Tile saw is very easy and safe.. comparing to tools that cut wood or metal.

If you want, make note of the hose for the water pump, run over to plumbing dept. and get another 5 feet of the same size hose, run the hose into a 5 gallon bucket of water, problem solved -- clean water all the time, no more clogged pumps.

Oh, we have running water now - just didn't 7/4/07. My uncle's wet saw has a broken pump, we would rent a new(er) one if we are going to DIY. My uncle has experience (though he skipped out on DB and me when we were doing bathroom), he just has old beat up tools - prob. why he almost took half his hand off with a table saw about 10 years ago.

That taken care of, subway isn't bad. Get a sharp crayon and draw on it to help line it up.

China markers work just as well, and the marks come off the tiles alot easier later. ;-)

As for what you were told about one being more difficult than the other, that salesperson doesn't know what he's (or she's) talking about. There's nothing tough about brick joint, and that's the only difference.

There's two kinds of wet saws that I know of. One kind has a stationary platform, and you push the tile into the blade, the other has a moving platform and you hold the tile on the platform and push the platform toward the blade. You might like the second kind. They're more expensive, but if you rent them, it won't be a big deal.

Remember the blade has no teeth, it's just abrasive, so it's not as scary as a chop saw, and can't catch your finger and pull it in. Though Bill V. might say different.

There's plenty of GWebbers who can still count to 10 on their hands . . .

It sounds like you're working thru all the pros and cons of DIY. I hope whatever you do, you'll keep us all informed, ask as many questions as you need answered, and show us the results when you're through.

I really like the tile, BTW. The color is lovely with your granite.

Remember the blade has no teeth, it's just abrasive, so it's not as scary as a chop saw, and can't catch your finger and pull it in. Though Bill V. might say different.

Not at all. You really have to TRY to hurt yourself on a wet saw. The most that usually happens is you get a little bit of a rub burn where you touch the blade, and that's no big deal.

China markers? You clearly have a different set of tools than I do! :)

Honestly, a wet saw isn't nearly as dangerous as a chop saw. I had the same fear and my contractor friend ran his finger under the blade in front of me (yes, I shrieked) to demonstrate how little damage it can do. It's just like a big spinning emery board - ouchie if you really get your finger jammed in there, but not digit-slicing.

I did my whole bathroom in subways with only a snapper, then graduated to a wet saw for my backsplash. I can honestly only slap my head in retrospect, because it's about a zillion times easier, faster and more precise with a wet saw. Scout's honor! :)

Rent one and go for it!

I am a DIYer with a healthy respect for power tools bourne of watching my dad and uncle's extremely careful techniques as a child. I have a chop saw, and while I can use it, it took a while to get comfortable. I borrowed a friend's tile saw to do my kitchen, and it is SO MUSH LESS INTIMIDATING. I'm not saying you dont need a healthy respect for it, but if you can use a chop saw, you CAN use a tile saw. Before I had the saw I had to do a few cuts with a snapper, and it was miserable compared to the saw. In a way, used carefully, I think the saw is safer, and least in a newbie's hands! You certainly get a better product. It took a few practice cuts to get the feel for it, especially cutting corners, but it was so much fun to take on that project, and I'm still really happy I did it myself, though it is not error free.

And I love your tile, especially the subways.

Get the wet saw. Don't bother renting one....just go buy a really cheap one. I bought a cheap-o model many years ago and have cut countless tiles with it....ceramic, porcelain and travertine. I have also cut flagstones with it and some big black rocks for my columns with it. If it would fit in the saw, I didn't think twice about cutting it. those saws are just fantastic!!

OK....lets talk grout joints. For a newbie, I'd either use subway tiles or use the square tiles on a running bond so that the corners don't like up. Corners are the only hard part. If the four corners do not line up perfectly, it is more obvious. With a running bond (like brick is laid), there are no corners to line up. Use the little spacers thingies and get some wedges to keep the tile up off the countertops just a shade so there is room for a grout joint. I think the wedge thingies are called marble chips or something but they are made out of plastic.

With Bill V's encouragement & advice I purchased an angle grinder & did my 1st tile install 3x6 subways in the laundry area

BTW - Please ask Bill to chime in - You dont need thinset for this application - mastic is fine & easier

do the subways much more interesting & contemporary

good luck

China markers? You clearly have a different set of tools than I do! :)

I first ran across them when I was in the Navy. They were used for plotting courses on plastic nautical charts. Good stuff!! Link's below.

Use the little spacers thingies and get some wedges to keep the tile up off the countertops just a shade so there is room for a grout joint. I think the wedge thingies are called marble chips or something but they are made out of plastic.

marble wedges, and for subway tiles or the 4 1/4" square wall tiles, spacers aren't needed. They're built into the sides of the tiles, unless you'd rather have a larger grout joint.

Here is a link that might be useful: China Markers

Thanks - what the saleslady (owner?) was telling me about 4x4 being easier didn't seem to make sense since I *know* I'd never get straight vertical lines going up a wall, even if it is only 18-24". If the tiles aren't *exactly* the same size forget it, then there's human error and gravity! Whereas if I'm offcenter by 1/16" with 5" subway tile I don't think anyone's going to notice.

Thanks Bill - I was a civilian Navy employee for 22 years, know what you're talking about (we called them wax pencils). I never knew the wet saw didn't have a sharp edge. Just didn't want to get my hands within an inch of the blade if I needed to cut 5" long tile to 1" wide (not that would look good, but I can't figure out what to do over the range if I want to keep the courses running in line with the countertop behind the range, when the hood is 6" higher than the cabinets).

Any suggestions on how to handle the area over the range?

I hope I can do this - you can tell from my pics I've been living in unfinished house (at least trim). We've been working at it one room at a time (except no window casing up in my otherwise complete DR, BRs are done) and since the kitchen/FR is where we spend most of our time I just want it DONE! Not to mention my fear of getting water/crumbs down behind counter.

Now the only thing is convincing DH to spend $400 on tile...he just gave me a "look" last night when I told him which one I liked and how much it was. Though he didn't bat an eye when we went looking at marble subway tile that cost 2x as much (or more, for one sample) last weekend!

Oh WAX pencils. Like one uses to label glassware in the lab. :)

You can do this, AJsmama. And it's gonna look great. You have nice taste.

Hey! What great responses you're getting! And now you know about the wet saw blade -- it won't eat your fingers.

As for over the range, why not do a framed accent using the 4x4's on a diagonal (now that you're over the fear of the wet saw, it'll be a piece of cake)and use the matching chair rail as the border? There's also a couple of wicked awesome looking herringbone patterns on the FKB, you could try that-- if you're willing to put the time into the layout, and it sounds like you are, you can do a lot of neat effects that would cost you mucho bucks if you were paying a pro. The complicated diamonds or herringbone patterns are just a matter of layout and lots of cuts -- not hard, but more time consuming than a straight run.

And Bill is right about the spacers -- if the subways have "lugs" or "shoulders" -- basically built-in spacers on the unglazed sides -- the spacing will be a piece of cake. Not all subways have these -- the Home Depot cheapies I used had them, but the Lowe's cheapies didn't. Now that I've used the ones with lugs, I wouldn't go back, because it allows you to effortlessly get a tight grout joint. It's not difficult to use spacers to get tight joints, but the lugs make it positively brainless. Good luck!

I can't tell from the sample board if Horus Art has lugs or not. I was thinking 6x6 or 8x8 with a pencil border over the range. Horus Art has the 5x5 tiles (bottom of board) that match the subway but I'd have to find thin pencil since all they have is the thick rope - do you think that would be too heavy looking to use as a frame?

Herringbone is interesting but I'm worried I'd mess it up unless wet saw was also a mitre saw. Do you think the same subway would work - I was thinking something smaller? Didn't someone have some on a mesh backer that a pro installed but still looked like a zipper where sheets met? I think the 5x5 diagonals (so more like 7" plus grout plus frame - I have 14" height so use subways top and bottom) would look better, think we have to change the scale a bit.

Thanks for the compliments - the Horus tile is almost the same color as my Tec Kahlua Cream floor grout, instead of gray I was originally thinking maybe I'll do white grout to "negative image" my floor. So funny to hear people complimenting my taste b/c I struggle over these decisions, the whole kitchen/FR is *beige* (though rest of house is sage/jade green) and I have "dated" looking (brand new) oak arched cabinets (another thread) LOL! Now I'm adding more beige!

acountryfarm - can you post pics of your subway tile?

Going neutral with your backsplash is not boring or dated at all. It's just smart! A BS is not like paint....easy and cheap to replace later. If you go too bold or colorful, you may tire of it in a few years and replacing it is hard and expensive. Neutral is very smart.

If you did want to do diagonal, let me tell you...it is not hard to do at all. My tiles were not ceramic, they were travertine which made it much harder since there was slight imperfections and size differences. But that being said, it was still really easy. It did mean cutting a LOT of tiles, but there wasn't much waste at all since the starting row was just cut right in half (diagonally) and both halves were usable. This picture was taken prior to grouting. Notice I changed back to straight tiles behind the stainless shelf so I could do the diagonal mosaic above the shelf. Even this turned out great once it was grouted.

I do love your kitchen - along with so many great ones here. I brought tumbled marble home from HD and didn't like it in my kitchen so had decided on the subway glazed tile (matte but still smooth) until I saw ottertail's - which turns out to be tumbled as well! Seems I gravitate to that.

Thanks for the help everyone - I'll let you know what we finally do and post pics when it's done. I am doing the whole back of the house neutral (even Roman shades in linen stripe and brown microfiber sofa/loveseat) and will need GW's help decorating so it's not all beige. I did see a painting (stretched canvas) I liked at Pier1, but it's mostly beige (with some green) too. I'm not going to be able to get that until it goes on clearance ($400 for painting - I've got more luck convincing DH to spend $400 on b/s than a painting!).

Herringbone is interesting but I'm worried I'd mess it up unless wet saw was also a mitre saw.

Don't let herringbone scare you (although everyone gets nervous over it, even alot of pros). It's really a simple pattern, if you break it down and really look at it. It's simply rows of rectangular tiles laid in steps, first one way, and then the other, and back and forth like that.

Thanks Bill - for some reason I was thinking I'd have to mitre all the ends? But I still have the concern of how it would look to use the same size tile in a running bond and then do a herringbone insert? Wouldn't changing the scale look better?

Also, the back of my range is so high - I do have to continue at least the higher courses from the sides to have it look right (unless I totally fill the 31" space with a different pattern), but do I need to go all the way down to countertop height behind the range? By the time we need a new range we will be replacing countertop and probably the tile too (since I don't know if we can replace counter w/o damaging tile). But if we don't rip out the backsplash when we replace the counter, and buy a shorter range, I don't want to try to piece in another course or 2. So how far in the sides and down do I go behind the range?

Thanks for the info on where you are getting the tiles. I am in the Boston area. I wonder if the store selling for $8/sq foot has a website. Could you please share the name of the store? Perhaps I could call them up and see if I can order from them. Thanks again!

But I still have the concern of how it would look to use the same size tile in a running bond and then do a herringbone insert?

ajsmama-- if you look at the pic, that's almost what's shown there. Instead of just an insert, though, the whole wall changes pattern. There HAVE been a couple of backsplashes shown here that HAVE used a herringbone insert with subway tiles, and it looked terrific!!

Also, curious about WHERE in NW Ct.. Before I moved up here, I had a house in Terryville, right across from Lake Plymouth on 262. :-) (not to mention I've done work all over that part of the state from Danbury to Salsbury and Lakeville!)

Yeah, Bill, but that's the whole upper part of the wall. Just trying to figure out how it would look to do roughly (depending on size of "frame") 30x12 area above range. If you can point me to the pics I'd love to see them. What about how far behind range (sides/down) to go?

We're in Canton/Granby area up Rte 179 from Avon (44 to 179)

ni_2006 I found it for $6.85/sf at FastFloors.com, but the catch is that you have to buy all trim pieces (bullnose, etc.) by the box too so unless you need about 60 bullnose it's not worth it. Tedeschi Tile and Marble in Torrington CT has it for $8.60/sf with bullnose being $9.16 ea (at least they didn't tell me I needed to buy whole box). If you want the same color and can use about 48 bullnose maybe we can order from Fast Floors and split the order! Except they get you on shipping too - it was going to bee $150 S/H for 6 boxes. Maybe over a certain $$$ they give free shipping. Let me know if you find anything less $$$ - I'm also going to check Tile America in Hartford, I'll let you know their price too.

www.tedeschitile.com

You might try one of the two following urls. Even if you DON'T find the backsplash I'm talking about, it'll definitely be something to drool over. These backsplashes are incredible:

http://finishedbacksplashesslideshow.blogspot.com/

http://finishedbacksplashes2.blogspot.com/

Oh, yeah! I already drooled all over the first one last week - the "cushioned" tile insert! I know there are lots of subway (and lots of tumbled marble/limestone) in the slideshow. I'll take a closer look and see if I can find heringbone in same size as subway.

here's one

http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/kitchbath/msg0111551226467.html

Here is a link that might be useful: herringbone bs pic in thread

That's one of the ones I was thinking of. There's also another one with a little bit smaller feature that has red accents in it, but still done with white subway tile.

ajsmama, thanks for the info! The price I found was $13.99/sq foot for the 2.5 x 5 tiles, so the prices you found are definitely fabulous. The only problem with sharing the shipping is that I am leaning towards the bianco color. Please let me know what kind of prices you get from Tile America in Hartford. Good luck with the installation! It's going to look great!

ni_2006 - I thought you were rethinking Noce instead of Bianco after I posted pics. Anyway, Tile America doesn't seem to carry Horus Art (at least not on their website). I can check other local places (I hear Atlas Tile in Wethersfield has large selection, but again not sure they carry Horus). The people at Tedeschi are very nice, if you have a large area to do it may be worth ordering from them and shipping to Boston, or you could take a drive down to CT. If you need a lot of trim pieces then FastFloors may work out for you. I just didn't want to order field tile from Fast Floors and trim from Tedeschi just to try to save $60 or so - the S/H would probably eat that anyway.

Evilbunnie - thanks, that is beautiful in the white, but I wonder how it would look with the tile I picked? Those tiles seem to be skinner (maybe 2x5 or 2.5x6) and I wonder if that makes a difference in the herringbone. I was wondering how 5x5 on diagonal would look like the middle of subway, or even the 4x4 (they have some really nice accent tiles and I can get pencil to match) in the LaFaenza mixed with the Horus? I'll have to take a pic with some of the Roman Stone White laid on top of the Noce subway sample board. If you can find the one with red accents Bill was talking about I'd appreciate it, b/c i couldn't find it.

Bill - I will email you. Your friend may not want to drive up from Middletown to do a b/c, but I'd like to have his number for when we're ready to do the master bath (at least floor and tub deck, may do walls too since other than shower/toilet room, there's really not much wall space that'll go all the way to the floor - with tub, vanity, and doors in tub area, it's mostly backsplash). Thanks.

We'll see what happens. I DO know someone in Granby, but this guy's elevator doesn't quite make it to the penthouse, if you know what I mean. I'll see about giving the guy in Middletown a call today and see if he's interested.

I'm starting to feel like a mobster over here!!

Ehh yeah... I gotta guy who knows a guy who can take care of that thing for ya. One call, and fuhgeddaboudit!!

:-)

Don't rush - I told the assessor in Sept (when they sent someone by to see how much we'd finished in the year since our CO) that we'd finish the master bath sometime b4 ds (who's 10) was in college!

The guy in Granby might come to do a b/s, but I'm not sure what to make of your comment - would he be able to do subway, maybe with a diagonal insert (not herringbone - I think this tile is too big to do only about 12" high insert - would only be a couple rows)? He's gotta be better than the guy who did my floor (and didn't use thinset b/t the subfloor and backer), right?

Let me put it this way-- I wouldn't feel right recommending him. We had a commercial company years ago out of New Haven, and this guy came to work for us thru the union hall. His work was acceptable, but he himself was a little off kilter, and I wouldn't feel right sending him into someone's home.

Thanks Bill.

Here's the pic I promised of Roman Stone White insert on Horus Art Noce subway. What do you think? Size-wise I think it'll work (I only have 14x30 with this tall range) and I can get pencil to match. Do you think the colors work together? They're all pretty neutral.

This may be a moot point. I brought toddler bed over to my cousin (carpenter, he was laid off last month and has been doing work on my house), mentioned I have a cabinet that never seemed to be secured properly to wall and I'd like him to fix it b4 I put tile in. He thinks we should just do Formica (like his house - our grandparents remodeled the kitchen in yellow Formica and dark oak in the 80's) b/c it's easy to clean, or just stain up some more oak (he's going to do some trim on my island and some crown) and use that to hide my gap. Maybe it's b/c he's never had any $, or he's out of work, or maybe he is just totally practical (he said grout would be hard to clean, I agree I'd never do tile counter in kitchen), but I get the feeling he is frowning on my "splurge" for tile. Or maybe he's just hoping I'll have him build custom bookcases instead (we have talked about it, but since he's building 2x8x1 cases in 1 piece, I need warm weather so I can finish them in garage).

DH did give me that "look" when I said tile would be $400. Stock in his company went down again this week - not below $5 (like it was in Nov) so not a "zombie" stock but maybe he's worried about his job?

Should I just go with cheap oak (1.25" or 3.25" or something) for about $50 instead of the tile?

Oops - here's the pic

{{!gwi}}

Bill -- as long as you're not threatening to give someone thinset shoes, or warning them that they're gonna sleep with the grout floats!

Should I just go with cheap oak (1.25" or 3.25" or something) for about $50 instead of the tile?

Sorry-- I can't tell you which way to go with it. I know which way I'D go, but I'm kinda partial, too. I WILL say I like the tile combination you showed in the picture, though! :-)

evilbunny-- Nah-- they don't do that no more. They use ya for chum. Just ask Jimmy Hoffa!

Bill - I like it too, I'm all ready to order. I guess I'm just feeling guilty about spending $ when other people are having a hard time making ends meet. Unless he's the one doing the work ;-) but in this case he isn't.

Sample board has mastic oozed b/t tiles I think - doesn't seem to be a different material than used to affix to board. I was wondering rather than grout (would probably do unsanded with small grout lines), would epoxy be better? I've heard it isn't as great as it's cracked up to be though? Or caulk each joint? Or mastic like on sample board, let it ooze out and wipe smooth? What would be easiest to clean/maintain?

ajsmama - sorry to hijack.... just wanted to say even though I have no professional or design opinion to add, I have enjoyed reading this thread so much for the trip down memory lane!

I grew up in Southington, my mom lives in Cheshire, my sister lives in Burlington and it was so much fun to read all the town names in your exchange here :) Had relatives in Durham, Bristol, New Britain, Terryville, Plymouth, Avon, Wethersfield............ ah man, I miss CT!!

BTW, can't wait to see your finished pics. I know how much you have been agonising over your backsplash plan. :)

Still DO have relatives down there. I have one sister who lives in Southington, my brother is a fire marshal out of the Orange office (where we grew up), and he lives in the BOW area, and then the rest of my sisters (3 of them) all live in Branford. :-)

I guess I'm just feeling guilty about spending $ when other people are having a hard time making ends meet.

Nothing to feel guilty about. You've worked hard for what you have, and so long as it won't put your OWN well being in jeopardy, do it the way you want. You'll be sorry afterward, otherwise.

would epoxy be better? I've heard it isn't as great as it's cracked up to be though? Or caulk each joint?

Actually, it IS all it's cracked up to be. It's no miracle cure for all the grout woes you hear about, but it's close. It's also extremely expensive overkill for residential installations with few specific exceptions. As for caulking every joint, it'd be much more trouble than it's worth, and next to impossible to do a nice clean acceptable job.

Hi Bill!
still have family there, also. I get to come home and visit at least once a year. Living in the cornfields of Indiana, I miss the mountains and the ocean...... and the wonderful food *sigh*

Thanks Bill. I'll have to check with DH to make sure we can afford it. Company is sending him to TX end of March so he says he knows he'll have a job til then (LOL?)! Should I not worry about unsanded grout then, if epoxy is overkill (and since these aren't glass tiles)?

Katie - what food(s) are you missing? I grew up around here too and I'll tell you there is nothing native to this area (not the shoreline) that I missed! Maybe my mom just wasn't the greatest cook - fish sticks, mac and cheese, pigs in blankets were my favorites growing up. Hated the pot roast!

Now if you're talking lobster... or LOBSTA as Bill probably calls it now....

ajsmama-- I was just looking back, and I'm sure it was this thread where I told you to use the sanded grout (because for whatever reason, I thought you were using glass mosaics) Maybe I've got too many things on my mind-- but for the last tiles you pictured above, you DO want unsanded grout. I'm so sorry for the confusion.

ajsmama: haha. my mom is a pretty good cook, but I miss the restaurants the most. REAL pizza (they think Pizza Hut is real food here)greek food, chinese food, and fresh seafood are what I miss most. Huge fan of lobster, clams (quahogs we dug ourselves!) and whole belly deep fried clams..mmmm...... it's one of the first things I eat every single time I go home. and they don't have D'Angelo's here, just now getting Dunkin Donuts.... oh, I could go on and on. My DH never understood why I made such a big deal about 'real food' until I brought him to New York.....LOL.

Thanks again for the side trip down memory lane..... it's been so much fun!

BTW Bill, DH has a fraternity brother who used to (still does??) work for the Orange Fire Dept. and my old college roommate (ECSU) was from Branford :) small, small world! of course, most places in New England are small compared to the stretches of the flat mid-west!

DH went to ESCU - what year did you graduate? We are still trying to find good pizza here (couple local places are hit and miss), no good Chinese. There was a really good Chinese place in Norwich when we lived there briefly about 18 years ago. I miss the sushi and seafood we had in RI! Other than the seafood (which really isn't "native" to the Berkshires LOL) you miss the ethnic foods rather than the native foods it seems. No Greeks making pizza in IN?

I didn't graduate from ECSU. I quit after my first year which would have been in 1981/82. Gee, when I went there it was actually still called ECSC....LOL. okay, so I am seriously dating myself :)

Let's see, my fav pizza places were in New Britain or Southington. I left CT in '91 so I don't even know if they are still around.
But see, if you miss a place in RI you just get in the car and you are there in no time! If I drive North for an hour I am still only on the other side of Indianapolis. Man, I remember jumping in the car with a friend just because we felt like walking around in Newport. Never gave it a thought :)

Yes, I miss Ethnic foods. Anyone who knows how to cook true ethnic food never seems to move away from the Coasts. But boy do we have a gluttony of steak places around here.... yuk! And the pizza? Try No Greeks in Indiana, period! and no Diners.... and no Italian......well, except for Olive Garden (oh joy!) haha

Dang, now I am hungry for things I couldn't get no matter what I was willing to pay! we will be in CT and The Cape this summer and I will eat, eat, eat. :p

BTW Bill, DH has a fraternity brother who used to (still does??) work for the Orange Fire Dept.

Then I'm sure he knows my brother Jamie, as well as a friend from high school named Kieth Anderson. :-)

Let's see, my fav pizza places were in New Britain or Southington.

Vesuvio's or Zupardi's in West Haven, and I can't remember the name of the place, but down in New Haven, there used to be a pizza place that was supposedly one of the top 10 in the country. It was down on Wooster Street, right by Delmonico's Restaurant. Man, I HATE brain farts!! LMAO

Bill, was it Sally's or Pepe's??
Used to go for pizza there when we went bar hopping in the Yale area :) Man, those lines were loooonnngg on a Sat nite!

I can't wait for hubby to talk to Izzy and see if he still works at the Fire Station!

PEPE'S!!!

Thank you!! I've been going NUTS over here trying to remember the name of the place!! LMAO

ALmost forgot-- another guy I know on OFD-- Charlie Gagel-- I was in boy scouts with him when I was a kid. :-)

Local NBC affliate here was running "Best of" all the local places, asked about Sally's vs. Pepe's. But I've never been to New Haven so had no idea what they were talking about. But we're not going to drive 2 hrs to get to RI (more like 3 to get to Newport) or an hour to get to New Haven just for pizza. So we are looking for places in Canton/Avon, Winsted. Can't find a good place in Granby. Took dd to bday party Sat, they had really good pizza (hand-stretched dough) - from Big Y! I wasn't too impressed with the "best" sushi place in Simsbury.

If you ever get to RI, go up Rte 5 from Warwick into Cranston, go to Haruki's. I hear there's one in Wayland Square in Providence too. THE BEST!!! And I've eaten sushi up and down the East Coast (just not the really $$$$$$ places).

Wow - we got really OT there! But I went to Tedeschi to return samples, told them I needed to figure out what to do around window and above stove b4 I ordered, then I saw these Vallelunga tiles! I'm starting a new thread so I don't bore everyone with what we've weeded out (and all the talk about take-out!).