gell:

1) I dont think it's rude to exclude. I just would like to know ahead of time.
2) I'm not refusing to get it. I am 42 years old and only learned this etiquette rule here on this thread, that this is what is meant by the addressees. Heck, I usually rip envelopes open and throw them away and only keep the contents. To be honest, I have good friends that I may not remember all the kid's names or spellings. And I have one friend who has 5 kids. Would you put all the names on the envelope? I rely heavliy on what is written on that little RSVP card. And I do call to ask nowadays, ever since this whole wedding thing came up with my SIL.

To make it clear up front only reduces stress on the wedding party as well as the invitees. Why not be clear? Most importantly with out of town invitees, the clearer the better.

Just because the etiquette book says something is 'correct etiquette', one should not assume that everyone has read that particular book to know the rule.

My DD's school motto is "Make Good Choices and Learn Something New Every Day."

Ok I have learned something new wth this topic.
I can, as a wedding organizer Make a Choice to be clear on the RSVP card. It may not be correct etiquette, but it is good common sense. Do the two have to exlude each other?

Do your invitations not have some inclusion of the names of invitees? If not, perhaps they should and that will clear up the issue of who is invited.

"Mr and Mrs Parents of the Bride (or whoever is hosting this shindig)
request the pleasure of the company of
____________________________________
(names of invitees are usually hand written in here)
at the marriage of
Bride to Groom
at, on, yada yada"

So if it says "John and Jane" or "John and Jane Doe", then John and Jane are the invitees, and no one else. If it says, "John and Jane, Buzz, Alice and Jethro", where Buzz, Alice and Jethro are John and Jane's minor children, then they are also invited. If John and Jane have adult children, the adult children should receive separate invitations.
So, basically, if YOUR NAME isn't on the actual invitation, YOU aren't invited. What is on the envelope is irrelevant.

Daisy, in the US invitations are almost always engraved or at least printed.
There is really no way to accomodate clods without being one your self.
Address the outside envelope with Mr and Mrs Soandso and Emily and Thomas....and do the same inside on the inside envelope. Then trust them to do the right thing. If someone responde indication they are bringing their kids, then call them and politely tell them that you hadn't included their children on the guest list. Terribly sorry, but with all the friends and family on both sides we would be outgrowing the facility if we did.
Don't stoop to the clods' level by adding anything like "Adults Only" or "no children" or anything else.
And for your dear brother with the 2 lovely children whom you want to include, put their names on the outside and the inside envelope.
and technically the RSVP card is also not the best manners. It presumes that guests would not know enough to reply without it.....but we all know that is so!
Bringing your children or a date uninvited to a wedding is as rude as bringing them to your house to a party uninvited.
Do people really show up with kids in tow to a sit down meal....with place cards and all???
Linda C

Hey Linda, I'm Colleen, not Daisy :-)........
Invitations here are engraved or printed also, but they are worded in such as way that you need to write in the name/s of the invitees, rather than being general, ie, "the pleasure of _your_ company". So, (the bold bits are printed, the italic bits are written in the space left for this purpose by the printers)
"Mr and Mrs Parents of the Bride (or whoever is hosting this shindig)
request the pleasure of the company of
names of invitee/s
at the marriage of
Bride to Groom
at, on, yada yada"
If you were doing you own invitations on a computer you could do a mail merge type thing and have each invitation printed with the invitee/s' name/s so they were personalised, and again only the person whose name is on the invitation is invited.

LOL!! I knew it was one or the other of you Aussie Angels!
What a sensible thing! Makes for a lot of work for the bride and her mother...but so personal....and then there is no ( we hope) confusion over just who is invited.
No here we do the Mr and Mrs whatever request the honor of your presence ( if for a wedding and not just the reception) at the amrriage of...etc etc.
And then there are 2 envelopes...and the inner is addressed to Mr and Mrs Firstname Whoever and their children Anne and William
And on the outside envelope it's addressed to the same plus their address.
Also very plain...but it seems some don't read the envelope.
Linda C

DH & I got married a year ago, and I'm still not certain how members of DH's extended family didn't understand that the words "Adult Reception" and "Mr. & Mrs. Doe" didn't mean that their son wasn't invited. After numerous hysterical phone calls from DH's aunts and cousins to my then BF and his mother, my mother finally had to step in and send a letter to the inconsiderate relatives explaining that NO children were going to be at the wedding REGARDLESS of who they were! We were extremely limted on seating and it was my DH who insisted in the first place that we not invite kids.

I didn't do this for my RSVP cards but learned of it afterwards (I would've done it if I had seen it before having invites engraved). Some brides will write out the RSVP cards themselves so that when the guest replies s/he just checks a yes or no response. For example:

M/M John Doe

____ 2 will attend
____ 2 will not attend

Or something close to that effect so that there *shouldn't* be any misunderstandings.

I am with Lindac on this one. I think everyone over the age of 21 should be familiar with proper etiquette. It is the responsibility of the parents to see that they teach their children, but that means they must know proper etiquette as well.

Inserting a person's name on an engraved wedding invitation?? That is just beyond tacky. I don't care if you are doing your invitations on your computer and can mail merge, don't do your invitations that way, it's just in plain old bad taste.

I have never heard such ridiculous stories in all my life. I have also never heard of anyone trying to bring a child to an evening reception or any reception for that matter when the invitation is addressed to Mr. and Mrs. John Doe. If you want the family, it reads Mr. and Mrs. John Doe and Family if there are 6 kids, of course you don't write everyone's name!

Ugh, this thread has shed a new light on how clueless people can be.

If you want to teach your children etiquette (and in my book it is like teaching them to wash their hands before eating), there is a good book "The Golden Rules of Etiquette at the Plaza".

There are also many books in your local library dying to be read by those of you who can't figure out the ins and outs of socializing.

Dear Labmomma,
I am so glad to find you are an expert on Australian etiquette. Now I know of whom to enquire should I have any questions regarding my next soiree.
Of course, there is that school of thought which considers calling the etiquette of another country or culture "tacky" is in itself, tacky, but I see that is a school of thought to which you do not belong.

Geez, I guess I'm clueless. thanks labmomma!

laurels, I love your idea!!!

I don't profess to know anything about Australian etiquette, but if these questions are a representation, then I stand by my thoughts. My comments were constrained to those here in the States who are posting about this relative being upset that their child isn't invited, the invitations aren't clear, etc. It's nonsense. Don't you have rules of etiquette in Australia?

I have traveled to many countries, and have seen that most of them do have etiquette rules. Their etiquette may be somewhat different but the point is, there is a correct way to do things. Here in the United States, we have proper etiquette and things should be done properly. If you are clueless you can inform and educate yourself, it only takes a little initiative and reading. As I said before, learning proper etiquette is as basic as learning to wash your hands before dinner.

trekaren - just because something makes sense, doesn't mean it is either proper etiquette, or in good taste.

hahahahahah!
Another etiquette challenged poster here! LOL
Etiquette rules are superficial. Many are arbitrary. They mean nothing compared decent manners. However, etiquette and manners are not the same thing. A person can have impeccable etiquette, read every book in the library on the subject, pass them down for generation in a family, take a class on it, and still be rude. In fact, some can even use etiquette rules to be rude.

When a wedding becomes about perfect etiquette it turns what should be a celebration turns into a family war. Each bride and groom know their own friends and family well enough to decide what is best for their situation. If they are polite, they can stand by what they do with no regrets.

Etiquette schmetiquette.

Labmomma....I believe you misunderstood Coleen. In Australia, wedding invitations are printed with a blank space for the bride or her parents to fill in, in their own hand writing the names of the specific individuals who are included in the invitation...
So ultimatly the invitation would read:
Mr and Mrs. Parents Request the honour of the presence of Ms Labmomma and her son Daron to the wedding of....etc...
The blank space is not to be filled in by the recipients, but by the host and hostess. I think it's a lovely custom.
In very high society for a very small wedding where the wedding only includes close family and friends and the reception included the masses, it is considered very correct for the bride to send hand written invitations to those who she would like to have at the wedding.
Which hand to you use for your knife when eating in Germany?
It might be well for you to remember that what is correct in one country may not be correct in another.
Linda C

Talking of etiquette...my DD recently was in the US (I am in Australia), and she thought it was hilarious how EVERYONE in the immediate vacinity would say "bless you" when she sneezed.

She had many a chuckle about that !

Here we say that, but not on mass !

I think we do have etiquette in Australia, but basically we are very easygoing mate !

Popi

I thought I would give an update on the out-of-town wedding that we went to. For reasons that would take a month of Sundays to explain, we couldn't get a sitter for our 4 yo son, so we had to take him to the wedding (he was invited in case you missed my first post). Two children were invited to the wedding - the 5 yo nephew of the bride, and the 4 yo nephew of the groom. Children of other guests were not invited. (and thankfully no knuckleheads brought their kids).

The wedding was small - 60 people (max capacity of the room) in a small stone building - very intimate, and no where to escape if the child got restless. I brought a couple of books for my son to read if he got bored (which he did very quickly. After going through the books, I started showing him pictures on my digital camera...anything to amuse him as we got through the ceremony. Just as my brother and his wife were exchanging vows, my son started making pig snorting sounds. In such a small room, it was very loud. I wanted to die. Thankfully I was able to distract him quickly with something, so he stopped after a couple of snorts. I don't know if it upset them - they are still on their honeymoon so I haven't talked to them yet. I really hope that they are not upset about it.

The meal was super long....3 courses for 60 people... it was 9:00 before dinner was over. My son did *super* well sitting the entire time. But it wasn't any place for him. If there would have been any way to have him with a sitter, we would have done it. I can't understand how anyone could think that an evening reception is any place for a child.

So, we've returned from the wedding! There was a ring bearer and flower girl, both under the age of four. The ring bearer made it down the aisle, the flower girl burst into tears and ran out of the room. Not suprised! We had a sitter at the hotel, unfortunately nobody else took advantage. My husband was the best man, so I sat at a table with 8 groomsmen, none of them brought their wives. All of the ladies stayed home with the children. That was a bit disappointing. But, we did have a good time, and the ceremony was beautiful.

I did go to a wedding last year, that invited children. The bride set the tables up so that all of the children were seated at the same table. There were activities for them, and the parents sat at other tables. It was a really cute idea! One parent checked on their kid, and got a "I'm fine, Dad!! Leave me alone!!" Very funny :) Christy

Hi popi -

Can you help me understand why it's hilarious that many people say bless you to someone who sneezes? It's people wishing the "sneezer" well, right, by asking for blessings on them (and not illness)?

I'm really asking - not being snide. Why is it funny for many people to be generous and make a polite gesture?

If it was your daughter who sneezed, and people said that to her, did she say thank you? That is the etiquette, although if the whole thing isn't the culture in Australia perhaps she didn't know. In that case, the Americans probably thought her rude. It really can be tough to know another culture when you're traveling, isn't it.

Suzieque

I can't answer for Popi's daughter, but I can say that in Australia it is very rare to say "bless you" when someone sneezes, even to someone you know, let alone a stranger. I can't think the last time anyone said it to me. I imagine that having a chorus of bystanders saying it every time one sneezes would be amusing to someone who had no experience of it.
Another aspect of this is that while Australia professes to be a Christian country, celebrating the major Christian religious festivals such as Christmas and Easter, and a large percentage prefer to be married in a church, Australians are not, in general, overtly religious. Most Australians would tick "Christian" on the Census form, but church attendance is very low. We find the issue of whether or not Presidential candidates are regular church goers (as an indicator of their worthiness) somewhat incomprehensible because it is such a non-issue here. I have no idea if our Prime Minister attends a church or even what denomination he is, if any, and frankly I don't think that's any measure of his effectiveness as a PM. That's not to say we're a nation of atheists, but rather that we feel religion is something one keeps to oneself. So few go around wishing blessings to random strangers.

Colleen - thanks for the lesson. We in the US (dare I speak for us all? Sorry to do so if I'm wrong according to someone's specific US region. I'm in the Northeast) consider that polite, friendly, and pretty much normal response, even to a passerby (although usually done with a friendly smile, as is the thank-you)- how interesting to learn that Australians would consider it strange.

What a contrary bunch, aren't we humans!

I hope to visit your wonderfully enticing country sometime! I know several people who have and have all great things to say.

Suzieque

Well...I just googled! I was curious about gezundheit, which is also a very common expression when someone sneezes. People of German heritage or Ashkenasic Jews say it. It means God Bless, and according to google was widely used in Australia until WW II when use of the German language was discouraged. The custom is said to have originated because it was thought the soul left the body during s sneeze. Another source says it originated during the black plague in Europe when sneezing may have been a sign of impending death.
I wonder what Arabs and Asians say when someone sneezes?
Now I have to research what other cultures say...
Linda C

Interesting about the sneeze traditions in different countries!

I wonder though, what etiquette says about calling people names like Clueless and Knuckleheads, who are only just now at a late age learning nuances of etiquette such as envelope addressees.

:-)

Suzieque

The reason that my DD found it amusing that her sneeze was followed by a chorus of "bless you's" was the fact that it was the "whole" room of people saying it ! It even happened in a shopping centre, someone would sneeze and from way across the centre she heard a faint "bless you". It was like people where programmed to make that response when a sneeze was heard.

I agree with what Colleen said about Australian's, I think we prefer to keep our faiths rather subdued, we dont advertise it. Which I think is the way it should be, by the way ! I think John Howard does go to Church.

Popi

I think American's saying 'bless-you' is more polite than religious. It falls under the same rule as 'please' and 'thank-you' or the gesture of holding open a door. To say she found a chuckle at it, sounds to me that she was making fun of us. And if she was somewhere where she received a chorus of 'bless you's' than she was in a very polite and friendly room! I haven't been to many other countries, but I don't think I would be so quick to make fun of the local traditions when I returned.

Christy - precisely! Thank you for putting into words what I was feeling but couldn't. As I said way above, it's etiquette, and I wondered if the popi's daughter had said thank you. If not, that would have been perceived as rude. Yes, I agree that our use of "bless you" is more polite than religious. And it does feel as though she was ridiculing us for being polite.

Certainly popi's daughter simply didn't know the nature of the gesture. I guess it could be considered funny, just as some of her country's customs might seem hilarious (as she said) to us. Too bad that she didn't ask someone she was with about it. She might've learned and also saved herself from looking discourteous. Hopefully she'll return and enjoy America again. "When in Rome ...", as they say.

In some Spanish locales, including Puerto Rico where DH is from, they say Salud, Dinero y Amor with each sneeze.
First sneeze: Salud! (health!)
Second sneeze: Dinero! (money!)
Third sneeze: Amor! (Love!)

And as much as I sneeze, I usually get a chorus of all three from DH and his relatives.

What an interesting thread! I just read through the whole thing. It's probably been beaten to death already so I'll only chime in to say that as a parent of a 16 yo and 19 yo, I heartily agree that children simply do not belong in some situations. And yes, I've passed on some invitations when my kids were younger because I couldn't make arrangements for them - that's a fact of having kids. And I've had adults only parties, even when my kids were young. That's the privelege of the host/ess.

On the subject of etiquette, I think it's way overrated. It's great to use Emily Post's book as a guideline, and certainly planning a wedding is unknown territory for many so it's nice to have those guidelines, but each wedding is different. Each couple, their family traditions and how their friends are likely to understand things -- all different. What is the norm in one group might be considered rude by another and vice versa. Any host of any party, wedding for 300 guests or dinner party for 8, would do well to consider the traditions and expectations of those they are inviting, and word the invitations accordingly. And if adults only is what you want, and the only way to communicate that is to put it on the invitation, then I say do it. And if someone who receives the invitation is offended by that or thinks it's against etiquette, well I hope they'll follow etiquette enough to keep that opinion to themselves.

Oh, and LindaC, gesundheit means "good health" not "bless you".
From google:
When a person sneezes, German and Yiddish speakers typically say Gesundheit! to wish them good health

Nicely said, lowspark. I think you nailed it :) Christy

For my wedding, I didn't specify "no children." When my children were younger, I preferred not to take them with me to weddings. I cannot relax and enjoy myself, but was glad that the option was there to take them. Some family members really want to be at a wedding but can't get child care, so they would feel excluded at a "no child" wedding. These people usually leave the reception a little earlier (understandably), but they at least got to be part of a family event. If I can help it, I prefer to go sans kids, but someday, when I remarry (divorced), I will not tell anyone not to bring their kids, as I have 3 of my own and my fiance has 3 from a previous marriage. I want our children there, so I will not exclude anyone else's. I can understand why some people specify "no kids," but I think people (brides especially) put too much stock in making the day perfect. You cannot control a day. It could rain. It could hail. A wind-storm might kick up. Someone might get too drunk at the reception. Stuff happens. That does not mean your whole wedding is ruined. Even back when I was a young bride, I realized this (thank goodness), so a kid throwing a tantrum would not have ruined my day. It's a long day. A few isolated incidents don't mar the purpose of the day and the good memories of family and friends coming together and celebrating.

As a person who had a wedding geared towards adults, I can say that it's not about having a perfect day. It's not about your wedding being ruined by what kids might do. I had reasons that I wanted an evening wedding and cocktail party reception that had nothing to do with being afraid that a child would ruin it. Like I said in my previous post - everyone should do it the way they want. If I want an evening cocktail party without kids, that's what I should be able to do, and without criticism for trying to have a perfect wedding or for not caring about anyone's children. If I were to get remarried, I would still have an evening wedding. Actually, I would get married on a cruise ship! Children probably wouldn't be invited, and I have a child. It's not about wether or not I like kids, or have any illusions or unrealistic fantasies about what the day is going to be like. Please don't try to guess why I am having the party that I want to have.

If a toddler is having a temper tantrum at the wedding reception, while music is playing, and people are dancing and milling about, you are right, it probably isn't a big deal.

But if a child is having a screaming temper tantrum throughout the exchanging of wedding vows, spoiling the actual wedding, yes, it would be a big deal! I wrote above about a wedding I attended where this actually happened. The parents were in the 5th row, and let their child spoil someones ENTIRE wedding ceremony with his screaming temper tantrum. Most people know enough to take their child outside in this situation. But there is always one clueless set of parents who do not have the common sense to get their kid out of there and just stand there allowing their child to ruin someone elses wedding...that someone planned for months and months, and spent a fortune on making this day special. Most people would care in this situation. There is too much planning and money spent on too many weddings, to let it be spoiled by those who do not know any better.

And I like kids. Perhaps they should be invited to the reception, so they can take part in the day.

Or perhaps one could invite children over the age of 6 or 7, when temper tantrums should be well behind them, and they (especially little girls) love seeing the bride walk down the isle.

Ok, I didn't see this touched upon, so I'll throw it out there. Is it inappropriate to not invite the toddlers while inviting 13 and over? We have five close family memembers that are teenagers. We also have several families with kids under the age of 5 (16 toddlers total). I want to include the teenagers, but not the toddlers. I obviously won't be able to put "adults only" on the invite, but the envelopes of the families with babies will be addressed "Sue and Bob" -- sans the kids' names. Any thoughts/advice on this? I know it seems rude but our reception hall space is limited.

Thank you,
Molly

We didn't allow children at the weddings in my family b/c we didn't want them making noises or interrupting in any way. Have you ever been in church when some kid cried or talked out? That's what you don't want. No, no children is not being rude, it's self preservation.

flynnmoa,maybe you could put something on the invite like,OLDER CHILDREN are welcomed. I would not think it was rude,teenagers are certainly not going to throw a temper tantrum as a toddler would.

I did not include children at my wedding. I explained to my family that we were trying to keep things in budget. When someone outside of the family asked if she could bring her daughter. When I said there would be no children at the wedding, my friend was kind of insistent that I should make an exception. I explained that since I didn't include my family's children, that they would be hurt if I invited her daughter. She found that an acceptable (at least, I hope so)explanation.

Personally, I hate being a guest at a wedding where there are children seated at my table. My husband and I endured a toddler swinging her sippy cup around and the parents having a "YOU MUST EAT ALL YOUR VEGETABLES" marathon argument with the kids. I say that if you are going to have kids at your wedding, be merciful on all of us who left the kids home and seat the kid people all at one table so they can at least commiserate with each other.

This situation is happening with my nephew's wedding for June 28th.

My DD is 16, and on the invite envelope it said my name, my husband's name and our daughter's name. However, they do not want ANY toddlers or young kids at the wedding.

The problem? My niece, who lives out of town, is bringing her twins who are 7 months old and teething. Her mom (my sister) says that my niece won't come to the wedding if she can't bring her twins. We haven't seen them yet either! My nephew, who has always been close to my niece (they're the same age 31) hasn't been able to call her to tell her cuz he doesn't want to hurt her.

My sister can't seem to understand this. Coming up with things like.. they're coming from out of town, they have to pay for hotel room, etc. Doesn't understand that others are coming from out of town. Forgets that this newphew did A LOT when my niece got married 2 years ago!

Not sure what will happen but I just hope all goes well without too much drama!

Seems to me that if my niece refuses to come because of this, then she isn't really coming for his wedding. It's more for her and her twins.

But then again, my niece may totally understand and it might just be my sister who is negative with all this.

Like all social engagements- those invited are welcome to attend. We did include children at our wedding but it was small and casual but we did not include the latest boyfriend/girlfriend of the young people in our family and that was a huge issue for my 19 year old niece who wanted her boyfriend to come so she "wouldn't be bored". She asked, her father asked her stepmother asked and the answer was no,no,no. I had close friends who were not invited due to the size so I was pretty determined that every person in our small group was going to be someone I loved and who wanted to be there.

Good for you for standing your ground.

The absolute nicest wedding invitation I ever received stated "While they are welcome at the reception, a sitter will be provided for all children under the age of 10 during the service". Actually, they'd hired two; a teenager for the older youngsters, and a grandmotherly type for infants and toddlers who stayed in the church nursery. At the event, there was an usher siphoing off children to the nursery as they came in the door. Parents who insisted on holding their baby, were told that there was an audio system in the nursery, and they could enjoy the service from there, but NO children were allowed. There was no question as to whether adorable little Jason or dear little Jessica would be allowed in; if they were under 10, they went to the nursery. (period) The play room had a table set up with cupcakes and punch, a tv with a vcr and several toys and games, and it had ballons and some minimal decorations (I remember seeing streamers and a string of lights) so the older kids had their own party. I saw only a few of the older kids at the reception, (and NO infants) as apparently it was much more interesting at "their" party. There was also a quiet room with comfortable chairs that opened off the infant's nursery for breastfeeding mothers. (It was a very well designed church)

The wedding and reception were not all that fancy, but it was memorable in that everyone who attended had such a good time. No one felt pressured to "make arrangements" for their child(ren) in order to attend, no screaming, fussing babies ruining the ceremony, no squirming, fidigity kids distracting from the vows. For about $100.00, (cost of the sitters, snacks and a few party favors for the kids), the couple had the wedding of their dreams, and everyone left happy. What better start on a new life could you want that that?

That is a fantastic idea, bloobird. Sounds lovely, and fun for all :) Christy

Let me state my dislike of "BIG" Weddings right off, since I realize this makes me biased...$30K for a party? Bah. A desire to show off money the couple/family doesn't even have and an excuse to get blitzed is more like it. Oh, will the marriage last longer than it takes to pay off the celebration? How about a less formal and family-friendly event that still is beautiful? Several weddings I have attended all seemed the same to me.They all had the same drama, too. Okay, not the point of this post...

I see nothing wrong with stating "adult reception" if it is formal and includes alcohol and dancing until late evening. My cousin's bride wants NO KIDS,not even my perfect angels... :-P.
The ceremony itself? Well, I suppose that depends on the guests' ability to control their kids, and the kids' ages.
DH and I had a fairly casual reception, NO alcohol, and perhaps 20 kids, including 6 of our own. We invited people we cared about, who are a part of our lives, not just anyone we knew. MIL worried about forgetting someone, and yes the list grew, but neither of us looked at our Wedding as either "an adult party," nor as a means to rake in thousands of dollars in gifts. We wanted to share our happiness with people we love, and celebrate without fearing some drunken brawl or hurt feelings because we didn't want little Bobby to ruin our event. Had we been inviting a lot of people with very young children,perhaps I would have planned a "kids room." I think I'd rather have to tolerate one or two unruly children than several drunks any day. I have seen that nightmare first hand.
BTW-DS15 couldn't care less about not being invited to my cousin's wedding, but DD11 feels left out. C'est la vie...

"A desire to show off money the couple/family doesn't even have..."

You shouldn't assume they don't have the money, many do.

The problem is that every parent thinks it is the "other" kids that are the issue, not their perfect angels. You have to exclude all kids or include all, otherwise you are basically saying, "cousin Missy's kids can come because they are well behaved and Missy is a good mother, but cousin April's kids have to stay home because her kids are brats and she doesn't disclipline them". You can't let the parents exercise discretion, because most won't. And even normally perfect angels sometimes have a bad day, especially if the day means they miss a nap, eat food they normally wouldn't, have to sit still for a ceremony in a hot church, sit ignored at a table while grown-ups catch up, etc.

This isn't new. I am 40 and my sister and I never went to a wedding until we were teenagers (I was 16, she was 14), and my parents went to plenty. That was a casual, second wedding for my uncle.

We got an invite the other day -- Mr. and Mrs. Soandso and family -- I assume that means our two children (ages 6 and 8)?

The wedding is out of state (3 and a half hour drive) so we were planning a hotel anyway. Trying to decide if we bring the kiddos. There are attractions in the area I wouldn't mind taking the kids too. Also we won't know many people so the kids might be a nice diversion. Not planning on attending the ceremony.

It does make me wonder though if other guests mind if they are there The kids are girls and are well-behaved and past the tantrum stage. They may get bored though (I know I do!).

I was tempted to post a sacastic reply, "Yes, some like to show off the money they DO have." Then I realized this applies to many things, not just weddings. I was mainly referring to those in the middle class, as I personally don't know anyone who can afford $30K or more for a one day party, without someone getting into debt. What a silly way to start a marriage.
I agree about the OPK (other people's kids) aspect of this topic. I also have noticed a growing trend of children running amok ANYWHERE and EVERYWHERE. I personally would rather attend a formal event or even a movie without a young child in tow, but perhaps where the conflict begins is in different opinions of whether or not is supposed to be a "Family" event or a "Formal" occasion.
For me it is a family occasion, the same as graduations, big anniversaries, or other very special events.It isn't just about the Bride and Groom, but two families joining each other, including some little kids! Teenagers might be a bigger issue at a large reception where alcohol is served. No one tends to keep an eye on them.
For some folks, it is a once-in-a-lifetime event, a chance to have everything perfect and beautiful. However, even without kids, it seldom ends up that way. I guess I'd rather disappoint a few folks by not serving alcohol, dressing less formally, and having a reasonable budget, than offend a bunch by excluding their kids.

I think parents need to occasionally leave their children with a sitter. We raised our kids doing family things and we could take them everywhere we went. I realized later it would have been better for us as parents to have time without them and for them as children to know that there are places they can't go. I think it's better for all concerned. In case of out of town weddings and no children, I would take a teenager along to baby sit at the hotel. Then take them somewhere that is fun for children.

We got an invite the other day -- Mr. and Mrs. Soandso and family -- I assume that means our two children (ages 6 and 8)?

IMO, the invite is addressed to include your kids because it says "Mr and Mrs AND FAMILY".

If it were meant for just you and your spouse, it would have read "Mr and Mrs" only.

Something occurred to me. Many reception halls will charge you full price for dinner for a child. So.... if you do bring your kids, up your gift since the couple is likely paying $30 for their dinner (which they will likely eat $2.00 worth).

Remember also that it isn't just a question of children disrupting things. The presence of children, even very well-behaved one, simply changes the tone of an event. I am not thinking of drunken brawling, either; people simply dress, drink, and converse differently when children are present than when they aren't.

So it's not an insult to children's behavior if they are not invited to something like a cocktail party or dinner dance, whether it's for a wedding or anything else. If the hosts want a multi-generational family focus, that's one choice, but if they want a sophisticated grown-up soiree, that's a legitimate choice, too.

As to the previous post about the out-of-town niece planning to bring her little twins: perhaps she didn't even mean to bring them to the ceremony and/or reception at all, just to other events of the weekend that may be planned -- or, upon reflection, will decide that as the time gets close. I don't see anything at all wrong with her figuring that a family event is a perfect time for the other relatives to meet the new members of the clan, particularly if they are spread out and are rarely all together, and if you will take family snapshots. What do you want her to do, wait for a funeral? Weddings in far-flung families function as reunions. Of course the bride and groom are the guests of honor and the wedding is the main event, but the couple are not the only ones for whom it is an important moment.

Children and weddings is always a hot topic...

A few years back my oldest (and very dearest) niece was married. Most everyone was from both families lived out of town from the niece and therefore were travelling to where she was living for the wedding "weekend" (breaker party on Friday for those arriving early, wedding on Saturday, and picnic on Sunday)... months prior to the wedding we were told it would be an "adults only" reception on Saturday, but not to worry, they were arranging for babysitting for all the children.

At the time I my children were 12, 10, and 6... the invitations arrive and sure enough they said Family party Friday night, adults only reception Saturday night, and family picnic on Sunday afternoon... but there is no mention of the babysitting for Saturday night...

During many conversations with family members, no one is saying anything about the children AT ALL, even when I raise the issue of Saturday night. So, I called the hotel and looked into their "hire a stranger" service... which to say the least I was less than impressed with. Then about 2 weeks before the event it finally "slips" out that oh... didn't we know, all the other cousins ARE invited to the ADULT reception (ages 13, 14,15, 17) they are counting them adults.

Well... blow me down! I guess I was an a@@ for assuming that adults were 18+ or maybe even 21+ given the alcohol serving issues.... but no, we were told they drew an imaginary "adult" line... and gee... mine children were the only children in the family (both sides) not invited.... which, btw, means I do NOT have potential sitters witht he nieces and nephews (which explains the drop of conversation whenever I raised that topic!) And yeah, the niece decided not to arrange child care like she was going to. Didn't I realize this on my own?

Long and short of it was we ended up opting NOT to attend. We do not live near any relatives from either side of the family and we would have had to to travel on Friday afternoon and return on Sunday afternooon (at the bare minimum) to get to/from the ceremony and reception only. We didn't have any one locally to leave 3 children with for over 48 hours at a minimum....

Boy did we hear about the decision not to go from EVERY family member under the sun... how could we disappoint our niece this way???

Let's see... I was willing to let my children stay with a sitter... wasn't happy about the hotel service... but probably would have sucked in (although to be brutally honest here, I had expected when my niece did not arrange for sitters, that I would hire the other "older non-adult" nieces/nephews to watch them during the adult reception time.)

Several years later this is STILL a topic of family problems... and my oldest in particular, has little interest in her oldest cousin as a result of being "left out".... All three knew we were planning to attend the wedding and other festivities, and then we told all three there was a change of plans and we were no longer going.

I know my niece did not intend for us to be upset by an adults only invitation, and truthfully when we were under the impression that it was truely 'adults' and therefore NONE of the minor cousins we were fine with it.... by the same token I did not intend to upset a bride with our decision not to attend... but look at the position I was put in... we've all travelled here for a multi-day family event and on Saturday night I have to say to my children (while no one else is) that you can't come with us as it's adults only, but yes indeed your cousins who are not adults can come with us.... as a parent I could not do that to them... so we opted out...

To be fair to my niece, she later said if they knew how many people would decline to attend (most due to child care issues) they never would have done adults only.... remember... basically everyone had to travel, a fair distance (6+ hours in most cases), leaving on a Friday and returning on a Sunday, for the shortest of the travellers... so anyone with children had to arrange for weekend care for them... if they didn't live near other family not invited to the function, they either had to ask friends to take their children for a weekend, or bring them along and deal with the hire a stranger service.... when you don't have children yourself, you can't begin to understand how hard it is to find people to drop your children on for a weekend.... or how disagreeable of an idea it is to leave them with a stranger....

The whole topic just makes me sad... it's not that our family (entire extended family I mean) had "problems" with this... everyone understood why we opted out... or that they didn't agree with both sides of the topic... or that we don't feel it IS entirely up to the bride and groom to decide whatever they want (we do)... it's just a very touchy thing still years later... we've never been shown wedding photos yet we all know they exist... the wedding was never spoken about with us after it happened or in the years since... it's almost as though everyone in the family wants to forget the day happened when we're around... and it all could have been avoided with clear communication upfront...

I KNOW my niece wasn't prepared for us NOT to attend, she called me in tears talking about how their decision had caused so many people not to attend and how she wished she haad known ahead of time that would happen. My sister called, my mother called. All three understood our position and agreed with us. That did not change the situation, nor did we expect it to...

Those planning weddings with many out of area invitees with children really need to be prepared for them to decide it is best for them not to attend if they are not willing to have something arranged for the children of those invited IF they are not being invited to the festivities... Not everyone has childcare available for a couple of days and nights to be able to leave their children behind.

Now, several years later, my niece as a 1 year old herself, and was quite put out recently when they were invited to an out of town wedding without their child... Luckily for her it was a cople hours away and she could use a frined to watch her daughter for the day and still return home that night. But I admit to having a moment of 'ah... see the position you are in... this is what you did to others yourself'... but I still felt bad for her... because she was once again apologizing to me while complaining about this dilema she had....

If your invitation says & Family.... bring the children along...

I went to a wedding Friday and our children were not invited which was clear because their names were not on the invitation nor was "family". I can tell you I was relieved- it's hard for kids to get all dressed up and go be little adults for a few hours plus it made a wonderful night out for us to connect with friends from all over the country. There were some small cousins who were invited and they were great for a while but then they were bored and cranky and the parents had to leave early.

The other reason I was glad was due to the fact that the wedding was a friend's 23 year old son and I knew that his friends would be partying and drinking which they did and with kids age 9-13, I'm not sure that I would want them to see Cousin21 drinking and being stupid (which he was). I was glad they were home safe doing what they wanted to do with a relative.

We just received an invitation to a birthday party and it read "Chronological grown ups only please!"

I just like knowing upfront so I can plan accordingly.Its when it's unclear that it is annoying to me.

Plumby,

Same thing happened to me. My niece --- who was in my wedding btw -- invited just my husband and me and not our kids (9&7). It was a 4 hour drive and a weekend stay. Not to mention that there were flower girls from the grooms side in the wedding. I cannot tell you the hurt feelings this caused. My children are adopted, so they felt even more isolated.

The Rule of Thumb should be: Kids in the family get an invite, kids who are friends do not. That limits it some. But kids need to feel they are in the family and this makes a very clear, happy memory for them.

Growing up, there never was a family wedding when an entire family was not invited. We drove for 5 hours to attend cousins weddings. We still talk about the parties today and as a result feel closer. It is an event that ties a family together or can break it apart. Why take the chance --- just to make a picture perfect reception? Please.

IrishGirl