I accidentally killed all the beneficial worms in a planting bed using Bayer systemic. Yo might contact the company and find out if it is safe for "edibles" as well as ornamentals.

Alexa

Here is a link that might be useful: bayer systemic

Lee, Alexa is absolutely right about the Bayer systemic working for that. I use it every fall on my Meyer Lemon. By the time your lemons are ready, they will be edible.

Thank you both. I emailed Bayer to ask what the best product would be. Alexa, the link you posted showed three of Bayer's many systemics, and those were for non-edible plants.

CdL, what were you protecting your Meyer Lemon from? When I just googled products to kill worms, I could only find products for application on fields, not for one lone pot. I do think that there may be some that would be OK for foods not to be consumed immediately. Right now I have five lemons that could be picked if I used something that would not be good for the fruit. I also have probably 50 teeny, tiny lemons, a half inch or less.

I would really appreciate it if you both would post back with the specific Bayer Systemic you used.

If I get a response from Bayer, I'll post it.

Lee

I'm a little confused about why you want to get rid of them. They aerate soil and pull organic matter down to the root level in a "digestible" form. And how they would "get out" into your house, I've NO idea, since they dry out quickly and die. There's no reason for a worm to try to travel across your carpet. If there are too many to be aesthetically pleasing to you, remove the "clumps" you can see and toss them out in the garden in a sheltered spot (so they have time to burrow down out of the sun before they dry up and die) so they can improve your garden soil.

If there are as many as you say, they'll just die off and further enrich the soil anyway. There won't be enough for them all to eat in a pot like that.

Red wigglers are "compost" worms. They will die in garden soil.

And they won't harm the tree, they feed on rotten organic waste.
Since the tree is living, there's nothing for them to eat.

You could put them out in a shaded moist area. They'll die in the garden soil, but will live in a damp area. If there's no place to put them, you'll have to commit "vermicide" and let them die outdoors in your garden or on the lawn.

I can have problems with scale, sometimes fungus, and also don't want to bring anything unknown inside to infect all my other plants, so it all gets sprayed. I bring in a forest every fall.

l'll look for the bottle today.

I would repot it, hose off the roots, possibly soak the roots, bleach the pot, use fresh potting soil and see what happens.

I don't have edibles in the house so that does make it more difficult. I give all the plants I move in for the winter a
systemic a week or two before transferring.

I can certainly understand your concern in such a delicate situation since you want to protect your valuable tree. The important thing in pest control is to know your pest, and utilize the least toxic yet most effective method of control given your circumstances. Honestly I can't imagine why you would need to use Bayer pesticide. That is a very dangerous substance. Bayer is the brand name, they make a lot of different insecticides. The one they are famous for is Imidacloprid, known by its trade name Merit. Imidacloprid is a systemic insecticide and gets absorbed into the tissues of the plant, pretty much rendering the plant toxic to insects. I guess it eventually works its way out of the plant although I don't know much about how this happens or how fast. Imidacloprid is very effective against sucking insect infestations like scale and mites and pests like bark borers that infect the inside of the plant. These insects are hard to treat with sprays that sit on the plant since those wear off, can't reach the inside of the plant, and also scale insects and the like have hard outer skeletons/cases that are resistant to insecticide sprays. I would be VERY hesitant to use Imidacloprid, since it has been identified as the prime contributor to hive decline in honey bees. As a citrus grower I'm sure you know how devastating hive decline has been. Basically Imidacloprid creates toxic pollen which weakens the bees and then they become susceptible to all kinds of other problems. When Imidacloprid use has been curtailed in agricultural areas where it is used, bee decline reverses. Using Imidacloprid to kill worms is like squashing an ant with a sledgehammer. It just isn't necessary. Nor is bleaching the inside of the pot. There are lots of beneficial bacteria that are necessary for soil health that would be killed. You don't have a soil bacteria problem, which might be an issue if you were starting seeds and wanted to ward of plant diseases, but you have a worm problem. Kill the worms with the least toxic yet effective means. If it were me, I would repot the tree, if the roots were robust, rinsing them off. You'll get rid of most of the worms that way. Then I'd repot in STERILE potting soil. This kind of soil will have zero organic matter for any leftover worms that miraculously survived to feed on. On the flip side, you now have a pot full of soil that won't provide much in the way of nutriends for your citrus tree. So you'll have to use fertilizer, which will also kill the worms by acidifying the soil. Keeping the soil as dry as possible without endangering the tree will also make the soil inhospitable to the worms.

If that seems a little convoluted, you might try repotting (I honestly think you'll get most of the worms that way) and then using a fungicide, which has been shown to kill worms. That won't also harm bees but there will probably be some kind of trade off. Then keep the soil on the dry side. Water with a solution of mustard powder. This is acrid and will cause any worms left in the pot to rise to the surface. Do this a few times and you should clean up the last of them.

Honestly I think you have a problem but I think you can tackle it with other things besides Imidacloprid. Here's a quote from a manual on how NOT to kill worms:

"Earthworms prefer a near-neutral soil pH, moist soil conditions, and plenty of plant residue on the soil surface. They are sensitive to certain pesticides and some incorporated fertilizers. Carbamate insecticides, including Furadan, Sevin, and Temik, are harmful to earthworms, notes worm biologist Clive Edwards of Ohio State University.(4) Some insecticides in the organophosphate family are mildly toxic to earthworms, while synthetic pyrethroids are harmless to them.(That means pyrethrin, which is a commonly sold pesticide that is biodegradable.) Most herbicides have little effect on worms except for the triazines, such as Atrazine, which are moderately toxic. (You wouldn't want to use herbicide on your tree anyway, seems to unless there is one available that doesn't hurt citrus.) Also, anhydrous ammonia kills earthworms in the injection zone because it dries the soil and temporarily increases the pH there. High rates of ammonium-based fertilizers are also harmful.

Honestly I think if you get rid of most of the worms, the few that survive won't be a problem and you can gradually eliminate those as well. When you search online you find tons of stuff about utilizing worm compost to help potted plants. Yes, too many worms I suppose could damage the roots. I'd call Cooperative Extension for advice on some other kind of chemical to use other than Imidacloprid. It just isn't the tool for this job, there are better, safer ones.

Note: Be aware that there are millions of dollars at stake in the use and manufacture of Imidacloprid and honey bee colony collapse is a complex phenomenon with many contributing factors, pesticide use being only one of them. Also there is a question of how Imidacloprid is used. Many toxic pesticides are useful if used in rare instances and appropriately, but all too often they are just spread around indescriminately which is what causes such problems. You know, the old, "If a little is good, then a lot will be better," situation which is not the case with pesticides. Several European countries have taken action based on research with Imidacloprid, but the US is still studying the problem at the EPA and USDA. So I'm not saying never use it, or don't use it, I'm just cautioning that use it only as a last resort for a serious problem which you may not have.

Here is a link that might be useful: The bee/Bayer controversy

Thank you all, I've certainly learned from reading your posts. Laurie, thank you for taking the time to post so much information. I have to leave for a two hour class and won't be back until almost noon mountain time, but I now have more questions.

Lee

I don't know what metabolic pathways those worms use. I use a chemical on my dogs that kills fleas, ticks, mosquitos, round worms, hook worms, heart worms... but not tape worms. Tape worms use a different metabolic process.

Think I'd just pick out the balls of worms. Sooner or later they are going to use up their food supply and go away.

: )
lyra

Below is a method of using mustard for bringing up worms to the suface of the soil to collect them. Scientists often use this method when surveying worm populations, (for casual observations that is). I have used it. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, lol! I would imagine it would work rather well in a pot, since the worms won't have any other places to burrow to escape the mustard solution. That won't solve the egg problem, but it will help you gradually eliminate any straglers.

BTW, I'm not suggesting using Merit on one little tree in one little pot is going to cause bee colony collapse in your vicinity, I'm just suggesting to look towards other options first or avoid it if not necessary. I used Bayer once in a vain attempt to save a birch tree infested with waxy mites in my yard. I tried other things beforehand. Imidacloprid did save the tree from the mites, and many other bug problems that birches are prone to being a generally weak tree. But deer ate the tree sapling down to nubs the following winter, and drought dealt the deathblow to what was left, lol!

Here is a link that might be useful: Collecting earthworms

Go fishing!

Many anglers use electric probe to drive them out.

It's a harmless way to the plants and the worms.

You can find out how to do it by Googling. It is not very complicated if you are interested.

dcarch

Thank you all again. My day didn't go as planned but I'm finally back.

Here is the response which I received very quickly from Bayer, and I do appreciate such good customer service when they don't even have a product to sell to me:

"Thank you for visiting our website and your inquiry to Bayer Advanced!
We do not have a product to control worms. We would suggest contacting you local county extension office, as they may best advise you. Also, we would not recommend using Bayer Advanced 3 in 1 Insect, Disease, and Mite on anything edible."

Zensojourner, I know that they are beneficial to plants but I find the thought of them wiggling out of the pot and in my kitchen more distasteful than I can tolerate. Both the plant diagnostician at a large local nursery/greenhouse, who looked at some of the worms in a jar, and the Master Gardener that responded to my email to Colorado State University Extension Office said that some worms would definitely leave the pot.

Laceyvail, wow, I certainly didn't know that they would die in garden soil. It seemed so logical to me, that if you intentionally put red wigglers in your compost pile to improve it, and that you then add the compost produced to your veggie garden, there would be red wigglers in the compost you moved and they would be happy and do more beneficial things to the veggie garden. However since Max added ten 40 pound bags of compost to our veggie garden, at the same time he added about three inches to the lemon tree pot, I asked him if he has seen the red guys in the veggie garden and his response was "no, but I didn't look for them either." In the pot, you don't have to look for them, as soon as you disturb the top inch or so of planting mix, big tangled masses of them are revealed.

Jasdip, I knew you would have a friendly attitude about the little guys and some helpful information. I asked Max if he wanted to start a compost area in the back corner of our yard - he's thinking about it. Our usually very dry summers are not what we are having this year. We have had much more rain than usual.

Bumblebeez, except for bleaching the pot, that is exactly what the extension service said to do: wash off the roots and repot. I should probably plan to have Max do that in the next several weeks so that we still have at least six weeks before we have frosts at night (which actually can happen in late August although mid September is more common) so that it can spend as much time as possible outdoors.

LPink, you are right, I do want to take the most benign approach to solving the problem, both for the sake of the tree and the environment. The only chemical, except for fertilizers that I have used on my tree is an organic oil spray for mid winter aphids. Somehow around mid to late January the herbs and lemon that I have brought in for the winter seem to get a little stressed and I see aphids.

How quickly do the worms come up to get away from the mustard solution? Do you pour it on and just watch for them to crawl out of the soil, or do you pour it on and come back in an hour or later? That will be something Max will have to do! I was so freaked when I first saw them that it took me about twenty minutes to figure out what tools to use, and what size jar so I could eliminate any possibility of actual physical contact with them - Max was not at home. That was totally ridiculous I know, but I didn't even want one dropping on my shoe. I am sorry about your birch, we tried to keep them alive here but soon replaced them with aspen which are more suited to our climate. We have a lot of deer and the occasional bear foraging for food in our front yard but a six foot cedar fence keeps them out of the back.

Lyra, what do you mean "sooner or later they will just go away." Is that go away as in die, or as in crawl out of the pot and wiggle across the floor? I thought your statement was funny and I know my reactions are irrational.

Cooksnsews, your idea just won't work for me. Even with forceps, I wouldn't put a worm on a hook and then there would be the problem of getting a live wiggling fish off the hook, if one took the bait. Can you guess that I grew up in a city high rise and although I really do know where food comes from, I don't want to deal with it in some phases. Max does the gardening and picking and I cook with what he brings in - it works for us, although he does't really understand it either. For some strange reason, I can make friends with spiders.

Dcarch, I can keep that in mind as a second level approach. It must not require a lot of electricity if it doesn't fry the worms or the roots.

Thank you all again.

Lee

Aw, Lee, I'm sorry the worms freak you out. I put worm compost in my containers and am using worm fertilizer. LOL. Ah well. You have several good ways to get rid of most of the worms. Either wash off the roots and repot or use the battery probe method. I'll post a link. It's super simple to make. It uses one of those big square 6 volt batteries, a couple of screw drives and a hunk of wire. If I were you and wanted to get rid of them I'd try the probe and if there seem too many to deal with that way, go ahead and wash the roots off. Then near to when you want to bring the tree inside, do the probe to bring most of the ones left and after that, just put a garbage bag around the pot and secure it to the trunk snugly. Worms need to breathe. If there are only a few worms left, those few had their chance to escape and they'll become compost in your pot. You don't want to hurt your tree, but you could try just soaking the pot deeply at first. When water replaces air in the soil they also come up. Lots of choices without resorting to dangerous chemicals. Good luck.

Here is a link that might be useful: Worm probe

With the mustard solution, worms come to the surface within 15 minutes. If they don't, wait a while and try it again another day. By worms "disappearing" it means they will die and decompose. In your garden it shouldn't be a problem. But if your dead worm concentration is too high, they will make a slimy mess in the pot. If you can repot, that's what I would do. I think that should take care of most of the problem. You can always get more red worms if you want to start composting. There is a lot of stuff online about worm composting. It's easy but you do have to keep at it or the worms will die.

Dryness and high or low pH are the enemy of worms. But I don't know the ideal conditions for growing lemons, you wouldn't want to hurt your tree trying to get rid of the worms. Repotting seems like the easiest thing to do, or try the mustard treatment or an electrical probe, which I had never heard of! Cooperative Extension may be able to recommend a less toxic chemical treatment, one that breaks down easily. Pyrethrum is a good insecticide in that respect, but as I copied above, apparently it doesn't kill worms. Of course that is a GOOD thing if you are using it in your garden!

lsr2002:

Dcarch and Coconut-NJ are right about the Probes.

I use a Neon Transformer to drive out night Crawlers.

I stick 2 probes, attached to the leads from the transformers high voltage side, into the ground,
about 10 feet apart.

Then I plug the 110 volt side into a 25ft.extention cord.

I plug the cord into a recepticle outlet last so that I am

a distance away.

If there are any worms in the ground, they will come up
shortly.
*****************
I have done this with an extention cord using house current.

The ends of the cord had rods attached and were separated about 10 feet, when stuck into the ground.

Then plugged into the recepticle.

Always plug the cord in last.
After a couple minutes, unplug the cord and look for the worms.
Disassemble everything when finished.

Do not have anyone nearby or kids running around,
when doing this.

LOU

Coconut nj:
I just read your Worm Probe link.
That is a good way , to be safe !!!
Guess you could use a car battery too, with a long cord.
LOU

Thank you Lou, but you must have missed reading the part where I said the worms are in a pot that is 16 INCHES in diameter. I can't separate them by 10', unless only one probe has to go in the pot.

Coconut's link gives a variation that has the probes (screwdrivers)put 2' apart. It might be safe to try that version at 16 inches instead of 24. Thanks for your link Coconut, and for your sympathy.

But LPink's latest post makes me feel that re-poting is the first step - I guess I really don't want a lot of probably bad smelling decaying worm corpse goo in the pot either. My response from the CSU extension was only to wash the roots and re-pot. At least from you and others here I now have several things to try after re-potting.

Lee:
I knew that. I was just saying how I caught Night Crawlers.
Sorry for going off course.

I also said the Worm Probe Link was good but I did not know you can not bait a hook.

If you do repot, be sure to keep it in the Shade.

I had a 3 year old Bonzai that I repotted, triming the roots, etc.
Then the Siren went off and I ran to a Fire, for 2 hours.

Came home went to bed and out to work in the morning.

I remembered the Bonsai too late. A few days later, it started dying.

Good Luck on you Lemon Tree. Reminds me of the Song.

LOU

I have used bleach often when repotting and bringing things into the house. Maybe it's bad, but I don't want things hatching in the house either. I have not noticed a problem with it. We have tons of bees, frogs, bugs, lizards and worms outside and they are welcome. (The snakes are not but I only have dh kill the bad ones- a copperhead in the garage for instance)
I do not care to have creepy crawlers inside - different story then.
I use a systemic in all my indoor plants too (except orchids)- never outside.
I can't control the aphids and mites otherwise. And insecticidal soap does not work well enough.

I sill think a mild bleach solution would be a good idea - mild as it's an edible.

I would repot also. While you're doing that, I think you may discover that the drain hole is blocked, preventing the worms from leaving the pot. Nobody has mentioned that the worms may want to leave but are unable to. If there is more than an inch from the soil surface to the top of the pot, I don't think they could crawl UP and out.

The day before they come in, I submerge the pots of all plants that were outside and then are on their way back inside for the winter. Being under water will cause about any living thing in the pot to come out. A big plastic storage tub is big enough for all but 1 of my pots. My main concern is ants and spiders, but worms would also evacuate. Most critters are apparent immediately but I go at least an hour or 2 before deciding there's nothing in there. Anything that has to breathe will have to leave.

Wiping leaves with a cotton ball or Q-tip dampened with rubbing alcohol will remove spider mites and aphids and hasn't harmed any of the plants I've used it on.

sounds like you have $30 to $50 worth of red wigglers... wish I lived near you. I'd be over in a minute to get them. They'll die off on their own once their "food" (rotted vegetation) is gone. Meanwhile... put an ad on craig's list. They are good for fishing too.

Lol Sarojog! Better yet Lee, put a notice on "Freecycle." I do it all the time. "Offer: Red worms." You'd have six or seven offers to take them off your hands! I've had some great experiences getting rid of stuff on Freecycle. But I'll bet you don't want to fuss that much. But it is a cool way to get rid of your stuff and make sure it goes to someone who actually WANTS your junk. An amazing concept. One of the better uses of the Internet!

Here is a link that might be useful: Freecycle

Why not put a screen over the top of the pot (with a hole for the trunk of course) so they can't escape and just let whatever happens happen? Even cheesecloth and a piece of string.