Hmmm. These are my 1st-glance concerns with the new plan: Aisles are pretty narrow and you now have an S-shaped (?) path to access the fridge from stove or sink. The kitchen work area is basically a 1-person space now, since the sink and stove are nearly back to back.

What is the appliance with an X on top on the living room end of the fridge wall?

I would consider a galley configuration...Eliminating the bend around the corner to the left of the stove, and putting the fridge on that run (probably dining end). I would lengthen the island and widen the path. Maybe just have shallow storage on the wall where you currently have the fridge.

Could you build anything into that space beside the entry closet?

Thanks for the ideas. Some additional info might help weigh in on these -

The "X" closest to the dining room end of the fridge wall is a single wall oven, and ideally, a wall MW/speed oven type of combo. We tried different ideas as to how to accommodate the functionality of 2 ovens and a larger cooktop without the cost of a 48" range.

The view into the kitchen from the living area is of the "range" wall, which is an exterior wall of house. For venting, we wanted to keep the cooktop on that wall. And from a visual perspective, we envisioned looking into the kitchen and seeing the cooktop and hood as the "wow" factor of the kitchen.

We also have a window along that wall (the break in the upper cabinets in both designs). Which limits our galley run of upper cabinets.

The wall between the kitchen and entry/entry closet is a load bearing wall. Although I can build into that area in short widths and limited height, I can't take an 8 foot ceiling past that point, so a bump out for the fridge works, but not much else.

Our dining set also does not have a china cabinet, so when we built 15 years ago, we planned for glass front upper cabinets along the wall shared with the 1/2 bath. With the window there, and outside light, it brightens up the kitchen with natural light.

The kitchen, 1/2 bath, nearby hall, and entry all have a tile floor as well, that we were hoping to get away with re-grouting, not replacing. So, we were also considering the impact to the flooring in our layout ideas.

Thanks so much - keep the ideas coming!

What about putting the sink & pennisula off the range wall?

Then traffic could pass through without being in the work area.

I dunno... I feel like all your clearance in and around your work area are pretty tight. OK for a single cook/worker but not that great for a family who might want to work together. I'd have to play with it but how did a U on the bottom work for you ? DId you try that? I'd maybe then put the ovens where you show the 30" cab up top. Then you can wrap a tall cabinet around the corner and have additional hutch storage against the upper right wall. Across on the frig run... I"d then put the frig where you show the DO. Just talking off the top of my head.

Thanks to feedback from rhome410 - I experimented with a galley type layout. Thoughts?

remodelfla - The kitchen is currently open into the dining - no walls, just base cabinets. When you suggested a "U", were you thinking we had a wall there for use as the bottom of the "U"? I'm open to play with suggestions - and am VERY thankful to get them. I was just having difficulty picturing how you were thinking to orientate the "U".

becktheeng - I played with this a bit, but wasn't able to work out how the workflow storage and use of the dining room would work out. Everything that would find it's way to and from the dining room would have to go around the open end of the peninsula, towards the family room - and the DW would end up anchoring that end of the peninsula, giving up quick access storage for dinnerware. I might play more - but it felt like I lost storage and flow of access and function to and from the dining area.

Keep the ideas coming!

Real rough and not to scale. I don't have software programs like others... but just to give the idea of the orientation I was eluding to. It may not work at all with your other rooms. I was think the bottom part of the U as an open peninsula. You could make it 30" deep and have an overhang for seating. Would it overlook your DR?

Again, please forgive the "roughness"... I only have my powerpoint program and didnt' have a graph to follow.

Could you put your glassware storage in the area between the frige and pantry in remodelfla layout. MW could be near wall ovens....I like the placement of the fridge in this layout as it is close to both cooking and snacking kids.

I have a U with a walkway and the fridge/double 27" ovens/pantry in my curent configuration and my current openings are at the narrowest point (fridge across from pennisula) is only 27" wide. Definitely too tight, so to gain "space" I shorted up the penisula to add additional hutch cabinetry on the opposite wall. It will hold: glass, dishes, snack food bread, sliverware, toaster, and MW. I got rid of my pantry to get a "bake" center. The rest of the stuff that was in the pantry is going in my wall cabinets near the rangetop.

I love my U, I just need to get the kids/Dish cleaner (DH) out of my corner by the range top.

Here's the layout if you are intersted:

I've tweaked it a bit more since this layout, but it will give you the idea.

This is your gallery with stuff open. Not that I think everything is open all the time or nothing, but its good to know where you have contention before committing.

The single stool controlling access to the western passage around the island and the oven-to-island distance are the larger concerns to me. The next worser place is being unable to open the drawers where your tableware is stored while the dishwasher is open.

It might be a tiny bit worse than shown because your aisle measurements seem like they don't account for the countertop on the wall cabinets or the island. The countertop overhang reduces the aisle width by 2 to 3".
{{gwi:1619188}}

First - THANKS - this is such great info and help!

RE GALLEY LAYOUT -
Great exercise to consider placement of items with open doors. I can see the conflict between the DW and tableware storage - as both would need to be accessed when emptying the DW.

RE "U" LAYOUT -
I like the general idea and will play with this some more. The wall shared by the bathroom is only 5'8" - so putting anything there that take sup counter space (i.e., WO, fridge, etc.) makes use of that corner counter top difficult. Also, although not well defined on my diagrams, the the external window on the range wall is about 20" from the top corner - just enough space for window trim and the depth of an upper cabinet.

PANTRY -
I should also share that I have a wall pantry (closet depth, 6' wide with double doors)in the hallway towards the garage (it's actually a bump out into the garage). We use part of it for cleaning (vacuum, broom, etc.) and the rest is shelves for supplies, etc.). So pantry type storage in the kitchen itself isn't a primary need.

Thanks again - I'm loving the feedback!

Here is how the U layout played out to scale -

I'm concerned that the kitchen is not wide enough to accomodate the sink side of the U - 18" trash pull out, 36" sink base, 24" DW, end panel, walkway.

And I haven't looked into storage/access into blind base cabinets - as in my current layout, I only have one, and it is a lazy susan. I'm concerned I might not have ample room to have good acces to use this space, or have the tableware/pots pans storage in drawers I was hoping.

Thoughts?

Ok, so I'm wanting to see the fridge recessed into the closet where the wine fridge is now and put the walloven/MW where you show the 30" cabinet. Move the wine cabinet over where the fridge is now (store dishes and glassware here. You could do the oven stack at 27" since you will already have a huge oven with the 36" range.

Then you open up the backwall to have a nice pot and pan drawer where the wall oven is currently. It would also help the sightline to the window.

As for the blind base near the sink it could be accessed from the pennisula side for less used items.

You could shorten up the pennisula if you moved the trash over to the base next to the wine fridge.

Hope that helps a little.

In the adjacent entryway/living room - I more or less have a "dead corner". We use it for a quilt rack, small table, or other item as arrangement of the furniture in that area suits us. the only item that is really "tied" to be there is one our rear speakers for the home AV system in that room (takes up about 8" square footprint on a stand). There is a traffic path from the entry way through the family room on into the dining room around this area. So, it doesn't have to stay angled - but I probably don't want to come the full depth to the closet front down the entire area.

So, providing engineering allows, I can build into that area for anything I can maintain the strucuture support of that wall - using headers and the like. So, I don't have full 8' height...but could build back built ins - like the fridge, WO, etc. Here is a picture of the area I can play with -

Becktheeng -

Based on your suggestions - here is what I drafted. Let me know what you think. On the surface, I have some concerns about cabinet usage and where to put the 18" pull out trash. And for a while, the MW is a main appliance for the kids to reheat this or that - so putting it on the end might not be the ideal for their use.

And regarding ovens - the 36" range is a slide in cooktop. I opted not to go with a 36 free standing range and 36" oven (for cost and overall use purposes).

Thoughts?

This is getting much better than you what started with.

I'm not sure what you have planned for the 33" cabinet on the back wall, but could you put the undercounter oven there? Then you avoid the problem of having the oven open into the main traffic path.

And I hate to say it, but besides the oven move, I might move the fridge back to its original spot and put the microwave in the upper cabinet of the center section on that wall with dish storage underneath.

rhome410 - here is an update with your suggestions -

THINGS I LIKE -
I do like that functionally of each of the appliances don't interfear with eachother (doors, etc.).

THINGS I'M NOT SURE OF -
** room for bar stools
Although the bar area opens up to the dining area - the dining area isn't big enough to support folks sitting at the dining room and sitting at the bar. We do have one bar stool that backs to the dining area now, and it tends to be the least used because of this.

** corner storage right of stove
Usable access would only be from the dining room side, and I have a small wall that encases plubming - so I also would not have a full 24" width for an access door to that area.

** silverware/tableware
With cabinets as arranged, the 30" base along the fridge wall is the best choice for silverware and plates/bowls (everyday that the kids can easily access). But - it's a bit farther away from the dining room and dishwasher than I had in mind

** multiple cooks
I'm not sure if someone working at the stove, and someone doing clean up or prep at the sink area would be out of eachother's way - I know back to back wasn't better with the island -

Thanks again - and thoughts on my concerns, or other ideas welcome - keep them coming!

How wide is the adjacent dining area, is it a formal room? or is a casual dining area?

I think I would switch the MW/dish storage with the wine fridge. I'm thinking the base should go: 18" trash, 30" (or smaller) dish drawers, 15" wine fridge, Fridge.

That puts both trash and dishes closer to the sink/dishwasher.

I think you may want to play that wall/base stretch. It seems like you are trying to match uppers and lowers, and I'm not sure that that is required.

Ok I tried something different...does this help with some of your concerns...FYI, there's 50" between my round pennisula end and the end of the new pennisula.

The dining room is 10'6" from the edge of the counter (bar area in either current, or new "U" version 3) to the opposite wall.

BECKTHEENG -
Definitely a layout idea to play with - thanks. We had been cautious of putting the sink in that corner - as we are so used to having the sink face into the living area - and although there is a window along the outside wall and it makes sense to position the sink there - we have a beautiful wooded lot in the back of the house, full glass panes and a doorwall on the back dining room wall, and 2-story glass in the back living room wall. The back of the house is definitely more of the view.... (versus the side of the neighbors house).

Keep the ideas coming - this is GREAT!

Hmm-

It was my attempt to work out your corner issues/seating in the dining area conflicting with the pennisula seating.

How many seats do you want?

So, if the window on the wall doesn't have an attractive view, have you considered getting rid of it and bringing more light with a solar tube? That way you could center your cooktop on the wall. This would give more area in the sink corner of the version 3 U.

I have another idea or two that I could try...I'm at work, so it probably won't be until later tonight.

Ok, so I couldn't resist playing with this. It tries to work off closer to your current layout.

Since you said you don't use the end seat much because it get's in the way, I got rid of it.

I think the key to making this work is to put a prep sink over near the wine fridge/cooktop. This may help some of the traffic jam.

Also in this set up I would go with a range, but you could go with a cooktop and oven next to it (I left room for that).

I think it gets you 3 areas to work in and a shallow pantry for snacks across from the fridge.

This has been such a wonder and helpful exchange!

True, we don't use that end bar stool much, but I do use that counter space - it's a common prep area, as well as serving area, and landing area for things coming of of the stove.

I also went through an exercise of marking off some of the various layouts on my current kitchen - walking through how we go about a meal and clean up....and whether out of habit or out of effeciency - for the most part, current overall layout works (when there's not kids coming through the kitchen at the same time...). I can be tending to the something on the stove, DH can be getting drinks for the meal, or putting dishes away from last night's meal - or loading DW from last nigth's meal...

Which gets me back to my new subject. What tweaks, including the window, should we consider to work our way through the original list of pain points?

Is there a design/appliance configuration that will allow for a 36" cooktop, and still have the benefits of a full oven when needed, and quick pre-heat oven for snacks, etc.? Or is the reality that I need to be looking at a 30" dual fuel, 2-oven configuration? Is the smaller oven of a 48" range really practical or usable (or worth the investement)?

Can that second quick oven also be a MW unit for space savings? Where can it be located of use by all of the family?

Thanks again!

Here's one idea of getting back to bascis...

CHANGES -
1 - moved the DW to the left of the sink
2 - moved the sink to the side of the angeld cabinets closest to the DW (versus in the center)
3 - added a pull out trash to the angled base cabinets
4 - placed the WO and MW to the left of the fridge
5 - optimized the cabinets along the cooktop for 3-drawer base cabinets for cookware and tableware

THOUGHTS -
a - functionally, is it efficient to not have the sink centered on the angled cabinet section?
b - oven/cooktop/MW....I'm still torn how to best combine the desire for a bigger cooktop, quick oven for everyday stuff, and full size oven for baking and larger meal cooking and MW NOT OTR and accessible by the kids

THANKS!!!

Questions:

In the new layout, where are you storing the dishes/glasses?

what's the clearance between the DW and 32" cab? Looks tight & is right up against the place where you'd be wanting to stand for the cooktop.

Thoughts -

a - I have sink in angled cabinet with dishwasher next to it...it is cramped, and one thing we are chaning in the new layout. I'm putting a pullout cabinet in between sink DW, to make it easier to load the dishwasher. you have more space, so it might not be too bad...try to "run" through it in the current layout and see how it works.

b - Let's see, since I haven't had a 30" oven in a long time (I have double 27" ovens). I would probably think that a 30" takes a long time to heat up. I find the 27" size perfectly adequate. I think you could stack a 27" oven with a 27" advantium. Could you fit those on the 1/2 bath wall?

Hope this helps some.

RE DW PLACEMENT -
We currently have a 15" base cabinet between the angled sink base and the DW - and it seems to work well. When I moved the DW to the other side, there appears to be approx 20" from center of sink to edge of DW (at least on paper). NKBA recommends 21".

RE PENINSULA CLEARANCE -
As drawn, there is 36" between the peninsula and cooktop. As this mirrors what I have now, for the most part, I would expect this might be a bit more in reality (it's closer to 42" clearnance today). I'm not 100% sure my current angled cabinet is on the 45 degree - but it is a 48" base cabinet with about 5" filler between the two sides, so I was pretty sure a 36" and 18" would fit in the same footprint.

DISH STORAGE -
The thought is is to use the 32" 3-drawer base for silverware/servingware, plates, and bowls, and the uppers above for glass glasses (versus the plastic everyday for the kids and their friends when they want a drink or snack). If it is used when we set the table - it finds its way into either the lower or upper at that end.

NOTE -
Today, my 42" lower in that location has cookware on 2 pull out trays and a fixed cabinet bottom, and my upper has the plates and bowls. Works well for placement, but not for access for the kids. I want to move them down to lower pull-outs for ease of access - and move the cookware to new pull-outs to the left of the cooking area (and below if we go the route of a cook top)

QUESTION - (for becktheeng)
In your new layout, where you are adding a pull out base cabinet between your angled sink base and DW - what are you using that base cabinet for? Either by nature of configuration or location - the one we have now is NOT effeciently used....

QUESTION - in general
Would you recommend raising the eating area of the bar? Or keeping it the same height?

THANKS!

I don't know that this is any better but I thought it might produce more thoughts.

{{gwi:1619203}}

BMOREPANIC - hmm, need to play with that a bit more. The curved area into the living room is probably too much (that is a traffic area when going around, verus through the furniture layout in that room). BUT - that "dead" space in corner by the entry way closet could be used with this - either for storage, and wrap around the coutertop, or for a wine cooler, or small desk. Worth playing more with.

BECKTHEEND -
I played with the "back to basics" a bit more. Moving the DW so as to have a base cabinet in between (DW installers love that by the way...we had our replaced...).

BACK TO BASICS ver 2

OVEN/RANGE/MW - Well, with this, we move the MW away from over the range (now on a shelf to adjacent to the fridge) - but, we resort back to a 30" slide in range. Granted, there are a couple of dual fuel, 2-oven models out there - but I'm giving up a larger cooktop. Actually - it's an upgrade I'm not gettng, not something I'm giving up (as I don't have a 36" cooktop now) - perhaps this won't be as big a deal in the end. And with that consession, this does seem to address other pain points.

BACK TO BASICS ver 3

WO/MW - moved to the 1/2 bath wall. Pro of this, it meets our ideal appliance configuration (shy of an unlimited budget that is). Con - we had considered taking the uppers on the 1/2 bath wall and mounting to the ceiling (given space for crown molding) and had a small under cabinet open shelf put underneath - for spice storage, etc. Getting smaller things up off of the counter, and giving some head room for overall working - and to leverage the openess the natural light from the window provides. With the WO/MW cabinet - I'm not sure if the wall cabinet will feel bigger than it actually is being in that location - and we loose the ease of access to a shelf concept (nothing in the depth of that corner will be easily accessed).

I'm still "playing" with that pullout a bit (not sure if it's 6" or 9"). My angled sink is causing some problems there. But, my plan is to put my plastic wraps, sandwhich bags, aluminum foil in it.

It will have to have adjustable shelf, and I will have to figure out a way to keep the wraps from tipping over when standing on end & have enough area to pull out the long boxes.

The concept in my kitchen is really the work zone concept and my attempt to get the dishes/MW out of the corner where I'm cooking. Also, I bake a lot, so having a dedicated area for that was a priority for me. Plus the double ovens (which I currently have with a pantry).

The main differences in our kitchens is that the main traffic pattern in our house comes in from the nook, to the frdge/sink/snack area.

Thought I'd mention that I like bmore's plan...The eating pennisula doesn't neeed to be that large, you could use your current angle.

The thing I keep coming back to on all you layouts is that the opening between the pennisula and 32" cabinet feels tight.

You could always do an oven under the counter and the MW in shelf above, which would open up space to let more light in.

As for the light from the window issue, if you did open shelving like in bmore's plan, that would help bring light into kitchen and you could make them deep enough to access easier.