if I make it another 10 years, I'll be 85 and by golly, that's what I'm eating. Course old habits die hard and I'll probably keep on rendering the fat and filling cans to go out with the garbage.
kay

Sometimes I buy bacon just for the grease. I'm frequently mistaken for years younger. I love bacon on buttered toast with BBQ sauce...mmmm! Now I have a craving so bacon will fall in the shopping cart soon.

: )
lyra

I'm on the BLT wagon with lindac. Another sandwich tonite - this time with Cherokee Purple slicing tomatoes!

I believe that much of the "accepted wisdom" of our age, like that of so many previous ages will be found to be woefully inaccurate. So much of what we're taught about health is based on research and statistics that can't begin to take in all factors.

I've long suspected the dire warnings about dietary cholesterol. I realize that anecdotal evidence is...well...anecdotal, but there is enough of it that contradicts what we're so often told for me to believe that there is something (maybe lots of things) that we simply don't know yet.

Genetics plays a far greater role, I think, than we yet understand.

I suppose that if my doctor announced tomorrow that I'm ready to drop dead of a heart attack at any moment unless I cut out red meat and fats and eggs, I might rethink my food philosophy. Then again, maybe not.

I eat what I like, in reasonable portions and great variety.

The real issue is whether the bacon comes from healthily raised pigs or in dreadful confinement facilites and whether it's been cured with nitrite. (or nitrate, whichever it is.)

laceyvail, do you have any links to actual research showing that pigs raised in "dreadful confinement facilities" make for better, healthier food?

I know that it has become "accepted wisdom" that meat animals raised or slaughtered in ways deemed cruel are in some way unwholesome, but nobody's been able to give me any proof.

Understand, I'm not saying it ain't so. I'm just saying I don't know that it is so.

Is the "stress" of being raised in a crowded pen worse than the "stress" of running free but hunted every minute of life by predators different? Does either "stress" poison the meat?

Animals in confinement facilities live in their own filth. They can barely move. They are fed grains which leads the meat to be very heavy on Omega 6 and no Omega 3 fatty acids. The sows are bred constantly. They must be fed antibiotics to keep them from getting sick. It's a horrible way to raise an animal, and the meat is not healthy compared to an animal on pasture--yes, hogs can be raised on pasture and the meat is superb in every way.
As to hunted animals, they do not live under stress every minute of the day, only for those brief periods when they must escape a predator. It's similar to the difference in humans between the brief stress experienced in a fight or flight situation and the constant stress of a bad job, or living in fear of being laid off, etc. The latter is much, much worse, and our bodies do not function well when under constant stress.

Take a look at www.eatwild.com for more info on the importance of raising animals on pasture.

Oops, I just noticed that I made a mistake in typing out my question, "do you have any links to actual research showing that pigs raised in "dreadful confinement facilities" make for better, healthier food?" I left out the word, "not"...

Do you have any links to actual research showing that pigs NOT raised etc is what I should have written. But, it seems you figured that out anyway.

A website advertising the benefits of grass fed meat, operated by someone who makes her living on touting the benefits of grass fed meat is not my idea of a link to actual research. I'm sure she means well, but trying to read through some of her articles is like trying to read through alarmist PETA literature. Lots of claims and grand, sweeping statements, but no footnotes.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not convinced either way. However, I have a skeptical attitude when it comes to all the warnings about everything that is unhealthy and killing us that we are offered every day, mostly from people having a vested interest in promoting/selling something.

Life expectancy keeps going up. We live longer, healthier, more active lives than our great-great grandparents did, but we keep being warned about all the things out there that are killing us...mostly by people who want to sell us something more expensive! I would posit that more people die world wide of starvation or at least, inadequate nutrition than die of eating meat raised in ways that make it easily affordable for the average consumer.

The stress of a bad job might kill me, but would it make my body parts less nutritious for a predator who ate me?

This is the kind of anthropomorphizing that leads to broad claims regarding the "unhealthiness" of meat in general or meat raised in this way as opposed to that. If it would make me unhappy to live in a box, a cow would feel the exact same way. It is mean and cruel, so therefore the cow's flesh would be unhealthy to eat.

Eh?

We are also told (by PETA types) that our methods of slaughtering animals...no, our CRUEL way of slaughtering animals cause all sorts of potentially toxic substances to be released into the meat. As though the way a lion rips out a belly and begins to dine while the prey is still bellowing is less traumatic. Meat eating ain't never pretty, that's about the size of it.

Posted by rachelellen - laceyvail, do you have any links to actual research showing that pigs raised in "dreadful confinement facilities" make for better, healthier food?
I know that it has become "accepted wisdom" that meat animals raised or slaughtered in ways deemed cruel are in some way unwholesome, but nobody's been able to give me any proof.
Understand, I'm not saying it ain't so. I'm just saying I don't know that it is so.
--------"

I too have the same curiosity. But before I say anything further, let me first state that I dont believe in animal cruelty, and hormones and antibiotics in food.

Questions:

1. Same as rachelellenÂs?

2. Why are we living longer and longer, life span and life expectancy-wise, that nowadays our food supply is mostly chemically/industrially grown/fed? Even our dietary habits are getting worst by the day?

3. Why is that in some areas (Hong Kong, Macao, etc.) where they depend on the most polluted food supply have the longest life span and life expectancy?

4. How many people can afford food if all meats are raised free-range, hormone and antibiotics free? How many people will die of starvation world-wide?

dcarch

Rachelellen, apparently we were writing at the sametime. LOL

dcarch

Didn't somebody, somewhere, say that great minds think alike?

:D

Jo Robinson has written articles for the New York Times and is an acknowledged expert on translating scientific studies to lay persons. There are many many studies showing the benefits of conjugated linoleic acid (CLA), which is found only in pasture raised animals and disappears when those animals are fed grains; studies of the importance of proper balance of Omega 3 to Omega 6 fatty acids and the imbalance in modern animal products because of the way they're raised and the even worse imbalance in people. I could go on and on.

Yes, people are living longer now, but that's mainly because the diseases of epidemics, tuberculosis, deaths in childberth etc. have fallen to modern medicine. However, the chronic diseases of the modern diet--diabetes, obesity, etc. and greatly increased cancers-- have enormously incresed the cost of health care. Our diet is unhealthy, and even the food (meat, dairy, eggs, fish--most fish is farm raised now and full of Omega 6, not Omega 3) that should be healthy no longer is.

No offense intended, but the fact that someone has written articles for a newspaper doesn't impress me. Someone being an "acknowledged expert" in something doesn't either. My first thought is, "acknowledged by whom?" My second is, what is the person's "expertise" based on? Have they any actual education or training in the area in which they are supposed to be expert?

Ms. Robinson's self-promoting website provides no personal bona fides that I can find. Did she go to college? Graduate High School? The website doesn't say.

"There are many studies..." Yeah, there are many studies. That says nothing except that someone could afford the paper to print them on.

You make the statement that the increase in our lifespan is mainly due to advances in modern medicine. Modern medicine has indeed increased our lifespan. Is it your assertion that our improved diet, the greatly increased access to variety and quantity of foods has nothing to do with it? Modern dentistry has done much to keep teeth in our heads, but regular access to, and an awareness of the importance of vegetables and fruits has done it's small share as well.

I'm not even going to address the causes behind increased costs of health care. This is not a political forum, nor is it a publishing house for aspiring novelists.

But, I will address your assertion that our diet is unhealthy by asking the question, is it our foods that are unhealthy, or the ways in which we prepare them and the amounts of them we eat?

I've not seen definitive research that links diabetes or cancer to what our meat animals eat or the conditions in which they are raised. (Obesity, by the way, is not a disease, it's a condition brought about by the consumption of more fuel than one expends.)

What I have seen, are many claims by persons of dubious credential and motive that just about everything under the sun is killing us, even though we keep living longer.

All I know is that I never started to gain any weight until I started counting fat grams...BOOM...suddenly ballooned up in weight. Went on a low carb diet and BOOM...suddenly lost it all! Back down to being skinny. I will never concern myself with fat grams again...although I do avoid fake fat (hydrogenated oils) like the plague!

I'd also like to add that the people that are "living longer than ever" are the old folks that have cooked their meals at home all their lives. People that are now living to be in their 90s are from the old generation of people that ate real food! I'm curious to see how old these people that are eating fast food each day live to be?

Well, I also read an article last week about a fit old couple in their eighties who had been vegans for a number of years. They grew their own veggies too and rarely ate dairy, but did occasionally.
But who wants to hear about that!

"Posted by arkansas_girl -----I'd also like to add that the people that are "living longer than ever" are the old folks that have cooked their meals at home all their lives. ----"

I hope I am not sounding like I am for treating animals with chemicals and hormones. I am not. I go organic as much as I can.

Life span and expectancy are calculated by averaging the entire population, old and young, not just old people. Yes old people are living longer, so is everyone else.

dcarch

OK excuse my ignorance but how can you say a young person is living longer? How do you know how long a young person is going to live to be...that makes NO sense whatsoever!

I realize that anecdotal evidence is...well...anecdotal, but there is enough of it that contradicts what we're so often told...

Rachelellen - Can you quantify "enough of it"? Have you, or anyone else, compiled this evidence such that it's meaningful at all? Of course if anyone has, then it could be considered a "study" which, as you know, isn't worth the paper it's printed on.

So my question would be, what's the point of arguing this all the time? Sure, every study can be contradicted. For goodness sakes, in these modern times there are actually still people who don't believe mankind is largely responsible for global warming, even though last count that I saw 97% of climate scientists do! What should we do, stop all scientific research and roll the dice because someone is going to find some way to contradict the evidence?

Until there's evidence that pesticides, antibiotics, rolling around in one's own feces, etc. actually promotes health, I don't think it's unreasonable to think "natural" foods are better for you. Even without reading a single study.

I'd weigh in here, but I'm typing with one finger due to having broken my right index finger and it's just too time consuming.

Animals raised in confinement are so unhealthy that they require antibiotics just to live. I don't need voluminous studies to tell me that healthy animals make healthier food, or that the many antibiotic resistant bacteria are from an over exposure to antibiotics, so I don't care to add any more to my diet, thanks.

As for sources, this is what the USDA says:

"The continued use of antimicrobial drugs to promote growth in chickens, cattle and other livestock is tied to antibiotic resistance and should be phased out for that purpose."

Yeah, I know. You don't trust the government any more than you do the doctors, but I can tell you that my cows are happy just being cows, I haven't had a vet on the place in at least 10 years because I haven't had a sick animal.

Annie

"Posted by arkansas_girl -----OK excuse my ignorance but how can you say a young person is living longer? How do you know how long a young person is going to live to be...that makes NO sense whatsoever! "

I am probably more ignorant about the science of statistical analysis than you. I am saying possibly it means this:

People who used to die at 80 y.o. is now dying at 85 y.o.
People who used to die at 50 y.o. is now dying at 55 y.o.
People who used to die at 20 y.o. is now dying at 25 y.o.
People who used to die at 5 y.o. is now dying at 10 y.o.

Makes no sense? It doesn't matter. In any case, that it is just a curious question that I have. What matters is what FOAS said, natural food is always better, and what annie said, a happy cow is always a better cow.

But the other very important question concerns me is that, given the fact that over one billion people are hungry, are happy cows more important than people dying of hunger?

dcarch

I doubt we can have our cake & eat it also with regards to our food supply.

Due to many reasons but including genetically modified food, pestisides, herbicides, fertilizers, & what we all agree are deplorable living conditions for chickens, hogs, & beef combined with antiobiotics & hormones food yields are higher today than 50 years ago. That results in lower food prices here in the US & across the world (yes, I know we also have the government subsidies but that's another topic). Also, many of our agricultural practices contribute to runoff that polutes rivers & streams making fish unhealthy for consumption.

It's possible now to purchase food from growers that practice sustainable agriculture, free-graze their animals, do not use pesticides nor herbicides. Their animals are hormone free. Of course, their products are costlier because their yield is less.

Are we all willing to pay more for our food to have the quality? DH & I purchase organic dairy & produce whenever available. In fact we go out of our way to seek it out (largely due to Annie's preaching - lol). We're now also buying 100% grass-fed beef, we don't buy poultry nor pork that's been injected with some type of "flavor enhancers". We're purchasing now organic produce & putting it up for winter consumption. Some products we've not switched to organic. For instance, I still buy KA regular flours. The organics are so expensive I've not yet pulled the trigger & made the switch. With the increased costs of what I hope are "healthier" foods we've had to substantially reduce the quantities & varieties of what we consume both in order to stay within our budget allowances & also because some products are just not available organically. We also maintain a food storage program. It's going to take some time to get that converted to more organics. We're doing that via new purchases & rotation of older items.

Sometimes, it's not even about the food product itself being healthier grown via "organics". It's just about knowing we're buying from somebody who's doing something to reduce the amount of chemicals going into the soil annually. Or, fewer pesticide sprays.

dcarch is right about feeding the world's population. There's no more large land areas to be converted to food production without seriously jeopardizing the ecosystem (cutting down rain forests) more than we've already destroyed. So, the only way to feed the ever increasing population is to increase yield per acre.

Are we all willing to make the sacrifices necessary to, so to speak, put our money where our mouth is? Everybody complaining about current mass-agri business already buying all organics, free-range, etc.? Or, driving all over town trying to save $1.00/lb. for chops? Are you still feeding your family the cheapest butter available? Good quality, hormone/antibiotic free, etc., butter is between $5.99 - $8.00/lb. here. Obviously, we don't eat much butter anymore. That translates into much less baking. If you don't like mass-agri business there are lots of alternative choices available. You'll just have to seek them out...and be willing to pay the provider of those products a fair price for their labors & costs. It took us over 2 years to source many of the products we're eating today versus shopping at our local chain store.

We're blessed. We can afford to buy organics still putting enough food on the table we're not going to bed with our stomachs growling. Most of the world cannot. Should they go hungry? I think it's a very valid question.

We also can't ignore food preparation methods in looking at today's food health issues. Sure, chicken fried steak, mashed potatoes, & gravy is good but it's not healthy. Pasta can be good, especially if it's whole wheat, but it's not healthy to eat pasta 10+ times/month...especially with today's serving sizes. IIRC, a serving is 1/2 cup cooked pasta. So, how many of us only eat 1/2 cup? What happens when the sauce is cooked with chicken, pork, & beef?

Food & health is a large issue both in the US & around the world. There's no one single answer. And, there's no one single reason for the problems.

/tricia

No, dcarch, they aren't more important, but that's not the discussion here.

I raise grass fed beef and there are more efficient methods of producing protein. However, much of my pasture is untillable, either being swampland or blowsand. However, my cattle will graze on the plants that will grow there and so produce beef on that soil. Not all cattle will eat swamp grass, but my herefords will, so I keep them. Of course I also keep a couple of horses whick take up space that could also be used to grow food, but I can't even get people to come and pick my overflow, they want me to buy the seeds, plant, hoe, water, weed AND harvest, and then give it to them in jars! Instead I pick my extras and donate it to the local senior citizen center, at least they appreciate it.

Since people are going to eat beef, or whatever, you'll never make a world that doesn't consume flesh, it's unrealistic, I promote the idea that we should eat less in lieu of giving it up altogether and then we can have both happy cows AND feed more people.

Yes, I know, there go any profits I might have made. Sigh. I'd rather eat 4 ounces (a reasonable serving) of good beef than a pound of the sub-standard stuff anyway.

All things in moderation and hold out for a bit of the good stuff instead of a bushel of the cheaper but not as good type.

Annie

OK so let's say that less younger people are dropping dead these days that raises the statistics of age in our country. I believe that has way more to do with modern medicine than it does with people eating good or bad foods. I can think of all the people that I know personally enough to know their medical history which is mostly just my family. Of the family that I have still living...almost no one but me would be alive right now if it weren't for modern medicine. Actually I wouldn't be here either because my Mom would have died giving birth to my oldest sister.

Really...this younger/fatter generation....how old cab they really expect to live? Being obese, diabetic, with high blood pressure and heart diseases...will this generation live to be in their 90s? I highly doubt a person 100 lbs over weight will live to be as old as the little skinny 90 year old people that are still chugging along today! I don't know any obese 90 year olds myself!

So just a side note..

My husband is according to "standards" an overweight man..he also happens to be black..so there are supposed precursors to "genetic" diseases as he ages..

He did not develop High Blood Pressure until about 10 years past the age his uncles did.(However he was in the Marine Corp and had to PT(physical training) almost every day of those 8 years and prior to that was a college football player.) His doctor can find no "blood" markers to explain his HBP. Other than possibly the excess weight. In the last year his sugar levels are bordering on Pre diabetic. (as most know 'someone' keeps lowering the levels as to which you begin medication) Since developing these issues he's not working out like he used to and has become mostly sedimentary. ~which I think is the real issues..

However when his blood work comes back it always surprises his doctor. His cholesterol is amazing given the "other issues" as is the other "blood" based things they check for.
When my husband told him what he ate and how much of it..Meats, pork fat, eggs in a week...He was surprised and said "must be genetics"...

My silly winding point is...genetics plays a huge role, activity another HUGE roll, and I think the final role is what, how and how much we eat.

I started loosing weight and most importantly belly fat when I added "good" fats to my diet. Avocado, unprocessed tropical oils.
I use bacon fat (from home (pastured) grown and nitrate free bacon). I use butter. I use organic butter for eggs, and "Dressing" things. I used regular butter for baking. (because of cost)..

All of our milk is organic, eggs are organic, but mostly pasture raised from a friend, I buy most of my produce as organic, and grow stuff too. I use organic flours in my baking and often naturally processed sweeteners.

These changes are not "cheaper", in fact some things cost almost double per use. But they are changes I can afford to make.

And like Annie, I use less of things to counter act the expense.

I think the truth lies somewhere in between the documents, tests and articles.

But truth to me, is what I chose to do and the choices I make for my family. Limiting fast food and convenience products can only strengthen their bodies for the future.

Limiting or removing GMO's, hydrogenated fats, and stock yard meats and buying as local as possible and know what they are eating is my goal FOR MY FAMILY.

rachelellen, if you need the science, try first the eat wild website page titled Scientific References. I believe you'll find a link to all the scientific studies anyone would need. If they're not enough, try these links listed on the eatwild website:

Grass Fed Beef is a cooperative project between California State University, Chico College of Agriculture and University of California Cooperative Extension. Its purpose is to provide a scientific review of the literature available on grass-fed beef, to provide information on how to develop a label for niche marketing of beef products, to provide recipes for cooking grass fed prooducts, and to provide updates of grassfed beef research. http://www.csuchico.edu/agr/grassfedbeef/mission.html

National Center for Biotechnology Information's Pub Med. Go here to read abstracts of the medical studies cited in this website and in the Comments and Endnotes section of Why Grassfed is Best! If you want the complete papers, you'll have to retrieve them at a medical library. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/PubMed/

Pasture for Dairy Cattle: Challenges and Opportunities. This article by Donna M. Amaral-Phillips, Roger W. Hemken, Jimmy C. Henning, and Larry W. Turner gives a comprehensive overview of grass-based dairy nutrition. http://www.ca.uky.edu/agc/pubs/asc/asc151/asc151.htm

The science has been clear for at least 20 years, but the public is only now becoming aware of these issues, in great part because of science writers like Robinson. She has no reason to make this stuff up.

This has certainly turned into a lively and interesting discussion to read.

I, for one, lean toward agreeing with rachellen and dcarch.

I don't believe in animal cruelty. either.
But I do believe in people not going hungry.

There was a time in my life when I could afford to buy organic products.
Honestly can't say I was any healthier then than I am now.
And I am much older now.
So I do not believe that non-organic is causing me any harm.

Not everyone is blessed with the financial resources and/or the where-with-all to produce their own food.

Rusty

Funny! when I saw the title of this thread, I thought it was going to be about spreading bacon grease on your face. Then I pictured my dog begging me to lick it off!