I'm not sure that I'd just rely on butting the styrofoam against the bottom of the siding to "tighten things up". You might want to consider some more reliable/permanent way to seal the bottom of the siding from leakage if that is indeed where your problem is coming from.

Tuff-R has a perm rating of 0.03, so to add another vapor barrier would just be duplicating things. Obviously, the joints between the styrofoam panels are susceptible to moisture & air intrusion, but you could tape the joints with styrofoam all-purpose tape to tighten things up.

Thanks for replying. I was planning on taping the joints but I'm also assuming the stucco coating would help in that regard as well.

For the connection between the siding and rigid board, I was planning on just putting a whole lot of caulking sealant of some kind (again, that's why the contractor is coming for advice/info) to seal that area. The biggest reason for me doing this job is R-value and air infiltration, probably the latter. I already have a "nice" white painted foundation and don't really need a stucco coating for aesthetics. I'll try and get the most basic type of stucco, if there is such a thing, to keep my price down on the installation. My goal is the 2 inch board application.

Just fyi.. I have all new windows and doors, and insulated everywhere. I'm just wondering if this next step is a good choice and how to go about it.

Any ideas of prices on what I described? Just so I know what to expect. The foundation is

I have a partial memory to the effect that having the foundation visible between ground level & siding was a good thing. It was something to do with insects. I can't remember any more than that. Does anyone know what the reason is?

With the foamboard plaining in even with the siding might be setting yourself up for moisture problems getting behind the stucco, as the stucco application totaled is usually 3/4" thick.You might want to consider going with a 1" foamboard, which i realize is less r-value, but will keep the total foam board/stucco application a little under the siding, allowing water to run off.You'll also want to tuck some "L" flashing up under the siding, if possible , to divert the water away from the stucco.Your caulking idea is good or you can go with a low expanding foam that comes in a can.Make sure on the lathing install that there is a weep screed flashing at the bottom of the foamboard. This will have to be attached with masonry fasteners. It's a perforated flashing that allows moisture to drain down and out and holds the stucco coats from sliding down during the "mudding" process.

Thanks again.

That last post lost me a little with the technical stuff, but that's OK. That's why 'm hiring a contractor, BUT he has'nt showed up for the estimate in two days. "Today or tomorrow" and nothing... I've grown to expect this from contractors. Sorry to the good ones out there.

Anyway, I just wanted to educated myself a little before going into this venture. I appreciate the replies. Of course i could put it all in his ands and forget about it, pay him and be done, but I've found that not always the prudent thing.

The siding is 2-2.5 inches up to 3+ inches away from the foundation, so I'll be OK in some parts at least. The house is a rectangle, so it should'nt be a big deal to wrap it either.

I'll call one more number in the Yellow Pages, if they don't show, I'll try and do something on my own. I was going to offer and install the foam board myself anyway, because I wanted it to be a perfect seal on the foundation.

OK Update*** Stucco contractor just left. He only uses the white styrofoam looking rigid insulation. I don't think that has a high R-value. He would'nt use what I suggested but I don't know too much about this stuff other than it has a higher R-value. He said it would'nt stick to the surface of the insulation I mentioned.

$2500 for the job. I'm having doubts, but i told him to go ahead and do it. He'll put the exact amount needed for the siding and two coats of the cement stuff, then paint it two coats. At least it will look good. lol

I hate this uncertainty. I'm not totally satisfied, but I DID stress that I wanted an airtight seal. That is more important than the R-value at this point because I do have insulation on the inside of the house/basement.

Any thoughts on this method he's using? Also, does anyone know the R-value of the white styrofoam stuff? I could'nt find it searching.

The foamboard he is using has indentations or holes that aren't all the way through the foamboard on the side that will be mudded. These "holes" give the mud something to grab on to.Using foamboard is a two coat process as the foamboard eliminates a coat. Normal paper backed lathing is a three coat process.The foam he will use isn't as thick as you wanted, but as in my upper post to you, better because the stucco will be under the siding a bit, not allowing moisture to run behind the stucco causing possible mold problems.You might want to run it by him about tucking some flashing up under the siding, if that's necessary. Also you will want to go ahead with caulking or spray foaming up under the siding as you had planned, because as formulaross stated, just applying the foamboard probably wont make it completely air tight.I dont know the r-value of the foam they will be using,You might want to call a builders suppy in your area that carries masonry/ stucco products as they normally carry the foam panels as well. The person doing your project should know as well.The stucco coats being about 3/4" when completed should give you a little extra r-value as well.There are also insulated paints.

Yes^^^ I will be getting a non expanding or minimal expanding spray foam tomorrow and fill the whole underside of the siding to prep for them. After the job is done and IF the siding and stucco meet at the same point, I could maybe caulk the line where they meet with flexible caulking. Not understanding the whole process in it's entirity, I was'nt willing to tell him how to do his job. I DID tell him my concerns though, and he was giving me feedback regarding them. Not FULLY to my liking, but feedback noththeless.

Maybe I should look into the insulating paints. He offered to finish the job until ready for paint and it would cost $700 less. $1800 instead of $2500. Then I'd have to paint it. Maybe I can get that paint and do it. I could decide at the point it's ready, so I'll see how things progress and go from there.

Appreciate the replies.

Don't forget ,if you have appliances inside your house that use indoor air for combustion you could be setting up a negative pressure situation the more airtight you make your home,the air will need to come from somewhere and will start drafting into window jams and even light switches. Culprits include water heaters, furnaces, and especialy fireplaces and woodstoves. Can't do much about kitchen exaust hood.Just something to consider as we make our homes more and more airtight

There is a reason your shingles overhang the roof.

You don't want the stucco to be flush with the siding. Water WILL get in behind the stucco, and will freeze and crack. Don't rely on caulking as a foolproof method against water infiltration. It will eventually fail.

Also, make sure to install some type of flashing, as a previous poster mentioned.

Finally, why are they painting the stucco? I thought they could mix the color into the final (topping) coat. This insures the color goes all the through, and you don't have the problem with chipping paint. I would think the stucco would have to cure for some time before any paint could be applied.

Good luck.

Well, this morning I cancelled the job with the contractor. There were too many uncertainties that I did'nt know the solutions to, that made me cancel. I asked him about the flashing, he was'nt putting one. I did'nt realize the caulking alone would'nt work. I also was'nt excited about the lack of R-value the white styrofoam would give me... I need to do more research before I do this. All your suggestions are NOT falling on deaf ears. I'm taking them and trying to get the best solution for my needs. If I had done this job, I would have had a very nice looking foundation but that was'nt my goal. I want an air infiltration blocker and an R-value increase.

These are the pics of my foundation and siding. If you can see the first line in the underside of the siding. Maybe i can put something in there, like an L-Bracket to the wall and down the wall with insulation inside of it to block everything (like mentioned above) and go from there.

Hope these pics work..

[IMG]http://tinypic.com/k4chdw.jpg[/IMG]

I tried, but could'nt get them to work. I know I'm placing the wrong prefix on there.

[IMG]http://tinypic.com/k4cjv5.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://tinypic.com/k4cj81.jpg[/IMG]

Saw your pics. It's pretty much how i envisioned it, so i dont understand the problem.Foaming the underside before the foamboard/stucco application. I would still insist on tucking some flashing under your last course of siding.You are probably not going to gain much more of an r-value with an extra 1" of foamboard.If your looking for a significant r-value gain, then maybe you should think about reworking the inside of your basement.Another thought is for you to get some advise from a energy/insulating contracter. Maybe they have some kind of miracle r-value system that will work on the outside.

Thank you sierraeast. The 2 inch board I was planning on using has an r-value of abour 7/inch. I figured 14 - 15 plus the stucco added would have given me a good R-value, PLUS the airtightness. I do have to rethink this though. I was hoping some "insulating pros" here would see the pic and advise. lol No big deal, I'll figure something out. Anyway, like I said, it's an easy configuration. Just a rectangle shape house with a 2+ to 3 inch gap I could use. I figured I'd throw something in there. After using those 2 inch rigid boards in my attic, it gave me this idea. I just did'nt know the correct procedure and was hoping a stucco service would know and has done it before, but they were'nt familiar with the "Insulating and airtight" terms as much as I hoped.

They charged $2500. If I kept searching for a very qualified contrsctor, I'm sure it may be more than that. I think I'll hold off until I get some definitive answers for myself. I insulated the attic, I'll see what that does for my heating bills for now.

Thanks for all the help.

PS I'm not looking for this job to "pay off" with energy savings. I just like it to be done right and the house to be comfortable. Saving on utility bills is secondary and a plus. The amount I spent in the attic is a lot, but I love the fact I don't have the heat running constantly now.

Your siding/foundation is similar to mine, in that you have 2 feet or more of exposed block. And I agree, it does get cold when the outside temps get down low.

Home Depot sells flashing for over windows that might work. It is L shaped with a small 1/4" lip at the end. The L part is around 2" vertical, and maybe 1-1/2" horizontal. This might be able to be slid under the sheathing. It comes in 10' sticks, IIR.

Keep us posted. I may steal your idea if it works out. But this is very low on my 1928 foursquare's list of rehabs.

Since it's the middle of january in the Northeast, it may not have been a good time for stucco anyway. I might have to wait until spring for this project. Thanks for the Home Depot flashing info. That might fit perfectly. Putting some spray foam under it and applying the flashing to get a good seal. I'll have to look at it.

Just fyi and your house may not call for it... I just installed more insulation in my attic and it's a world of difference in comfort levels. The house seems to be retaining more of the heat and the heating units seem to be running less. I can't wait to get my utility bill and compare. Maybe you can look into that. i hear that's the number one place to start installing insulation, in the attic. I'm so glad I did.

We added 8" of fiberglas to the existing 6" loose fill last year, running the rolls perpendicular to the joists.

It did make a difference. The walls had been blown in before we purchased the place, (didn't know that before moving in-pleasant surprise) and that makes a huge diference. But there are places they missed or it has settled, as I have found during remodeling, and there are a few cold spots.

So, I will blow some more in, as well as continually finding and sealing air leaks. We have a small wood burner in the living room, so that helps keep the gas bill under control.

I have found that the air leaks are easy to find when it is below zero outside.

^^^ That's great. I thought I was getting a great insulation factor by placing it all around the house when I rehabbed. I had it professionally installed and put it everywhere at the max levels I could except the attic where I only had 6 inches of space. I now realize that air infiltration is also key to keeping the house protected and fiberglass insulation does'nt stop air movement. Had I known that or if the contractors I hired would have informed me, I would have been more careful to do it. I did'nt even wrap the house with anything, except I did install a .5 inch rigid board and taped the seams before the siding, so that may be the same thing.

Anyway, "air infiltration" is key in addition to insulation alone, for anyone doing a rehab and the like. I'm now going back and trying to fix things.

I agree with finding leaks during cold spells is easier. Especially true when my forced air heat is running and it's sucking the air through the electrical boxes and cracks. I don't see how a foam gasket can do anything to fix the problems with leaks in the electrical boxes. I would think if the air is inside the wall already, right on the other side of the sheetrock, what good is it if you block it then? You need to block it on the outside of the house before it comes into the wall cavity, correct? Should I waste my time with the foam covers for outlets? I was thinking of spray foaming the back of the e boxes where the cable comes into the box, where the hole is punched out. Maybe that in addition to the foam gasket might do something. X all the boxes in the house, maybe?

I really need a blower door test. If I keep going at this rate, I'll need an HRV unit, which I should have installed at rehab in the first place. I wish I knew these things earlier.

Here's a link I found for the flashing. The middle pic is what I may want. It will ensure I can use a thick enough insulation and still keep water out. i did'nt see these at Home Depot yesterday, though.

Here is a link that might be useful: {{!gwi}}

I would say the "Z" flashing most resembles the flashing I mentioned, except that the stuff I am talking about is bent at 90 degrees. But anything that goes up under the siding and over the foam/stucco will shed the water away from the foundation will work. The "J" channel pictured wouldn't be good, as the water would get in at the top.

The .5" rigid and tape is a great air barrier. The best is supposed to be Tyvek©, as it is a wind but not moisture barrier, and supposedly will not trap moisture inside.

I am using the foam gaskets for outlets and switches. You are correct that it would be better to stop the air before it gets inside the wall, but it is also good to stop it AT the wall, as opposed to not at all. They are inexpensive and easy to install, so that's what I am using until I can remove the siding and Tyvek© or rigid foam/tape my exterior walls. I am leaning towards rigid foam, as that is what I used on a small addition at the rear of my house. It is relatively inexpensive, easy to install, has R-value, as well as being reflective against radiant heat/cold.

As far as which boxes to apply foam gaskets, I would say just exterior, but in some houses I suppose the balloon framed walls may leak air from the attic. At a couple bucks per bag of 10 or so, they are cheap fixes, even if not the best.

DO NOT put spray foam insulation into the electrical boxes. I learned on the electric forum that this is not code. The foam is not fireproof, although I understand they make some that is. A spark in the box, (not unheard of) and a fire may ensue. There is also the red fireproof caulk to seal where the wire enters the boxes.

No one is looking at this issue like I am, think of your house as a sealed box, if your appliances( woodstoves, furnaces, water heaters, fireplaces ) are exausting the air out of your house, you are creating a negative pressure or vacume (spelling?) inside the box. Air will have to infiltrate back into the box as makeup air for the air being pumped out. The more you seal up the leaks the harder it will try to get in thru smaller cracks and even flowing backwards thru flue pipes. The awnser is to use outside air for combustion and with direct vent appliances. Wind blown air will still try to get in, but not like the draft from an appliance. Try to achieve air pressure equal to outside ambient and the leaks and drafts will disapear.

chaz, thanks for the info re foam and electrical boxes.

beaglebuddy, I am familiar with that concept about building envelope. I just did'nt install an HRV system when I should have, like I mentioned above. What's one to do other than install a system like that? Is there another way around it or just leave the cracks and gaps alone for infiltration and equalibrium? That part confuses me a little. It's sort of being stuck between a rock and a hard place.

My interior is all closed up and it would be VERY difficult to instal an HRV right now.

Also, all my appliances are direct vent. Heat, hot water heater, microwave, bath exhausts... I have no traditional chimneys.

I also have an unconnected hot water boiler which is direct vent, that I may connect for baseboard heating and radiant heating instead of the forced air on the first floor. blah blah... it never ends.

Direct vent is a type of appliance that has one pipe for combustion intake and one for exaust, using no inside air for combustion. Is this what you have ? certainly not for micro and bath exaust. You could build a closet around the furnace and/or water heater and run a seperate pipe into the enclosure for combustion air.

No bb, that is not what I have. I guess I'm still learning. I just remember that when they sold me the hot water heater and boiler, they said it was a "direct vent" type. that's why I reiterated that. I thought a DV was just an appliance which was vented forcefully (horizontally outside of the wall or otherwise) instead of with a chimney type instrument. Thank you for the clarification.

My two forced air heating units are in the attic and it's unfinished with a gable vent near them. A lot of (cold) air gets in through the vent when they turn on. Maybe that would do the trick. It does seem that it should somehow get air INTO the living space though. I definately understand what you mean about the negative pressure.

I'll have to look closely at my units to see if they are indeed direct vent and if they're even installed properly. The hot water heater has a 3 inch PVC pipe going straight out the side of the house, that's it. The boiler (not hooked up yet) is the same way, near the HWH in the basement in a closet with louvered doors. The two units in the attic have that ven like I described. I need some kind of house audit... but the pros I hired to do the original work should have mentioned all this. I'm just learning this now after reading here for a while. thanks again for all the replies. I'm learning a bit from this.

One more thing, I can't stop talking here... lol If I have both vents, in and out, at the same location, would'nt the "out" air just come back "in" with that setup? It would seem like a circle exchange of some kind and you'd suck the "old/bad" air back in.

No, won't do that. In fact many direct vents are a pipe within a pipe terminating with a dual cap thingy. They want them close so they are in the same pressure zone. I don' t know if a house audit would help often those home inspector types don't know anything. I always say if you want a job done right you have to do it yourself. Or at least learn how it's done right and then hire someone to do it as you instruct them to. Is the attic and basement part of the heated house ? Are they open to the outside air ?

The basement is finished and insulated with the house. It's not adequately heated, but it's good enough. It's just spare rooms really. The attic is not finished or livable and it does have the gable vent on one wall with the fan on the opposite wall. It's only insulated on the floor of the attic, no walls or ceiling, and I have both forced air heating units up there. I may insulate the ducts a little more. I just finished adding more insulation on the floor to the existing 6 inches I already had.

So if the attic is open to the outside it doesn't matter about the heaters up there. The boiler and water heater in the basement are part of your heated house and not open to outside aparently. Go outside and stick your hand near the flues when running, a lot of air is being forced out of your house,right? Air that you spent money on to heat. An equal amount of outside air is trying to get back into your house to replace that air being blown out, in fact it has to get back in or you will be living in a giant vaceuem chamber and every time you would open a door the air would come rushing in. I have seen this phenomenon in a restraunt that had powerful exaust hoods blowing the air out, first thing I noticed was how difficult it was to open the front door, it opened outward, when I finally pulled it open air came rushing in all around me. The problem they had was the flame rolling out the front of the water heater every time the hood came on as air was coming into the building backwards down the flue pipe ! Can you build a closet around the water heater and boiler and have vents inside the closet open to the outside ?

The attic heat units still suck up air from the house and exhaust it through it's chimney through the roof, correct? I don't know...

Here's a pic of my water heater and boiler. I have'nt hooked up the boiler yet. I have the first and second floor on baseboard heat and the kitchen floor on radiant heat with the boiler whenever I finally do hook it up, to replace the first floor forced air heat.

There is a door but it's louvered and would probably have to be replaced. ??

Here is a link that might be useful:

As for the water heater and boiler, they apear to be conventionaly vented so you could put new doors on this room that seal tight with weatherstripping and you would need to find a way to bring in outside air for combustion. You will need a certain free erea of duct a formula determined by the btu of boiler & w/h. With one opening in the upper part of room and one in the bottom. You live in a very cold erea and opening this up could present another set of problems in regards to freezing pipes. Perhaps someone on this forum has experience in this regard. I live in sunny California and this is not an issue. So the attic funace is or is not open to the air in the rest of the house ?

No the attic area is separate from the house. It is only floor insulated and has the gable vent and motor driven exhaust on the opposite wall.

The basement is half underground. From the pic, I have space only from the bottom of the window and up(street level).

I find that a lot of air gets sucked in through any openings while the forced air heat is running on the first floor.

Attic apears to be ok then as the air that is being drawn into furnace for combustion would be coming in from outside thru gable vent, right ? Do you understand my idea for a duct coming into w/h room ?

Correct, about the attic.

I have seen those exact instructions to the WH room that you've explained. I thank you for your patience.

I really need a pro to come check out everything but it's VERY hard to find someone that you can tell, that KNOWS what they're doing. There are people that look like they know what they're doing because they know more than you, but in the end you find out that they don't know it all. I've had many experiences like this when rehabbing my house, that I dread calling someone else, ESPECIALLY after the sheetrock is in and it has to be a "neat" job.

Thanks again for all the help to everyone.

Like I say, if you want a job done right you have to do it yourself. I also like to say K.I.S.S. keep it simple stupid.