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feedback on (title 24 constrained) kitchen lighting plan?

9 years ago

Cross post on kitchens forum....

I would really appreciate any feedback on the attached lighting plan. We need to honor title 24 rules since we are in California, hence the LED everything.

Useful things to know:
- Additional lighting from under counter LED strips
- Ceiling is 8' 6"
- White cabinets
- leathered virginia mist granite (charcoal colored) counters
- walnut island top
- oak hardwood floor
- skylights are ~30x46
- The "35 lumens per square foot rule" indicates about 10,500 lumens for this room.

Thanks in advance!

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Comments (8)

David
9 years ago
Are there 2 different sizes being used? Why not just use one size?

The cans used must utilize the GU24 connector, not the E26, have to be rated for direct insulation contact and airtite.

The number of cans can be reduced if you factor in lighting contribution from UCL.
Julie Drew
Original Author
9 years ago
Thanks for the response!

We could do all the same size cans - in that case I would prefer the 4". Does that seem OK?

I wasn't sure how many lumens to count from the UCL, nor from the pendants - any ballpark estimate on that? The pendants would be from rejuvenation, made with a GU24 socket. (We haven't decided on the UCL yet so I'd welcome suggestions.)

If we were to remove some cans, which would you remove?
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Thanks to both of you. Unfortunately, we can't buy ourselves maneouvering room with overhead cabinet lighting, as our uppers (of which there are very few b/c of the configuration of the room) go to the ceiling. RemodelerMatt, I thought that I couldn't comply in the kitchen with standard fixtures on a dimmer, even with CF bulbs? Am I wrong about that? In a great room, the non-kitchen portion if separately switched would comply. Ours isn't a great room, though it is a fairly sizable, eat-in kitchen. From my admittedly still limited Title 24 knowledge, I think I could argue that the breakfast nook shouldn't fall into the kitchen restrictions as long as it's separately switched, but that doesn't really help me, as using non-CF recessed in that part of the room might look weird in terms of light quality with CF recessed in the rest of the room, right? If my pendents would count as CF for compliance if I used CF bulbs and a dimmer, I'd be thrilled, so if my interpretaion is wrong, please tell me! (I'd really love my recessed lights to be dimmable. . . that's the frustration here. . .I'm perfectly willing to use CF bulbs nearly everywhere, and the slight upcharge for dimmable CF bulbs doesn't faze me. But this isn't permitted, or at least so I've been told?!?) I went to a big lighting store here in LA yesterday to at least try to see some of the recessed CF lights. And they had zero on display. Probably 15-20 recessed lights were on display, but none were CF. The salesperson looked at me like I was nuts when I said that I had no choice but to install CF recessed in my kitchen. . .Title 24? Ever heard of it? Sigh. . .
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You've obviously put a lot of thought into this, zinnah, and I'm impressed. I like your idea of a suspended panel for lighting. I got my start in residential lighting (most of my work is in industrial) by crafting all sorts of lighting boxes and other structures to help remodelers in San Francisco adapt new lighting technology to old houses, which later turned out to be helpful in T24 compliance in many instances. I also hate penetrating the ceiling if I don't have to, so your idea is doubly attractive to me. I'd like to see a picture of it when you can.
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Rejuvenation Hardware is often recommended.. they are very Title 24 aware and can make any of their fixtures with GU24 lampholders for T24 compliance. Unfortunately, the 85W screw-in CFLs don't seem to be readily available in GU24 yet. If you can find those, they're perfect for your needs - 85W of CFL is about 400W of incandescent. Keep in mind that the 'watts equivalent' published by CFL manufacturers tends to be a bit 'optimistic' when you look at actual lumens. Do you have the option of adding a couple more fixtures, or possibly using multi-bulb pendants? (Or you could use the rather-popular 'change the fixtures after the inspector leaves' method..) Here is a link that might be useful: Rejuvenation Hardware
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buehl - oops, I can see why you'd ask. Sorry. Yes, it WILL matter what you have to say! I think my frustration was showing; I keep thinking I'm done with the plan, and then something else comes up and a change needs to happen. But I really would love feedback now, before I actually do go apply for a permit. Thanks for the pointer to the Lighting Forum, it's great to know there's another place to ask specifically about lighting.
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Julie Drew
Original Author
9 years ago
I'd should clarify one thing.

Our thought with this plan was that the red lights and green lights would be used in different modes:
The common arrangements would be
a) work - red lights, island pendants, under counter light
b) dining/play - green, pendants, and maybe ucl for atmosphere

Does that make sense?
David
9 years ago
I would eliminate the green colored cans.

Having 2 sets of down lights will add to the cost and the difference between the red and green sets would probably be minimal.

An electrician will gladly install both sets @ ~ $100 per can.

The final position of the cans depends on the location and direction of the ceiling joists as well as other obstructions.

As for the UCL, the light output depends on the type put in.

The uniLume is probably the most elegant (and expensive) - extremely low profile, high output, no beads of light

Then there are the maxLite and eW Profile for hardwired 120v AC UCL.

There are also low voltage solutions which you could put together from environmentallights.com, noralighting.com and superbrightleds.com

The DIY LED UCL thread and continuation have more details on UCL. There's also the LED lighting thread which also links in the DIY LED UCL thread

Here is a link that might be useful: Recessed lighting discussion
Julie Drew
Original Author
9 years ago
Thank you so much, davidtay, for this info, and for all of your previous extremely helpful GW posts over the years (which constitute the entirety of my understanding of lighting). Really appreciate you taking the time to weigh in!

This post was edited by thedinos on Fri, Nov 21, 14 at 14:06
mtvhike
9 years ago
Pardon my ignorance, but what are the constraints from title 24?
David
9 years ago
Some restrictions off the top of my mind
1. E26 base devices will not be considered energy efficient devices.
2. New recessed lighting cannot utilize the E26 base.
3. The cans have to be rated airtight and installation inspected to ensure that the requisite insulation, ... exist.
4. Incandescent lighting cannot exceed 50% the wattage of the total lighting in a room.

You could download the title 24 specification from the link below.

Here is a link that might be useful: title 24
Oaktown
9 years ago
The 50% rule is just for kitchens. Lighting in certain rooms must be HE and in certain other rooms can be incandescent with dimmers/vacancy sensors. I find the rule stuff difficult to read, so I've linked a more user-friendly guide to Title 24 lighting put together by UC Davis.

Here is a link that might be useful: 2013 Title 24 lighting guide

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