The more X-10 you use the more fun you will have with "the occasional glitch". The increase in problems can rise faster than the number of devices used because they are chatty and start to block each other from what I've read. Lightolier's Compose PLC attempts to overcome X-10 problems by installing filters for X-10 circuits. Leviton's better X-10 products with Intelesense are only marginally better.

Technology has moved on. Check out Insteon, UPB, Zwave, there are several. Leviton has a new radio frequency product coming soon based on their latest dimmers. However, these inexpensive lighting control products will never be as capable and as trouble free as more expensive better designed and built products. I have some UPB experience and the product quality can be poor. Simple things like the plastic snap on switches don't always mate well with the base unit, base units have had badly made buttons that don't reliably activate. The software can be a bit buggy. Tech support can be poor.

In big expensive homes I recommend using something more appropriate. There is another thread on lighting controls.

Dealers of the high end systems are kept in the loop about any product problems, workarounds, final solutions. Problems are fewer. Systems are more capable and supportable.

dim4fun

I have used Insteon programmable contollers with X10 wall switches and it worked reasonably well albeit with occasional glitch. I did a quick check on UPB and Zwave and I couldn't find 1000W rated 2-way and 3-way switches like there are for X10. Looked on Smarthome.com and they didn't carry any. Do you know if there are Zwave high wattage 2 & 3 way switches? If so - do you have any recommended web sites for where I can buy these products?

My wife says you are politely calling me cheap :) And I was so proud of my very first GW post! I keep telling her that I am looking at all options. X10 was a great solution for us in our other house which was wired like crap (lot's of back & forth walking to get to switches). After I put X10 in, she was a lot happier even with my neighbor turning on his computer causing one (only one) of our lights to turn off or on. But with a fresh start, would like to get it right the first time. We are moving out to the sticks with my closest neighbor over 1000' away so the glitches caused by neigbors might not be any issue.

I will keep looking. I always have the Lutron Grafic Eye solution which is really not too bad in price - but it has a lot of fucntionality I don't need just to turn outdoor lights on and off.

Thanks
Bob

I believe Insteon uses the term "multi-way companion" for 3ways. They are in the catalog at SmartHome.

X-10 backwards compatibility is so that you can switch over to Insteon a little at a time, not to buy and install more X-10. If you are talking to X-10 devices then you have not gained much if anything by using Inteon - in terms of reliability.

I don't know what your needs are but a good professional lighting control system can do all of the following things:
Vacation Mode - make your home look lived in to keep anyone checking on the house guessing. The best systems can record and playback the way you use the home.
Alarm mode - lighting is connected to the alarm for visible impact. Lights can come on to any level or flash as desired. Any keypad can be deactivated to prevent a burglar from turning off the lights.
Astronomical clock - The system knows when the sun sets and rises everyday and you can set how long before or after that time lights respond. This is great for main pathways and exterior lighting.
Clean up walls - use keypads with remotely mounted dimmers so that there is no more than a one or two gang plate in any switch location.
Monitor - use keypads at main areas to monitor and control what is on via status LEDs.
Integrate with other systems - like the TV remote control

Normally I wouldn't think of using a Graphic Eye for outdoor lighting unless there were several zones of lights in one area of the yard. They are more commonly used for larger rooms as you are doing.

Lutron HomeWorks is a whole house lighting control system that can talk to Graphic Eyes and incorporate them into whole house scenes.

dim4fun

Thank you very much for the info. Up until now, I thought Insteon was X10 - didn't realize that it had it's own protocol & X10 compatibility. I will check the SH site for more info on the multi-way switches.

But now I must talk to our lighting guy about the LHW system. The alarm function you mention is exactly what I want - was originally planning an X10 interface but now will look for something else. The vacation mode is also a nice feature.

I have some more thinking to do.

Bob

Lutron has the best website I've run across for exploring. If you dig around you can find examples of system layouts and good examples of how the systems can work for you.

Here is a link that might be useful: Residential lighting control

I got a lot of very useful info on their site for the Grafic Eye when I was laying out that part of my design.

I have decided to go with Insteon switches for my exterior lights. I figured out from your posts why I had an intermitant problem when I used Insteon in my last house. I used Insteon 6 buttom contollers (which are really nice) with X10 in wall switches - not a good idea. This time I will stay all Insteon. I will also make sure I get the RF transmitters so that I get the over line and over air dual network. That should really improve reliability.

I looked at the Lutron Home Works. Really nice but outside my budget.

Thanks for the help.

Bob

we've got most of a control 4 system installed now - it is amazing. According to our home tech co, control 4 is much more reliable than insteon which was my first choice before being introduced to control 4, which is IP based. this house is a second home and I can log into that house from any pc and check on all the lighting and motion senors, turn on and off lights, dim them, etc.

Here is a link that might be useful: Control 4

Trubee,

I'm assuming that the Control 4 system was more expensive than Insteon--could you give me a ballpark figure of approx. how much more it is to go the Control 4 route?

Thanks!

it wasn't much more than Insteon -- they are hungrier as they are newer. As it has been months since I changed over to Control 4 (and is in the recesses of my brain with all 40,000 other pieces that go into new home construction!), so we're sure to be accurate I see they have a "find a dealer" section on their website. I originally found our dealer through Insteon's site and they are the ones who said they were switching over to C4 because of stability.
It IS a beautiful system - just checked on our house from 400 miles away!

sniff

Control4 is not aimed at the DIY market and is not primarily a lighting control system. It is a trained/certified dealer sold and installed home automation system that also does basic lighting. Control4 is an attempt to bring the cost of home automation/integration down in price so that more can afford the basic features. Crestron is the recognized leader in the home automation/integration field. Lutron is the recognized leader in lighting control. Control4 uses a mesh network to communicate and is supposed to be more reliable than Insteon, UPB and X-10.

dim4fun

I checked out Control 4 and the products looked interesting, but with more emphasis on A/V. I could not find too many light control 4 light products - but there were a few. However, once I tried to find the products to see where I could purchase them , I ran into the dealer issue which is not what I want at all.

I am sticking with Insteon for now but I am also running a lot of conduit in the house so I can upgrade later without tearing out walls.

I still don't have a good solution for tying my security system (also a DIY project) with the Insteaon outdoor light controls - but my security guy tells me that Ademco, who makes the controller he is recommending, is working on such an interface. Even if that turns out to be a bust - I can always upgrade the security controller after I move in. Initially I only need to have monitored security and fire alarm to meet insurance requirements. The integrated light contol is just something I would like to have, but do not need right away.

The reason I like Insteon is that is functions better than X-10 and it works first as a basic switch without any automation required. I like that feature because I have many freinds who have fully automated houses - and they can't get the house to work right. And the person who put the system in is not around to fix it - that is a nightmare I want to avoid. The automation that Insteon provides is basic - but functional - and their in-wall control button switches are really nice (much better than bulky X-10 boxes).

Thanks again for the help
Bob

To connect an alarm system via dry contact closure you would use an input module. The alarm closes a relay during alarm activation and the input module senses this and activates a lighting scene. I'm surprised Insteon doesn't have one. UPB calls theirs an input/output low voltage module and you can see it at Smarthome.com. FWIW I hear better things about UPB when compared to Insteon.

dim

Thanks - I will check out UPB.

Make sure the alarm system you pick out can do a dry contact closure. For some this a standard feature, others can add it, some may not do it at all.

Can someone describe the components I'd need to turn on / off 3 lamps in my family room. They have those twisty flourcent bulbs in them if that matters. I saw an x10 switch that controls 3 lamps and dims. I fear the dimming part will be a problem. Here is the link:

http://www.x10.com/automation/ss13a_s.html

Will this somehow work for me? Does these things make noise, cause interference etc etc.

The switch you selected requires a radio frequency tranceiver to talk to wired X-10. Use appliance modules at the lamps. They don't dim and won't listen to dimming commands but will do on/off. You can also use a tabletop control that just plugs in instead of the wall switch.

X-10 can be mischievous. Electrical noises from anyone that shares your power company transformer cause problems. You can learn a lot about the potential problems by looking into all of the filtering solutions and better products that have been designed to fix or replace X-10.

Just last month I had to replace a brand new X-10 system a landscaper installed because it did whatever it wanted rather than what the owner wanted. It would have possibly cost more to track down the noise source(s) and filter them than replacing the system and there is no guarantee that something else later would not upset the system again. X-10 is for hobbyists who enjoy tinkering. For everyone else that just wants their lights to work, use something else.

So...what is the something. I want a wall switch to turn on/off the 3 lamps w/flourecent twisty bulbs in them. Reccomendations?

Guess I'll weigh in here. Dim and I have had our disagreements about X10 before, though basically we are in agreement about control systems in general.

Here's the deal, I've put in X10 controls in maybe 30 houses and quite a few businesses since they first came out. I do not recommend them for the entire house, but I have had very good luck with them in limited retrofit situations, such as being able to turn the lights on in the garage before going out there, etc.

I am an electrician and am very particular about the way I make my wire splices. Good splicing will eliminate a lot of so-called interference problems. However, I also seem to work almost entirely in rural or industrial locations, mostly because of where I am based, so there's fewer houses around that might introduce interference problems.

I just called three people for whom I've installed X10, and none have had the problems mentioned above -- only the pesky delay in action, which many people really dislike. So, I guess I am mystified as to why so many others say they have had bad luck with X10 and not me.

Finally, X10 is the value leader hands down. For cost compared to function, nothing beats it. Yes, it's probably best for the "hobbyist who enjoys tinkering," but it is also very good for a relatively handy person who wants relatively simple controls to do basic functions on a limited number of lights, and not pay any more than they have to.

As I've said to Dim before, I drive a pickup, not a Mercedes, not because I can't afford a fancy car, but because the pickup does what I need it to do, and I don't have to pay extra for features I don't need (really hard to haul plywood sheets in the Mercedes too!). I feel pretty much the same way about X10 compared to what else is on the market.

I emailed and x10 vendor on ebat who said for my desired set up (a switch that will turn on/off 3 lamps, each with a twisty compact flourecent bulb) it would be best to tget these two parts; essentially a rocket socket and wall switch that controls 3 devices and dims a 4th (ss13A)

Does this sound right? You are not suppose to dim flourcents. Anyone want to take a stab at what parts would work best for me...part #s...

Do the appliance modules which do not respond to the "dim" command ok for using with CFL's such as in a table lamp?

Plus, what about the wall sockets that say they are for appliances/lamps. I have a few of them but am hesitant to use them. Do they respond to the dim command or not because I would like to use them for plugging in some floor lamps that may have CFL's ?

First off, you definitely CAN get dim-able compact fluorescent bulbs, to fit pretty much any fixture. They cost more, but they work just fine. I typed "dimmable fluorescent" into the search engine at 1000bulbs.com, and came up with more than 1000 bulbs, including several rated at 2700 degrees kelvin, which is quite warm.

If you have a bulb that cannot be dimmed, it is likely of the old magnetic ballast style, which are no longer for sale in California, and are being phased out elsewhere. They work OK, but the electronic ballasts are much better.

Second, no, the dimmer features do not work for the X10 wall sockets, only the devices in the actual socket are dimmable.

Here is a link to an article that sums up both the good and the bad of X-10. X-10 is by far the most popular control system due to cost and simplicity. I've had both positive and negative experiences with it over a couple of decades. For me and other pros I've talked to, the costs in money and reputation of finding and fixing a problem when it fails wipes out the advantage of X-10's initial lower cost now that products like Insteon, UPB, Zwave, etc. are available with higher reliabilty and security.

A couple of things I didn't see mentioned in the article are that X-10 has no security. Anyone can plug in a device anywhere on your shared power company transformer and take control or interfere with your system. Neighbors that both happen to choose the same house and device code can fight with each other over a lamp being on or off. You hope it is only a lamp and not the coffee pot. Noise sources can come from anywhere on that shared transformer so stopping a noise problem from a neighbor can be extremely frustrating to track down and very expensive to fix unless they allow you to plug in a filter on their appliance.

This will be an interesting year in low end, low cost home lighting control. Leviton is introducing their Z-Wave based control system as are others. PLC products will still have an advantage for long distance needs like controlling a light in the barn.

Here is a link that might be useful: X-10 issues and solutions