the way I think about it, if you have an old house those recommendations just don't apply. Sure we could all strive for that but realistically some of us just don't have the space. Many of us have functioned quite nicely in kitchens that were much much much smaller than what's recommended. (same goes for baths and bedrooms and closets. Some of us *gasp* simply make due with a 5foot straight closet!)

What I would do is draw out your plan and see what you can fit in there. Don't worry about the rules right now. See if you can fit everything AND still have storage. If you're going for a small kitchen then you may have to pare down your cooking appliances too..I'm not sure. Then, if you're reasonably sure it all even fits, then start playing with layout to get the pieces to work in a manner which functions properly.

Hope that helps..

Oh, glory be! Buffettgirl, when I started grad school (i.e., not flush), my father wouldn't let me rent an apt. that had only 8' of closet just for me!!! :D

But, Deb, yes, you can have a small kitchen. You're starting with narrower appliances, which helps. Smaller, narrower (galley) kitchens are most efficient anyway (though when I tried to make my kitchen smaller in a large space the GWers let me know I was crazy :)

Here's what I'd do:
1. Get your graph paper, or electronic version thereof, and do a scale drawing of your walls.

2. Make a list of requirements that you must have (e.g., vent where ducting is, or on exterior wall), and a list of what you really want (e.g., sink under window).

3. Make a detailed list of how much kitchen storage you use now, and of what kind. Make a list of other places you can store less used kitchen things (e.g., the twice a year roaster, bulk buy paper towels).

4. Post them for people here to get a look at. You've come to the right place for help :)

lol..you'd be horrified if you saw my closets. we do what we have to do . So my shirts are a bit wrinkled...it saves me a lot of money on shopping because I have no where to put it.. rofl... with only 1100sq feet of space in the whole house...storage is very very tight.

Deb,

Here's a basic basic galley for you which doesn't have much storage but if you're not a collector it could work. I didn't draw uppers for simplicity. Assume them. I also didn't measure out the spacing because I don't know where the walls and windows are (and didn't want to work that hard on a guess. :) ) This is a 9' wide by 8' long space.

P.S., A better layout would be with a smaller sink, to have the fridge and sink on the same side and the cooktop and ovens on the other.

Thanks for the start. We'll give it a go and post when we've got something on paper. Thanks.

Well, here's a kitchen which is about 9'4" by 9'7, but the 9'7" side only has 75" of useable space, so really it was like working with 9'4x6. My original design actually was working with in 8x9'7" (or 8x6 if you like) and, although it was tight, I came up with some reasonable possibilities. We were willing to compromise on an 18" dishwasher and a freestranding range - no separate oven. We do have an OTR microwave, however.

Here was my first idea (with 8' along the window wall - sorry it's not labelled, but these are existing pix that I'm simply linking)

Then I figured out a way of losing that door on the rh side next to the stairs so I could cheat a little more space into the kitchen:

And what I eventually wound up with was something along these lines:

And here's the not-really-finished-but-gives-you-an-idea-of-how-it's-coming reality:

For us, the backdoor corner - and lack of ability to move the door and thus use the corner - was a real bummer for kitchen design. With that corner as available space we could easily have kept it to 8x9'7" and had a really nicely laid-out u-shaped cook's kitchen.

We didn't have the budget for snazzy appliances because we had loads of structural work to do (the kitchen remodel was the knock-on effect of work elsewhere in the house - the kitchen had to be moved to enable access to the newly-finished attic!) so we AGONISED over ways to make it cook friendly. I'm delighted to say we seem to have got it right, because it's a dream to cook in and we couldn't be happier!

Good luck with your plan and remember that the "shoulds" regarding kitchen ergonomics are a pretty recent addition to domestic life. People managed to turn out some pretty wonderful meals and lived to tell the tale despite much less efficient kitchens than we have today!

Thanks divamum. Pictures really help for me; I can't seem to "read" plans well. Everything on paper looks like 1/2 acre.

You're right about the "shoulds" in today's kitchens. My husband keeps saying, if we had to move into housing for the elderly the kitchen would be "so" big and we'd make due. I just haven't figured out my critical mass for this house: what is big enough we can make due and laugh about bum room and what is too small and crazy-making. (I still remember the news report about a man who stabbed his wife 47 times because he was sick and tired of having to move vegetables out of the fridge to get at his milk several times a day. I think he stabbed her for each year of marriage.)

I'm finding that a U kitchen will give us more elbow room counter-top, but less usable storage in undercabinets. I'm wondering how good lazy susan's are. Do they work for pots and pans? I always disliked them, but it's been many decades since I've dealt with one.

oh Divamum...I didn't realize (or remember) that those were your plans! I think you must have posted them around nov when I first came here. Sooo cool to connect it to you.

Deb, I don't think you've described the size and shape of your existing space. You'll save a lot of money if you can avoid moving walls or expanding into the yard, and there's a better than even chance that people here could help you do that.

One thing I found very helpful was to split the room into zones designed for specific activities, so that each cook has everything they're likely to need close at hand and doesn't need to cross the room to get something every 30 seconds. Less walking back and forth means less crossing of paths, less getting in each other's way, etc.

Sorry. You're right, I didn't make it clear. There is no existing space. Hubby and I are to build a tiny cottage. The existing plans are for a 9 wide x 7 long kitchen (windows and doorway on opposite 9' walls). The rub is, the current kitchen does not have wall ovens.

The house was designed to house one person who ate at his sister's mostly. We are trying to adopt the plans for us. Problem is rooflines. Whatever I push out the kitchen, the whole house gets pushed out. Obviously I need to keep it to a minimum.

There are plenty of people on here better able to do this than me, but I thought I'd have a go.

There isn't alot of space, but it is possible. It would be better if you didn't have a door, just a doorway.

I do think 9'x7' sounds tight for two cooks. Mine is a galley, about 9.5' x 8.5' with a standard 30" range (no wall ovens) and an 18" dishwasher. We've got about twelve linear feet of countertop including a smallish (24") bowl-and-a-half sink, so really only 10 linear feet of countertop. This is broken up such that, on one side of the room, there's a little over two feet left of the sink, a little less than two feet between sink and range, and a foot to the right of the range. On the other side of the room is a doorway, a 33" fridge and about five feet of 28" deep countertop. There's also a built-in pantry in a hallway just around a corner, outside the kitchen proper. We do alright in terms of storage and work well enough in this space, but I wouldn't want it any smaller. To me, the NKBA recommendations don't sound too far off.

Well, here's what I came up with without really knowing where your windows and doors are ... but maybe it will spark some ideas. Also, I couldn't figure out how to get those wall ovens in there without sacrificing too much counter space, so I've drawn it with a freestanding range BUT perhaps you'd consider an advantium over it, thus gaining your second oven and a microwave into that otherwise wasted over the range? Just a thought as a possible compromise that would enable you to "have it all"!

I've assumed an 8' ceiling, but if yours will be higher you'll gain extra storage. And in answer to your question I absolutely LOVE LOVE LOVE my super suan corner cabinet (it's a lazy susan with no pole in the middle, so it doesn't block storage or catch on things). I have all my pots and pans in the top, and my small appliances on the bottom carousel and it is WONDERFUL - everything available easily and securely stored. I can finally put my pans AWAY :)

Anyway, further notes on the drawing. The 3d was just a bit of fun - have NO idea of your taste, so just drew it as a kind of current-style generic everything.

Good luck - small spaces are challenging but, as I've learned, the results can be AMAZINGLY efficient. I go into my kitchen every day and just marvel at how easy everything is now!

Reading your initital message over again I see you've already picked your specific appliances including an induction cooktop (envy, envy, envy :) which means my idea won't work, but maybe it will spawn some ideas anyway. Good luck!

fondantfancy: I would never have thought of that arrangement. This is great. I'll show Hubby.

And jon1270, I agree that the NK&BA are probably giving good advice -- I keep thinking of that couple married 47 years and what kitchen stress led to there! Your galley sounds like it meets the recommendations I'd read before: minimum is 2' either side of range and sink with at least one 4' run to spread out while prepping. I'm feeling virtuous because I've decreased the size from 12' to 10'. Don't know if the budget will buy it though.

I'd planned a pantry (cupboard, really) in the hallway across from the kitchen but that got turned into an office alcove. Sigh

Is there any way you can open up the area to another room? Kitchens feel a lot bigger if you don't have walls closing you in - you might also be able to steal a little more space from your dining or living area.

Our kitchen in our previous house was 9x10 with chopped up counterspace. Longest counter was only 2ft wide. We opened up the room to the dining room (also vaulted the ceiling to match the dining room) and added a peninsula which made a huge difference.

Can you post the plan that you are trying to update?

Also search for real European kitchens. they tend to be be much smaller, but still functional.

Here is a link that might be useful: some british kitchen examples

How will you get to the corner in fondantfancy's layout? W/an induction cooktop + DW on either side, you won't have the room for a lazy susan and you need, I think, a full height door in the side cabinet (where your cooktop is) for a blind/magic corner cabinet. Your kitchen is much too small to waste that valuable space.

BTW...there's also a "Small Kitchens" category in the Finished Kitchens Blog

Here is a link that might be useful: Finished Kitchens Blog/Small Kitchens

divamum: I love the outdoor view from my new kitchen! With grounds like those who cares how tight the floorspace is! Thanks for the diagram. There is plenty to show Hubby tonight. What I love most is that people came up with arrangements I'd never have thought of. I'm very much an in-the-box type. But it is very good to know that lazy susan's are much improved and will make me feel a whole lot better about a U-shape kitchen.

daki: We really can't because of the layout. I'll try to figure out how to get a picture on the computer. I don't have a scanner, but maybe I can find someone who does have one. I know. This is very frustrating. I really appreciate the help in spite of the lack of visuals.

Do you have a digital camera? If so, take a picture and post the picture...

doggone, what's on the other side of the kitchen door, and can you creep any space onto the short wall out of that area? I just had a thought about a possible peninsula arrangement if there's any room at all there that could be "borrowed" into the kitchen.

One thing I think you need to consider (and I had to go through this process, too, thus why I'm throwing it out to you too): which is your BIGGEST priority, counter/workspace, storage, or appliances? In my case, the desire for more counter and better storage (plus a limited budget) meant I was willing to compromise on appliances (thus I went with an 18" dw and a freestanding range).

Regardless of whether you go cooktop/oven or not, I do think you should consider using the space over the range somehow - it's wasted otherwise and in small spaces every inch counts. In my quickie drawing above the only space wasted was that 12 of base next to the DW, but it opened up the possibility of a pantry thus why I thought there was a tradeoff and gave it a whirl :)

Since you can't post a picture yet, can you give us any other info to go on to try and wrestle with this?

divamum: I will need to cogitate on priorities. Currently I lack for nothing so I'm not burning to get anything for which I've been deprived. And while I would be very happy with a 28" cooktop, or even a 24" (I cooked on one for years.), I don't think it's an option in the U.S. I've been waiting to see what Miele produces.

This is a diagram I've done -- nothing to scale but you get the general idea. The cab in the living room is to house place settings for the dining table

Here is a link that might be useful: {{gwi:1625702}}

Okay! That's very useful, doggone.

Some more questions:

- if you can't make an entire wall bigger, can you do a bumpout for the kitchen (or maybe even kitchen/bath)? Even 12-24" will make a HUGE difference in the function of your kitchen.

- where is the planned dining area?

- are you willing to cheat any space out of the bathroom? (For me, I'd ALWAYS give up br space for kitchen, but that's me - many people really like a more elegant bathroom space than we have!)

- is the fireplace location absolutely set (and what does it face - as drawn, it looks like the long sidd - presumably the hearth front - is away from the LR)

I googled "24" cooktop" just to see what came up and this one was on the list (note the manufacturer's name!!)

Here is a link that might be useful: 24

Here's another idea, with a 2' bumpout added to the external kitchen wall (measurements indicated). If that's possible, it makes for a nice space! I did it as a creamy Shaker+soapstoane kitchen this time, just for fun (I have a kid home sick and I'm just sooo not in the mood to do the things I REALLY have to, so I'm, uh... yeah. On GW. Drawing plans for other people's kitchens. Hey, it's THERAPEUTIC, right?!??!?!? :) :) :)

Anyway:

THere would be some problems to solve with this idea, not least of all the hood on an internal wall (unless it could vent to that fireplace? Or go straight up?) and the fact that there's no pantry, but that's offset by a good bit of storage with extra tall wall cabinets and that big base cabinet next to the fridge. I also made that base next to the fridge 30" deep; you could probably make the uppers deeper too which would gain added storage. I do like that it gives you one nice open stretch of counter space and keeps the cleanup stuff out of the way of everything else. Not sure I like the ovens and fridge right opposite each other, but a wide doorway would minimise the problems that could cause.

Geez. I sound like I know what I'm talking about and really, all I know is what I've learned since last October!! Give a girl some software and a patient contractor and she turns into a menace.... ;)

big base CABINETS next to the fridge (i originally drew it as one cabinet). Whoops!

I like Divamum's bump out, and agree that the Diva de Provence DDP-3 24" might do you very well. It's one of the alternatives I've been thinking of for my own kitchen :) Diva are Fagor I believe. They've been making induction forever and very good products from what I've been able to learn. On the DDP-3 there is one large (bigger than 10") hob and two smaller ones.

I've tried a bunch of different ways to get all your stated appliances in a 7' x 9' space, with the door where it would have to go, and it just doesn't work. A U doesn't work at all, but even for a galley, the {{gwi:1625705}} isn't great. If you can do the bump out, which could even add interest to the lines of your house, and wouldn't add too much extra roofing, you can have a U and really make a lot more of your kitchen than otherwise.

The bump out makes a huge difference!

As for the blind corner in my plan - I was thinking of a lazy susan accessed from the cupboard under the cooktop - not ideal I know but hey!

I am in Europe - so 24" cooktops are the norm for me - especially for induction tops.

Looking at this again, one could also make a case for taking out the big window, leaving the two at the sides of the bumpout, and putting the cooktop back there with a pretty hood. Would be a lovely "view" from the hall, and would make the two galley sides flow nicely. Actually, if you did that you could also put the sink/dw on the bathroom wall which would probably simplify plumbing.

Of course, all just brainstorming in abstract, but hopefully it gives you some fresh ideas to kick around!

Wow, have you guys been busy! while I was out buying a camera!

Divamum: The Diva induction is a wonderful suggestion. I absolutely love small and efficient: houses, appliances, cars, gardens. I so wish we had the wealth of options the Europeans have as regards small but beautiful appliances. (Didn't Gaggenau discontinue it's 27" oven?)

As for the bump-out it is a great idea; I don't know if it is possible. I had the house "designed" until we met with the fellow who draws up the plans and he informed me I had to start at ground zero because of the connectedness of the house: the internal rooms do not fall along roof breaks so it is an all-or-nothing deal. It's certainly a question. With New England snow loads we don't do flat roofs, but maybe there is a baby roof he can do.

I am hoping Hubby (who can pack for a month in a suitcase I'd use for overnight) will look at everyone's plans and either fall in love with one and show me how it can work for us, or will resign himself to giving me a 10 x 10 kitchen: 6" from the bathroom, 6" from the fireplace to increase my 9' length to 10', and move out the whole bloody house 3'. And, it will buy me a linen closet in the bathroom!

Before anyone works on this any more, I'll see what the other half has to say. But your help has been tremendous. The 3D drawings make the room real for me. Thank you.

The whole time I was out this afternoon I was considering your question about my priorities, divamum. I think it will help a great deal going into tonight's discussion because I'll be prepared to compromise when my husband asks me the very same question -- and I know he will.

fondantfancy: Do you mind telling me the size of your fridge and how often you shop and for how many? The one area I'm nervous about down-sizing is the fridge because we can shop only once a week.

Thanks all for great ideas.

I know around here (mid atlantic) with a small bump out like that depending on the rest of the house - structurally and visually - sometimes the roof is a sloped shed roof going into the house below the main roofline rather than an extension of the roof over the rest of the house. Or sometimes people have done a small bump with a separate roof in the same orientation and peak angle as the main roof, just not quite as high that. Obviously, it will all depend on what can be done "in reality" but if you can make that work within budget it would certainly ease the space pinch. Heck, if it turns out to be "no big deal" then you can extend it to include a portion of the bathroom, too and gain 2 extra feet there! :)

Also (and I'm serious here) consider this: the high end appliances you're considering all carry a price premium in their more diminutive forms: counter depth fridges, the smaller induction hob etc etc are not cheap items. Perhaps it's worth number-crunching the difference in costs between larger house+less costly standard size appliances and footprint as is+expensive internal solutions... Just one more thought to add in.

Do keep us posted - I've enjoyed playing around with your design and, since I've more or less finished my own kitchen, it was nice to have something to puzzle out again!

An average European fridge freezer would have something like 8-10 cu ft of fridge space and 4-6 cu ft of freezer space. That would be what an average family of four would use. Most people here shop once a week, and whilst the fridge is full to bursting after the shop it is manageable.

From reading the forums I think one of the big differences is the ammount of space the average american household uses for the beverages in the fridge. Other than milk and orange juice we don't have alot of drinks in our fridge. We maybe have one or two bottles of wine but that is all.

Best fridge-freezer I ever had was one similar to the current model Hotpoint linked below. Hotpoint, I believe, is a branch of GE.

I LOVED that thing. In particular, the freezer drawers were great - a very efficient way to store things in an organised manner with every easily accessible.

We were a family of two when we had ours, and it was ample room - even when cooking dinner parties. One idea for you, doggone, if you do downsize the fridge significantly: what about a much smaller kitchen fridge and then a small bar/drinks fridge in your dining or living area (or even basement if you'll have one)? That could always be used for overflow if it ever became necessary.

Also, certainly in Britain there were things that you didn't NEED to refrigerate, because the climate was never really warm enough to cause a problem. Where I am now, I have to keep all fruit and veg in the fridge for 8 months of the year to prevent them going bad very quickly; while in England, I could happily leave a lot of them in bowls or baskets without any worries. And when I really ran out of space I could just stick things on a windowsill and know they'd stay cool and fresh! lol

As a final note, I've always wondered why US fridge-freezers go for the larger footprint rather than utilising height the way this and many other European models do?

Here is a link that might be useful: Hotpoint fridge/freezer

Divamum, I think part of the footprint issue is the American penchant for large platters :) I don't think any of my European friends ever sit more than 10 people to dinner. I mean, I've seen it in Mediterranean countries in the movies, but always in a farmhouse. None of the city dwellers I know do so, however.

Even in small U.S. kitchens, you often see food prep for 30 or more. Perhaps it's the casual thing? My European friends wouldn't care for balancing paper plates on their knees and sitting on the floor either, but that doesn't stop the apartment dwellers I know from having crowds in :) They do borrow extra fridge space from the neighbors too :)

Deb, good luck with the discussions about the kitchen size!

NKBA? The people paid to put in these things? Consider the source. The National Beet Board reports a study that everyone should eat one every day.
Nice rule of thumb, maybe, but don't lose sleep over it.

I agree, your diagram helps a lot.

My existing kitchen is not much bigger than your future kitchen, and it's really not that bad. I have more space in my cabinets than I can use. Your kitchen may not be spacious, but it has room for everything you need, and room for 2 people to do it in. A restaurant I used to go to a lot had a chef, 2 sous and a dishwasher in half that space. And some REALLY fiery and dangerous equipment.

I don't think you need to add structurally to your plans: I think you can add function to the space you have, and "borrow" space from existing areas. People who add on and shift without considering the overall plan end up with weird houses that they don't like and they can't figure out why. Move furniture, not walls.

For example: Put up a couple of short shelves or hang a stack of bins on the wall to the basement stairs for can/pot and/or potato&onion storage. NOT enough so you have to lean out, just open the door.

They make cutting boards that slide out from under the counter, either freestanding or supported by a drawer, that add extra "counter" space that goes away when you're done. Or cutting boards that go over the sink.

Depending on how the window is, you may have room for a shelf for cook books and decorative/seldom used items above the window. Are you familiar with Carl Larsson's paintings? He's a Swedish painter who painted his house and family a lot. You can notice all kinds of low-tech storage nooks and ideas if you scan his work. The style, if you like it, is called Gustavian.

If you have a door between the kitchen and the living/dining room, you can put a cabinet right around the corner, just a step outside the kitchen, with dishes (it looks like that's where you're eating anyway, right?) You could probably tuck a few pots or kitchen extras on the bottom of the cabinet if you absolutely had to. They'd still be nearer than some people with huge "efficient" kitchens. But I honestly don't think you'll need to. This could be in addition to or instead of the one you'd planned for your good china.

It sounds like you're only feeding two people most of the time, and you sound disciplined and like you don't have a million appliances. It also sounds like you're making use of the basement for some things. Is there something SPECIFIC you're worried about making room for? I know vegetable prep takes a lot of chopping and counter space, and room for a compost bin or vermicomposter of some kind. And you shop once a week, so you need a bit of actual food storage space. Two ovens: you presumably bake or roast a lot: are you concerned about a place for proofing dough, or cutting out large batches of biscuits? These may spawn ideas here.

Part of the problem may be that you're, understandably, thinking about what you have now and what you're giving up. That's always frustrating. Once the side-by-side comparison is gone, and you only have what you have, it'll be easier.

P111og, you're not far off:

I've been told one of the in-house tests for fridge designs, in addition to the 2-liter soda bottles in the door, is a large pizza box has to fit flat on a shelf!

Growlery: My own kitchen is small so I absolutely agree that vast expanses of open space aren't necessarily the only way to get efficiency, but... I couldn't figure out how to fit the op's original "wishlist" into that space! Any ideas from your perspective? The op's space is definitely challenging when you include the two ovens, large sink, full size dw and separate hob.

That said, Doggone, when I get a minute I'm going to play around with a 7x10 (or 8x10) space without the bump with the smaller appliances and see what I can come up with - I called my own kitchen designing activities a game of "Kitchen Rubick's Cube" and I've kind of missed that intellectual challenge so I'll have a crack at it again just for fun :) (yes, I'm weird. Or maybe just officially TKO :)

Keep us posted on how your planning discussions are going, and I hope that it's a positive experience as you streamline your thinking rather than an acrimonious one!

Divamum, YOU'VE CREATED A MONSTER. My husband absolutely fell in love with the bump out. There is no discussion, it will be done. He doesn't care about roof lines, we'll just make it work.

That bump out solved a lot of problems. Our current house has windows everywhere and because we are so used to and love a light-filled house, we hated the idea of upper cabinets in a tiny kitchen. A bump out will allow us to put in upper cabinets and not lose a speck of light; not only that, it puts two additional windows in the kitchen. Once again Hubby, who spends a lot of time at the kitchen sink, will be able to look out windows at our gardens. He is ecstatic. Divamum, you made this house for us. Thank you.

Growlery, you're right about the giving up issue. I freak at the loss of storage space. But your idea about the living room cabinet is a very good one. I'd pictured it as an old fashioned china cupboard. If I picture it as a free-standing cabinet like on Plain English, then it will suit not only the occasional serving dishes and extra dishware, but pots/pans and jars of rices and beans. I like it. A hodgepodge cottage, but neat, the way we like it.

I'm so glad I asked you guys for help. Thank you all for taking the time to get us out-of-the-box.

Deb (& Divamum), congrats on finding a design solution that works!

Growlery, That's a hoot! It makes sense. I know guys who put the pizza box in the fridge :) But I'm accustomed to using a ziplock or container to keep it :) On the other hand, I have plenty of experience with 20" platters and dinner for 50! Maybe they figure if the pizza box fits, so will everything else? :) Thanks for the clue.

LOL, pllog -- I put the pizza box in the fridge. MY DH and I met/married in college (eons ago) and even with 2 babies now, we still have remnants of our college days in our habits! Thankfully, the cinder block shelves and milk crate storage has been replaced, but the pizza box in the fridge lives on. :-)

Whee! Yay - so glad that helped. I'm sure it can be significantly refined from that down-and-dirty drawing I did yesterday, but I'm so happy that it's solved some problems for you! I tell you, GW is the BEST - our kitchen owes an awful lot to many, many of the wonderful folks on this forum and I'm thrilled that I could "pay it forward" a little :)

Would a Welsh dresser of some kind do the job in the living room? Cottage, multiple kinds of storage and downright lovely :) This one is the real deal (and no doubt costly in the US!) but I've seen some quite nice modern interpretations of the style much more affordably.

http://www.petworthantiquecentre.co.uk/productimages/26234Picture%20002c.jpg

Here is a link that might be useful: {{gwi:1625706}}

Oh yeah. There's NOTHING sexier than a man at the kitchen sink.
Except maybe one mopping ...

The bumpout sounds like it gets you a lot -- particularly natural light. You even sound more relaxed just talking about it! I'm glad you've both made a decision you like.