* Posted by straycat_wandering (My Page) on
Tue, Aug 26, 08 at 0:59

First of all I would like to say I KNOW it's got to be next to impossible to understand this blog if you've never been in this situation, which I know has been said before but for some it seems to be impossible to accept. The advise from people who have never "been in our shoes" keeps coming as if their lack of experience in this domain makes the feel "entitled" to give advise or critique the ones that live this on a daily basis.
Let me offer those of you who think you are great mother's because this didn't happen to you a straight forward answer to what I know to be true concerning your opinion/advise:
For once, lack of experience doesn't make you any more knowledgeable about the subject material.
Two- You are no "better mother's" than we were/are-believe it or not
Three-We don't "value" you're opinion; because you haven't been there-so you DON'T know what you are talking about.
Three-We are TRYING to heal and you are NOT helping
Four-Please, if you cannot support our "mission" find a mission you can support
I realize you are trying to help but please-realize you cannot help here. Experience is required.

"it's like my dog, she's a lab. you could never turn her into a vicious guard dog. it's genetics. and vice versa. i could make her a better or worse hunting dog. i could make her more or less social.... but i couldn't make her aggressive. michael phelps would never been who he was if no one took him swimming. genetics? environment?"

You can teach any dog to attack and act aggressively, it's just some are going to be more effective at it than others. (I mean, a Chihuahua can be a non-stop, vicious little fiend, but if you're wearing boots, who cares?) In the UK, where for decades the German breeds were unpopular as a matter of national pride, the Labrador Retriever was, and FAIK still is, the favorite breed for Police/attack work. Considering that it's within recent memory that Bobbies started carrying firearms, it's doubtful they would have depended on the Lab if it wasn't capable of doing the job.

I don't understand your point about Phelps concerning genetics vs upbringing. He doesn't have webbed feet; his success is the result of years of dedication on his part (hours of practice), and years of tweaking and technological advances on the part of the sport such as the high tech suits and the micromanaged training program. If he hadn't been introduced to swimming, he probably would have spent high school on some basketball team. Perhaps Phelps represents the new direction competitive swimming is headed; maybe in 10 or 15 years all the male swimmers will be tall, lanky, loose jointed lads with low slung, computer designed plastic swim suits and a killer bikini wax. (and won't that be fun to watch?)

But only time, and the corporate sponsors, will tell.

straycat,
First, please allow me to explain this is not a "blog"; it's a corporate sponsored, public forum, open to ALL. Personal experinence may be helpful, but it is NOT "required" to post on this or any other topic at THS or GW.

I have not seen anyone making any claims about being a "better mother" than anyone else, so I don't understand the apparent chip on your shoulder regarding that point.

If you personally don't like what someone else has written, you are free to address your concerns/complaints to that person, -but- it is not up to you or any other poster to decide whether or not something is "helpful" to the group. Unless you are posting here as multiple personalities (which HAS been done), you are not a "we". Just because YOU personally don't value the opinion/advice of others does not give you the final say in who is allowed to contribute, or what they may be allowed to discuss. I suppose that if you consider that offensive, you are free to start your own board or blog or whatever where you may manage both the members and the content, but as long as this is a public forum, everyone is still welcome to contribute as they see fit.

"
Four-Please, if you cannot support our "mission" find a mission you can support"
I probably shouldn't, but I have to ask; what exactly is the "mission"?

Straycat, don't let yourself fall prey to the gallimaufry of certain "participants." Ignore them.

("Gallimaufry" from Medieval Dutch maffelen, "to open one's mouth wide.")

Oh look; a new userID. It just makes me get all fuzzy inside when when I get a chance to learn a new vocabulary word.

Here's a new word for you: disapprobation.

I won't spoil your fun by giving you the definition, but I will use it in a sentance.
"I have nothing but disapprobation for so called "adults" who hide behind multiple user IDs like a nerdy 8th grader in computer science class."

(Don't you think it's about time to grow up and knock it off?)

Ah, bloobird, you fell for that one even better than we had hoped.

Now we all know who has appointed herself the internet police. You see, folks, when someone responds to one of her posts in a fashion she does not care for, she gets them banned.

Hey, if the shoe fits, wear it Cinderella. I didn't even have to bother looking anything up, as the snarky hit and run style of the uh, "newest" poster was such a good match for someone else already known for their multiple IDs. (But thanks anyway for confirming a lucky guess.) FWIW, believe me when I tell you, not only am I not the "internet police", I have no authority or position that enables me to have anyone "banned" from this or any other site.

I'm no expert in these things, but you know, if someone really is finding his or her self "banned" from THS or GW, rather than trying to blame others, they might want to look at changing their behaviour.

I'm just sayin'...

Thanks, no1name, for the new word-"gallimaufrey"...seriously!

Well bloobird, after your response I read over the posts (it's just a word, relax) again.
I think because we are all in some degree of pain here that sometimes we can't "hear" the meaning behind the words-it's like adrenalin it can save our lives if we have to run from an attacker- but it can block our thought process if we have to also "feel" the words.
You sound like you are hurting and hurting and all you can get out sounds a lot like anger. You argue, you pick, you insult and all this time your one true emotion is left unexpressed, your pain.
I would like to hear what you are really feeling, and if that includes some anger and harsh words to me; so be it. I do wear "big girl panties" and there are a lot of days they have to be made of cast iron-so please share.
I think you did pick the right place to share your thoughts. The short time I've been reading these posts, Ive noticed many, many people with warm hearts, who truly want to help one another. But please, give us the real feelings, hurt-whatever-don't just slap on the "critique"-ok-because that just gets in the way and it doesn't make it better...
Take care - I know it seems easier to cover up our feelings with anger, but it doesn't help our feelings. Just give this some thought, ok...

I've lurked on here for some time, but this post is the first that made me angry enough to register and respond.

first off - i'm not estranged from my parents. i'm 26 years old and have a sister, my only other sibling, that is estranged. i read some of these posts about, 'don't try to offer help to the blind, unless you yourself is blind,' or something equally as inconsiderate, and i have only one thing to say: unless you're not going through it, then you truly cannot understand it. you can't. you may think you can, but you can't. you just can't. estrangement deals with a depth of pain that one cannot sympathize with. in order to actually understand what it feels like, you have to go through it yourself. i don't care what you say, but that's the bottom line with me: unless you're going through an estrangement yourself, then you CANNOT understand what it feels like. and this means you cannot sit there and be judgmental and tell ppl what they're doing wrong. you're talking about parents and children, and there is no relationship deeper than that. to even presume to know what has gone wrong and to tell that parent what they have done wrong is ludicrous. you, in no way, can judge any of these parents on this forum. you think you understand the pain of estrangement even though you haven't been through it yourself? you don't. not even a little. i see the pain my parents, particularly my mother, go through everyday. you think you can come even close to comprehending that pain? you can't.

so save your judgment. save your holier-than-thou-if-it-were-me-i-wouldn't-disinherit-them. save it. you don't know what these people are going through. you don't know their pain, and unless you go through it yourself, you will NEVER know their pain. that's right. it's the kind of pain that you know only when you yourself go through it. there is pain like that in the world. agree with me or not, i don't care. feel insulted, i don't care. just don't presume to think you know enough to even come close to what these people are feeling like. they come on here seeking support from others who are going through the same thing. they don't need someone who doesn't know what estrangement feels like to sit there and point out what that person thinks they're doing wrong. save it.

But, it's okay for the so called estranged parents to invalidate other people who have been abused by their parents? There is a reason for the estrangement and in some cases it is due to the parents abusing their own children. In other cases it could be the children who are mainly at fault. Each case is different and needs to be treated as such.

I consider having my story and feelings invalidated a form of abuse so there is a prime example of what I am referring to.

For those that it applies to you need to look at yourselves to see what role you played in the prior events leading up to the estrangement.

And as for not knowing about the pain of estrangement. Whether it is the child that is initiating the estrangement or the parent doesn't really matter. Pain is pain and it is valid on both sides of the fence. If I have to totally cut off my mother in my life it is painful for me also. I don't want to have to do that but since she refuses to see her part in the equation and wants to continually heap abuse upon me she leaves me no choice. My happiness and sanity are important too.

I;m sorry, but it's just not as painful for you as it is the parents. Haven't you ever heard about how most parents don't recover after the loss of a child? How many kids do you hear of not recovering over the death of a parent? It's a completely different relationship on each side. Yes, the children love their parents, but not to the depth that a parent loves a child.

I don't know many kids that would jump in front of a speeding train to save their mom or dad, but the other way around is the norm (especially for mothers.)

You only think you have the same pain, but you have idea of how deeply it hurts. Your the one doing the estranging, that makes it easier right off the bat.

The amount of abusers on these sites is probably miniscule if any. Abusive parents aren't searching the internet looking for support about why their abused children don't love them. You think those parents really care? If they cared they wouldn't have abused the kids in the first place.

I cannot understand the cowardly step of estrangement unless it is because of physical/sexual or emotional abuse. There is not reason that the majority of differences cannot be talked through and worked out in some form or another. That's not my opinion, that's fact. I've read many many books on psychology, families, children, etc. and there is just no reason for this type of behavior other than the rare reasons I gave above.

Hey Annie:

I tried to give you some support on another post regarding your son not seeing you but I take exception to your comments below and feel the need to oppose your false statements as follows:

Posted by anniebal (My Page) on Sun, Sep 21, 08 at 3:01

You Said: I;m sorry, but it's just not as painful for you as it is the parents. Yes, the children love their parents, but not to the depth that a parent loves a child.

That is a bunch of b.s. and I find that statement insulting. Like I said before pain is pain and it applies to both sides of the fence whether you like it or not. I think I did more than my share by putting up with my mom for as long as I did. Relationships are two way streets and sometimes love is not enough.

You Said: You only think you have the same pain, but you have idea of how deeply it hurts.

I never said I only think I have the same pain and comparing pain and who hurts more is totally pointless and doesn't solve the problem of the estrangement. If you want to solve your problem then you need to look at what is behind the estrangement and deal with that.

You Said: Your the one doing the estranging, that makes it easier right off the bat.

You need to think before you speak. You think that it is easier for me since I am doing the estranging? How would you know? Are you me? Have you or are you putting up with what I have and am putting up with? No it is not easier for me and anyone in their right mind would not want to be estranged from their parents unless there was a very good reason for it. For me being estranged is a last resort after all avenues have been considered and still nothing works and the same destructive and abusive behaviours still continue to go on and on.

I have put up with many years of garbage and even offered to go to counselling together but my mother refuses to go. She discounts my feelings and my needs and refuses to stop doing what she is doing that is destructive to the relationship. Her position is and always has been that she is doing nothing wrong and that the responsibility for the relationship is all on me. No matter what I do or don't do it doesn't make a difference. She is never pleased or satisfied.

She constantly criticizes me and puts me down. Even behind my back to my grown son if you can believe that. She takes no responsibility at all for her actions but somehow makes everything my fault.

Even though she is a pain in the backside I have invited her for holiday dinners and she still treats me like garbage.

My sister was always the favourite and has estranged from her totally. I have been more loyal to my mom than my sister and have been dumped on as a reward. How do you think that feels smartypants? I ended up being her executor since my sister won't do it and my mom still treats me like garbage and accuses me of wanting her money when she dies. I am sick of her garbage and told her she can take her money and stick it and that I wanted to be disinherited. Then she says that if she disinherits me that I will contest her will? Why would I want her money when I want nothing to do with her? I don't need her money but she can't get that through her thick head. Being falsely accused over and over and emotionally abused has pushed me over the edge and enough is enough. It's time for some natural consequences. But I suppose you don't think all of this plus things that you don't know are painful enough.

You Said: The amount of abusers on these sites is probably miniscule if any. Abusive parents aren't searching the internet looking for support about why their abused children don't love them. You think those parents really care? If they cared they wouldn't have abused the kids in the first place.

That is not true. First of all my mom doesn't have a computer or go on the internet. Second, my mom was going to an old lady widow club or as I like to call it the Pity Party. What do you think that she did there? Complain about me and how I am angry at her all the time. Try to make it out that I am the bad daughter and that she is the innocent one. By only telling one side of the story and exaggerating the details she tries to illicit other's to feel sorry for her at my expense. So you are wrong. Abusive people do illicit sympathy and put on an innocent face and act like they are the victim just to get attention. Happens all the time.

You Said: I cannot understand the cowardly step of estrangement unless it is because of physical/sexual or emotional abuse.

Estrangement is not normal so if there is an estrangement then there is a reason behind it. It is not cowardly to protect yourself and ensure your survival if someone is trying to destroy you. Even if it is a family member it doesn't matter. If they will not get help or stop then you either put up and shut up and self destruct or protect yourself and survive. It is as simple as that. And go call someone else a coward because it doesn't apply to me and my situation.

You Said: There is not reason that the majority of differences cannot be talked through and worked out in some form or another. That's not my opinion, that's fact. I've read many many books on psychology, families, children, etc. and there is just no reason for this type of behavior other than the rare reasons I gave above.

I don't care how many books you read. Real life is not a book and theory is not the same as practical. But you are right that differences can be worked out. But that doesn't mean that they will be worked out. You need both parties to be willing to communicate and make adjustments if necessary. But, when there is no honest communication and/or cooperation on both sides then a resolution is not forthcoming. Relationships are two way streets and both sides need to do their part. Rare reasons my backside. Abusive parents are more common than you think. I do not think it is rare at all. It makes you wonder why some people even bother to have families in the first place if they don't know what a family is. My family of origin was a group of people who were more like enemies in the war zone than any kind of family. Families should love and support one another. I never had that growing up.

Oh, I almost forgot. I believe you made a reference to mother's protecting their children but not the other way around. Well you are full of you know what regarding that too. You want proof. Well contemplate this.

When I was growing up there were many times when my dad was drunk and about to get violent with my mother. I am a girl and was quite young maybe 6 or so and I had called the cops on many occasions. I also remember many times literally running out of the house not even having time to put shoes on and going to the neighbor's two doors down and getting them to phone the police. That was done to protect my mom. Where the hell was my protection? One time I even was about to phone the cops and my dad literally ripped the phone out of the wall. Remember I am a girl and was quite small when doing this. Who is the coward now, huh?

When I was older as a teenager. My dad decided to act like a crazy person and was following me down the hallway pointing a knife at me. Did my mom protect me and phone the cops like I did for her many times before? Absolutely not. I asked her later on why she did nothing to protect me and her answer was that if she did he might go after her with the knife. So much for your idea of motherly protective instincts.

I was a little kid and was not thinking of myself. She was a grown woman and only thought of herself. You get the picture now?

mommybunny, as I stated there are extreme situations where estrangements are warranted, and yours certainly seems to fit that criteria.

I'm sorry if I offended you, obviously your mother is a difficult person who doesn't or didn't possess the normal mother child protective instincts.

Your situation actually sounds like role reversal which I think could have happened due to the alcohol situation. I feel very badly that you suffered the way you did, having to run and call the police as such a young child. How terrified you must have been, I can only imagine. Your mother was probably co-dependant and did everything your dad wanted, pleasing him when her first obligtion was to love and protect you.

I know that you cannot judge every situation from a book. I still believe in many, many cases estrangement is a cowardly act such as how my son is using it against us. With my son it is a tool to get what he wants, which is more control and power.

What you state about your sister being estranged even tho she was the favorite certainly speaks volumes also. It sounds like you were the one who tried the hardest to make things work and certainly shouldn't be blamed for your actions to not see your mother any longer. It does sound like it was estrangement or bust.

I do agree that your mom is using her friends to paint you as a bad daughter, however I still don't think truly abusive parents are on the internet searching for people to support them for behaving badly. Most of those people (I feel,) don't even realize that they are terrible people and treated their loved ones badly. Just as you offered to do therapy with you mom and she won't have it, we have done the same. We have offered everything but the kitchen sink to try and get along and move forward, but my dil is making it very difficult for my son. There's no question in my mind she suffers from some sort of personality disorder.

I hope you'll accept my explanation and realize that I truly wasn't pointing fingers and you directly with my comments.

anniebal

Wow- emotions are running at full speed I see...
Well, I feel I should add a thought...Because I've been on both sides of the fence, in fact all around the barn yard.
BAckground:
First of all my job exposes me to abusive parents every day of the week, and I was raised (part-time) with a cruel mother. Whom I still see and try my best to care for...yes, she is still abusive and I know everyone's case is different and everyone has limits to what they can handle. That is a God given right and I respect that.
Second-I have lost a child to death, and a part of me died...
Third-I have also lost my children who are alive.
I have lost the only real parents I ever had (grand-parents) who raised me.

NOW: I'd like to say this: There is no greater HELL on earth than losing a child. Yes, my feelings and my opinion-but obviously shared by many, many mothers as witnessed by the many many posts.
No mother is perfect, but I can also tell you this: The abused children I work with (and I am talking severally abused) love their mother. They want their mother and it's for sure not always in their best interests.

So, this is the second go-round for me as my other children are estranged not because of abuse-because they are mad at me for divorcing their father (who was an ok..father) but an awful husband. Unfortunately I am the bad one, because I was the one who was sober...and not passed out. So yes, they think he was a good father, because he never did a thing.
So....I was the one who went out in the worst parts of town to find them-went to the plays and track meets, and was always there and loved with all of my heart and soul. AMD I WAS Fully awake and knew what was going on all the time...
So...some of us got here not because we didn't put our heart and our souls on the line again and again for our children, but because we didn't ever get the respect we earned. Why...well I will tell you this-just because you earn it doesn't mean you'll get it. If you think differently stick around in the reality section of life a little longer and I'm sure you'll get the change to experience that one.
We are here to support mothers who have lost their children. Not to put them down or figure out "what they did wrong." Let me tell you and I will bet money on this one-Everyone of us has racked our brains, our hearts, our souls, and yes, saw-therapists-counselors-prayed, cried and at times thought surely we would die. Know why-(you won't if you haven't been there and I hope with all of my heart that those of you who don't exactly have an encouraging word never have to experience this) this is why-because mothers who love their children the way we do- have a hole in their hearts that cannot be healed. AND it hurts! It hurts like nothing you can imagine. AND WE all know that we are going to carry this hole in our hearts for the rest of our lives...it will never get better and it certainly will never heal.
So when we say-if you are not in the situation that we are in you cannot possibly imagine how we hurt we know what we are talking about.
AND we don't need your well thought out advise because we already tried to blame the problems on ourselves YES-DON'T" YOU SEE? That way we could FIX EVERYTHING! Do you see it fixed-NO!!!
that must not be it...so please "have mercy" if you can't say something nice-then please just leave us in peace...

straycat wandering: THANK YOU so much for your message, particularly where you say "mothers who love their children the way we do- have a hole in their hearts that cannot be healed. AND it hurts! It hurts like nothing you can imagine. AND WE all know that we are going to carry this hole in our hearts for the rest of our lives...it will never get better and it certainly will never heal."

My problem stems from my dil trying to bully my husband and me regarding their wedding; she would call and "tell" us what we were to give them and why we should pay more than her parents; long story short, we didn't give in to their immature ways; my son refused to speak with us about it other than to say "I go along with whatever she says" and after the wedding they came to our home, swore at us for leaving the reception early and stormed out, followed by my son sending me an email saying he never wants to hear from me again, no b'day cards, no holiday cards, nothing.

I have felt what you wrote for over a year and continue to feel the pain. My hope is that each day without my son will get easier. Thank you again.

In regards to your message Annie:

You Said: Your situation actually sounds like role reversal which I think could have happened due to the alcohol situation....Your mother was probably co-dependant and did everything your dad wanted, pleasing him when her first obligtion was to love and protect you.

I think it is more of an abandonment of any responsibility not only to herself but also to her children. As for being co-dependant. That is a given for any spouse that is with an alcoholic or drug addicted spouse. Anyone can get into these relationships but if you stay then I think there is something wrong with you putting up with it. In my case when I was born in the sixties they had welfare so she could have left and got support for herself and her children. She could have got a divorce and a court order for alimony and child support. She chose to be dysfunctional and stay with an alcoholic.

You Said: With my son it is a tool to get what he wants, which is more control and power.

How does he get more control and power? By saying unless you do this or that I won't see you? If that is the case then a little bit of tough love is in order. He won't get very far if you don't put up with or buy into it.

You Said: We have offered everything but the kitchen sink to try and get along and move forward, but my dil is making it very difficult for my son. There's no question in my mind she suffers from some sort of personality disorder.

Maybe that is part of the problem. You are trying too hard and certain individuals are aware of that and using it to their advantage and against you. Whether your dil is suffering from a personality disorder or not doesn't change what is happening.

If your son really wants to have contact with you I don't see how your dil can totally control that. If he has a cell phone he can call you when she's not around. He can go to a pay phone to call you. He can arrange to meet you somewhere on his own time. Unless she follows him everywhere he goes she doesn't have total control of him.

Other than that. If you feel your son is playing games with you you can always inform him that it is not appropriate and that if he thinks that it is funny to treat you without any respect that you won't put up with it anymore. Leave the door open but at the same time don't set yourself up to be abused. I've had to do a similiar thing with my daughter due to her poor lifestyle choices.

Well, I think this will be my last post. Taking up too much of my time and I don't totally agree with a lot of posters here. The only reason I was here was I was doing a search on estrangement because of the situation with my mother and this was one of the search results.

No one here has to agree with me but I still feel there are two sides to the story and I also have a right to my opinion even if people can't handle it or don't like it.

I don't see why someone would take care of their abusive aging mother especially if she is still being abusive. Yes I know there is a sense of obligation but nowadays there are homes and agencies that can care for the elderly. The family doesn't necessarily have to do all the work. What is the point of putting up with abuse? You won't get any special awards or brownies for what you are doing. Do you want everyone to say what a good person you are for putting up with abuse? I just don't get it. How can you love and care for someone that abuses you? You would think that it would make you angry and that you would come to hate the person. Unless you are confusing love with abuse.

NOW: I'd like to say that there is no point comparing who is going through the greater HELL on earth. Since everyone's life is different that answer would also be different. Someone else may be going through the greater HELL but you may not see it that way. So what? Why the need to compare pain?

Who said you have to be a perfect mother? There is no such thing. Big difference between being an imperfect mother and being an abusive one. There is no comparison. And again I don't see how you can love someone that continually abuses you. This doesn't seem normal to me but maybe you see it differently and that is fine.

How can you have an ok father and an awful husband? Doesn't seem to go together at all. If the parent's marriage is bad then it is going to affect the kids. If the husband is alcoholic then he's not going to be a good husband or a good father. His only concern is himself and the bottle. If you are married to an alcoholic then you are a co-dependent and your only concern is yourself and the alcoholic. Strong words I know but I grew up in an alcoholic home and am talking from experience. If what I'm saying doesn't apply in your situation then accept my apologies but usually that is the way it is.

It is also not unusual for the kids to have resentments against the non-alcoholic parent. By being co-dependent and tolerating the alcoholic's behaviour the kids will often lose respect for the co-dependent mother. See it from the kids perspective. The kids look up to and depend on the parent's. What they end up getting is parent's that can't even get a handle on their own lives and provide adequate role models.

And probably because of this lack of respect the kids may blame you and not the alcoholic. Maybe if you confront your kids and apologize for putting them in an alcoholic family environment that will help. Then again, maybe not. It depends on how much they know about the family dynamics of alcoholic homes, how mature they are, and if they are willing to accept reality.

My intention was not to give well thought advice but just stating my own experiences and how I see things. You don't have to accept what I say if it doesn't apply to you.

Typical co-dependent thinking. You do everything for someone else and you can't figure out why you don't get the respect back. You see yourself as good and self-sacrificing and don't even consider your role in the failed relationship. Maybe your kids are ungrateful and selfish. Did you teach and expect your kids to respect you when they were growing up. Now that they are grown do you let them get away with not respecting you? Do you let them use you? Then you need to stop enabling them to treat you like garbage. Do you think they are going to stop what they are doing if they are selfish and ungrateful kids or are getting what they want from you when they want it?

Okay, I guess I've said enough and caused enough turmoil on here. But I would like to ask you board members one question.

When is enough misery enough? How long are you going to wallow in misery over something that someone else has done to you that you may have little to no control over? What is your purpose in life? I'm sure it is not to be miserable indefinately. Eventually you need to work through your pain and come out the other end. Make the best of what you have in life. That is all anyone really has control over.

As one last example. My dad has been dead for about 21 years now. Yet my mom still complains about him and is still telling me what a b*****d and w***e m****r he is. She is a pathetic co-dependent that refuses to see reality. She continues to wallow in the misery and probably will till she dies. She is a miserable, self-absorbed, nasty and bitter person. She is wasting her remaining years on earth in misery and it doesn't have to be this way. She chooses misery instead of healing and making her life better.

Don't be like my mother and waste your life on misery and wallowing in self pity. It is a waste of time. Try to fix your end of the estranged relationship. If it doesn't work then move on. Of course it is hard but who said life was easy. Sometimes life is like the Humpty Dumpty nursery rhyme. Not everything can be fixed.

That is about all I am willing to say. Good luck to all posters resolving your difficulties.

amommybunny,
I'm sorry if you got the idea I was trying to win at a competitive sport.
You and you're relationship with your mother is I'm sure the best you can do for her under the circumstances. Please understand that no matter how I feel about my mother I must live with myself and the choices I make, that is why I am there for her. I feel she has deep issues of which she may-or for that matter may not be consciously aware of or in control of, and I can say that I did the best I could and tried no matter waht the outcome. I do not base my self-esteem on the way she acts towards me or the things she says...So; as you said; my choice and it is never in anyone's best interest to judge or let preconceived notions be an excure to judge someone especially their intentions.
NO, you were not on target about the alcohole issue it also has deeper roots than I explained. For the support we offer each other is not conditional on our ability to agree or present ideals for someone to follow.
Many times it is hard for people to reach out and offer support without judgement, and I'm sure that is especially true in your predictament due to the abuse you suffered as a child.
HOwever, it does not mean that those of us who can offer such support are lacking or fail to see a bigger picture.
Or is true, everyone feels differently about the pain they suffer and which ones are the most painful for them. That is why I added the note about for those of us who are deeply hurt because we feel we tried our best.
I hope your research project was successful, but I'm not sure the majority of us feel good about beomg guinea pig for your research . Next time you may want to ask...
Good luck with your mom.

Hello straycat:

I don't totally get what you are talking about and you are making some false assumptions. I have no idea why but it seems to be prevalent on this board.

You Said: I'm sorry if you got the idea I was trying to win at a competitive sport.

I don't know where you got this idea from. I never said such a thing or even thought such a thing. Maybe you should ask first before making such assumptions.

You Said: You and you're relationship with your mother is I'm sure the best you can do for her under the circumstances. Please understand that no matter how I feel about my mother I must live with myself and the choices I make, that is why I am there for her. I feel she has deep issues of which she may-or for that matter may not be consciously aware of or in control of, and I can say that I did the best I could and tried no matter waht the outcome.

That is fine with me. You need to follow your own conscience. I just choose not to be the martyr in my situation. The door is open if my Mom wants to communicate and resolve issues but that is usually not the case. I'm not the dumping ground for abuse.

You Said: I do not base my self-esteem on the way she acts towards me or the things she says...So; as you said; my choice and it is never in anyone's best interest to judge or let preconceived notions be an excure to judge someone especially their intentions.

I've already been down the self-esteem road with someone else on this board and I don't personally believe in the concept of self-esteem. And no one can know another person's intentions unless they ask and are given an honest answer. I don't believe I judged anyone's intentions.

You Said: NO, you were not on target about the alcohole issue it also has deeper roots than I explained. For the support we offer each other is not conditional on our ability to agree or present ideals for someone to follow.

I have no idea what you mean by this statement. I do know about alcoholic homes since I grew up in one and have firsthand experience of it. I also have lots of books regarding the subject and even though some of the circumstances may be different the dynamics of an alcoholic home are quite similar.

You Said: Many times it is hard for people to reach out and offer support without judgement, and I'm sure that is especially true in your predictament due to the abuse you suffered as a child.

I don't know what you mean by this statement either. I wasn't judging anyone. I was just stating that there are two sides to the story. I also was stating my own experiences to back up what I was saying. I state what I think and don't go around judging people on purpose. More than can be said for some people on this board I might add.

You Said: HOwever, it does not mean that those of us who can offer such support are lacking or fail to see a bigger picture.
Or is true, everyone feels differently about the pain they suffer and which ones are the most painful for them. That is why I added the note about for those of us who are deeply hurt because we feel we tried our best.

Anyone can offer support. That has nothing to do with me. I just didn't see the point of comparing pain levels. To me pain is pain and it is valid on both sides of the fence. And if you feel that you tried your best then that is what you did. Maybe it is better to move on instead of re-hashing the same old thing if nothing good comes out of it.

You Said: I hope your research project was successful, but I'm not sure the majority of us feel good about beomg guinea pig for your research . Next time you may want to ask...

Speaking of judgments, this is a prime example of what I was talking about. You are way out of line on this one. Don't even think about accusing me of something so stupid as this. I am not doing a research project and I have no idea where you got that idea from. And I wasn't using anyone as a guinea pig for my so called research. You're way off base and I have no idea why you would even accuse me of such a thing.

Why should I have to defend myself against stupid false accusations like this anyways. This is how it is. I am currently still having problems with my mom. Every now and then I look on the internet for information to help me out and I was looking for information on estrangement. That is how I saw this website. I read the messages and got the impression that they seemed a bit one sided so I just offered the other side of the story. Being that kids don't want to be estranged from their parent's but sometimes they feel they have no choice. It's either put up with the abuse or put a stop to it.

In case you're wondering I'm not some University kid doing some research for some thesis or term paper. I happen to have two full grown children and am a grandmother of one grandson whom I am raising as my own. Any information that I gather from the internet is for my own personal use. But, why should I have to explain this anyways?

You Said: Good luck with your mom.

I'll deal with my Mom as best as I can. Thanks for the sentiment.

(I mean, a Chihuahua can be a non-stop, vicious little fiend, but if you're wearing boots, who cares?)

Put your boots on ladies, they've released the Chihuahuas!

:)

Am I the only one who's confused? What is this all about?

Posted by no1name (My Page) on Fri, Aug 29, 08 at 18:03
Straycat, don't let yourself fall prey to the gallimaufry of certain "participants." Ignore them. ("Gallimaufry" from Medieval Dutch maffelen, "to open one's mouth wide.")

Posted by bloobird (My Page) on Fri, Aug 29, 08 at 20:47
Oh look; a new userID. It just makes me get all fuzzy inside when when I get a chance to learn a new vocabulary word. Here's a new word for you: disapprobation. I won't spoil your fun by giving you the definition, but I will use it in a sentance. "I have nothing but disapprobation for so called "adults" who hide behind multiple user IDs like a nerdy 8th grader in computer science class." (Don't you think it's about time to grow up and knock it off?)

Posted by bobosfriend (My Page) on Sat, Aug 30, 08 at 10:55
Ah, bloobird, you fell for that one even better than we had hoped. Now we all know who has appointed herself the internet police. You see, folks, when someone responds to one of her posts in a fashion she does not care for, she gets them banned.

Posted by bloobird (My Page) on Sun, Aug 31, 08 at 1:06
Hey, if the shoe fits, wear it Cinderella. I didn't even have to bother looking anything up, as the snarky hit and run style of the uh, "newest" poster was such a good match for someone else already known for their multiple IDs. (But thanks anyway for confirming a lucky guess.) FWIW, believe me when I tell you, not only am I not the "internet police", I have no authority or position that enables me to have anyone "banned" from this or any other site. I'm no expert in these things, but you know, if someone really is finding his or her self "banned" from THS or GW, rather than trying to blame others, they might want to look at changing their behaviour. I'm just sayin'...

There seems to be a post missing or else the last two don't make any sense at all.

I presume that someone didn't like what I said, again. Oh, well. Some of you guys need to grow up and look at yourselves. If you don't like someone's opinion then you don't have to accept it but making false accusations is just plain sick.

It's not uncommon for people on message boards to make up stories and play mind games with people. Guess they have nothing better to do.

i want to thank everyone who has expressed themselves regardless of their motives. i know its easier to play it safe and say nothing rather than take a chance and put your heart out there in the open, but i'm grateful to you for your words. you have helped to give me greater insight into this very deep and pervasive reality.

i am 50 years old and i feel i have a good relationship with my mother. but unfortunately my older brother and sister decided to divorse my mother about three years ago. it's a long story which i will spare you the details but because i was trying to play peacekeeper my brother and sister decided to divorse me too. the last communication i had from them was their refusal to meet with me with a family mediation expert who i had found to help teach us how to resolve these emotional issues in a way that doesn't antagonize or demonize the other point of view. as i sat in his office alone he looked at me knowing that my siblings would not show up and asked me "how many psychologist does it take to change a light bulb?" not knowing where this was going i said 'I don't know, three?" he said " no only one, but the light bulb has to want to change."

the bottomline is my older brother and sister are not interested in a process that requires them to stop blaming my mother since this would mean they would have to finally take responsibility for all the failures in their life. as sucessful as they've been professionally i doubt they are capable of this feat personally. they've invested so much of this "blame mother" rationalization that i think ressolving our differences threatens them existentially on some level and they wouldn't know what it means to live without blame. it's an addiction of some kind. the avoidance of taking responsibility for you anger.

parents are easy targets. though i've always communicated with my mother i too use to blame her for all my woes but then i realized that blame is just a way to mask the fears i have about my own failures and the poor choices i've made in life. as soon as i realized this my life began to change. now i see my mother as a human being. she is not perfect and she made mistakes along the way but we are able to talk about it. my older brother and sister underestimate my mother's capability for dialogue, that reality in itself says more about how they allow fear to rule their thoughts. how is it in their interest to allow us an oppurtunity to ressolve the issues between us? the answer is it's not. they're only interested and validating they're own sense of victimization. no one represses them they repress themselves. just as i use to repress myself, no one was doing it to me. i was doing it to myself!

presently my mother is doing fine. she's gone thru the different stages of acceptance but refuses to feel depressed or sorry for herself. i admire her and she knows i will be there for her all the way to the end.

Hello beginnerseye:

I agree with most of what you are saying. But would like to add that children are also easy targets not just the mothers. It is also true that nothing will be resolved unless everyone is willing to participate and contemplate change.

As for blaming. Stating what your parent or child did is just stating the facts. However, using them as an excuse is another thing. I also agree that you need to be responsible for your own actions. The parents are responsible for the children until they are grown up. After that the adult children need to take responsibility for their own actions. The children are not responsible for the parents so parents are also responsible for their actions. I strongly believe in personal accountability.

And as for validating victimization. That is a waste of time. I don't know why people do this other than to continue to use the self-pity stance as an excuse not to do something about their situation. As long as you see yourself as a victim you will continue to be stuck. As I've said before. Victims need to take action to change their situation the best they can. Better yet, stop seeing yourself as a victim. Seeing yourself as a victim is degrading and depressing. I think it is much better and productive to see yourself as an over comer of adverse circumstances.

This is just my opinion and anyone is free to disagree if they choose but there is no need for immature posts referring to small mexican dogs. If I were really a dog of which I'm not I would choose to be a poodle since they are intelligent and dignified.

hello mommybunny, i appreciate your response.

yes you are correct in stating that children are indeed easy targets as well. but eventually the child has to grow up and evolve into an adult. part of that evolution involves learning how to take responsibility for your actions/thoughts/feelings. it's a journey each individual must walk and a big part of it is learning how to stop blaming; for this will impede personal growth. i'm not saying it is easy. it can be a long road for some, but a journey of a thousand miles begins with the first step.

my mother is 79 years old and yet she wanted to participate in a family mediation meeting that would bring all parties together to facilitate constructive dialogue. her only condition being that an objective third party be present to help promote civil discourse. after initially agreeing to meet they eventually backed out and didn't show up. what else can one do to begin the process of healing. what reason could someone have to not participate unless there too invested in wanting things to remain as they are? here was the perfect oppurtunity to articulate and express their feelings and give my mother an oppurtunity to respond to their feelings and in the end they chose to deny her this possibility. how can we proceed toward reconciliation if we can't agree to meet somewhere and talk about it?

of course my sister and brother had a highly principled and just rationalization for not wanting to participate in the meeting but isn't just a fancy excuse that only helps to perpetuate the problem? it confuses me as to their real motives.

Hello beginnerseye:

You Said: of course my sister and brother had a highly principled and just rationalization for not wanting to participate in the meeting but isn't just a fancy excuse that only helps to perpetuate the problem? it confuses me as to their real motives.

One thing that I've learned from experience is that you can't control other people. Other people may do a lot of things that don't make sense and even if you confront them on the issues they are still free to do what they please. With some people there is no reasoning. If you can't communicate and reason with another person then it's almost impossible to resolve a conflict. Sometimes people will even refuse to acknowledge that there is a conflict or their part in it and problems just don't get resolved. Some people also have an issue with denial and ignore problems and the people they have problems with. Again, there is no resolution there either.

I also have offered my mother, my sister and me to go to counseling to resolve our differences but my mother and sister refuse to participate. My mother refuses because she is not willing to look at her part in the conflict and has never made a mistake in her life. Or so she thinks. My sister is weak and doesn't want to face the problems because it hurts too much. Or so she says. I think it is an excuse and she just doesn't care. Funny thing is she was always the favorite yet in the end she is the least loyal.

Maybe you can go to counseling with your mom yourself and resolve some issues without the other family members involvement.

I also used to care a lot about other people's motives. But I find what is really important is what people do and how you are going to deal with it.

Mommybunny:
You misunderstood my complete post...I think that must "do your heart good" because you seem to thrive on it. Anytime someone posts something that expresses the pain they feel about losing (or being estranged from) their children you write about your awful mother and express your "right" to exclude her from your life...then you have the swallowness to tell others to "grow up." Personally I don't care how old you are, how many children or grandchildren you have or raise, or what your "insights" are into the woman responding to the posts about this subject. From the lack of support you continue to give-and the "digs" you continue to dish out I think it sounds like a lot of people are "tuning you out."
I know you think you know everything by your posts, but just one work of advise; if you really are looking for understanding, validation or whatever you are seeking you may want to start a new post. Because I don't think your constant criticism appears appreciated here.

Hello straycat:

First of all my post was not directed to you. Second of all I was offering support to the poster.

I have a right to my opinion just like you have a right to yours. If I feel I have to exclude my mother from my life because I have tried everything with her and nothing works and it adversely affects my health then it is my business and I don't need your approval to do so.

The grow up is referring to people that like to falsely accuse, play mind games, etc on the board. And yes, I think they should grow up.

It's nice to know that you don't care about my age and my children or grandchildren. It's also nice that you don't care what my insights are. I suppose you are saying that only your views and opinions count and mine don't because they don't agree with yours and meet your approval. Well, that's just too bad for you. Maybe you shouldn't be so self-absorbed.

I give support where I'm able to. I'll give digs as you call them to ignorant individuals that choose to falsely accuse me, personally insult me, or otherwise antagonize me.

I never said I know everything and I don't want or need your advice. If I were looking for understanding, validation or whatever you would be the last person I would ask for it.

Your constant accusations are not appreciated.

Thank you and have a nice evening.

Hello again straycat:

I've been thinking about what you said. And I have to ask myself. Why am I here revealing my personal information regarding my mother, my life and my opinions when it is quite obvious that my presence, opinions and life experiences are not valued?

I feel that you have totally devalued me as a person and totally rejected me as a person. I don't know why your life experiences are important and valid but mine are not but that is obviously how you see it.

Thank God that I'm not a weak minded person or else your comments would really put me into a deep depression. I admit that I feel hurt by your abusive comments but don't worry I will get over it. After all, I don't know you personally and my life doesn't depend on you and your opinions of me.

I don't like to be where I don't feel wanted so I guess it's time for me to move on.

Thanks for the invalidation and rejection straycat. I think that you are a very caring person.

P.S. Sorry for the sarcasm but that is the way I react when I've been hurt.

straycat:

I guess I am still upset by what you said and am having trouble getting to sleep.

You know. How you treated me in your message reminds me a lot of how my mother treats me. Like cr*p. Like I don't count. Like my opinions don't count. Like my feelings don't count. Like my life doesn't count.

I think there is a lot of dysfunction here on this message board and I have enough problems with my own mother and oldest child and I sure don't need this cr*p from this board from people that I don't even know.

I hope you feel good about yourself. Right now I'm feeling very angry and depressed. And to be honest I think you are a real j**k.

Beginner,
That pains me when I read that your mother at 79 would be willing to talk it out with a mediator and her children would not be willing to engage with her. What a lot of history must be behind that decision. I don't think I can possibly, even with all the time in the world to hear the reasons, understand what got them to that place.

It got me thinking what I would do if my mother (age 60+) wanted to meet with a mediator. Right now my anger is still fresh, but one part of me would love to get it all out. The other part is afraid she will somehow manipulate the situation (as she always does, being a master at it) and get the supposedly impartial mediator over to her side, and I would feel discredited again.

"now i see my mother as a human being. she is not perfect and she made mistakes along the way but we are able to talk about it."

That is so nice that you were able to come out the other end. I also was able to do this, around 8 years ago. Seperate from the parent/child dynamic and really see my mother as a person. The problem was that the person who finally emerged ended up being a very toxic woman. It took me a few years to figure that out. I hope, and it appears from your words, that the issues with your mother were in the past.

You say that once you were able to seperate your inner child from your inner adult you could see your part and her part and forgive both for their involvement. It seems that your siblings are not able to do that, not wanting to look in the mirror, mommy being bad is an easier solution.

In my situation, I was constantly defending my mother, her choices, validating the things she had done with instances from her life that were less than savory. I was taking the blame. Once I could remove that cloak of blame from myself and put it on the ground, I saw her for the person she really is. My mother. Who is manipulative, selfish and very intelligent, yet socially and emotionally stunted.

It's so hard. It's so hard. It's so hard. OMG it is so hard. Repair what you can, so that you can ease whatever bad feelings/issues/unspoken words with your mom and move forward for her sake and your sake. I'm really sorry about your siblings. I hope once she passes they don't regret their choices.

Is there one who may be more sympathetic than the other? You might want to consider talking to them, and maybe putting a little chink in their armor.

I really think more and more people are noticing the increase of children who have chosen to be estranged from one or more of their parents. Example: "conversations I've overheard in the Doctor's offices, work, Wal-Mart and so on about the movie "The Bucket List."
(Which if you haven't seen is more about the real wealth of our relationships vs. money).
I really feel after reading so many posts and also having experienced the same "pain." (not really a strong enough word) that there are a lot of us who have really tried to be good parents, were "there" for our children, and most of all-love them unconditionally, and yet continue to be left out of their lives. Many of us have "tried and tried" to repair the relationships with our children without success.
No one has to convience me that there are parents out there that have abused their children and if allowed back into their lives would continue to do so. I also agree with all of my heart that those types of realtionships should be severed.
However; the point I was trying to make to "MommyBunny" was-The Posts on this site have no indication of such abuse...In Fact; the pain I and others have suffered and continue to suffer is enormous, and we are trying to gain support from each other by sharing our experiences and having others to confide in...The pain most of the posts on this subject seem obvcious to me...and II just can't iminage someone writing to discredit (and...that is the message mommybunny) our responsibility and/or pain.
To me; you sound like this separation from your mother continiues to cause you pain even though your relationship is not healthy...I am sorry for that, and I can't help but wonder if you could set some boundaries with her in order to have some limited contact which you could benefit from and still feel safe.
Personally; I'm not very good at setting boundaries-I'll admit...but there is a lot of information availabe on the subject, ehich could assist and offer you support if that is something you would like to pursue.
Please, I did not mean to offend you or hurt you in any way. I just wanted and want to remind you this is about good partents who have really tried and are suffering from the loss/losses of their children. WE -as I am sure you also- need support. WE scold ourselves everyday...trying to figure out what we can do to change our circumstances-we are not denying we are not perfect. We are simply hurting. Please understand none of us are your mother, and we are not here to hurt you and by the same token-we also wnat to receive support.
So; please don't be depressed....ok? Life is so short and it appears that everyone here is dealing with some heavy pain. You are right-we won't understand or agree with everyone, BUT...that is what helps us grow. What also helps is the support we receive. SUPPORT-so please try and understand I feel protective of my "sisters" and myself. I know this pain and I know you have your's but that does not give anyone the right to question the quality of our mothering skills/or your behaviors growing up, now does it? NO, and no one has said that to you...so in kind...be gentle, please.

again i want to thank all of you for trying to talk about your experiences with this issue. your words help inspire me to continue seeking out for new answers and possibilities.

i can only speak from my own experiences. it was a personal choice for me to not want to go through the rest of my life blaming my mother for everything that wasn't perfect in my life. as soon as you take responsibility for your feelings you now take the power away from the other person who was causing all the pain (both real and percieved). taking responsibility for my feelings empowered me to see that if i wait for others to change, i will be waiting for the rest of my life. i had to learn to change without the precondition that others had to change first or at the same time.
as far as "forgiving" my mother, she doesn't need my forgiveness. i can't judge her. that's when all my problems began. if anything i'm the one who needs her forgiveness! of course my mother is just glad that i've begun to take responsibility for my life.
as for my older brother and sister it appears they want to punish my mother. their actions, or lack of, indicate that she is not worthy of their their time to help ressolve the problem. they like the situation as it remains and don't appear willing to do anything that would help to bring closure to these issues. the healing process threatens them since it would require some degree of transparency and personal accountability. my mother and i have tried to meet with them but they refuse to participate. i believe in prayer that someday they will feel secure enough within themselves to give up blame and take responsibility for their own lives. if people aren't happy in their lives then do something constructive about it. don't blame someone or something outside yourself because then you take the power away from yourself.

Hi, I just joined today. It has been three weeks that my daughter, 18, moved out. She is still in high school. She tells everyone that we kicked her out. People who were our friends have taken her in at times. They never told us she was with them, but blame us for her actions. Teachers, husband and wife, took her in also, and other teachers we know were looking for a place for her to live. My husband teaches with all the teachers, but no one ever talked with him about her. People have sided with her because she is so sweet and good, how could she be wrong? They never saw how she was alienating herself from us these past few months, arguing with, screaming at us, and loudly defying us in front of her other four sibs. People whom I thought were friends are turning against us, because of her. This is the most heart-rending and painful thing I have ever experienced. I am finding that, yes, no one knows what it is like unless they have gone through it.Otherwise they blame the parents---especially if the child is charming. (I will read more about NPD, I never thought about it.) And she is adopted, like the rest of the family. Another kink in the situation. My emotions are spent. This is hell on earth. All I want to do is sleep, and then I dream about her. I know I have made some mistakes, but she just wanted to do what she wanted to do for her senior year. Her consequences are failing grades. She could have just talked with us, but I find she had planned this for a while.Now she will not talk with us and ignores her father on campus. I can only pray and sometimes I can't do that. I am glad I found this forum. I do understand what others are going through, and I am not looking forward for the pain that will not go away. I also criticized parents who had trouble with their teens, and thought if I raised them right. . .it would never happen to me. How naive!We never know anything until we walk in the other person's shoes, or until their shoes become our own.

Hi, I just joined this site so I am not sure if this is the correct forum. I have an 18 year old daughter who I raised as a single parent. I love my daughter and she is my life but I am sometimes reminded of the movie The Omen when reflecting on the last 18 years. I try to think back on what went wrong and I think it begins when she is a 2 month old infant and I was forced to place her in daycare while I served on active duty working up to 18 hours a day 7 days a week. Knowing this was not good for my child I gave up my 12 year military career to raise her. Nevertheless I still had to work and she was placed in preschool. I would never do this to another child..this is why I never had another. Anyway, beginning with age 2 she began throwing fits, which I attributed to the "terrible twos" only her fits continued throughout her childhood. She would scream and carry on so loud it seemed like Children's Services was out every week. They would physically examine her and not find a single mark or any evidence of abuse or neglect then report "Child appears to be very well taken care of". When my daughter was 13 she began physically attacking me when she didn't get her way. If I told her she couldn't break curfew and go to a party or if I wouldn't wait on her hand and foot she would kick me, hit me, spit on me, pull my hair, and throw things at me. Do not ask me where she learned this. I never abused my child and have never spanked her or laid a hand on her in her entire life. It came to the point that the police were out twice a week. They told me I needed to have her arrested or she would end up killing me one day. I had her arrested finally and she spent a couple of days in juvenile hall then was released and placed into the probation system. Her behavior began spiraling even worse and her grades fell, she got into fist fights in middle school and I got calls at least twice a week from the school counselor for her getting into some kind of trouble. A juvenile court judge eventually placed my daughter into a probation group home when she was 13 as she was so out of control. For the next 3 years she was in and out of probation group homes. At the age of 16 she and another girl ran away (AWOLed) from a probation group home stealing the group home van. I got a call from her saying she was in Albuquerque NM. I called my ex-husband and he drove from Las Vegas to Albuquerque to get her. Although he didn't have legal custody or guardianship he agreed to let her stay with him. He and his new wife did the best they could with her but she was disrespectful to them and gave them problems too. She finally moved in with her boyfriend and his mom. Earlier in the year the boyfriend's mom bought them a house. My daughter feels she has started a new life and pushes me away. I call her and she doesn't return my calls for several days. She brags about how wonderful her boyfriend's mom is and how she makes so much money. I have tried talking to the boyfriend's mom but she won't return my calls. She'll just tell my daughter that I was "bothering" her. I don't know how I am bothering her I've only talked to her 3 times in the last two years. My daughter just had a baby in June and I am trying hard to remain on good terms with her so I can be in my granddaughter's life but my daughter is so disrespectful to me when I call that I really feel I am losing my dignity when I try to call. Her message is "Don't call me I'll call you." However if her mother-in-law calls she'll run to the phone and answer it on the first ring. My calls are ignored for days. I guess I am just going to have to reconcile with the fact that she doesn't want me in her life. Today she said "you know what? me and my boyfriend's mom talk about you and make fun of you!". I was so hurt I had to end the call with her.

yes you will find that sons and daughters that alienate and estrange their parents are not mature enough in themselves to have a dialogue where parties are able to transcend right and wrong and go further for the real answers and not assign blame. in reality we are all at fault. what do most people acually argue about is who is MORE wrong! children need to realize their parents are human too and sometimes we make mistakes. or how many times do we do something we think is good but it has unintended negative consequences? the key word is INTENT. many children take things personally and really believe something was aimed at them on purpose. so i would worry less about who is right and who is wrong and also not worry about who is on your side. show your child that they are more important to you than what you think your "so-called" friends think of you. insecure people feel the need to recruit other people on their side to help them feel more secure. so don't worry too much about that. you will find out who your real friends are times in like this. and also remember that you have others who are depending on you so don't allow this to consume you to the point where you begin to neglect them. keep the faith

I was reading through here and wanted to say thanks to susiethecook and healandforgive for sharing your stories. The points you both made about your experiences were very moving.

From my own experience I'd like to say it isn't always the adult children choosing estrangement. We tried on many occasions to work out our issues with my husbands mom.

Isn't sitting down to talk things out the right way to deal with serious relationship problems? She made it clear she hated speaking about the relationship issues, wouldn't do it (but would voice her many complaints to others)and that if we didn't simply bring her our children and shut up we were unacceptable.

Joshua Coleman has a book called When Parents Hurt that talks about when the parent/adult child relationship is hurtful. It might be helpful to some here.

The conclusion for us is that we can't work out what she won't be honest about and she would rather have no contact then talk and work anything out. I feel sorry for her but am relieved to not have the stresses, be afraid of what her next visit we be like or watch my husband self destruct after every contact.

When she was nice she seemed so genuine. When she was angry I was afraid of her. I could never tell which was coming next and was always on guard after I saw that side of her that hated me and wanted me out of the way.

If she would talk about it and be respectful to my husband this could all be fixed. We are all only human. That may never happen though. I am very sad on one hand (I never thought this would happen she was so great before we had our first child.) and on the other hand I am relieved she is currently cutting us off. I hope she gets the help she needs.

you know each person's experience is so unique and it's hard to respond appropiately, but i think it's good and important to have a dialogue. i hope my input is taken constructively because i value this site.
yes parents are at fault and seem very intolerant and closed minded at times. my mother was this way and yet, though it took many years i, as well as healandforgive it appears, was able to, after great effort, finally realize that for what ever the reason an elder parent is not always able to relinquish their biases. my mother, my mother-in-law and father-in-law still are quite critical of me. but i don't take it personally anymore. they are individuals with their own history. i am secure with who i am and i don't require their validation. my wife knows i love and support her unconditionally. i honor my mother/father-in-law because it's more than just about me. in a strange way it's the only way they know how to show affection for their daughter is by being critical of me. i don't pretend to understand it, but their views don't threaten me. it doesn't mean i've compromised my standards or principles. when i finally stoped idealizing the expectations of how i thought people should treat me and i just started to accept others as they are, with their limitations/faults and have a more realistic expectation of what they are capable of giving and of what they are not, then i began to stop setting myself up for disappointment. i now have a better relationship with my mother and in-laws not because thet've changed but because i choose to focus on the things they can give rather than on the things they can't and perhaps never will.

beginnerseye-You are blessed to be able to function in your own life inspite of the criticism of those close to you.I admire the effort it must have taken you to see them as limited and change your expectations and appreciate them anyway. It sounds like you also choose to see them as supporting your wife via criticizing you and so you changed that negative into a positive too. You get a healthier self and marriage by reframing your experience, that is a great use of that insight. Does your wife feel supported by the effort you've put in to accepting her family? I would think that it would be a good thing for your marriage that you chose to respond that way.

A different experience I have with estrangement--

My experience with my own mom is actually a story of healed estrangement.

I would become physically ill from the anxiety and stress of dealing with her emotional needs. She was not toxically critical, she did trample boundaries. Her life was just so chaotic it never felt safe to be with her. She enabled an abusive addict while I was a teenager and I never knew what would be coming next. He robbed us, broke out windows and doors trying to get in. (I wouldn't open the door.) Passed out on our floor and on and on...When she was home I was angry that she would be leaving to go to this unworthy person. When she was gone I was afraid for her life. I have a lot of sympathy for the parents who are experiencing situations like that with their kids.

I would have a constantly 'on' adrenaline response. I moved away to go to college but our relationship was not okay for a long time. After she finally escaped from that relationship.(It ended after he tried to kill her (and still she wouldn't call the police). My aunt saved her.(Another miracle from God. My aunt just happened to stop when she was driving by and if she had stopped by 3 times in the six years before that I would have been very surprised. She said she just had the sudden feeling that she should go to my mom. I am glad she listened and did. She interupted the attack.) My mom just moved away from there after that. She never enabled anyone like that again. She later married a nice man and they have a stable life.)

Having a relationship with my mom did not get better for years though. I was often remembering very stressful things from the past whenever we would have contact (a call, letter or especially a visit) even once she seemed okay in the present.

I didn't even know what it was for a long time. I found out a little more than a year ago I have Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. I thought it was only something combat soldiers got or victims of assault. No one ever physically attacked me, I was upset a lot but I didn't feel like a victim.)

I was semi-estranged from my mom for a few years after 18 and suggested every kind of counseling and self help option I could think of to her. (For her to get over the past. I was still trying to rescue her. But I should've been taking care of me.)She didn't want to burden anyone else with the issues. She only wanted to rely on me. (Emotionally.)

I just had nothing left to give and was self destructing. (That was before husband and kids.) I got some counseling which helped me deal with my own life but barely touched on having a relationship with her.

I would have panic attacks after receiving a phone call from her and it was years of effort to find any safe ground.

Limiting contact with her was never about wanting to punish her for any perceived faults. It was a choice between being able to take care of my first priorities (marriage, Children, work etc.) or setting off my stress response. With the normal stresses of my personal life I could do okay. I often was not able to take on one more stressor on top of meeting those responsibilities.(I mean the panic attacks that were often triggered by memories that came up when I was in contact with her.)

I credit God totally with the healing that took place between my mom and I last year. For the first time I can be around my mom and actually have a relationship with her without being blindsided by stressful feelings about the past.

No more adrenaline response when it isn't needed. No more tension. I haven't had a panic attack in a several months. (Since my MIL cut us off I've been free of panic attacks.)No panic attacks in a year that were brought on by being around my mother. I am actually able to enjoy her company in a way I never thought I'd get to.

God is good and I am very, very grateful. I never wanted to be estranged from my mom. I just couldn't survive and be close to her at the same time until my own life and health were well healed and well balanced. She learned how to respect the boundaries of others, including mine. And she learned how to set her own boundaries. I never thought that would happen and I also consider that a God given miracle.

If she were a purposely hurtful person I still couldn't be around her. I am grateful she is not and even more grateful we have been given a new opportunity for a relationship.

beautiful story flowerfeeder. you demonstrated over time a willingness to remain open for the possibility of reconciliation with your mother, even though it took years for it to materialize. you never gave up. how lucky you both are. your mom, like mine, was able to learn how to modify her behavior so that old thought patterns wouldn't undermine the relationship. this required me to learn how to better communicate with my mother in order to let her know what it was i needed from her; so that our expectations were realistic. i, like you, feel grateful to g-d, there's only so much i can do on my own, i am just one person. i did what i could do at the time and everyone else did what they could do and somehow it all came together in the end. amen

yes my wife does appreciate that i don't exploit the situation for personal gains. i love her and want her to have peace in her life. she has enough going on to repair her own issues between her parents, why pile on?

thankyou for sharing your experience. it gives me hope that maybe someday my siblings will break thru and begin to reconciliate with my mother. thankyou

this site is for those adult children who have estranged their parents but wish to seek out information and shared experiences about how to overcome the negativities associated with this issue. i know there is tremendeous hurt and pain on both sides of the issue, and it's important to recognize those feelings, but how do we get to the other side of forgiveness, tolerance, and healing? i would like to encourage anyone to share their story about how they were able to break through the emotional aspects to this issue and achieve some form of communication with their parents. thankyou.

Hey, it looks like the air is more clear in here. I do believe a deep breath is in order!!!
YEA!

Flowerfeeder, what a touching story. What you said below really hit home with me. I feel like you took the words from my heart...

"I never wanted to be estranged from my mom. I just couldn't survive and be close to her at the same time until my own life and health were well healed and well balanced."

F had a daughter that hurt me deeply and considered disinheriting her.But I came to the conclusion that to do so would hurt her so deeply for the rest of her life. I realized inheritance is not a reward and should never be used as a punishment. An inheritance is saying..'i love you unconditionally and there is nothing you can do to forfeit my love for you'. It is a time to have a last word to ones children and gift them with your love that is eternal.To leave a child out of your will opens up a world of pain and anguish that lasts a lifetime. It tears down any sibling relationships. It harvests bitter memories and broken relationships.It is a parent saying for the very last time to their child..'i not only refuse to forgive you but you are and always will be unworthy of my love and acceptance of you..may you suffer until the day you die.My contempt of you is now laid in stone and you will die in shame. Can't anyone see that this is what you truly are saying to your child? Do you really want to so damage your children? And if so, then something is very wrong with you.

I don't love anyone unconditionally. How can you love someone who fathers 3 sweet babies and does not take care of them. He let the wife care for them even after she threw a newborn across the room. He should have called the police and never let her near them.

My youngest son called for money when I finally said no more, he cussed me out. How can you love someone like that. I would never leave a dime to sons like that. My worst nightmare would have them come here when I get old and weak and want to take care of me.

I disinherited my son after he returned Christmas cards and money and refused contact over the years. I sent him a copy of the will on Fathers day, letting him know that in my view our relationship or lack thereof, has come to this point. I'm done, I'm though with being rejected. I believe in forgiveness, and the door could be opened again, but I won't do one way streets anymore. Yes, I also wanted to let him know how it feels to be disowned, while I'm still alive and no hope for change after the fact. There are practical considerations too. For years I've been enmeshed in the fantasy of how things could, should or ought to be. I've always been the one that is supposed to do 99% of the work, and prove myself. He is 37, that view was fine as a young adult, but I decided that something has to motivate him to finally grow up. I had an alcoholic parent, in my mid twenties I learned how to let go of my resentment and realize he did the best he could with what he had to work with. I'm not without fault, I keep trying to give him fatherly advice about paying off his credit card debt, getting a job with benefits and having health insurance. In hindsight, I should have kept quiet, instead of trying to pass on the wisdom my parents gave to me, or so I thought.

Now, I would like to leave my estate to folks that actually make an effort to be part of my life and will be there for me when the time comes. I'll forgive my son, but others will get my estate.

It may seem strange that parents and children become estranged...the word strange is there for a reason....because whether it is an abusive parent or an abusive child...they can become like a stranger...abuse does not even have to be a part of it....

Sometimes one of the two loses interest....yeah..that does happen...I am sure the original poster stumbled on this topic...came in and was fascinated...like a voyeur actually...comments were quite abrasive critical and harsh..

But most often when a parent has seen to financial needs of a child...they might use indifference to get more from the parent....when they get older...

Where children decide to divorce a parent could involve a traumatic childhood...we know it goes both ways...and can happen to anyone for any number of causes...so instead of peeking into the lives of people likely in pain of loss...be grateful it is not you who is asking the question..." why, after a satisfying life with my parent/ child, did this happen"...

Go to whatever reason you sought this site and happily plant your petunias....I see that post is from 08....so likely they will not see this...but if they do...I would like to tell them.." careful, manure stinks and stains"

It may seem strange that parents and children become estranged...the word strange is there for a reason....because whether it is an abusive parent or an abusive child...they can become like a stranger...abuse does not even have to be a part of it....

Sometimes one of the two loses interest....yeah..that does happen...I am sure the original poster stumbled on this topic...came in and was fascinated...like a voyeur actually...comments were quite abrasive critical and harsh..

But most often when a parent has seen to financial needs of a child...they might use indifference to get more from the parent....when they get older...

Where children decide to divorce a parent could involve a traumatic childhood...we know it goes both ways...and can happen to anyone for any number of causes...so instead of peeking into the lives of people likely in pain of loss...be grateful it is not you who is asking the question..." why, after a satisfying life with my parent/ child, did this happen"...

Go to whatever reason you sought this site and happily plant your petunias....I see that post is from 08....so likely they will not see this...but if they do...I would like to tell them.." careful, manure stinks and stains"

It may seem strange that parents and children become estranged...the word strange is there for a reason....because whether it is an abusive parent or an abusive child...they can become like a stranger...abuse does not even have to be a part of it....

Sometimes one of the two loses interest....yeah..that does happen...I am sure the original poster stumbled on this topic...came in and was fascinated...like a voyeur actually...comments were quite abrasive critical and harsh..

But most often when a parent has seen to financial needs of a child...they might use indifference to get more from the parent....when they get older...

Where children decide to divorce a parent could involve a traumatic childhood...we know it goes both ways...and can happen to anyone for any number of causes...so instead of peeking into the lives of people likely in pain of loss...be grateful it is not you who is asking the question..." why, after a satisfying life with my parent/ child, did this happen"...

Go to whatever reason you sought this site and happily plant your petunias....I see that post is from 08....so likely they will not see this...but if they do...I would like to tell them.." careful, manure stinks and stains"