she demanded money from us and when I said we would discuss that with our son, she told me we did not need to talk to him because he agreed with everything she said. She told us we had to pay for the groom's dinner at the place SHE picked and then when my husband gave my son a check for it, he tore it up, mailed it back to us and told us we could not attend the groom's dinner, kicked our other son out of the wedding party. At the wedding we sat with our little immediate family and she had 180 guests. We left wedding early because guests were in town who had booked airline tickets but now could not come to wedding. 3 weeks later them came to our house, told us they never wanted us at the wedding but were mad because we left early, DIL began swearing, I told her to stop, they got up, walked to the door and she turned around and shouted at my husband and me "F_ _ _ You". A friend had a similar experience but gave in to every demand her DIL made up to and including the wedding and is still estranged from her son. What would you have done in this situation?

garden: There must be more to this story for your son to actually tear up the check for the grooms dinner, and ask you not to attend.

On the other hand, you may very well have reason to be concerned.

dear garden 60,

i am reading between the lines here and feel that there is more to the story than what you have told me. how did you know that your son took $10,000 from HIS savings and bought the townhouse that SHE and her MOTHER picked out and told him to pay for? was it the GF or the GF'S mother that demanded money from you? where did this take place? what exactly did she say? did she threaten you?

why would your son tear up the check for the groom's dinner and mail it back in pieces and kick your other son out of the wedding party? something had to have happened to make him so angry.

you cannot fix what you do not acknowledge. i want you to go through the entire time from when the GF entered back into your son's life and recall step by step what has transpired. i want to know who said what and when from the beginning.

by any chance did you dislike the GF from when they dated 6 years ago? why did they break up back then? was your son devastated? did he blame you for any of it?

2 wrongs do not make a right. in order to fix a problem, you need to know what has caused the problem. i suspect that you have had a part in this sad situation. tell the entire story and be truthful. if you cannot do this, then i am afraid i cannot help you.

maybe the girlfriend and her mother are truly horrible people. if that is the case, i would say just cut your losses and move on. i would not want to subject myself to their demands. i would not want to feel like i was being blackmailed by them. i would hear them saying "if you do not do this, then, you will not see your son or grandchildren." i would choose not to see my son or grandchildren.

please get back to me.

however, until i know the entire story, i cannot make a

2006
May 15 ran into high school girlfriend who dumped him in HS because he asked her to go to church with him and she told him she has no time for anything like that in her life; had no contact for almost 6 years.
June - started dating again; Aug engaged
Oct I told them they were moving too fast; wanted them to be together but slow down; dont rush into living together; my son was raised in Christian home; I reminded him he always said he would never do something like this, but his decision will have to be between him and God. Nevertheless, he withdrew all his savings ($11,000) to buy a town home and put her name on the deed; he told me Jenny and her step-mom picked it out and told him that since he had no credit (always paid cash) and she had a $40,000 debt, she needed him to buy it and put her name on it, even though he would qualify as a first-time buyer alone. His money was the down payment; her name is first on the deed.
Christmas Eve he showed up late for church; she refuses to go to church; she was at our house waiting for us when church was over; he told me he just couldnt leave her parents house to be on time, even though a week earlier he approached me to say he wanted to go to church as a family and what time did it start. The evening was a little tense but I think we all got through it with conversation, music and hugs.
Christmas Day Jon came alone to our home
2007
January - Her family called a meeting to see how much money they could get out of us and telling us they were inviting 120 and we could invite 60 but step mom told us we should each give them $6,000. I said if werent allowed to invite the same number of guests that we would pay for our 60 and she could pay for her 120 and we would each help out in other areas like flowers, cake, wine on tables, liquor, etc.
Feb/April they joined us at various restaurants for birthday lunches but it was obvious Jenny didnt want to be there
Mothers Day Jon busy with her family; slipped down to the house and left a couple tulips and a card; we were at the lake; he left a message on our phone at 9 PM saying what a wonderful day he had had and hoped mine was wonderful too
June 5 Jenny calls with an agenda 1) are you going to pay for the grooms dinner or not because it will be where I want it, 2) I am sick of your family traditions, like having your sister and husband as host and hostess at the reception, and 3) my parents will give us what they can for the wedding but they are still raising 2 teenagers at home and since you dont have any kids at home anymore you can afford to give us more money
I responded: Jenny, your dad makes more than Jack and I together.
Jenny: So now you are picking on my dad?
I responded: Jenny, take a breath. You have it wrong. Your mother is very lucky to be able to stay at home and I applaud your dad for how far he has come in his company; I only wish I could have stayed home too and I know Jack wishes he had more education.
Conversation ended.
Fathers Day completely ignored
June 11 Jack dropped off a check to pay for the grooms dinner and told Jon the phone was on speaker and everyone heard the conversation between Jenny and mom
June 12 Jon sent all of us an email saying Adam was no longer his best man, we were not invited to rehearsal or grooms dinner but would be invited to wedding; he tore up check and returned it addressed to "me". (email attached)
Wedding day Jenny never spoke to Jack or I; I gave her a hug and told her she looked beautiful; no response. When dancing with Jon, I told him how much his whole family loves him and how important family is; his response to me was "no, the only thing that is important is happiness". He gave me a kiss and a long hug. After that dance, the 14 of us invited left.
* * * * *

Sept. 17 Jon and Jenny showed up at the door. Jack answered and said Jenny looked really mad. He called me down. I came downstairs, smiled and said what a nice surprise.

1. Jon is mad at me because the reason John (niece's husband) didn't come to his bachelor party was because I told John that Adam was no longer Jon's best man. (I said I didn't even know John was invited; Jack and Adam weren't.)
2. Jenny brought up my comment last fall about them living together, which I have apologized for countless times but she won't let it go.
3. Jon was mad about the wedding. No one seemed to want to be there and it was my fault because I told my sister and her kids about his email not wanting Adam in the wedding, and being excluded from the rehearsal/groom's dinner (how was that a secret they wouldn't find out about?) He didn't like that I told him the family wasn't happy with him throwing Adam out of the wedding at the last minute. And the fact that I didn't say good-bye when I left (he is right there, I should have said good bye.)
4. Jack told them he didn't feel very welcome at their wedding. Jon looked at his dad and said "you weren't". I told Jon how could we look happy when we were not allowed to invite our family and friends and neighbors. He never responded.
5. Jenny brought up that I should have been calling them more often. I reminded her that her mother told me not to; Jenny said I shouldn't have taken her literally. (How would I know that?)
6. I reminded her of that nasty phone call she made to me in June demanding 3 things. She tried to deny it and I reminded her others heard it; she said I should have taken the phone in the other room so they didn't hear her; I told her she shouldn't have made demands she didn't want someone else to hear.
7. Jack said what's with not wanting tradition because their wedding sure was traditional. They said it was not. Jack said "having a dollar dance is 'traditional' in my book." Jon was mad that none of us except Tanya danced the dollar dance.
8. Jenny said in the pictures I didn't look happy except when I was around Sophia.
9. Jenny went into religion and what is the big deal about sprinkling some water on your head..... and then she looked at me and said "I can't believe no one has told you off before. You should have been told off a long time ago." She went on about why do I have to set times, like at Christmas dinner will be at 2 or whatever.
10. Jenny started yelling and swearing. I told her to stop it; I had had enough and this had to stop. She and Jon got up and left. Jenny turned back and shouted "f _ _ _ you!"
    Jack and I just looked at each other in awe.
    * * * * *
    We invited them to Thanksgiving and Christmas. They never responded nor did they come.

I extended the olive branch in one more email that read: You wondered why Dad and I didn't stay longer at your wedding reception/dance? You said we were not part of anything.
It ripped my heart out - telling us we could not participate in the rehearsal, the groom's dinner (ripping up Dad's check) or invite any of our friends and family to our son's wedding. I couldn't even have a bridal shower for you, -- you can't invite people to a shower if they aren't invited to the wedding.
We have all felt the pain of the events and misunderstandings over the last year. As we approach a new year, can we put the "trying to hurt" behind us? We all need to "give and accept" apologies. Let me be the first by saying "I apologize". And let me start loving you as my son's wife and my daughter-in-law.
2008
Talked to minister who married them at the library. He suggested I send Jon a letter at his office which I did on 1/14/08. "Jon, I miss you. Can we have lunch? Love always, Mom"
Jan. 22 I called Jon, left a voicemail saying "Jon, this is mom. I hope you got my card. I dont want to hurt you anymore and I dont think you want to hurt me either. Just know that our door is always open to you and I will always love you."
I got this email from him 2 hours later:
Ok, time for some explanation. After our last meeting in September, I spent the next 3 weeks in the hospital for Chrons Disease. The stress that I received throughout all of this and the stress that I experience every time I get a message from you or a note, or an email sends me right back to pain. So, no more notes, no more emails, no more cards, no phone calls. Ill contact you when I feel that I am up for that again. But until that happens, please dont send birthday cards or cards for holidays. I cant afford another visit to the hospital or to take more time off work.

Jon

garden60's thinking looks right on Patty2211. I cannot imagine anyone saying no cards, emails, notes, phone calls?!

Garden, bless you and I hope his hell (and by proxy, yours!) gets better soon. His life has to be a disaster on a daily basis with someone with a severe personality disorder (if what you've written is true and I don't doubt it is!) causes that much distress to her husband. I pity they guy; he deserves better. I am sorry he's blaming you.

garden60, i just wrote you a VERY LONG note, but it was rejected i think because i called the dil the b word. anyway, i do not know how to retrieve it to make the correction so it will go through, and i do not have time to totally rewrite the note. what i said in a nutshell is that i think your son has made a big mistake in marrying this person. i would let it all go and not make any contact with him in voice, note, email, gift, card, etc. i would certainly not have anything to do with the dil. after reading your 2nd note, i have decided that this has not been your fault. it is hers. she needs to grow up and learn some manners!! i am sorry your son married her. i wonder what he sees in her? does she have a mother in the picture or just a step-mother? take care and move on with the rest of your family. not having you all in jon's life will give him pause for thought. trust me. he will turn around. just DO NOT have ANY contact with him!!! keep the note where he requested that.

patty2211 - thank you. I am so glad I kept a journal as things happened because it is easy to forget and I wanted to also remind myself of my mistakes - one being thinking an aethist would understand Christianity and the fairy-tale belief my son has that within 10 years he will bring her to Christ. But honetly, I do pray that if they stay together, I hope his prayers are answered. How nice that would be.

His b'day was last month, MD came and went, my husband's b'day came and went and he never acknowledged any of them. Needless to say, no one in the family acknowledged his either.

As far as the crohn's disease, I know he has it because his clinic called my personal work number asking for him and I was told he put his # as primary and my work # as secondary and there was no mention of his being married or a wife's #. I found that odd. I got another call just last week again and then she said "oh, that's right, I am supposed to call his number first and not yours. Hummmmm

Thanks again - I'm curious on how long your son has been estranged.

Perhaps because of this forum, and perhaps because of the step parent forum and all of the anger/bitterness towards bio mom's and for some, their step children, I am concerned about all the strife in families today, that make it so easy for many to simply close the door and not look back. My mom was thinking about this years ago back when the TV sitcom "Friends" was popular. This TV program seemed to make the characters in "Friends" into a family unit, and barely mentioned actual "family" and when they did, they showed the "Friends" cast not caring much for any family. The relationships (if mentioned at all) were very flawed, and "always" cast the family member in a really bad light.

Maybe there has often been strife within family/relatives, or maybe it is becoming much worse in today's society, but this forum is making me wonder if it is getting much worse, and in such a disposable society, people are quick to toss aside what doesn't make them "happy".

I am also concerned with the upbringing and values of some of these young women today. And the lack of wisdom/backbone in some of these young men in their life mate. These young women seem able to overlook great flaws in their own moms, but will not overlook/forgive the slightest offense in a MIL.

I am saying this, and yet a part of me understands that in some families, a MIL or family situation can become so painful and toxic, that distance is a means of emotional survival.

My hope is for healing within families. Be careful friends, with these relationships within your families. Because once broken, they can be so very, very hard to repair. Be gentle, and kind, and respectful of each other. Treat others as you would hope to be treated.

bnicebkind, what you said about "Friends" really hit home with me. I wasn't a big Friends fan, but I did see some episodes of it. You are so right about their friends being their family. This is exactly how my son & dil treat their friends! It is as if nothing else is important, their friends are indeed their family. What I'd like to ask him is where will your friends be when you need money, support,
love, etc. Friends are wonderful, and no one should be without them, but the ones that can really be counted on are family members.

I do think that our current society has played into the mindsets of these young people a great deal.Entitlement plays a big role.

anniebal

Here is some expert advice that may be helpful to parents:

Your child is not speaking to you most likely because you have done something to hurt them deeply. Do not assume you know what it is. You must talk to them....more importantly LISTEN to them. Do not tell them their feelings are wrong or get defensive. You have not walked in their shoes. I think you will be surprised by their honesty.

Then comes the hard part.....apologize. This is a three step process:

1. I am so sorry I hurt you
2. I was wrong
3. How can I make it right?

Most kids are estranged because their parents put themselves before their children and are too stubborn to apologize. Children are God's greatest gift.
Do not let them drift away. Get in their face and LISTEN.
There is no better way to show your love than by listening and believing in them.

Connie2008 - I did all that, in fact, my DIL's step mom told me that I have a big heart, I didn't have to apologize any longer, my DIL hears me, she just isn't "listening". My son was just mad because we wouldn't hand over a fistful of money for his wedding, a wedding that included 120 guests from her side and we were told we could invite up to 60, but we would split the bill equally. They didn't want any opinions/advice from us, only money. They told us that. Consequently, no money!

Are you making the money gift contingent on you getting your fair share of invites? Respectfully, it sounds like you are trying to buy control of their wedding. If you can afford to help, why not do so. If you cannot afford it, then explain that. This is a special time in their lives. Let them plan it. Be supportive of their decisions. You are the parent, take the high road. Does it really matter who has more invites? This is such a special time. Put their interests first.

You may think they are estranged because of this but I suspect there is more. It sounds like you have not done the due diligence in LISTENing to why. Have you been critical of them with other things? Or supportive?

I suggest you go to them ....your son specifically, and ask
if you can meet with him. Tell him your relationship is very important to you and you just want to listen and understand.
Don't respond defensively.....probe to better understand. Ask lots of why questions and get him to speak honestly.
Tell him you cannot mend things unless you understand.
Don't respond at that moment. Take it home and digest it.
Ask more questions later. Listen again. Restate his issues to get validation. Don't make any assumptions.
I cannot overemphasize the importance of this step.

So many parents mistake estrangement for kids "just wanting money". This is rarely the case. They want to feel special. Make them feel special. You may be feeling upset about losing your son to his new wife. That is completely understandable. Take that into account and proceed carefully.

The rules are different for parents. Many times they need to take the lead and give more. You will feel so much better if you do.

95% of family breakdowns are from a failure to communicate.

Warning....watch out for DIL's stepmom. Sounds like she may not have her DIL's best interest at heart. I recommend not talking about your DIL with her unless it is only positive and supportive. A relationship with you son is far more important than a relationship with her.

Just trying to help. If you can be strong and work through this in a loving manner, it will all seem trite when you hold that grandbaby in your arms.

Been there - done that already. All the steps you said, we have already taken.

When they asked to meet with my husband and I, we felt like we had walked into a hornet's nest. My DIL's step mom started out saying, and I quote: "I think we should each give the kids $6,000 for the wedding and I/we will be inviting 120 guests." I said okay, we have about that many also. She responded with "oh, no, you can't invite that many." I said, okay, how many can we invite? Her resonse was "You can invite 'up to' 60 people." My response was, well, if you are inviting 120 and you are allowing us only 60, then I guess I will pay for my guests and you can pay for yours. That sounds fair to me.

There was NO WAY I was going to pay half by her rules. The kids said nothing in this meeting. We offered to also pay for things like the cake, liquor, wine on the tables. But because we wouldn't just give them $6,000 that night, it went down hill from there. My son was so mad at my husband and I for not just writing the check.

Then my DIL called to tell me where "she" was going to have the groom's dinner. I told her usually the groom's parents do that. She said she would pick the place, and invite who she wanted but that my husband and I were to pay for it. We did compromise and give in to the retaurant of her choice; my husband dropped off a very generous check to cover the cost, but they returned the check to us because my husband told them they could no longer target me with their nastiness and my DIL's last phone call to me with her demands was heard by others and they were appauled.

My DIL told me and my son at the beginning that she had never seen a mother and son as close as we were. Both my son and I reiterated to her over and over that my boys were raised that when they get married, their wives become first and foremost and mom steps in the background. My DIL HATES her bio mom so maybe that is why she also hates the relationship my son and I once had.

connie2008 - P.S. I always understood the parents of the bride were always more involved than the parents of the groom, that the parents of the groom's only real responsiblity was to pick a place for and pay for the groom's dinner. That is why the groom's parents don't usually give the kids as much money for the wedding as the bride's, because the groom's parents are not wanted in the planning, etc. by the bride and her mother. Usually with my friends who have had children marry, the parents of the groom will give a flat amount, say $3,000, plus pay for the groom's dinner. This family wanted to split "all" the costs down the middle but only the bride and her mother would have all the fun. They would call me and say, "We are going to look at invitations, would you like to come?" and I would respond "sure"; they they would call me the next day and say they cancelled and would get back to me about a new date and time, but never would. This happened with 3 separate things for the wedding. Treated with such disrespect, do you honestly believe we should have just split the bill 50/50?

I find it very strange that others who have never been in this situation feel they can give advice to those who are going through it.

Connie, have you suffered an estrangement from a child? If you have, you would know that in so many, many cases you cannot "get in their face" because they don't want anything to do with you. You can't talk to someone who refuses any communication at all.

I also take issue with your statement that "Most kids are estranged because their parents put themselves before their children..." I personally don't know of even one instance where that has been the case.

The primary reasons for estrangement seem to be that the "child" has formed a relationship with a controller who is cutting the child off from his/her family, the child has some form of personality disorder or the child has a chip on their shoulder and a bug up their a** about some imagined wrong done to them by their parents. There are some offspring who truly do have significant and valid reasons for cutting off their family but they seem to be few and far between.

The therapist I saw acknowledged to me that he finds cases of estrangement to be intractable until the child finally decides to end the impasse and that all the apologizing for whatever it was that the child thought went wrong and "listening" in the world doesn't do squat. The estrangement will end only if and when the estranger wants it to end - and even if that should happen, the relationship will never again be the same.

I was fortunate to find a therapist who admitted that he didn't know what to tell me to do - other than to just get on with my life, stop focusing on the estrangement, keep communicating on a regular but infrequent basis, i.e., holidays and birthdays, even though you get no response.

NJtea makes good points.
How can you find out what is bothering someone when they refuse to contact you?
In the case of my son- it has been nearly one year since I saw him in person. At the end of the last meeting- he told me to stay out of life.
When we were invited to his engagement party, the gf. and he asked us what we wanted to see in her hometown then proceeded to leave us in the hotel without a word being spoken. We spoke about 20 words if that- they simply did not care to be bothered with us.
When we got to their house they locked themselves in their room and left us alone.

My son seems to have some personality disorder- he is convinced that despite being a fine handsome young man with an advanced degree, a fantastic job and a bright future that all he can get is this gf.
She uses put downs and sarcastic comments to make him feel that he is unworthy of anyone else while she seeks other men on the net. Her own father told us that she belittled our son on a daily basis while she blantantly was contacting her former boyfriends, looking for men on the net and showing no real love. The father says that she is downright abusive yet my son continues to lap it up, apologize on a daily basis for offending her and begging for forgiveness.

We were not bad parents by any stretch. I devoted my life to my son right until he left for college- and even then was always there to help with any problems he contacted me about. My father was a hands on dad who did everything for him. His grandparents were fantastic to my son. They cherished him and lavished him with everything he ever wanted. For this, he refuses to so much as call my mother- his only living grandparent.

Our problem is a chip on the shoulder compounded by low self esteem and a controlling manipoulative and lying woman who has my son under her control- almost as if he was abducted by a cult. He seems to be under her spell. She knows that we know that she has told many lies- we have caught her in them. She also knows that we see through her real motives. She is intimidated by my husband and I and I think she has made a concerted effort to alienate us from our son to prevent us from trying to persuade him to leave her. That is the long and short of it.

Apologizing, begging and pandering are not my thing. I asked him to come here for Christmas and I got a snotty comment about whether I had a large gift for him. What a joker!

We were left alone as if we did not have any kids.

What gets me is that for Mothers Day and my birthday as well as Christmas he sends flowers or gift cards. I cannot figure it out. Why bother when we are not in the picture the rest of the year. Are we estranged or not??? He says stay out of his life yet he does these things. I am truly confused.

I have taken to trying to not dwell on this situation. There is nothing I can do. I have a glass of wine every night to relax, and then try to forget about the times we were a family. When I happen upon something of his from the past, a photo ot a letter he sent, I often get depressed but I try to snap out of it. There is nothing I can do.

Garden60, I hear what you are saying. I do not understand why you are paying anything for this wedding. I do not understand why they would treat you that way to begin with.
Are there more incidents prior to this that have created some hostility or resentment with the DIL and son? This is what you need to find out. It doesn't make sense. I think that by nature kids want a good relationship with their parents. I think parents own the resposibility to find out why they do not and I think the process to find out why is where the breakdown occurs.

So tell me....you said you did all the steps. Tell me what your son said was the reason he wants nothing to do with you? If he said because you did not pay the $6000 than ask him to expound on that. Is it the actual money or the way I said it? Does it have anything to do with what you may perceive I think about your wife? Does it have anything to do with conversations/actions in the past? Lower his defenses by telling him how important your relationship with him is and that if she (DIL) is special to him than she is special to you.

Those are my thoughts....If he will not meet you, keep trying and trying. Make sure he understands that you just want to listen. Tell that last time you talked you did not completely understand.

Hurt is one of the hardest feelings to express by children. Most often, it is masked by anger because that is easier to communicate than hurt. People have a hard time communicating hurt.

I am not saying this is the case....only a possibility.....he may feel like you do not like his choice in wife and that is hurtful, particularly if you have other children with spouses that you do like. He may sense you are disappointed with him or critical of his choice and that is hurtful.

I think children just want their parents to be proud of them....throughout their lives.

connie2008 - I kept a log as things happened. Here you go - let me know what you think.

2006
May 15 ran into high school girlfriend who dumped him in HS because he asked her to go to church with him; she told him she has no time for anything like that in her life; had no contact for almost 6 years.
Aug engaged
Oct I told them they were moving too fast; wanted them to be together but slow down; dont rush into living together; my son was raised in Christian home; I reminded him he always said he would never do something like this, but his decision will have to be between him and God. Nevertheless, he withdrew all his savings ($11,000) to buy a town home and put her name on the deed; he told me Jenny and her step-mom picked it out and told him that since he had no credit (always paid cash) and she had a $40,000 debt, she needed him to buy it and put her name on it, even though he would qualify as a first-time buyer alone. His money was the down payment; her name is first on the deed.
Christmas Eve he showed up late for church and consequently had to sit in the back alone as the church was full; she refuses to go to church; she was at our house waiting for us when church was over; he told me he just couldnt leave her parents house to be on time, even though a week earlier he approached me to say he wanted to go to church as a family and what time did it start. The evening was a little tense but I think we all got through it with conversation, music and hugs.
Christmas Day Jon came alone to our home
2007
January - Her family called a meeting to see how much money they could get out of us and telling us they were inviting 120 and we could invite up to 60 but step mom told us we should each give them $6,000. I said if werent allowed to invite the same number of guests that we would pay for our 60 and she could pay for her 120 and we would each help out in other areas like flowers, cake, wine on tables, liquor, etc.
Feb/April they joined us at various restaurants for birthday lunches but it was obvious Jenny didnt want to be there
Mothers Day Jon busy with her family; slipped down to the house and left a couple tulips and a card; we were at the lake; he left a message on our phone at 9 PM saying what a wonderful day he had had (with her family)and hoped mine was wonderful too
June 5 Jenny calls with an agenda 1) are you going to pay for the grooms dinner or not because it will be where I want it, 2) I am sick of your family traditions, like having your sister and husband as host and hostess at the reception, and 3) my parents will give us what they can for the wedding but they are still raising 2 teenagers at home and since you dont have any kids at home anymore you can afford to give us more money
I responded: Jenny, your dad makes more than Jack and I together.
Jenny: So now you are picking on my dad?
I responded: Jenny, take a breath. You have it wrong. Your step mom is very lucky to be able to stay at home and I applaud your dad for how far he has come in his company; I only wish I could have stayed home too and I know Jack wishes he had more education.
Conversation ended.
Fathers Day completely ignored
June 11 My husband dropped off a check at their house to pay for the grooms dinner and told my son the phone was on speaker and everyone heard the conversation between Jenny and mom
June 12 Jon sent all of us an email saying Adam was no longer his best man, we were not invited to rehearsal or grooms dinner but would be invited to wedding; he tore up check and returned it addressed to "me". Now her nasty notes and phone calls to me were out in the open and she couldn't be the darling to the world any longer
Wedding day Jenny never spoke to my husband or me; I gave her a hug and told her she looked beautiful; no response. When dancing with my son, I told him how much his whole family loves him and how important family is; his response to me was "no, the only thing that is important is happiness". He gave me a kiss and a long hug. After that dance, the 14 of us(me, husband, other son, sister and her children) invited left.
* * * * *

Sept. 17 Jon and Jenny showed up at the door. My husband answered and said Jenny looked really mad. He called me down. I came downstairs, smiled and said what a nice surprise.

1. Jon is mad at me because the reason John (niece's husband) didn't come to his bachelor party was because I told John that Adam was no longer Jon's best man. (I said I didn't even know John was invited; Jack and Adam weren't.)
2. Jenny brought up my comment last fall about them living together, which I have apologized for countless times but she won't let it go.
3. Jon was mad about the wedding. No one seemed to want to be there and it was my fault because I told my sister and her kids about his email not wanting Adam in the wedding, and being excluded from the rehearsal/groom's dinner (how was that a secret they wouldn't find out about?) He didn't like that I told him the family wasn't happy with him throwing Adam out of the wedding at the last minute. And the fact that I didn't say good-bye when I left (he is right there, I should have said good bye.)
4. Jack told them he didn't feel very welcome at their wedding. Jon looked at his dad and said "you weren't". I told Jon how could we look happy when we were not allowed to invite our family and friends and neighbors. He never responded.
5. Jenny brought up that I should have been calling them more often. I reminded her that her step mom told me not to; Jenny said I shouldn't have taken her literally. (How would I know that?)
6. I reminded her of that nasty phone call she made to me in June demanding 3 things. She tried to deny it and I reminded her others heard it; she said I should have taken the phone in the other room so they didn't hear her; I told her she shouldn't have made demands she didn't want someone else to hear.
7. My husband said what's with not wanting tradition because your wedding sure was traditional. They said it was not. Jack said "having a dollar dance is 'traditional' in my book." Jon was mad that none of us danced the dollar dance.
8. Jenny said in the pictures I didn't look happy except when I was around my niece's baby.
9. Jenny went into religion and what is the big deal about sprinkling some water on your head..... and then she looked at me and said "I can't believe no one has told you off before. You should have been told off a long time ago." She went on about why do I have to set times, like at Christmas dinner will be at 2 or whatever.
10. Jenny started yelling and swearing. I told her to stop it; I had had enough and this had to stop. She and Jon got up and left. Jenny turned back and shouted "f _ _ _ you!"
    Jack and I just looked at each other in awe.
    * * * * *
    We invited them to Thanksgiving and Christmas. They never responded nor did they come.

I extended the olive branch in one more email that read: You wondered why Dad and I didn't stay longer at your wedding reception/dance? You said we were not part of anything. It ripped my heart out - telling us we could not participate in the rehearsal, the groom's dinner (ripping up Dad's check) or invite any of our friends and family to our son's wedding. I couldn't even have a bridal shower for you, -- you can't invite people to a shower if they aren't invited to the wedding. We have all felt the pain of the events and misunderstandings over the last year. As we approach a new year, can we put the "trying to hurt" behind us? We all need to "give and accept" apologies. Let me be the first by saying "I apologize". And let me start loving you as my son's wife and my daughter-in-law.

2008
Talked to minister who married them at the library. He suggested I send Jon a letter at his office which I did on 1/14/08. "Jon, I miss you. Can we have lunch? Love always, Mom"
Jan. 22 I called Jon, left a voicemail saying "Jon, this is mom. I hope you got my card. I dont want to hurt you anymore and I dont think you want to hurt me either. Just know that our door is always open to you and I will always love you."
I got this email from him 2 hours later:
Ok, time for some explanation. After our last meeting in September, I spent the next 3 weeks in the hospital for Chrons Disease. The stress that I received throughout all of this and the stress that I experience every time I get a message from you or a note, or an email sends me right back to pain. So, no more notes, no more emails, no more cards, no phone calls. Ill contact you when I feel that I am up for that again. But until that happens, please dont send birthday cards or cards for holidays. I cant afford another visit to the hospital or to take more time off work.

Jon

Friends of my DIL's dad and step mom said she was always a drama queen putting people against each other. She told me early on that she never knew a son and mother as close as we were and I know her aim was to separate my son from his family. So - how would you have handled, this connie2008?

lostmama: As I read your last post, two books popped into my mind. The first is "Choking on the silver spoon" by Ph.D Gary W. Buffone and the second is: "Two much of a good thing" by Dan Kindlon. Although your son is raised and is now an adult, perhaps there is still something within the pages of the books that will offer you insight into what is going on with your son and his thinking.

Regarding your confusion about why your son will not speak to you the rest of the year, but sends flowers and cards on holidays, this one is very easy to understand. He continues to send flowers and a card because it allows him to keep the door open a crack, and requires or asks very little of him. The alternative would be that he does nothing, and ignores your birthday, or Mother's Day etc. (which makes a very, very firm statement) and slams the door firmly shut between you and is very hard to recover from. It appears that he is not prepared to shut the door entirely. For whatever reason. My guess would be that regardless of what he is going through, you are still his only "mom". His only family, and he is not prepared to fully lose his family. And then there is the matter of the wills. Whether this has any part in his motivation to keeping that door open, who knows. Only you know the truth of the relationship between you. Are you able to simply "listen" to what he has to say without defending your side, or inputting your views, but simply to "listen" and "hear" his side of the estrangement? Are you able to "truly hear him" without comment, on why he is angry?

The only experience I have had even close to this, was my own anger at a person who refused to be accountable for anything. Very manipulative behavior, and when I tried to discuss the pain and anger this behavior was causing, absolutely would not own up to anything, even though the behavior was so blatant. I now consider it an actual character flaw when someone is incapable of taking responsibility and being accountable for their own behavior. Their refusal to "own it, and sincerely apologize for their behavior" without excuse, blame, or apologies that are worded in a way to still act like they were not entirely responsible. For example " I am sorry if you feel that I did ______________ . Not a sincere apology.

Anyway, yes the estrangement may be over this manipulative, controlling girl. Or it may go back to something in his relationship with you that you refuse to acknowledge or learn from. Were you too controlling?

I will apologize in advance if I am way off base. I certainly could be. But you could talk all day long at therapists, or on line, and never get to the heart of the problem, unless you are willing to actually consider if there is a possibility that you may have some part in this. And you may not. But you need to simply be open to the possibility.

If I were in your shoes, I may simply send him an e-mail and ask him some open ended questions, and ask your son to be brutally honest as he see's it. The questions would look something like this if they were mine.

Dear __________, I want to give you the opportunity to simply say what is on your heart and mind. I will simply listen, and absorb what you need me to hear. I will not respond, because I want to ponder how you feel, and really, really "hear" what you have to say. Do not worry about hurting my feelings, I am listening so that I might learn about myself, and understand. I would like you to e-mail or write to me so that nothing is lost or missed, that you need me to hear and understand. I will not respond (for awhile anyway) as I want to ponder, and meditate
on your perspective, and the truths I may need to learn on this journey through life. What is your side to all of this?

I may ask open ended questions, such as: Where have I disappointed you? Have I hurt you? Does something about me bother you? how do you feel when or after we have talked

Do not defend, rebut, excuse, transfer blame, etc. simply listen and allow your son the gift of being 'heard'. once you have his response, ponder and meditate on 'his' truth, regarding you and his perspective. sit with a therapist and
go over his words. find if there is truth in his words that
you can absorb and learn from on this journey through life.
Friends tell us what we want to hear. but it can be the hard stuff that brings about growth and healing if we have the courage to hear it and grow from it.

Lost mama: my post sounds a bit disjointed as my computer stopped functioning for awhile, in the middle of the post, and it would only accept 1 letter every 10 seconds, so you can imagine how long it took to finish the above post and how frustrating it was to actually type.

I want to sincerely express that I am not blaming you on the estrangement with your son. There are such complexities within relationships, and what appears as truth to one person, may be completely misunderstood. They may only have a part of the whole picture, and may misunderstand so much because of the bits and pieces they understand. But I wrote what I wrote because of people I know who are completely blind to their part, or they share something about a problem with someone they know, completely leaving out their part in the problems, or turning it in such a way that they come off looking good, and the other person looking bad.

I heard something on the radio a few weeks ago. "Never is the mind more brilliant and creative, than when it is justifying itself or its own faults or actions, or wrong doings".

Again, I am in no way insinuating that you are doing such a thing, or that anyone on this forum is doing so, and yet, for some, I am sure that this must be true.

But healing can only begin to take place if we possess the courage/guts/character, to actually consider whether we have a part in the estrangement, and are willing to simply "hear" and "consider" someone else's "side" to the whole situation, without defense, excuse, blame, etc. Just to simply listen, hear, and ponder.

Again, I am not writing these words because of anything I have read, but simply because of people I know. They will talk about something that happened with a friendship, and they will tell the story in such a way that makes the other person fully at blame. They never own up to anything. Or if they do, it is fully justified, and their part minimized to make them look good. And at this point in my life, I consider people who do this lacking character. They do not have the courage to "own" their own stuff. Or they will minimize their part, and toss out the insincere apology listed above.

And so I am simply putting this out there, to be considered.
I do not mean to offend anyone, but unless you have the courage to actually consider whether or not you have a part in the situation, how can there ever be healing?

Connie2008, just read your post. I would guess you are a mid twenty something, newly married? How can you judge from the post your responding from Garden60 that she was trying to get 'control of their wedding?'

IF people are going to give the same amount of money, then dividing the list is what is fair, and I don't care what the selfish bride or groom would rather have. As far as I'm concerned, no matter who is paying what, the lists should be divided appropriated.

Because it's a 'special time in their lives' everyone else should be sacrificed? Wow, the entitlement generation speaks loud and clear once again. Is there anything your generation didn't get that they wanted? Afterall, you guys deserve it!

How are you drawing a conclusion that Garden60 wasn't supportive? Reading her post one would get just the opposite opinion. Yet, you choose to believe that Garden60, the mother or mil must be the one at fault. Is there no end to this amazing sense of self that the majority of your generation display on a routine basis. It is ALL about you, and no one else. It's your feelings that count, it's your wedding, who care's about money, why should anyone else be able to invite someone, the music will be all for my generation and screw the other ages! It's mind boggling the amount of ME thinking displayed here.

YES, it's always the parent's who must beg their children for forgiveness! We only raised them from birth, gave them a proper home, and upbringing, yet they still demand more. Their appetites are insatiable. When your Gen Me's don't get what you want, then you estrange yourselves from the people who raised you. Afterall, why do you need them in your life anyway?!! I'm sure friends can fill in the space your family once encompassed!

I hope your not giving anyone else you know any advice? You could be the reason behind many future estrangements. By the way, are you even married? What experience do you have in this area that makes you the expert you attempt to come across as?

What we need in this world is kids who feel that there are more important things in life but themselevs!

Anniebal - on behalf of all mothers/parents living this nightmare, you words are so accurate. Thank you.

Connie2008 - I hope you give me the respect to read the journal posted as I am anxious to hear your comments after reading it. Are you a mother in her 50's or a young lady in her 20's or 30's?

This morning I took some time to do a search on Generation Me and came across an article in the NY Times from January and found this quote in the comments section:

"On the other hand, because we live in an interconnected world, we know where we're needed, and where our obligations lie. Are we obliged to take care of our upper-middle-class families? No. We're responsible for taking care of our friends and collaborators, who are going through the same difficulties that we are...."

I could not help but thing of the references to the Friends television show -in this thread or another -

another comment from the article:

"It's simple: the Boomers, the first narcissistic generation, created a new generation that makes them look like a bunch of amateurs. You reap what you sow. Pretty fundamental."

The first of the comments began with: "The apple doesn't fall far from the tree." I've always believed that and keep coming back to that when I read from daughters or DIL's how awful their mothers or their MIL's are.

garden60,

I will be age 51 in June. I read all your detail and want to read it again when I get a little more time. This has been such a busy week for me but I promise I will reply soon.

bnicebkind,

Your reply was excellent. Hats off to you. I think you really nailed it.

Connie and Bnicebkind, you both make very good points when you suggest listening to the other side. All parties to an estrangement contributed to such and all parties need to listen.

However, where I think you are both missing the boat is that you are assuming that we are dealing with rational, mature adults and for the most part, we are not.

We are dealing with children who feel trapped in abusive relationships and are frightened; we are dealing with children who have significant emotional/psychological issues; we are dealing with children who don't understand themselves. It takes a great deal of maturity to be able to express one's feelings and hurts and our "kids" just don't have that; they have no understanding of the "why" of their situation. When and if they begin to understand themselves, then that is the first step to reconciliation.

This is why my therapist says that estrangements are so intractable.

There are 2 sides to every story to be sure. I certainly think that I may have said some things that my son and or his gf. found offensive. I am used to being honest, frank and very down to earth. I shop at thrift stores, yard sales and get a kick out of getting designer clothing for a fractional of the cost.

When my son told me about the gf's grandparents who raised her, he told me that they are garage and yard sale fanatics and that I would love them as we had so much in common. Based on this, I assumed that the gf. also would find these things appealing. I made comments to the gf about my the great things I get at garage and thrift sales- and apparently the gf. found this insulting as she thought I was implying she needed to do the same. In fact, I can go to any store and pay full price as money is not a concern in our household. My friends all know that I am a thrift store/yard sale person and they often marvel at the great things I have bought for a fraction of the cost. Perhaps my words were misunderstood or misconstrued. I was actually trying to bond with the gilr who took my words as insulting.

I wish I could have the chance to explain myself and perhaps make amends but as I said in previous posts, despite sending me flowers and gift cards, my son does not speak to me.

Njtea makes a good point- the children involved are adults who are acting like children. In my son's case, he was inexperienced in terms of dating and women, too busy with school to be bothered and therefore was vulnerable to the grasp of this girl.

My son is being led around the nose by the girl. Despite him having a graduate degree and an executive position the gf. wrote his engagemant party speech and made him memorize it- as if he were incapable of expressing himself. My son footed the entire bill for the party which cost quite a lot, yet the girl did not think he was wise enough to know what to say to the guests. This speaks mountains about the control she has over him!

I sincerely believe in my son's case- there is a great deal of fear of dating, being rejected and let down. So, the very first girl who answered his posting on a dating site was selected as "the one." He is afraid of living alone, being alone, being rejected so he is willing to alientate himself from his family, old friends and world in order to cling to this girl who does not him to have anything to do with his past. I see this as very sad.

Anytime he has called here- she was listening. Anything we tell him gets told to her as if she was the ultimate judge of comments thoughts and suggestions.

She has created a situation in which she has cut him off from us and there is nothing we can do.

Someone wrote about the Generation Me concept. Our son has cut off everyone who has done good for him in the past- whether it be his hs teacher/mentor, the university he pledged money to before he graduated, his hs friends who all are very nice people with his intentions in mind as well as the only 3 living relatives he has. He seems to use and dispose of people. The strange thing is that the gf/wife he is with is a big time user- her own father told us that she uses people for all they are worth and then discards them. What goes around comes around??? In this case, I think it will come around- when is the question.

Until our son understands what he is doing, why he is doing it and realizes that he has turned his back on everything and everybody who were there fore him, there is nothing we can do- which is exactly what Njtea has stated.

garden60,
I have read your chronology of events with your son and DIL a couple of times. Sounds like there is a lot of hurt on both sides. Your DIL actions were very rude and disrespectful.....which leads me to the question WHY?

I commend the fact that you reached out to them several times but I do not think you ever got an explanation as to WHY they are treating you this way. You captured all the WHATs but not the WHYS.

In your email to your son you told him how hurt you were for the way you were treated but never did you find out WHY he treated you this way....Why is he so hurt or angered? This is the piece that is missing. This is the part that requires you to listen. I like the example bkindbnice suggested:

"Dear __________, I want to give you the opportunity to simply say what is on your heart and mind. I will simply listen, and absorb what you need me to hear. I will not respond, because I want to ponder how you feel, and really, really "hear" what you have to say. Do not worry about hurting my feelings, I am listening so that I might learn about myself, and understand. I would like you to e-mail or write to me so that nothing is lost or missed, that you need me to hear and understand. I will not respond (for awhile anyway) as I want to ponder, and meditate
on your perspective, and the truths I may need to learn on this journey through life. What is your side to all of this?"

You have to commit to not respond by talking about your hurt feelings.....at least not yet. It takes a lot of work to understand what another hurt person feels. You have not walked in his shoes. Let him express the pain he is feeling.
Is it possible that all of this has to do with the fact that he wants you to support his decision about his wife choice?

After you have listened, validated, listened again, validated again, you can begin your apology. Your apology cannot be an email that says "let me be the first to say I am sorry". Sorry for what? An apology should be specific.
I am sorry, I was wrong for xxxxxxxxx, how can I make it right?

I really believe he is estranged because he is deeply hurt and cannot handle the stress. You raised him. Do you think he enjoys hurting his mother? Do you really think he would fall in love with a woman that is just evil? You know your son better than anyone.

One last point, every generation is labeled spoiled, unappreciative, no family values, etc. Back when I was a kid, parents said that about our generation. I disagree that these kids are estranged because they were given too much or too catered to. I think they really need to feel special and supported.....not criticized.

lostmama, your situation is so close to mine! In fact, yours, garden60 and mine are all close, having sons who were swept up by deceitful, and manipulative girls. My son also told his girl/wife everything we ever said! He never expressed a lick of sense in this department. Your so right with your assessment that you think you son needs to run things by her, like she has the final say in what is good or right. I feel my son has done the same thing. How weak is he that he lets someone else make a decision as important as not seeing his family, for him?

Connie 20008, PLEEEZZZZ spare me your dramatics! There has never, to my knowledge, been as many books written about any particular generation being as spoiled and ungrateful as yours is! Believe me, yours won't be the follow up to the Greatest Generation by a long shot. In fact, you guys are so selfish that if our country was in peril, I doubt very much many of you would sacifice to fight for freedom. Heck, we can barely get you off the reality shows on tv and live your own life!

Everything is about who has what now, and what brand they wear...it's sick. Oh, I only shop at "forever, 21, abercrombie and fitch, american eagle..blah, blah, blah!

You know ours was the first generation to really take to the streets and protest over our governments continued war efforts in Nam. See, you guys don't have to worry because there is a prez in power who won't instill the draft again. Our prez knows darn well that if he did open a draft, that this countries young people might wake up to the real realities around them.

Instead, you guys will keep heavily drinking, live in your own closed little worlds of friends who would dump you in a second flat. Just dont' forget who gave you everything to get where you are today. I started babysitting at age 13 just so I could have money to buy things I needed. I didn't rely on my parents, because they couldn't afford to get me a car, or pay for my gas & ins.

Just as lostmama loves thrift stores, garage sales and such, so do I! I love to tell my friends and family about teh great items I find for literally under $2-$5!! It is so much fun being able to buy a bunch of new and great used items for practically nothing. I'd much rather be doing this then buying cheap clothes made by slave labor in China!

Morals and ethics, does your generation have any? Yes, some kids do, but they are today a minority.

anniebal

Connie2008 - thank you for your response. WHY is he estranged? I can answer that. After all the demands made by her (my son never asked us for anything and I wondered why he had her or allowed her to make all the demands for money) - I said to him a few months before the wedding: "If your dad and I had just written you a check for $6,000 that night back when her step-mom suggested we each give that even though we could only invite a few people, and then your dad and I stayed away and never saw you until the day of the wedding, is that what you wanted?" And his response was "Yes". Well, I'm sorry, but that doesn't cut it with me. My children have never asked me for anything so why did he think I would cower down to her demands?

My son and I had several lunches and a dinner or two and I listened and listened. He basically wanted me to do whatever she demanded so as not to rock the applecart.

Was part of my anger about his wife-choice? Definitely. No one in the family liked her when the dated and when she dumped him, we all thought it for the best. Everyone encouraged him to date other people, if for no other reason than to help him see whether it was her he wanted or not. He didn't date anyone for 6 years, waiting for her return.

My son was very popular in HS and kept all his friends through college, adding even more. She was not able to keep friends and so when it came to planning the wedding party, because all she had was her half-sister who is very young and an older woman she met at college, my son was not able to include his friends in the wedding party because she didn't have enough female friends to balance it out. What does that tell you about her?

She shuns religion and thinks "anyone who would walk through church doors thinks they are holier than thou so I have no time for them" - she was never baptized, confirmed or ever went to church so how does she know?

I tried, believe-you-me, I tried to like her and accept her, but her rush to get him was a big red flag that my family and friends all noticed and said "wow - aren't you concerned?"

She told him it was his family or her - he chose.

Well, in my sister's case, she has mental health issues, but was a bright young lady. She was overweight since childhood, but she was an absolutely beautiful girl. She went through a stage where she thought she was a lesbian. She liked to say that she wanted to bring a girl to Thanksgiving dinner as her date and upset our folks. I told her I figured they would get over it eventually. They loved her very much. Maybe too much.

She met a guy on Yahoo personals and they had German ancestry in common. Turns out he's into White Supremacy, but we didn't know that at the time. They married within the first year of dating. He moved into her apartment and it didn't take long to find out that he was emotionally abusive. He blames it on his diabetes, but he even tried to start a fight with my husband at dad's funeral.

My sister was unhappy in her marriage and we learned quickly that mom and dad were NOT allowed to give her and hubby anything. I didn't know anything was wrong until mom wanted to go visit them at their house one night. They weren't home and mom started crying and saying that she wished she hadn't married this guy. It was then that I found out about his white supremacist tendencies and the way he was controlling of my sister. Of course, she has gone back and forth over this saying it's not him, it's her that's the problem, but the night our dad died guess who was with her at the hospital. Dear old mom in law, the enforcer. This woman-the boy's mother-is the one, I'm really sure of it, who is most behind the estrangement. She tried telling my aunt and grandma that our dad molested us and that we were "stair-step" children. We were in fact 7 and 11 years apart in age and our dad NEVER molested us, ever! Of course, madam wolf didn't bother to ask my oldest sister and myself. She raises a child who thinks hitler is someone to look up to and takes a giant crap on our family. I have found out that there often is an older woman in the family that is behind the estrangement of the spouses parents and family.

Well, my sister says that I'm a n**ger now and she hasn't let us see their daughter. We suspect she is pregnant again, but they won't let mom see that child either-even though the big bad dad is dead as a doornail. My dad is pushing up daisies. How would you feel if you were accused of molesting your own children and denied seeing your grandchildren? It is the most bull crap thing I have ever seen. I'm sure they are feeding her the whole, their toxic people, line and I'm sure it feeds her narcissism to believe it.

God will have to deal with it. I miss my dad so much. This is NOT the way things were supposed to be and her actions have affected ALL of us. Of course, she doesn't even think about any of that. It's all her up in there.

Our mother is very broken. I pray for her because only God can help the hole in her heart. That chicken sister of mine couldn't even go in and see dad's lifeless body laying on the gurney the night he died, but I remember his eyes. I was with mom and we went in right after they pronounced him dead. I remember his beautiful blue eyes had faded to a green as deep as the ocean because the life had fled from them. He choose not to get that open heart surgery. I guess he didn't think dying could hurt any less than being accused of being a child molester and a sob supreme by the woman who raised a model SS career man.

It's not all about any one person. What you do affects everyone and we are ALL responsible for each other. I loved and protected my sister to the best of my abilities. Our dad did yell a lot and he was an ignorant man. He didn't know how to raise children because he came from an alcoholic dad-but our did was NOT an alcoholic nor was he a child abuser. My children remember their grandparents and I would never, ever have refused my parents or my husbands' parents from getting to know their grandchildren. Never.

I've been reading these posts and thank you everyone as it is somewhat therapeutic. I have three teens: 19, 17. 15. The oldest and youngest seem to be fine but my second one who is a senior this year has turned over a new leaf. He wants to leave us and live with his dad. I was a single mom for 4 years and she was one that seemed to have adjusted well with the changes. Suddenly this year (7 yrs later), all hell broke lose. We barely speak and I am feeling heartbroken and uncertain with our future relationship. We are all in shock as we uncover what he has been up to. His siblings are at a lost.

To answer the original question, the symptoms were there:
1. Because my kid appeared on paper to be doing relatively well; top 3% of senior class, top scores on SAT, I gave him more freedom senior year.
2. I was not as watchful with these new friends he's hanging out with that definitely added to the mix. These were older kids--college age, living at home.
3. A secret "friend/advisor" in college
4. Though he was busy, I had suspected he might be bored as he was asking to do other activities out of the blue. Wish I had not dismissed it

What I would do differently:
As a working professional, I often took calls while I drove the kids and lost opportunities talking with them. Once they are 16 and driving, it's a lot harder.

Would have definitely yelled less and handled things at the right time rather than when I'm upset, stressed with work or steaming. I had a lot of those "geez why did I just say or do that."

Camping or going out into the woods with no technology access before they hit 16. This tradition might have helped with communication.

There's a tendency to let them shorten senior year schedule or drop out of their big activities (like sports, band or orchestra). Or take a new class that might love to take. If possible, encourage them to stay in a way that makes it their decision because of the social friends they've made. Idle times, idle minds, leads to trouble

Social/Emotional Outlets Junior/Senior Years: There are scientific fact that teenagers brain are a bit out of whack. The emotional side takes over. I would look to engage them in high risk safe activities starting age 16 that is new and something they would love to do: rockclimbing, skydiving or something that will touch that emotional center or adrenaline high. Girlfriends/Boyfriends will only lead to trouble.

I was fortunate that we caught up with his mishaps and we are close to graduation. I am now worried at how he will be in college as he seems to have learned the art of manipulation through emotional punishment. He has estranged as for the moment emotionally and I now wonder how long it will last. .

I have two beautiful girls, that I raised on my own for the most part. I had a sister who was not able to have kids, and I made sure she was involved in their lives for Birthdays and Christmas, and tried to help ease the pain of her not being able to have children. I thought I was doing the right thing. Then when they got to be about 10 my sister made much more Money than me, and I had actually worked and bought a home I was really proud of, and a, place my kids could call home. Then she built a brand new one from the ground up. Then. My school shopping was at Wal-Mart, KMart, and pay less shoes. She started taking them to malls, and paying $150.00 sneakers, $500.00 each on clothes, so when I would take them to Wal-Mart Kmart, I was told they did not have anything they wanted. If I told my kids no, they would go to her and she would do whatever they asked. Then my oldest started getting in trouble. My sister blamed it on the house and subdivision I bought my house in. She would say, I wish I could just pick up your house and put it in my subdivision. I spoke with police officers who worked in her subdivision and they told me hers was way worse than the one I was in. When I sat down with her, a nd tried to ask her to please quit taking them to places as des I could not afford, and It was making them not appreciate what I was able to do for them. She told me yes, but then told my mom that she was a grown adult and nobody was goin to tell her what she could do or not do. Then it turned into a manipulation similar to what parents get into with their kids, but in this c as we it was their Aunt and me. Only thing different was she started siding with them, against me, and going behind my back on things they were told NO to, and by the time it was over she had ruined my relationship with my daughter's. They ended up, both thinking they could have, say or do anything they wanted when ever they wanted.. There are so many things I could tell you that is just unbelievable, so just a few. My daughter at 18, came to me with her new boyfriend asking if he could . Move in. I said NO! She said she was leaving. I knew she would go to my sister's house. So I called her, told her what was going on, and promise me if she let my daughter move in to please promise she would not let both of them. My sister promised, . Oh I would never do that, and 2 days later they both were moved in. A little over a month my daughter was pregnant. My sister told my mom GOD a answered her prayers and brought her a baby. Well to bring it all to the err nd my sister h as my whole family, My daughter with her third boyfriend who has moved in an out. Now the last time my daughter moved out and my sister is raising my grandson , with a weekend break if my daughter has not made plans. My oldest daughter stays with her, after being involved with drugs,jail, and stealing from my sister and they are as 'll set up in her house, because I would not allow the things to happen in my home. So my sister basically stoked my family. It's like I don't even exist. I have tried, but when it is something against Morales, and completely wrong I cannot pretend I am ok with it. She gives Dr hem every e turning they want, an f2f now my grandson is learning the exact same thing. My heart is crushed. Who would ever think you would have to be afraid of your sister, by letting them be involved in your children's life.

Sometimes we have to go on with our lives because we learn that there is nothing that we are able to change and as painful as it is, it is so much more painful to stay. I certainly understand and from my own position, I have been through and still going through a sad situation as well. I wish you a productive life and hope you are able to focus on the good in your life and that you are able to find those who love and care about you. Just remember that you are not alone and I will be thinking of you and wishing you better days, if not perfect.

I think sometimes the parents are just plain abusive and/or selfish. My mother had me when she was 16. She had no business keeping me and trying to raise me. She was very immature. Her marrying my abusive, also immature, stepfather only made matters worse. He would hit me with belts, and throw me across rooms (I was 5) and she sat there, twiddled her thumbs, and said nothing. Never once did she tell him to stop or try to be on my side. She idly stood by and let this awful man ruin my childhood. She had two kids with him who got treated fine. If she had stuck up for me or put me first just one time, we might still have a relationship. I left 25 years ago because it was made very clear to me, every day of my "childhood" that I was not loved or wanted. It was ALL about the new husband and the new kids. Never about me. They can have each other. I have done very well for myself and been happy since I got away from that freak show. She has never seen or met my kids or husband (my oldest daughter is 21). I have no intent, whatsoever, on helping any of them out. Ever. So I hope that when the time comes for her to need assistance when she's too old to care for herself, her new and improved kids and that man who insisted on being the most important person in her life are willing to step up. I tell everyone that I lost my mother when I was 5. Because in a sense, I did.

I am so sorry you had such a horrific childhood. It sounds like your head is on straight. Take care.

There are people who should not be parents, no way.

Glad you were able to make a success of your life, in spite of the abuse.

That takes a lot of strength. Carry on, you're doing greyt.

brendascasella, I'm so sorry for all that you went through. That's is a tough one. Have you talked things out with your sister? If so, do you think she knows what she did? What she did to your relationship with your daughter, grandson, and her? I think all you can do now is just let your daughter and grandson know, you love them. But, if it was me, to avoid hurting, I would stay busy with my life. I would see my daughter and GRANDSONS, send cards/presents, but go on with my life.

I have gone through pain with both my daughter & son. It started once they went off to college. My own parents disowned me for a total of 25 years. For living with my now husband, 3 months before we got married. My parents told a lie to my siblings, and I believe that's why they stopped speaking to me as well. My parents were the type to make sure my siblings dumped me. All these years gone by, my parents died, and they still believe them. I tried to tell them the truth, but they don't believe me. My mom wrote me a letter, 25 years ago. To go to hell, and never contact them again. After, I ask my mom if my kids and I come visit them. My mom told my siblings she didn't write that. That I did. They believed her. So, for my families sake & I, I bowed out. Hoping one day, I would hear from my mom. But, no.

I can say, I'm glad I made that decision. If I didn't, my life would of been full of pain. My husband and I went on to have a happy life, raising my kids.

I told myself, what happen with my birth family, will never happen to my kids. But, has it? Sadly, it seems like it is. Then, I start wondering, is it all me?

I have been reading through as many posts as I can. So many, that I can relate to. It's so nice to feel not alone. To me, there's no other hurt than to lose a child, by death. But, for me, the pain a adult child can do to a mom, is so bad like a death. Because, you never know if you will see them again. The decisions you have to make, as a mom, is so difficult. Your so afraid you are making the wrong decision.