SHOP BY DEPARTMENT
Houzz Logo Print
anniedeighnaugh

US food sucks!

Annie Deighnaugh
9 years ago

Well that may overstate the case, but we just got back from a 2 week vacation in E. Europe and the food was wonderful. I ate tomatoes every where I could and they were all garden fresh....not like that plastic stuff I get in the US.

Budapest has this wonderful market. Just look at this stuff...firm, ripe, fresh, delish! Our supermarket is a poor step child to this one. And the flavor! Unmatched from our typical food source.

And the meats too looked phenomenal.

Further, for 2 weeks, I drank more wine, more beer, ate more meals and more courses than I do at home, but did not gain a pound. Portions were far more reasonable, but the food was fresh and provided genuine nutrition so my body wasn't screaming "more!"

Something in our food supply chain is in serious need of repair.

Comments (150)

  • Chi
    9 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    I don't really agree that it's just as simple as changing what you eat. Even on the cooking forums I participate in, and on the blogs I read, and the cooking shows I watch, plenty of people who eat well-balanced meals with lots of fresh produce are overweight/obese. If it were as easy as cutting out processed/junk food, there would be a lot less overweight people. I am overweight and I very rarely eat junk food - I just eat too much healthy food. :)

    As for the topic, I would love to be able to shop multiple times a week for fresh ingredients but I get so irritated by the crowded parking lots, having to dodge oblivious people in the aisles and trying not to step on the runaway 4 year olds whizzing around with the tiny shopping carts that it's not good for my mental health to shop more than once a week. :) I would probably feel differently if I was able to shop at the cute little specialty markets that they seem to have more of in Europe.

  • Annie Deighnaugh
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    olychick, I could have, but that wouldn't have raised awareness, presented a challenge to US food consumers to demand better, producers to do better, and it wouldn't have gotten the attention this thread has or led to the interesting discussion we're having as that statement is no where near as inclusive of all the elements that potentially go into why US food sucks.

  • Related Discussions

    low carb foods and low sugar foods

    Q

    Comments (5)
    I'll try to give you some answers from my experiences with both the Atkins Diet and the South Beach Diet. Some people, maybe you, maybe not, but definitely me, have a low tolerance for high carb foods, such as pasta, white rice, potatoes, breads, sweets, and even things like fruit juice. If I eat some of those, my blood sugar spikes and I want to eat more and more of these foods - therefore, weight gain. If I eat a small portion of whole wheat bread and a small portion of the whole fruit (with fiber - not just the juice) the body has to work longer and harder to digest the "good" carbs and my blood sugar doesn't spike high. Atkins has you eat enough meat, eggs, salads, and lower carb vegetables to fill you up and make you feel satiated while keeping the carb count to 20-30 grams per day, which is very low. On this plan I felt great and had plenty of energy and lost 22 lbs. in 2 months, but couldn't maintain that strict way of eating. South Beach emphasizes the "good" carb foods like, whole wheat products, brown rice, beans, and less saturated fat in meats, butter, and cheese. I've lost 11 lbs. in 6 weeks doing the SB diet and feel that it is a healthier way of eating that I can stay on forever. SB does get a little confusing at times; they have updates where they add foods that previously were not on their list of foods to enjoy; some foods they promote are hard to find in all areas or are expensive. For myself, I'm sort of combining the elements of Atkins and SB. I make my own Whole wheat bread, stay away from lots of processed foods, and those chemically toxic bottles of Diet Coke/Pepsi/Mt.Dew/etc. - sorry, but I had to say it! I do put real butter on my morning toast but don't have any butter the rest of the day. I use olive or safflower oil in cooking. I start each day with 1 or 2 eggs with turkey bacon or my homemade lean sausage and I have a cup or two of coffee each day. I usually have a small portion of fruit during the day, but not eaten all at once. I take nuts and cheese for my snacks and keep dinner to a protein and salad or vegetable. I try to drink a lot of water each day and have just discovered that I like Crystal Lite diet drink mix - but I add more water than is called for as I like them weaker. And I don't drink it exclusively all day. My job provides me way more walking and physical activity than I want. I'm also dealing with menopause - which I thought I was completely through - arrrggghhhh! But I'm not on hormones and don't plan to be. When I used to eat too much of a high carb food like potatoes, I would feel like a big couch potato - no energy at all. When I stick to protein and vegetables, I feel better and have more energy. It just takes a while to get completely away from our old eating habits. I've said I'm going to post a big sign at home and at my office that says "REMEMBER HOW GOOD LOW CARB FEELS!" Hah! You might want to do some internet searching and read up on low carb diets in general and Atkins and South Beach in particular. This seems to be more than just a fad now - companies are investing in making low carb products, fast food restaurants are adding low carb menus and....Krispy Kreme doughnut stock has recently gone down!! LOL! If you have other questions, I'll be glad to answer if I can. Teresa
    ...See More

    Food, food, food, remember this old classic?

    Q

    Comments (28)
    The kids and I LOVE Tuna Casserole. DH HATES it! We don't have it anymore, but now I am thinking the heck with him, I want it! LOL I make it like this. Cook a 8 oz bag of egg noodles. Drain and cool slightly. Put in casserole with 1 can tuna 1/2 cup Miracle Whip about 1 cup diced celery and 1/3 cup chopped onion 1/2 cup milk Mix all ingredients. Heat one can cream of celery soup and 1 cup shredded cheddar cheese until cheese is melted. Add to cooked noodle mixture. Salt and pepper it. Top with crushed potato chips. Bake at 425 about 20 minutes.
    ...See More

    Kitten Sucking on Fur of Sibling

    Q

    Comments (9)
    paigect ~ I did figure that nursing could stimulate lactation since it can happen even in women who aren't pregnant. The cat in question (Lola) doesn't nurse on her sister (Lucy) she nurses on her own teet. I have tried spraying on the stuff that tastes terrible and it only deterred her for a few minutes. I have tried spraying water but she just runs away and goes somewhere else to nurse. I think I would look like a crazy woman if I ran after her all the time with a spray bottle in my hand. LOL!!! I did bring it up to our vet when the girls had their spay surgery and he thought she would outgrow it. In my estimation it is when she comes onto the couch or my bed to relax that it begins. I can always tell when it is going to start because she begins by purring very loudly and then the nursing kicks in. Actually, it appears very funny and she will stop after about 15 minutes ...... yes, I have timed this action! Mostly, it bothers me because I am trying to sleep and she wakes me up with her slurping noise. Robyn
    ...See More

    blanket sucking

    Q

    Comments (4)
    As I mentioned in the eccentric thread, my cat sucks his tail - just as you describe yours do with the "blankie". He goes crazy with happiness and purring. I always assumed this behavior has something to do with being separated from his mommy too soon - though I don't know if that was the case since he was a stray. Maybe "too soon" is different for different cats.
    ...See More
  • Annie Deighnaugh
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    So I was talking to an aggie today and mentioned about the food in Europe, and he said he thought it had to do with the varieties they grow. He suggested I try a black pearl tomato and a sungold. Never heard of them, but I'll have to keep an eye out.

  • dixiedog_2007
    9 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    AnnieD, I have wonderful tomatoes coming out of my ears right now in my own backyard in the wonderful USA. They would equal the tomatoes in Europe if not beat them. I also have black beauties and sungold both in my own backyard. Loving them and eating them everyday. Love my veggies!!

  • Teresa_MN
    9 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    European tomatoes are wonderful this time of the year but so are the
    "field" grown tomatoes in the states. My guess is that some of the
    deliciousness and fresher taste was a result of perhaps the different
    varieties you were able to sample there.

    Now - the real comparison would be if you had eaten tomatoes there in
    the winter. I think you would find yourself in the same predicament
    we are here in the winter. Far from the taste of the summer tomato
    their winter selection would be similar to ours. Just like us there
    might be specialty tomatoes or hothouse tomatoes but you would be
    paying the price - and they won't taste like summer tomatoes.

    That is where eating seasonal comes into play. On the current WFD
    thread I have posted two photos of tomatoes I have picked this week.
    At this time of the year I eat tomatoes everyday and I don't tire of
    them. I know the season will end.

    I still don't know where you live but I find it hard to believe you
    can't find a variety of really good tomatoes at a Farmer's Market this
    time of the year.

  • Teresa_MN
    9 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    So AnnieD - I did not see your last comment about the varieties until after I submitted my comments. I grow some of the tomatoes your friend mentioned.

    In the picture the small orange ones are Sun Gold and Sun Sugar. In the back the small dark ones are Black Pearl and Black Cherry - very similar tomatoes in my opinion. In the very front there is one really dark one which is Chocolate Cherry - excellent, juicy and sweet. And the new one I am growing is up front and center - two pinkish larger cherry type. It is called Isis Candy. If you look close you can see a white "star" on the bottom. The tomato is actually dark pink and orange mottled. Very sweet and the plant is a good producer.

    I like the cherry types because I eat them like popcorn. And I never refrigerate tomatoes so if I cut into a big one I need to eat the whole thing. I am sure someone can suggest some very flavorful larger slicing type tomatoes for you to try.

    Teresa

  • annie1992
    9 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    I also have wonderful heirloom tomatoes in season. My current favorite is a white tomato that I only think is "Great White", I've been growing it yearly from seed saved the prior year as my original stock was a single plant only labeled "white" and which my Mother proclaimed as the best tomato she'd ever eaten.

    this is late fall at a Northern Michigan Farm Market:

    As I've said before, taste is subjective, not objective, so maybe you like things I do not, but I think my fresh, local and seasonal produce is pretty hard to beat in the flavor department.

    Annie

  • Annie Deighnaugh
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    I'm just cracking up as all of you who are raising your own vegetables and exclaiming about their quality are making my point. I'm not disagreeing that the food you produce isn't wonderful and flavorful. But the fresh produce you enjoy is not what is widely available to the majority of Americans. It has to be sought and paid for. I suggest again, going to a chain supermarket and buying a tomato and tasting it, and then you'll know what I'm talking about. And the majority of Americans don't have the time or space or wherewithal to become their own produce growers.

    I went to the farmers market yesterday and there were no cherry or grape tomatoes to be had. There certainly weren't any options like sungold or chocolate cherry to try. There were a few football sized zucchini though...

    My own tomato plants are only now getting blossoms and I'll be lucky if I get any red ones before the frost due to our cold and wet June. So how farmers are even bringing "local" ones to market is beyond me. And I have no idea what kind of grape tomatoes we got...all I know is they are turning pink not red and are so mild in flavor as to almost not taste like tomatoes at all. At least so far for the handful I've gotten. Very disappointing.

    Teresa, your platter of tomatoes looks wonderful and delicious.

  • annie1992
    9 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Well, AnnieD, I sure didn't raise all that produce in my last picture and I think it looks just as good as the stuff you posted in your European Market pictures.

    Farmer's Markets have become so popular that many larger ones sell items that they've purchased commercially. We have a couple of local farm markets and they have rules that only products which have been grown locally and produced by the seller are allowed. The "produced" part came about as Michigan passed the Cottage Food Law and more people started selling baked goods and jams or other canned products.

    Annie

  • Olychick
    9 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    well annied, if you want to DO something about it, help form a food co-op in your area. I'm sure there are others as frustrated about the quality available. Because we have such a huge local farm presence and very robust food co-op that offers as much local and organic as possible, even our supermarkets carry high quality produce.

    But because americans think they need tomatoes in the winter, bananas year round, strawberries at xmas, food available that is out of season will always taste (or have no taste) like things bred for shipping to far away places, because they are.

    I have pretty good luck at TJ's if I can't get to the co-op or don't want to make 2 stops. Their CA strawberries aren't even close to the local ones, but they are decent (taste like strawberries but are very firm) if I'm hankering for some before the local ones ripen. Same with their tomatoes. They all come from Mexico, but I think tjs cares about quality and I'm reasonably pleased with their tomatoes when I can't get local. They have fabulous sweet peppers most of the year, again from Mexico, but I try not to buy Mexican produce except as a last resort.

    Good food is available, if your local stores don't carry it, organized some people to try to change that. Posting stats and arguing about things doesn't really help your situation. You are preaching to the choir here; most of us are already aware consumers on this forum.

  • christine1950
    9 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    We have wonderful food here in the Hudson Valley,NY.. we dont need to leave NY to get better food. I do stay out of Walmart unless I'm buying toilet paper or electronics.....

  • Annie Deighnaugh
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Annie, I'm not arguing about looks...in fact that may be part of the problem as the food is marketed for "looks" not for flavor. My supermarket "looks" great...but tastes lousy.

    Below is an abstract of an article in the NYer about the same issue with trying to get and keep flavorful apples in supermarkets... the full article I believe is available to subscribers....Here's a relevant quote from the article:

    Apple breeders tweaked these apples, to enhance their industrial potential--they had to be durable, long lasting, and attractive--generally at the expense of texture and taste....Price, rather than quality, became the determining factor, as growers and retailers engaged in a headlong race to see who could produce the largest yields and the lowest prices. By the sixties, the apple industry had managed to turn the perfect convenience food--a tasty, healthy, portable, durable snack wrapped in an edible peel-- into the insipid and cottony hardball that soured several generations of children on apples. Today, the average American eats less than half as many apples in a year as the average European eats.

    Olychick, given the amount of pushback I've been getting from folks, I'm apparently preaching to more than just the choir.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Crunch: Building a better apple

  • ruthanna_gw
    9 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Annie D, I can truly say that I haven't purchased an apple in a supermarket for at least 20 years. Here's where a buy them - a little roadside stand that hundreds of people drive by every day on their way to the grocery store and never think to stop.

    Here's a photo I took at their orchard, which is about eight miles from their stand. These are my favorite apple variety - Ida Reds - which aren't sold in grocery stores but this farmer does sell most of their crop to Gerber.

    Anyone who has followed my shopping and cooking on this forum for the last 15 years has seen photos like this many times because I only buy about 10% of our food from supermarkets. The other 90% is from butchers, farms, farmers' markets, bakeries, a dairy store where I can watch the cows who produce my milk grazing in the field, a pretzel factory outlet, a bulk food store in a no cell phone service rural area, small neighborhood ethnic markets and a fish market in the inner city.

    It took a lot of exploration to find all these places because they can't afford to advertise and many still don't have an Internet presence. But they're there - all over the country.

    Shopping the way I do means that I don't have the variety of foods on a trip that one-stop shopping would give me. But if I go to the Middle Eastern market today, we can be sure to get the best they have to offer and lamb butchered on the premises so we'll eat M.E. for a few days.

    That's what I'm doing to improve the U.S. food supply - patronizing farmers and vendors who care about good food. I do put my money where my mouth is and have built some wonderful food shopping memories in the process.

  • annie1992
    9 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    I'm right in the middle of the Fruit Ridge here, so apples surround me. There are the new varieties because they store and ship well but many/most also have the old heritage varieties as well. My boss ate a Red Delicious from my trees and said that's what they used to taste like. My point is that good stuff is available if you expend the energy to find it. The problem is that we are "entitled". We want what we want, we want it now and we want someone to give it to us. Everything should change except us.

    I did purchase several things from that farmer's market and they were all local and delicious, it wasn't just a pretty face.

    You painted the US with a broad brush, and you certainly may be right, from your perspective. From a lot of other perspectives, however, you are not.

    Here you are not preaching to the choir, you are preaching to the whole congregation. That's why I refuse to eat tomatoes and strawberries in the winter, the ones they ship here are horrible, I might as well eat the plastic packaging. The only thing that seems to survive OK is citrus.

    So, in the interest of eating well, I eat seasonally. There is SOMETHING available pretty much year round, including apples, root crops, and frankly frozen greens are pretty much as good as fresh ones.

    If we want asparagus in Michigan in January, we're going to get what we ask for, but nothing shipped thousands of miles, already days (or weeks) old when it arrives, is going to be good and I don't care how good it was when it was picked.

    The real problem is that we are accustomed to immediate gratification. We want whatever we want, preferably everything, and we want it NOW. So we get it, but it is not good.

    Even if you stop spraying, stop producing hybrids for shipping instead of flavor, you are not going to get optimal produce. We can engineer some change in agriculture (if we could only get our legislators out of the pockets of agribusiness) but unless we are also willing to compromise some of our "wants" we are going to have to settle.

    Annie

  • ruthanna_gw
    9 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Annie, I agree with you on that, partly because European cooking is more ingredient-driven rather than recipe-driven. You will find classically trained restaurant chefs searching the market early in the A.M. for the best fresh seasonal ingredients and then building that night's menu around them and most European home cooks do the same. The majority of American cooks decide what they want to make and then shop for those ingredients, whether or not they are in season or if they're at their peak of freshness.

    DH just returned from the Sunday farmers' market, which is the Sunday market because it's held in the parking lot of a bank (closed on Sundays) in a small town nine miles from our house.

    It's typical of seasonal markets springing up all around our area except that this one is well-established, having been active for ten years. If you click on the About and Vendors tabs, you can feel the passion for producing food that is both tasty and healthy.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Emmaus Farmers Market

    This post was edited by ruthanna on Sun, Jul 28, 13 at 11:27

  • annie1992
    9 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Ruthanna, that's the type of markets we have here too. I did have to grin at "Lettuce Alone Farm", LOL.

    I also believe that Europeans shop daily, or at least much more often than we do. They get bread at the bakery, cheese and milk at the dairy, produce at the market. That's much different than our style of shopping every week or two.

    My real point is that food doesn't HAVE to suck, with a few exceptions like the much discussed "food deserts" or somewhere so inaccessible that it's not realistic to drive or shop otherwise. It's out there, but you have to look for it and be willing to put in a bit of extra effort to get it.

    Speaking of apples, I just got my weekly email from my small local farmer's market (Magicland) and they are starting to pick apples:

    "This week we start our apple picking. We start with Quinte, then Vista Bella, next Melba, then Jersey Macs, Viking, and Zestar. We keep picking apples all through
    August, September and October and wind up with our latest apples which are Granny Smith, Fuji and a few Braeburn in early November. We should have a total of around 100 varieties of apples this year although at any one time the maximum we will have at our market is around 25, and that will be in the middle of October. "

    If my small market can have 100 kinds of apples, I'm sure bigger orchards can have even more. Many of these are not "shipping" apples and don't even store well, so they are here and then they are gone, but they're great while they last.

    Annie

    This post was edited by annie1992 on Mon, Jul 29, 13 at 0:14

  • dixiedog_2007
    9 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Annie..."You painted the US with a broad brush, and you certainly may be right, from your perspective. From a lot of other perspectives, however, you are not."

    I can't agree with you more Annie. I went to my farmers market yesterday and came home with the following:

    Silver Queen Corn (and ate it last night and it's delicious)
    Beets (we can grow those year round here)
    Peaches, nectarines and plums (it's the season for them here)
    Cantaloupe
    watermelon
    2 beautiful red bell peppers (mine in my yard are just now coming in)
    Some beautiful huge, full carrots
    Yellow Squash
    Zucchini
    Green Beans
    Lima Beans

    From my own garden I have pulled some wonderful tomatoes, plenty of pickle cukes still going strong, and various hot peppers.

    Our markets and farms in the area also offer fresh meat, eggs, etc. Seek it out and you will find it.

    My extra freezer is stuffed with fresh picked berries from the local farms (rasp., blue berries, strawberries, black berries). We have tons of apple picking farms around us. Summer apples are in right now and then we will have the fall/winter apples. We pick tons for very low price and they are wonderful!

    From this whole thread AnnieD I gather that you just want to shop at your local "chain" grocery store and want superior fruit and vegetables from it. I don't buy tomatoes from a "chain" grocery store expecting it to taste fresh. I have a hard time believing that the rest. that you ate in in Europe that had the wonderful tomatoes that taste better then the US, that they purchased them from a "chain" grocery store. Do they even have chain grocery stores in Europe? Not that I saw when I was there...I could be wrong.

    We have more farmers markets in my area then I can attend. The closest to me (5 miles and my favorite) is open from April through Thanksgiving (Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday). All is locally grown (rules to particpate at the market). Fresh bread, desserts, jams, baskets, etc. are there also.

  • Annie Deighnaugh
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Perhaps this article will lend some perspective. Farmers markets are growing rapidly, but from a very small base. As of the writing of this article (which includes 2010 data) there are 6,132 farmers markets in the country. That is one market for every 51,000 people in this country. There are 319,000 businesses (not specific store outlets, but businesses) that are food stores of one sort or other.

    Because while these numbers are encouraging, direct-to-consumer food sales -- which include not only farmers markets, but also farm stands and U-pick operations -- were only 0.4 percent of the total food economy last year.

    So while those of us who are rich enough and have time enough and are knowledgable enough and interested enough to seek out fresher better tasting produce may be able to find it, in season, if we're lucky, it is not available to the vast majority of Americans.

    And, given the quote from the article above about apples, the question becomes which came first? The lousy apple or the shoppers' unwillingness to eat it?

    (I think it's interesting to note that there's a strong correlation between where some posters are from who are lauding their farmers' markets and the states the article talks about as having farmers' markets...MI, MN, NY, CA...)

    Here is a link that might be useful: Farmers markets growing like weeds

  • dcarch7 d c f l a s h 7 @ y a h o o . c o m
    9 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    "---there are 6,132 farmers markets in the country.---"

    Just curious. This came to my mind.

    Farmers markets are basically cash business. How many do you think report their income honestly.

    For those who cheat, we are all paying their income tax, on top of paying for their goods.

    dcarch

  • triciae
    9 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    dcarch,

    I think you're on pretty thin ice with your tax comment. If I'm going to subsidize somebody's taxes - I'd sure rather it was my small local organic farmer than Exxon!

    Another consideration in how people make choices -

    Organic produce is often less attractive than non-organic. Smaller, a couple bug nips here & there, less than perfectly shaped, etc. About 80% of the produce we consume is organic.

    But, as example, organic apples are usually smaller with a few blemishes. They aren't going to win any beauty prizes. But, they taste fabulous. Put side-by-side in a grocery store though I'd be willing to bet many (if not most) would purchase the large, perfect looking apple at the cheaper price even though apples consistently rank near the top of the annual dirty dozen list. More than 40 different pesticides have been detected on apples, because fungus and insect threats prompt farmers to spray various chemicals on their orchards. Not surprisingly, pesticide residue is also found in apple juice and apple sauce.

    Consumers want perfect looking produce. Nature isn't perfect. Then, some complain that the apple's texture and flavor is lacking.

    /tricia

  • Olychick
    9 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    There are farmer's markets where there is a demand. While many farmers do not participate in Farmer's Markets because they do not have the personnel to staff them (and maintain their farms) there is a huge network of Community Supported Agriculture programs across most of the country. AnnieD, I still don't think I've seen you state where you live - Take a look at this map and see just what might be available. I think dixiedog hit it on the head when she observed that you expect farmstand quality from a supermarket, yet it's unlikely that the Europeans are shopping in supermarkets. Let a few walmarts move in and drive away all the local sellers (or would Europeans be as dumb as us ?) and see what quality is left, gone in the name of corporate profits. Oh, and check your stocks and mutual funds. The profits go to investors.

    Triciae, I couldn't agree with you more. I would let small organic local farms exist tax free. Agribusiness seems to keep themselves bathed in subsidies and tax breaks.

    And we are subsidizing their use of poisons to grow food by paying for clean up of contaminated drinking water, soil, honey bee destruction, health issues for low wage agricultural workers, along with others, and on and on.
    Here is a map of CSA's - seems to be available most everywhere.

    Here is a link that might be useful: CSA's in your area

  • Teresa_MN
    9 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    So what state are you in AnnieD?

  • dcarch7 d c f l a s h 7 @ y a h o o . c o m
    9 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    “dcarch, I think you're on pretty thin ice with your tax comment. If I'm going to subsidize somebody's taxes - I'd sure rather it was my small local organic farmer than Exxon! ---------“

    Obviously I think that is just a rhetorical statement.

    For sure, I don’t think you are saying that illegal activity is justifiable for farmers. I.R.S. says farmers are the biggest tax cheaters.

    For sure, I don’t think you mean that questioning farmers market (FM) activities is tantamount to supporting Exxon.

    I support local farming, organic farming, FMs, etc. I visit FMs and buy from FMs. But I have my superstitions about FMs in general, though not FMs in your particular neighborhood.

    I am a New Yorker, and we are not very friendly people. :-) We have the bad habit of questioning things.

    There are plenty of reports of cheating vendors in FMs. Some reports claim a 50% fake. Non-organic farms claiming to be organic, Non-local re-packaged food claiming to be local. All kinds of spraying claiming to be no spray -----.

    The produce in the FMs look too perfect for me to believe that no sprays have been used.

    I do not buy too many leafy veggie form FMs because I cannot see how they can use less poison then big corporate farms. Small farms simply do not have the machinery, and technology to be efficient in the use of pesticides, fertilizers, and water. Small local farms can use as much as 85% more chemicals then penny-pinching-to-a-fraction-of-a-penny, computer-driven-GPS-guided-combines corporations. (please! I am not a supporter of big farms and GMO farms, choices are limited is all I am saying).

    Those of you who are heath concerned, I think you may want to have a few questions of your own.

    Anyway, I went to two FMs over the weekend, didn’t buy anything.

    I wasn't going to pay $8.00 a lb for okra when it is $2.00 somewhere else.

    I wasn't going to buy grass fed beef at $14.00 a lb when Shoprite here sells Shell steaks at $3.99 a lb.

    dcarch

    Here is a link that might be useful:

  • annie1992
    9 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Yes, but dcarch, you aren't complaining that all the food in the US sucks, either, you have made a choice between that grass fed beef and ShopRite and have acknowledged that the choice exists for you.

    I'm assuming that some farmers cheat on their taxes, but I also know quite a few who get audited. I also know lawyers, doctors, factory workers and various business owners who have been caught cheating on their taxes. It's like saying all XXXXXX are liars and cheats. They're everywhere, not just one profession.

    Annie (who most assuredly does NOT cheat on her taxes and has even hired an accountant to make sure it's done right because she's afraid of the IRS and doesn't want them to take the farm!)

  • Annie Deighnaugh
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    I have specifically not said where I live as that is totally irrelevant to the point that I am making.

    I have made my point as many ways as I can think of and I've supported it with evidence from multiple sources, including unwittingly by some who would disagree with me.

    Telling me to join a CSA or telling me to shop at a farmers market or raise my own chickens isn't going to change the quality or availability of fresh produce for the vast majority of people in this country. So I stand by my conclusion that the quality, variety, and availability of fresh foods in this country has much room for improvement; and that my experience, as well as that of others, of European foods is that they are doing it better. There may be much we can learn from them, but we won't be able to if we don't first admit that our own system (the 99.6% commercial supply, not the 0.4% of provided by farmers markets) leaves something to be desired.

    This post was edited by AnnieDeighnaugh on Mon, Jul 29, 13 at 19:25

  • dcarch7 d c f l a s h 7 @ y a h o o . c o m
    9 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    I just came back from TJ's.

    Organic strip steak $17.50 a lb. Shoprite $3.99 a lb (on sale now)

    Bananas $0.19 each, that comes to about $0.60 a lb, not too bad.

    I asked a TJ's employee if they would match Shoprite's price of $0.49 a lb, He said, "No. Our bananas are better bananas. Ours are boneless free range cage free bananas."

    dcarch

  • Teresa_MN
    9 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    I was asking where you lived out of curiosity for one thing. And at the moment I happen to think it is unusual that you won't answer the question "where do you live." And yet you don't have a problem revealing your entire name.

    No ulterior motive here. I was simply asking. Although I did wonder if you lived in Death Valley, the Rocky Mountains, the Grand Canyon or somewhere where agriculture is not very prominent.

    I'm just asking.

    Teresa

  • mtnester
    9 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Teresa, with regard to AnnieD revealing her entire name: I've always thought that her screen name is a pun for "Any Day Now." I could be wrong, though.

    I don't know whether AnnieD's place of residence is relevant or not, but she is generalizing about the entire country, so her viewpoint could, indeed, be biased by her perspective and experience, unless she has done a lot of traveling around the U.S. and tasted the produce from a lot of supermarkets in various communities around the country--urban, suburban, rural, upscale, downscale, and everything in between. (In my city for example, there is a wide range of quality available from store to store, even in the same neighborhood.)

    I've stayed out of this discussion, up till now (although I've read it with interest), because I'm one of those people who prefers to shop only once a week, tries to buy produce that's in season and harvested locally, but will purchase the kind of food that AnnieD apparently considers "inferior" because I value other aspects of the food besides taste, such as consistent nutritional quality and reasonable price. I spend half my shopping time, and fill two-thirds of my shopping cart, in the produce department of my local supermarket. I try to select the food with the best value and quality for my family. I don't have the time to go to market every day or the money to patronize the upscale vendors. I don't pay extra for "organic" produce, but I wash all the fruits and veggies before using them. If the food has to be able to withstand being shipped across the country, then so be it; I have adapted to it, and I appreciate it.

    Maybe I've forgotten what tomatoes and apples are *supposed* to taste like, but the ones I buy taste OK to me (if they are less than super-delicious, they are still giving me flavor and vitamins). On the other hand, I won't buy corn or squash or greens if they look dried up and past their prime. I think there is good produce available here, even in my downscale urban supermarket, but the consumer has to be selective.

    Sue

  • annie1992
    9 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    I'm also not sure that AnnieDN's location is of any import to this conversation, although I still think her perspective is skewed.

    I agree that agribusiness has developed varieties that are bred for shipping and storage instead of flavor. I also believe that there are better choices out there available, if you care enough to look for them.

    My only question is what does Annie intend to do about it? Complaining but taking no action to change the situation is pointless, much like not bothering to vote and then complaining endlessly about the politicians. Complaining that all food in the US sucks accomplishes nothing and generalizes too widely.

    And, as I've mentioned before, taste is not objective, it's subjective. I also think fast food, chain restaurants, red wine, jello and cake from mixes all suck (with the glaring exception of an occasional chili cheese dog from A&W, LOL). Others love them. It's all perspective.

    Just like all farmers do not cheat on their taxes, all food in the US does not suck. All Jello, however, does. (grin)

    Annie

  • Olychick
    9 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    I think finding other sources of food that meet your criteria for "tasty" does accomplish something...fewer dollars going to agribusiness, more dollars going to local farm families. Be the change you wish to see.

    Someone who was eating better food that is available in the US (through farm stands, CSA's and co-ops) would not be so stunned by having tasty food in Europe. It's available here, find it. Encourage your friends and neighbors to find and consume it. Put a dent in the pocketbooks of those producing tasteless food. The only thing that's going to change them is $$. Don't give them yours unless you want to see more of the same.

  • ritaweeda
    9 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    What everyone seems to forget is this: over 47 million Americans (that’s 15% folks) depend on food stamps. Now I might be wrong, but I imagine that most of those folks aren’t able financially to not only be able to travel to Europe to savor the fine foods over there, but can’t afford the car and/or the gas to traverse the landscape looking for healthy, farm- fresh foods. In fact, many are either: walking, taking the bus, or depending on a friend or family member to take them to the nearest major store in the area, usually the Wally-World supercenter. Having been raised in a family that depended on the monthly Government handout for survival, I know that trying to provide fresh wholesome produce, meat and dairy to a family all month on a monthly check is nearly impossible. There’s no way to keep it fresh for a month. We would get fresh enough for one week, the rest of the month we depended on canned (yuck) vegetables and fruits, powdered and canned milk, and mostly preserved meats such as ham and bacon, along with a lot of starches such as potatoes, rice, pasta, beans and cornmeal. Some of these people have come from this same environment for many generations and frankly don’t know any better, they are just surviving with the little that they have to work with. And even though the local farms here try to get to these people via weekend farmers’ markets and such, it’s difficult due to the draconian local government zoning and permitting practices. That’s why there is only Wally-World for these folks. Instead of looking down our noses at the obese people we see at Wally-World why don’t we spend that energy trying to figure out how to break this cycle of dependency and come up with ways to help these people "learn how to fish" and figure out ways to help them get access to all that us more fortunate ones don't have a problem getting access to??

  • foodonastump
    9 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Poverty is going to be an issue to an extent in any country. Every country is going to have people who don't eat well because they've never been taught otherwise. I also imagine that every country will have elderly who have limited access to proper food, or the mental capacity to use it properly even if it's delivered. Any country of any size will have areas where you have to travel further to buy good food.

    I've not read this entire thread, but I did go back and skim over AnyDayNow's posts and links. (Is that what your name really is? If so I like it!) Here's what I didn't see:

    Does all of Europe have access to the same wonderful food you experienced on your vacation? Or are there areas as you move away from big cities and tourist areas that have second-rate food? Just like those of us in areas like NY, CA, etc. that you listed have access to better food than in other areas of the country?

    Is there a nutritional difference between WallyWorld produce and organic CSA organic produce significant enough to where you can't eat healthy if you're limited to the former? I'm not so sure. Last night I went googling for malnutritian by country. Neither US nor Europe were discussed much, and on one chart referenced often US and European countries alike all had "n/a" on the ranking, because it's less that 5% in these countries. That would imply that more than 95% have the ability to eat satisfactorily, and yet we all know 95% aren't relying on farm stands, CSA's or home grown/raised food.

    I guess what I'm looking for is evidence that on a whole Europe has access to food that both tastes better and is significantly more nutritious.

  • Cathy_in_PA
    9 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    It's fairly easy to search on gardenweb where AnyDayNow lives if one desires to do so.

    I second Mtnesters' post. Ritaweeda's too.

    Interestingly, I happened to be talking with my 22-year old daughter about another food forum where a poster was discussing "moral food preferences" when accepting an invitation, (i.e. was it okay to ask whether the food served was raised/harvested in a sustainable/humane manner.)

    As an offshoot, my daughter said:

    "I am so tired of others making a judgement of me based on my food choices."

    Cathy in SWPA

  • Annie Deighnaugh
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Sigh. Ok, I admit I'm guilty of headline hype with my header for this thread, but then again, I also admitted it in the first line of the first post...that it was overstating the case. But the data I've presented since suggests it's not by much. It certainly worked for getting attention though.

    teresa-mn, yes I've revealed my full name, Annie Deighnaugh and I live in the middle of death valley and haven't seen food nor water for weeks!
    ;)

    Thanks mtnester...I always appreciate someone who can appreciate a pun.

    dcarch, love it...boneless bananas...and don't you just love free range eggs?

    Annie, yes taste is subjective, but there is a confluence of taste across a general population including even principles that are consistent across cultures as to what constitutes beauty. There clearly is such a thing as popularity and top sellers. And, as suggested by the piece on apples, which came first, the lousy apple or the consumers' unwillingness to eat it....the fact that more apples are consumed by a lot in Europe suggests that maybe we would be healthier and eat more fruits and veggies (and producers would be able to sell more) if they tasted like they're supposed to. (I used to love the flavor of delicious apples, but they are now so mealy inside with skin tougher than shoe leather on the outside as to be inedible. I've since been eating galas and fujis.)

    I had a fellow over for dinner and unbeknownst to me (I try to accommodate guests' tastes) he didn't like tomatoes, and I had prepared a salad of sliced tomatoes with fresh torn basil, EVOO and balsamic vinegar. He loved it. Of course the tomatoes and basil came from my back yard so didn't taste anything like he was used to. Would he buy more if he could count on their flavor? I suspect so. If US producers would realize this, they might find the incentive to do better.

  • Annie Deighnaugh
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Well apparently they have woken up to the flavor challenge of tomatoes, but their approach is interesting...manipulate the tomato genome to reproduce flavor....

    Here is a link that might be useful: They say tomato. We say tasteless.

  • beachlily z9a
    9 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    This has been an interesting read, but if a person uses statistics to prove a point, please make sure those statistics are correct. The most current data (for 2013) is that 103.4 million people are currently enrolled in any one of 15 subsidized federal food assistance programs.

    This paints an ugly picture for making good food choices and eating well.

  • dcarch7 d c f l a s h 7 @ y a h o o . c o m
    9 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    AnnieD, your coolness and sense of humor are impressive.

    I don't even mind your title for the topic, but it will work better for one of our regular members here Bobby (AKA Vacuumfreak) ---

    US Vacuum Cleaners Really Suck!

    LOL!

    -----------------------------
    Anyway, this thread is very opposite of the saying, "We agree to disagree"

    In reading the posts it seems to me that most are "I disagree that we agree"
    ----------------------------------
    Again, disclaimer, I am not against organic farming and local farming. I am for questioning everything.

    The following are my own “superstitions”, you are to check your own facts:

    Organic food does not taste better.

    Organic food does not have more nutrition.

    Local farms can be more “green” than big commercial farms, but not always.

    "Organic food is spray free" - not at all. "organic" does not automatically mean "pesticide-free" or "chemical-free". In fact, under the laws of most states, organic farmers are allowed to use a wide variety of chemical sprays and powders on their crops. You find that about many of the “natural” chemicals studied are carcinogenic as well.

    dcarch

  • foodonastump
    9 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Beachlily - Is it cheaper to buy processed crap than make healthy choices? I've stated that as my opinion on a few occasions only to get a lot of backlash.

    Dcarch - some valid and interesting points but isn't organic certification a national program, at least here in the states?

  • Annie Deighnaugh
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    ritaweeda, I don't understand about foodstamps...my understanding is it is a debit card which is good for a month, so what's to stop someone from shopping once a week and using a portion for fresh produce? It doesn't all have to be spent at the beginning of the month does it?

    Olychick, you are right...if we all vote with our pocket book for the sources of better produce, then eventually it will help change the industry. No doubt, the rise in farmers' markets, CSAs, TJs, Whole Foods are evidence of the desire of consumers to have better goods...at least for those who are able to afford it. But as the article above suggests, it'll be a long, long time before Krogers or Safeway feels the pinch. And if agribusiness has its way, it will so redefine what constitutes organic and natural that by the time it matters to them, they won't have to change a lick.

    Foodonastump, I haven't done the research to determine if, in the aggregate, Europe has better tasting and more nutritious food. So I can't answer your question. I came across a study, linked below, where Belgium was used as a marker for the EU, which is probably not the best indicator, IMO. Regardless, it suggests little difference in spending of budget on fruits and vegetables between the two, but Belgiums eat significantly more fruit, and US more vegetables. The consumption of plant based products is higher in BE (363 vs 342 kg/person/yr...they eat more potatoes.) The big discrepancy is in how much food is consumed at home vs. away from home. US eats out a lot. (Study linked below.)

    Meta analysis cited by the Mayo clinic suggests little nutritional difference between organic and nonorganic produce, though they didn't conclude that:

    The answer isn't yet clear. A recent study examined the past 50 years' worth of scientific articles about the nutrient content of organic and conventional foods. The researchers concluded that organically and conventionally produced foodstuffs are comparable in their nutrient content. Research in this area is ongoing.

    As far as nutritional content, perhaps the biggest challenge is freshness as nutritional content deteriorates with time and with processing. See Maximizing the nutritional content of fruits and vegetables

    Loss of nutrients during fresh storage may be more substantial than consumers realize, so consumers should be educated about proper storage. Fruits and vegetables should be consumed soon after harvest, or postharvest handling conditions must be controlled such that nutrient degradation does not occur.

    So the bottom line is that eating fruits and veggies is good for you, and the fresher the better. Americans do not eat enough fruits and vegetables (see USDA guidelines, webmd, CDC recommendations, etc.) Eating non organic or processed fruits and veggies is better than not eating them at all, especially if that makes it more affordable so you can afford to eat more. Eating organic is better for a number of reasons (exposure to pesticides, sustainability and micronutrients in the soil, impact of fertilizers and pesticides in the environment) including flavor and freshness if you can afford it and if you can find it.

    But to close the circle, would Americans eat more fruits and vegetables if they tasted better?

    Here is a link that might be useful: Profiling food consumption (USA/EU)

  • Annie Deighnaugh
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    dcarch, you are right about what constitutes allowable practices to earn a label. For example, "free range":

    Birds raised for meat may be sold as “free-range” if they have government certified access to the outdoors. The door may be open for only five minutes and the farm still qualifies as “free-range.” Apart from the “open door,” no other criteria such as environmental quality, number of birds, or space per bird, are included in the term “free-range.”

  • Annie Deighnaugh
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    An aside: given how much US eats out and given how expensive eating out is, it would seem that Americans can eat at home, spend more for fresh produce and still reduce their food budget...

  • foodonastump
    9 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    "But to close the circle, would Americans eat more fruits and vegetables if they tasted better?"

    Better than what, chicken, pork and beef? :-)

    Seriously though, perhaps it would make some impact but I don't know how much. We've spent a lot of time talking about tomatoes, and some time talking about red delicious apples and strawberries. These are, largely, horrible. But are there such dramatic differences across the board? Differences, definitely, but differences so great that we boycott the out of season fruit from the other side of the country?

    I'd also suggest that a lot of the discussion seems focused on fresh produce. There must be a gazzillion recipes for vegetables that add so much in additional flavor that you'd be hard-pressed to notice the difference in quality of the vegetables themselves. Yes, I know there's a loss of nutrition during cooking. But still, if we had an honest desire to eat more produce it would be easy enough to make it palatable. Even fresh - salad dressing goes a long way towards making stuff taste better!

  • dcarch7 d c f l a s h 7 @ y a h o o . c o m
    9 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    "----I'd also suggest that a lot of the discussion seems focused on fresh produce. There must be a gazzillion recipes for vegetables that add so much in additional flavor that you'd be hard-pressed to notice the difference in quality of the vegetables themselves. Yes, I know there's a loss of nutrition during cooking. But still, if we had an honest desire to eat more produce it would be easy enough to make it palatable. Even fresh - salad dressing goes a long way towards making stuff taste better!--"

    There is another one of my superstitions: Farmers markets do not have fresher and higher quality produce.

    Farmers pick their produce days in advance, store and transport in non-environmental containers, They go from market to market, at the end of a hot day, what do you get? Also they don't tend to throw away stuff slightly below quality.

    Supermarkets sell lousy tasting stuff, but they are always fresh, and high quality. Any produce that does not meet their quality standards immediately go to the dumpster.

    Still, farmers markets* have better tasting and more selections when it comes to produce.

    dcarch

    *Not talking about road side farm stands.

    This post was edited by dcarch on Tue, Jul 30, 13 at 11:20

  • Olychick
    9 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    I think the experience of buying from farmer's markets is definitely different in the big city (some of them) vs the local ones in my area and many areas of the country. Our market is Thurs-Sunday and most things are picked fresh the morning before the opening at 10 am. Berries and tomatoes almost always sell out, so you have to be there at 10 to get them. Tops are left on carrots and beets...they are fresh and just picked, not wilted from sitting around for a week. Same with the lettuce and other greens. No one sells old fruit or veggies here, it wouldn't sell, they wouldn't have repeat customers. Every community farmer's market I've been to in the PNW is the same...fresh, fresh, fresh. People come from all over the country to visit the Pike Place Market, many local chefs shop there daily for the day's menu and again, old produce is not going to sell. The seller trying to market it would go out of business competing with the high standards of the truly fresh.

    I agree about organic standards, so I buy locally grown meats and chickens and eggs, some from friends raising them, not organic at Safeway. Some that I buy are not certified organic, just raised organically. If you get to know your farmers, you know who has good practices, so I don't care if it's certified or not (it's very expensive to become certified). We have some small dairies and creameries in our area; I try to buy as much cheese from them as I can. Again, maybe not certified organic, but I know they are feeding organically and treating their animals well.

    I do what I can do and can afford, as do all of my friends. We just don't patronize giant chain supermarkets for anything and I think it affects the bottom line for those chains in my community.

  • triciae
    9 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    dcarch,

    Maybe getting to know some of your local small farmers might be a way to ease some of your distrust. Visit their farms.

    This farm (see link) is located about 3 miles from my house. I keep touting this farm but it's because I believe in what they are doing. In addition to providing good food they are teaching our school kids about farming and where their food comes from. They have a contract with our school district and the kids learn/work at the farm as part of their school curriculum. They also have farm summer camps for kids. They are not certified organic but their standards are ones I can support. They are always happy to show visitors around the farm...but be prepared to have the hogs come up for a pat on the head. Whenever a car pulls into the drive - the hogs start lumbering from their fields/woods to the parking lot to see who's coming for a visit. :)

    Terra Firma is a much different shopping experience than my local mega-stores. I love asking the kids, "So, what have you got for me today?" They just love to show off what they've grown and cared for from sprout or birth to harvest. I always leave with a smile on my face.

    /tricia

    Here is a link that might be useful: Terra Firma Farms, Stonington, CT

  • Annie Deighnaugh
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Foodonastump, Out of curiosity, I looked up "Tomatoland" on Amazon and in a review, there's this quote from the book:

    Today's industrial tomatoes are as bereft of nutrition as they are of flavor. According to analyses conducted by the U.S. Department of Agriculture, 100 grams of fresh tomato today has 30 percent less vitamin C, 30 percent less thiamin, 19 percent less niacin, and 62 percent less calcium than it did in the 1960s. But the modern tomato does shame its 1960s counterpart in one area: It comtains fourteen times as much sodium.

    So perhaps the comparison to be made is not organic/non-organic, but today's varieties vs. those of 50 years ago. As I said earlier, the aggie fellow I spoke to said it's a lot about variety....

  • chompskyd
    9 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    AnnieD, I completely agree with what you are saying, and I think you are doing a good job defending your position.

    The issue isn't that there isn't good food in the U.S. Clearly there is -- if one takes the time to source it. The problem is that most people don't have the time/money/inclination to source it, for a variety of reasons. Personally, I live in an agricultural state, and spend a lot of time trying to source good food, and I *still* find it difficult. There are two farmer's markets in my town, and several others within driving distance, and although the number of markets is increasing, the quality and variety of the produce available has been declining over the past few years. It's very aggravating!

    In Europe, by and large, it seems they don't have to go to such an effort to find good food. It's easily found in cities, and even in the more rural parts of Europe that I've been to.

    So, even though there is good food in the U.S., the food that is easily accessible to the average American is, IMHO, of much lower quality that which is easily accessible to the average European.

    Now, all of the pictures of garden-fresh food that you've been posting are making me hungry....

  • foodonastump
    9 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Interesting AnnieD, but note that at But back to tomatoes, if Europe can grow delicious tomatoes year round in hot houses then by all means I agree, we should be able to do a better job than what we import from Canada.

  • Teresa_MN
    9 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    "As I said earlier, the aggie fellow I spoke to said it's a lot about variety...."

    To many of us here it's always been about the variety.

    There are reasons why the modern tomato sold in chain markets was developed to begin with. Mass production, ripens while shipping, decent shelf life. Those attributes are exactly why heirlooms fell out of favor years ago with the producers. But heirlooms have always been produced by individuals and small farmers - just maybe not in your area. And overall heirlooms are making a comeback with the masses due to flavor.

    Your friend mentioned Sun Gold - they have a tendency to split on the vine. I keep growing them anyway. And many heirlooms don't produce the volumns that the modern tomato does. And many don't take well to shipping. Heirlooms - even at the Farmer's Market are expensive.

    A couple of people have sumarized above that Americans want what they want, when they want it and they want it cheap. Or something like that. They want one stop shopping and all produce available all year. Food trends/supply keep up with demand.

    Here in Minneapolis there is such a demand for products straight from the farm that 8 meat/poultry/egg vendors show up at the Minneapolis Farmer's Market throughout the winter on Saturdays.

    And The Wedge Coop was selling quinoa in 1976 - long before the rest of the country heard of it. Because there was a demand for it.

    And FOAS - Minnesota has Bushel Boy in Southern Minnesota - hot house tomatoes that are really good. The company has gotten bigger. Look for those in your store this winter.

  • rob333 (zone 7a)
    9 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    I can't believe this very long thread wasnt about cornbread.