Lutron HomeWorks, Legrand Vantage and LiteTouch are all central processor based systems capable of almost anything one can imagine for lighting control. And Crestron has added lighting control to their integration system. Choosing between them can get technical but often comes down to which keypad style you prefer, which system is best supported in your area or which dealer you like best.

If you also want electric roller or roman shades the advantage shifts to Lutron. They have the quietest electric drives and best integration between their window shades and lighting control system of anyone. To the HomeWorks processor the Lutron shades are just another dimmer. It is possible to tell a room full of shades to go to precisely any percentage of open/closed in near silence.

If you want all of your other electrical outlets to match then again the advantage goes to Lutron. They have receptacles, wall plates, telecom outlets, regular switches, non system dimmers, all available in the same colors and styles.

I'd not group Leviton in with those other two names.

lutron.com
vantagecontrols.com
litetouch.com

dim4fun, wondering what your background is, because there was a question I asked awhile back that didn't get many replies, and I think you might be able to answer it (basing that on your posts of the last few days/weeks)?

Behind me is a beige wall with medium oak framed windows and pleated shades.

Please ask your question again and I'll do my best.

"Behind me is a beige wall with medium oak framed windows and pleated shades."
LOL!

Ha! The question was (and with apologies to the OP, I would have sent dim an email, but there isn't one listed on his/her home page)...can I use a monorail lighting system made by one company, but substitute pendants from another company? I assume the substitution would have to be just the pendant head itself, since one company's "connector" system for attaching the pendant's cord to the track will be different from another company's. Thanks.

I saw that question and thought you had a pretty good answer. This is a guess. No. Because: #1 The system parts are UL/ETL listed together by the manufacturer. No one would go the expense of gettng parts listed for someone else's monorail as there isn't enough demand as there has been for some track lighting. #2 The parts don't look compatible at all in the ones I've seen from different companies. #3 Warrantee - You'd could be in the middle of finger pointing with no warrantee of any kind if something broke.

We're going to use a new control product named Life:Ware to control things. It's based on Microsoft Windows Media Center. Supposedly it works with most lighting systems and also controls A/V, security, etc.. The lighting control system I've seen advertised with LW is Vantage.

I guess, based on dim4fun's answer, there are a bunch of systems that are all good.

Thanks for the feedback.

There are a bunch of lighting control systems. Not all are good. The ones I mentioned are the best. Some are terrible (Leviton X-10 based stuff can be extremely frustrating to live with but is cheap.) The differences in systems can be big when really living with them and you should understand how your choices can affect what you end up with.

LifeWare lists the major dimming systems on their partner list including the ones you and I mentioned. You still need keypads or switches. Most people don't put touch screens everywhere. It may not sound like a big deal but there are people who don't want to navigate a menu to turn on a light. Keypads are a more direct user interface. The old fashioned single light switch on the wall is the most direct and user friendly. Where this breaks down and where lighting control systems make the most sense is for large homes and large rooms with multiple zones of lights and several switches per room. Then we want to start thinking of how the room will be used instead of which switch in row of switches we want to turn on.

I've not worked with LifeWare. "New" and home electronics "integration" are scary words when used together. No company hits the ground with a perfect product line up. At some point they need to start selling something while R&D continues to fill out the product line and take care of problems. You're brave.

lifeware is using Windows Media Center plug-ins/attachments to interface with other company products for control of their equipment (lighting, av, etc). I think its promising, but you wouldn't see me doing it. It's pretty much bleeding edge and has too many operating parts for me to be comfortable with. I prefer the more 'hardened' systems that Vantage, Lutron, Crestron, and Litetouch have developed. All of those systems are top notch and can handle just about anything.

I would stay away from power line controllers and the like (PLC/X-10). While there is a lot of progress with UPB and others, its still susceptible to more problems than good hardwired systems.

Update: After talking with Vantage, Lutron, and LiteTouch my gut feeling is LiteTouch. Any feedback about what to do or what not to do?

I think we will still try LifeWare. I run a software company and we like to experiment with bleeding edge -- but only internally, never with our customers.

WOW Litetouch looks great. How hard are these to implement into a current home?

Where can you buy them online?

You cannot buy any of the central processor based systems from anyone other than a certified dealer trained in the design, installation and programming of that specific system.

I'm more familiar with Lutron and Vantage and both of those have wireless systems available which can be installed in existing homes without tearing up the place.

Check out Lutron's Radio RA for something wireless that can be purchased and installed without certification.

Still trying to figure out wiring for new construction and this thread sparked a couple of questions.

It was suggested today that I use Lutron Radio RA for lighting control, to be tied into Crestron's Adagio system. I stumped my dealer when I asked, why would I use Radio RA instead of hardwire when this is new construction and my walls are all open? Does anyone (dim4fun) have an anwser to that?

Also, dim4fun, I understand from your posting above that one advantage of using Lutron is their coordinating plates, etc. The dealer I met with today, suggested that I use Lutron RA but also operate through the Crestron LCD pads. I'm confused and have tons more research today, but would appreciate any of your insight into such a configuration.

I have some guesses but without more info just guesses.

Some audio/video contractors are not skilled at lighting control. They may want a system to tie into that your electrician can handle mostly on his own. Radio RA could be that system. Any electrician can buy Radio RA and install it like normal dimmers with some thought given to range of repeaters. Radio RA without a Chronos system bridge/time clock is a bit more affordable than HomeWorks. How many zones of system controlled lighting are you planning?

Using Lutron HomeWorks might require bringing in another contractor certified in that.

If you haven't yet, visit both Crestron and Lutron websites and look at keypads. Many prefer Lutron's engraved, backlit SeeTouch style which come in dozens of colors. I believe with the particular Crestron system you mentioned you can choose black or white.

I am using RadioRA and one big advantage to a system like RadioRA is the elimination of a large gang of switches. I mounted the 5-gang banks of switches in hidden locations like a closet or my pantry. In my family room, I have a 5-button master control to 'talk' to the individual switches. Instead of seeing a bank of switches, I have an attractive single-gang master control. Also, I didn't have to worry about 3-way and 4-way switching because I can program any button on any master control to control any RadioRA switch.

I realize this is a somewhat old thread, but I'll contribute anyway. I have a Vantage system installed and if I could do it again I would not use Vantage. For me, one of the key points of a home automation system is flexibility and Vantage Controls appears to prefer to keep that flexibility in the electrician's hands and not the honeowner's. Homeowners with their newest and fastest controller, the Infusion controller, who wish to program it themselves will not be given support by the company. In fact, the company which sells training classes to electricians and architects will not allow a homeowner to pay to attend a Vantage-offered class on programming their own Infusion controller.

If I want to program the lights in my children's bedrooms to go on at 6:30am then, according to Vantage, I should call my electrician and pay them their minimum trip charge to come out and spend 30 seconds programming my system. Does this make sense?

housemademepoor - what a great sceen name! i can relate.

it shouldn't require an electrician or computer programmer to make these changes but unfortunately that is the case with a lot of these systems - particularly the higher end ones.

i chose to go the route using a lower cost system that I can program myself - Insteon products and Houselinc software. These products are limited in what they can do and have had some quality control problems (most have been worked out) but I can easily change the programming ontrols at my desktop. I installed it, can expand the system, and maintain the system myself. And that was more important to me than the functionality since I believe that over time the functionality will improve.

It would be great if someone would make a higher end home automation system that a DIYer could install and program. Unfortunately, I don't see that happening anytime soon.

I have been very pleased with my Insteon deployment and the true test is that the DW loves it! She wasn't sure why I was spending 3 grand for all these switches and controllers but now that it is up and running - she has seen the dimmed light! And for me, that is really all that matters.

sniffdog: what is unfortunate about the Vantage Infusion product is that it is a higher-end and programming it is relatively simple, but Vantage's policy actively discourages and financially penalizes homeowners who want to program their system themselves.

I think systems like Insteon or Control4 will continue to improve their capabilities and will, eventually, marginalize the higher-end home automation companies. I wish I had seen the light earlier!

Can you explain how Vantage is able to financially penalize the DIYer - I am curious.

In my last house, I was very frustrated with the security system company when I wanted to expand my system and they wanted to charge me a lot of money to do it (400 dollars just for another keypad!). I was laso very upset when I found out that I added additonal (and very ugly) smoke detctectors to the alarm system that were not needed - i could have used a very simple interface from the alarm controller to the detectors already required by code for the house. So I vowed that in the dream home, which we just finished, there would be nothing in the house that I could not install or maintain myself. I did not care what I was giving up in functionality - I wanted complete control of my home.

I don't know why these companies punish the DIYers. I would think that the DIY market is relatively small from a market & sales percentage. However, DIYers also tend to be the ones who are on the boards talking up great products and tinkering around to make them even better. If the product is that good - it's like having another sales and marketing team out there talking up the products. On the other hand - these same DIYers can crush a product if it stinks or they get screwed. Seems kinda short sited to me.

I thought about using Control4 - a very nice system. But I could only get their products through a dealer and that was another thing I avoided like the plague.

sniffdog:

I presently have a Vantage Q system installed. The Q system controller is, in my opinion, rather sluggish. There is a much faster controller, Infusion. If I want to upgrade to Infusion I am told that my dealer MUST do a full reprogramming of all keypads at a cost of over $3,000! This is outrageous when I can program all of my keypads myself in a couple of hours. According to Vantage, even if the dealer wanted to allow me to program my system, the dealer would not be permitted to do this--the dealer must charger for a complete program!?

Furthermore, although they used to permit it, Vantage no longer allows homeowners to attend Infusion programming training classes.

HMMP - wow! Now I understand your frustration.

3 GRAND for a new controller! That sounds like a much larger scale of what happened to me on the security system when I wanted a new keypad.

Vantage must be caving to pressure from the dealers since the real money is being made on the service charges and not the electronics.

Thanks for the explanation.

Sniffdog: no, the $3,000 is NOT for a new controller--I was not counting the controller cost. The $3,000 is just to pay the dealer to program the keypads--something that I can easily do myself. Including the cost of the controller and its physical installation doubles this figure.

Vantage Controls' official position is that they do not permit the controller to be installed without the dealer programming it.

OH MY!

That would be enough to make me rip out the entire system -but I know you can't do that. This is terrible - what a total rip off.

For 6 GRAND you could completely do your entire house - and I mean every switched light - with Insteon or similar products and have money left over to spare.

Are you using this system for simple light controls - scene's, etc? What else does the Vantage system do - it must have some very specialized features to demand that kind of a price. Does it have an integrated security system and other automation features that you are using?

WOW - this is staggering. Now I can really understand your frustration and I see your point. You might be willing to shell out 3 grand for the better controller but want to save 3 grand by doing your own programming - and that makes complete sense.

Let's face it - they would send over a tech and you would have to stand there and tell the guy what to program. Even if it took a day - and let's say they paid this guy 30 bucks an hour ( a high paid tech) and charged double that for overhead and fee, and it took all day. That would still be less than 600 dollars! How can they possibly charge 3 GRAND for a days work - it's robbery!

"What else does the Vantage system do?"

Vantage can make the house sing and dance. All of the central processor based systems are capable of using conditional logic, sensor input, and astronomical time clock. Some have energy saving automatic zone rollback to prevent lights from being left on accidentally yet allow for any kind of programming needed. What all lighting systems can do sounds similar because the concepts are the same. The differences are in the hundreds of details in system design possibilities, installation, programming and interfacing. A high level of proficiency is not attainable by the typical DIY for one project. It takes many projects to become proficient. Even after a week of training with factory hardware and software engineers students can struggle to pass the test. Some brands require students to work with a mentor for a few jobs before allowing them to be factory trained as a way of insuring a high likelihood of success.

For those of you that have purchased a high end lighting system and want to be able to tinker with your programming at least one company has a hand held programmer that can be left with a homeowner and also a "homeowner" version of software that can be installed on the homeowner's PC. If the lighting control processor is connected to the home network it is a fairly simple process to log in and tinker but it is possible to make a mess so keep a copy of the unaltered data file to put back.

About the $3000 programming fee. It depends on the system size and complexity to know if this is reasonable or not. If the poster asked Vantage they will usually quote high prices. If you ask a couple of Vantage dealers to estimate the processor upgrade and reprogramming you may get some different numbers. Always use someone qualified.

dim4fun: the $3000 is to program 45 keypads with 4 to 8 buttons each with each button basically turning on one or two loads and with a large amount of duplication. I am not an expert Infusion programmer and it took me less than 3 hours to create a program for my keypads. However, Vantage has told me dealer that they cannot use my program--they must bill for and create a program themselves. Hence the $3000 charge. Vantage even told the dealer that they cannot simply install the hardware and enable the keypads and let me do the programming. Combine this with Vantage's refusal to let a homeowner take an Infusion training class and you can see that Vantage really appears to not care much about the homeowner.

How did Vantage become involved in a discussion that is normally between you and your dealer? Vantage does not get this involved on a case by case basis and there is no way for Vantage to know if your dealer let you program unless you tell Vantage yourself. The dealer would need to tell their local rep what they are doing to get into trouble and everyone would normally look the other way to help out a special, non typical client that wants to get involved and "help" program their own system.

Call another dealer and start over leaving Vantage out of this. You'll find one that will be happy with the processor sale and a per hour charge for programming if you need help. Just don't plan on calling Vantage tech support for help programming.

I have a small Insteon system, which works quite well.

Insteon is totally open. For $100 (IIRC) they sold me a "Developer's Kit" which includes everything you need to actually build a new Insteon product from the ground up.

dim4fun: During the course of my installation I got to experience all sorts of problems--led lights dimly lighting when other loads were turned on, fans not spinning at the correct speeds, wallplates falling off, keypad buttons sticking, ...--and eventually Vantage got involved. Unfortunately uninvolving Vantage once they are involved is not doable and it is not feasible to work with another dealer while they are still trying to finish my job (which started 2!!! years ago).

solar

I have a question on Insteon, maybe you know the answer. I have two keypad linc devices that each have a button that performs the same function - turns on/off path lighting. The problem is that when I turn the path on at one KPL and then off at the other, the button on the first KPL get's out of sync. This requires me to press that button twice sometimes. I am using toggle mode for these buttons.

Is there anyway of programming the KPL's so that two buttons on two KPL's can be synchronized? Does the developer kit provide that level of programming or can this be done via the houselink software.

If I had this feature, my Insteon setup would be perfect. The occasional 2 button push is a minor issue - I love Insteon the system.

house: Is any of this component failure or was it dealer/installer failure? Vantage sent out a different dealer to fix all of the problems?

Sniff,

I recall there being some way to program the button on one controller to respond to a button press on another controller. I think it's pretty much like programming a dimmer to respond to a button, but I've never tried it out.

The Developer's kit is at a different level--it gives you the information to develop products. I bought it because I was thinking of building a nightstand controller that has actual knobs to adjust the light level instead of pushing buttons. But, that project hasn't risen to the "OK, do it!" level. I mentioned that Developer's kit above to demonstrate how open they are about Insteon compared with, say, Vantage. The Developer's Kit probably isn't terribly useful for an end-user.

I haven't tried the HouseLink software. My impression is that it's intended to do roughly the sort of thing you're looking for, but I don't know if it will do exactly that. The Amazon reviews for HouseLink are pretty mixed--Some folks have found it very useful, and others have found it to be very rough around the edges and "techie-oriented."

You might try their customer support. I called them when I was setting up my system (about a year and a half ago), and they were very willing to help, and did in fact answer my questions. Hopefully they haven't changed over the last year and a half.

solar

The houselink software took a little getting used to - and the manual is not the best - but it did allow me to quickly program the network to set up scene's. It's also nice that when I find a little bug in a scene I set up, I can go to my desktop and quickly change it with the houselink s/w. It was also cheap (I think 60 dollars) and it is updated periodically. Insteon does have limits but for lighting control and scene definitions, it is hard to beat as long as the network is set up properly.

There is a seperate forum for Insteon - see the link below. I will try posting my question on that, and then go to customner support if needed. I remember seeing a post on the out of sync issue but the write up on the fix was not clear.

http://www.techmall.com

Thanks

i met with a home automation expert a couple days ago, and am very concerned about the budgeting of thes things. he introduced me to a crestron system, and quoted 3k just for one wireless control lcd panel. he told me how he does home 100k plus.

here is what we need:

a/c control (zones)
basic distributed audio in 3-5 places
security integration incl. sec. camera integration
basic lighting schemes in 1-2 places in the home.

What vendor would you suggest for these purposes? Also, elec. shades are cool for the windows, but are they ver costly? i would imagine so and chances of failure could be a nuisance.

You went right to the top. Crestron is considered the best professionally installed integration system along with AMX. It is critical that you choose a well qualified dealer for any pro system. The dealer can be more important than the system itself since they can mess up design, install and programming of good system hardware.

There are other pro systems that cost less but you always give up something. You need to find out what that something is and if it is more important than the money you can save. Your requirements can help match you to a system.

There are several automated shade companies. Lutron has the quietest motors and best integration with their HomeWorks lighting control system. Somfy and Mecho are some other frequently mentioned brands.

There are some DIY integration solutions but this becomes more of a hobby for techies.

Check the link and post your question again. There is a lot more of the info you want there.

Here is a link that might be useful: More help.

I'm looking at RF controlled motorized roller shades from Somfy. I plan to install these in four townhomes (all very close together). My goal is to allow programming of the shades so they open and close at predetermined times during the day/evening. Can anyone recommend a system that can allow me to control not only the lights and air conditioning system, but also the shades?

Ultimately, I would like the system to control lighting, a split-air a/c system (Fujitsu, Mitsubishi or LG), a simple whole house fan and of course the window shades. I plan to have a security system but will probably keep it autonomous from the whole house system (to keep it simple). Any suggestions or advice is much appreciated!