To continue your shopping for the perfect dress scenario, I promise to do my best to tell you, gently but honestly, if I think you can do better than the one you have on. "It's lovely on the hanger, but it's just not you." ;-)

Pity there isn't room to expand towards the driveway but I'm not surprised to hear this.

If my opinion matters (and isn't it all about me? ;-), I really like Stacey's idea of relocating the stairs by giving up some DR space since this seems to allow for you to have a kitchen that fulfills all your wishes. At a little more than 12'x12' square, the DR would still be a decent size, especially since it sounds like you use your kitchen space more regularly than the DR.

Are the built-ins on the wall that might move? I thought you wrote that moving the stairs would move the DR wall back to where it once was. If so, then the built-ins, if they exist on that wall, aren't as old as the house and perhaps not as old as other built-ins. It would be a pity to lose them but perhaps less so if they aren't original to the house. IMHO, that is.

Instead of a swing door between mudroom and DR, you could install a pocket door. They are out of the way (and out of sight) when not in use but are easily employed when necessary. If you don't want to cut off light flow between the spaces, you could install a frosted glass pocket door. You could even add one to the kitchen side if you think there might be times when you'd like to close the mudroom off from the kitchen.

Hi Lisa and Stacey! Busy day yesterday, so no chance to log in and respond, but lots of time to think about it. And I'm just not ready to give up DR space at this point. Our Dr currently fits our DR table with no leaves in it, to seat 6 comfortably. And with the 2 leaves in, we can seat 10 comfortably, which is just 4 extra people, or other family over for dinner. WE do use the space. If the DR was 12x12 or even 13x13, it wouldn't work. So, at this point in the planning, I'm not willing to go there. Sorry, guys :)

A few more details:
~the height difference from the landing to the kitchen floor is 25 inches. The 3 stairs UP to the kitchen are about 8.5", 8", and 8".

~The distance from the backdoor to the wall that backs the current pantry is 6'8" (So the wall that is shared by the DR and the basement stairs) The pantry is only about 24"deep, so there is SOME empty space in there, probably holding plumbing from 2nd floor bath.

so, as far as trade-offs go, I really think I'd choose some mudroom space and a smaller eat-in space, for 4, maybe--in the kitchen area. We can use our DR for our meals--that's what it's for :) And I'd prefer the mudroom space to NOT be visible to the open part of the house. I don't mind if it's open tot he kitchen, but just not out toward the rest of the house, because I KNOW it will not be neat.

So, saying all that, I like some of the ideas Stacey put out there friday morning at 8:44 and 9:20 . What do we think we can do with those? Or the one like the picture awhile back, with the banquette/peninsula combo...I still loved that, too :) I'll continue to play around with it....

No need to apologize! This is your home, not ours, so you need to make it work best for you. Good feedback on how you use your DR, too. Understandably robbing Peter (the DR) to pay Paul (your kitchen) isn't an option.

I went back to see which plans you mean but there have been so many variations, I want to make sure I know which ones you're talking about. Do you mean these?

Plan A
{{gwi:1616437}}

Plan B
{{gwi:1616438}}

Plan C
{{gwi:1616435}}

Plan D
{{gwi:1616412}}
I arbitrarily labeled them to make it easier to refer to them.

Plan A: Someone with more lay-out smarts than I have will have to weigh in on this on. The appliance configuration could be a headache. Unless you lose the bay window and perhaps increase the depth of the cabs along the stair wall. Then you might have room to put the fridge there. Hard for me to tell though since none of these have dimensions in them.

Plan B: It has possibilities but it's a tight lay-out. I'd be tempted to do a corner sink (like the one I pictured above), with the DW between sink and fridge. Otherwise, the only spot for a DW is between corner and range and then you might not have enough space to stand at the sink when the DW door is open.

Plan C and Plan D: I think a combination of these two has the most potential. I'd remove the slider and opt for a deck door at the bottom corner, either in the kitchen or around the corner.

It might be possible to cantilever a window seat over the deck without affecting the deck. I know we asked about this when we had our siding replaced 7 years ago (trying to make our DR live a bit larger) and I thought we were told it would not require footings. Might be worth investigating.

Might be time to draw the top contenders to scale, with dimensions included.

ok, babies just woke up...so quickly....
yes, I like those the best.

I am fine with no window on driveway side at all, no problem.

I'd like to keep the door within the kitchen, but am certainly open to locating it around the corner.

Also, is there ANY possibility of a bump-out on the top wall? It goes out into the backyard, there is NOTHING there now, so nothing to interfere. Is that even an option? Like a 24" bump-out? Certainly seem slike it would be less costly thatn an addition, but ther would still be higher costs, I know. It is well above gradem so that could be an issue? And if we change out any of the doors/windows at all, the stucco will need to be redone, right, so that could be rolled in together? I am just thinking out loud now and typing quickly....

It really makes a *lot of sense to get the door out of the kitchen and divert it (slightly) to around the corner. You're used to it now, but getting the entry traffic out of the kitchen proper is a good thing.

There's *always* the possibility of adding on. It's just money. ;-) I've no idea what the going rate is for construction these days so I can't even guess what it would cost you. Get a bid or two to see what ballpark figure you'll face, weigh the cost against what you gain and then decide if you wish to go for it or live within your space.

If it's not financially possible, don't lose heart. I think moving the mudroom entry and the deck entry out of the kitchen proper will make a big difference.

What are the interior dimensions of your space? If you gave them, I overlooked them. All I see above are exterior dimensions.

Here's my current layout with dimensions...

{{gwi:1616444}}

All windows & doors can be changed--windows are very old and need to change no matter what....

Someone asked earlier, and I might have missed your reply, but have you considered adding a mudroom onto your driveway side? This would give you so much more space for all the outerwear gear than any of the plans so far. I was thinking about you yesterday, and realizing just how much stuff you will be looking at storing in the years ahead: 4 kids (and all those arms and feet are only going to get bigger, LOL), 2 adults, sports gear, friends of 4 kids visiting, the idea of a party house with lots of guests. . . I'm thinking a few cubbies just might not cut it. (!)

We have a similar needs here with our 6 children. We finally came up with a workable solution today of adding about a 12' x 12' room on the back of our house that will be ground level, adjoining our outside door to the kitchen. Stone pavers for a floor. Patio doors spanning the walls-it's on the south side, lots of sunshine/heat-gain potential. (DH happens to replace windows for a living, so acquiring patio doors makes this a very inexpensive solution to our mudroom dilemma.) A wood stove will go in one corner. (This will help heat our kitchen, as well.) A gas wall-hung unit would work just as easily in your case, if your heating system can't support the extra square footage. Our coats will hang on what is now the exterior walls of the house, just under the windows (plenty of height for coats).

If you could do something similar, it could give you the bigger kitchen with the island and seating you are longing for. And no more crashing baby gates or danger of falling down the stairs trying to balance on foot to put on shoes while the person next to you does the same! : )

Home- I like the kitchen plan, with the table in the middle of the kitchen...however, it's a little tight for a table and chairs. I noticed that Stacey had a banquette there (which would be a great option IMHO) but it's a little tight to access the stairs.

What if you move the fridge to the end of the cabinet run, with the range. You'd might want to move the range to the right a bit, and lose that little window...but, you would have a nice L-shaped kitchen, with your banquette...and you would get a bit of a mudroom area.

You could have hooks on the wall, behind the banquette, on the way to the basement stairs. Across from them (behind the banquette) could be a 3' high shelves/cubbies area. Above the hooks, high windows would bring in light, but still allow the coat storage.

I left the door to the deck as is, but I do agree that if you moved the door, from the kitchen to the living room, it would give you move counter space, to the right of the sink.

So, what do you think? Sorry, this is pretty rough, but hopefully you get the idea :)

{{gwi:1616445}}

I'll try drawing this up later (got to attend to my own house projects with DH today) with the dimensions and stairwell info I now have.

When we were investigating things for our kitchen reno, I did find that there's a certain distance -I want to say 24" that you can cantilever and addition without having to add anything structural below. Basically, floor joists are added/sistered to support the bump-out. That may be a good option for you if you have the budget. Adding footings/foundation would certainly cost a lot more.

More later :)

levender_lass, the appliances are in the wrong order for the way home4all6 works in her kitchen: fridge - sink - range. With the above arrangement, she'd be crossing her cooking zone frequently.

But with a tweak or two, it can bet set up the way she prefers to work
Move the deck door around the corner.
Move the fridge to the bottom corner of the kitchen, DW next to it with 12" or 18" cab, depending on space, between DW and corner sink.
On the back wall, there's room for counter space and range.

Two concerns:
It doesn't give home4all6 the counter seating that she would like so that her kids could help bake, etc.
Secondly, will routing the side door traffic through the middle of the kitchen, behind seated diners and in front of range, be an issue? The plan needs to be drawn out with range doors open and chair pulled out to see how much aisle is left for traffic. Worst case scenario, yes, but it will happen.

home4all6, if you are able to cantilever a 24" addition, that would be great. If so, then a plan worth revisiting is this one of stacey's:

{{gwi:1616415}}

The above plan was based on moving the stairs to the DR, stealing 41" for the kitchen. However, if you meld it with Plan C above and make it an L (long arm of L along driveway wall) not a U, you could still have the island with seating (only 2 at most, probably) with the corner banquette and deck door at the bottom corner of the kitchen or moved around the corner with a display/storage cabinet in its place. I'd make the long end of the L extra deep to fully house your SD fridge and give you extra counter space on that run.

I drew my idea out in Paint. Warning: my skills are abysmal so this is just a concept drawing, certainly not to scale (not even close). Here goes.

Let's call this Plan Z (working backwards)
{{gwi:1616448}}

That funny abstract art thing on the back wall is your range. I *told* you I was abysmal! LOL The shallow thing below the banquette is a display/storage cabinet.

You don't get a view of the backyard from your sink, unfortunately. However, you could do a mirror image of the plan to get that. In fact, that's not a bad idea.

So here comes Plan Y:
{{gwi:1616450}}
(I did not attempt to draw a range this time. It's on the back wall)

Here's what I was aiming for: Island handy for setting groceries when you come in the side door. Fridge near a perimeter for handy grab and go for thirsty kids. Plan Y is actually best for that before the fridge is accessible to both deck and side doors without crossing through cooking zones.

The shallow cabinets in the lower left corner of Plan Y can be open display shelves above - nice view as you're walking into the kitchen - with artwork/homework stuff behind doors storage below. You can nix the wrap-around feature. It might not work in reality as well as I think it might in my head.

These are concept drawings only, not to scale. You'll need to sit down with graph paper and make sure the numbers work out and fluff out the details.

Hmmm, would it be possible to build shallow storage between studs on the stairway wall, kitchen side (put hand rail on other side)? Small items could go there, perhaps key storage, message board, even a coat hook or two, without intruding into the stairway space too much.

In the 4th to last paragraph, last sentence, "before" should be "because." Where was my mind? Elsewhere, obviously.

It seems to me that in a 17X12 space, it's hard to fit in mudroom space and seating for 6. It seems to me you really want that "mudroom" area, which I completely understand. With your DR so close, maybe you'd be better off considering eating your meals(as you mentioned) in there when you are all together and then maybe you can get an island that seats 3-4 in the kitchen. With the banquette in the kitchen, it just seems to making the working part of the kitchen seem tiny for a family of 6. You could probably have a really nice efficient "U" shaped kitchen with a horizontal island in the middle of the "U". Either the range on the back with with windows on either side, sink on the deck wall, or sink on the back wall with a wall of windows and the range on the deck wall with windows on either side. Take a look at some of the pics that Boxerpups posted in the attached thread.

I'm glad you decided not to give up space in your DR. Ours is 13X13, and I wish it were bigger. My table only seats 8.

Here is a link that might be useful: Boxerpup's Pics

Boxerpups and her pictures to the rescue! Yummy photos, thanks for linking, malhgold (and your range wall is to die for!).

home4all6, malhgold makes a good point. I thought the same thing - not a lot of working space for a home with 6 people. A U-shaped kitchen, fridge to left side, range on back wall and sink on left side with island is the middle would work very nicely without doing an addition. And if I did my math correctly, you could end up with a 5' wide island (left to right). It wouldn't be very deep, though, only about 2' or a bit more (I estimated with 42" aisles).

If you did the 2' cantilever addition, the island could be 4' deep, which means you could seat 4 at the island and add a prep sink, which will make life easier when your little ones start wanting to help more in the kitchen.

Another thought I had is to take Stace's Plan D and turn the banquette into a booth. In other words, benches on both sides, one against the deck wall, one against the peninsula. You'd have 3 in a row on each bench, not always the most convenient seating, but if you eat most meals in the DR, then it might not be a big deal.

Meant to add numbers for you.

Benches should be 18" to 24" deep (to allow for slanted back and cushions). Tables can overhang benches by 6". So if you build 2 benches, 24" deep and use a 42" wide table, you'd need to allow for 6.5' for table and benches. Subtract that from your 17' width room and that leaves you a kitchen that is 10'5 x 11' (or a bit more, not sure where the stair wall ends). Not huge but more workable with the stair entry moved out of the corner of your kitchen.

This would give you mudroom space plus table and counter seating in the kitchen without an addition. The kids would have to kneel on the bench (so you'll definitely want cushions) to face the peninsula. Adult visitors could sit on the bench to visit with you while you work in the kitchen (I don't know many adults who'd want to kneel on a bench to "sit" at a counter like the kids).

REgarding the cantilever possibility: can you please run down to the basement and see which way the floor joists run? It's my understanding that you can only do this type of cantilevered addition if the joists are perpendicular to the way you want to bump out. In other words, the joists need to be running parallel to the driveway for that to work.

Also note that, because there is no foundation below, you cannot run any plumbing lines in that area. (Again- this is my understanding, you may want to double check.) So your sink couldn't be on that wall. I'm pretty sure that in order to have plumbing there, you need at least a crawl space foundation below.....

I was going to draw this out with the cantilever, but think I'll wait to be sure the joists are running the right way :)

Holy Moley....I will respond when I get more of a chance--you guys are so kind!

But quickly, my floor joists in the basement run left to right or east/west on the floorplan, so from the driveway to the deck... perpendicular to the driveway...

not good, huh?

If the appliances are out of order, how about switching the sink and range? So, from left to right, fridge, sink with huge window over it, and range on the right hand side of the L. If you move the door to the deck, into the living room, you'd have plenty of counterspace on each side of the range...and maybe even room for a small window on each side :)

An L-shaped cooking area is very easy to work with. You could probably have the island with seating for three to four, or the banquette for six, but I don't know if you can fit both, comfortably, without adding some space. Best of luck with the remodel!

Yes, swapping sink and range helps. However, I'm not sure there's enough room for table and chairs where you show them.

home4all6, what is the width of the wall where your fridge sits now? Eyeballing it, it looks to be about 4.5', which is awfully tight for table and chairs, much less table and bench. Anyone sitting on the right side of the table will be in the aisle between kitchen and DR. Also, I did a rough estimate of aisle and came out with about 4' between range and table (assuming 24" bench against stair wall and 60" table, overlapping bench by 6"). That's generous until you add in a diner seated at the end of the table and an open range door opposite the diner - in a main traffic aisle in your home. Moving the range to the right wall, as Lavender_lass suggests, alleviates that pinch point. But it's still tight spacing for a table for 6.

I keep coming back to this: You said the side door is your main entry in and out of the house. Will you mind having to do a big end run around a table sticking out into the room each and every time you enter your home? Will it get old or will it be no big deal?

A smaller table - just for 4 people - wouldn't eat up so much space, might work better. But it's not counter seating and it's not seating for all 6. Does that put this idea off the table (so to speak, ha)?

Pity about the joists' direction. You could still do an extension but you'd have to go the more expensive route with foundation and footings.

Stacey, have any brainstorms?

Too bad about the joists. I think that means you'd have to commit a larger chunk of cash for foundation pouring, if you want to expand. Boy, it would really help with the layout possibilities, though... I am having a tough time getting all your wishes into the space otherwise :(

It seems to me that the first step is to figure out what the entry/mudroom zone is going to be. Top that end, it would be helpful to know stair code requirements for your area.

Typical residential code has a maximum of 7.75" rise for a step. I used a residential stair calculator with various riser/tread dimensions and there's no way to get three steps into a 25" total rise these days (the rise is too high). It has to be 4 steps, at a total run of about 31.5"+ (and 34-36" wide) These are general code requirements, your town may be more stringent.

This shouldn't be an issue if the stairs are going to change direction: in my drawings, even though I drew 3 steps, I drew about 30" run so its basically accurate, for these rough planning purposes.

However, you should find out whether you would be required to bring the steps up to code as part of this remodel, if you're leaving them in the same orientation. You didn't give me a run length but my guess is that the doorway wall that's there now would need to be removed in order to accomodate to-code steps. However, maybe they won't make you bring that area up to code. I can never figure out how they make that delineation. I know we had to do some extraneous things (like add hard-wired smoke alarms and bring other electrical things to code) that didn't seem to me to fall within the scope of our renovation. It would be wortha call to your town code enforcement officer to find out now, so that we know exactly what we're dealing with in that crucial entry/mudroom area...

In exploring how to orient the mudroom, I need clarification on this:

~The distance from the backdoor to the wall that backs the current pantry is 6'8" (So the wall that is shared by the DR and the basement stairs) The pantry is only about 24"deep, so there is SOME empty space in there, probably holding plumbing from 2nd floor bath.

When you are walking down the basement stairs, is the ceiling slanted, or it really high at first, then there's a point where the back/bottom corner of that back pantry wall comes down?

If the latter, what is the headroom at that point? Could that point be moved further towards the garage and still allow enough headroom to get downstairs?

If this isn't clear, I can draw sections so you can see what I mean. It would also be helpful to know what, if any, plumbing is running up through there. it doesn't make any sense to build these mudroom areas unless you can get get useable storage in them, and being able to expand, even a little bit, the pantry area would be very helpful (even if it's up higher than floor level, in a slanted-ceiling space as described...) Clear as mud? Let me know if you need a sketch to visualize this.

If you are willing to give up table seating in favor of a much better mudroom, how about something like this?

Here, you get plenty of cubbie/hook storage (I'm envisioning those built-in untils with shoe cubbies below, space for coat hooks, and hat/bag cubbies above) both at the garage entry level, and up at the kitchen level, on the other side of a new wall that blocks the mudroom view from the LR. You can also use the space now occupied by the pantry as a closet on the mudroom side and DR built in on the other side -or a deep closet. I drew a section of the basement stairs to try to suss that area out, and I'm assuming that your pantry must not have a flat floor: are there maybe drawers at the bottom that conform to a slanted basement stair ceiling? If I'm wrong, and the floor is flat, then obviously that's even better for closet use. or, the hall to the DR could be widened (it's drawn as ~36" in this plan, or whatever's existing, if that's wider than 36".)

You don't get a table in the kitchen, but seating for 4 (kids) at a ~6 foot island.

Also, I did not give any thought to optimum appliance positions.... I figure you need to get the basic layout down first... so you can ignore where I put the range, fridge, etc.

{{gwi:1616452}}

If you could add the 8 feet, originally planned off the back of the kitchen, I think you'd have room for everything you want.

If the stairs will work the way Stacey has drawn them (above) then you could expand the kitchen design Stacey is suggesting, into the addition. This would leave you 8' to play around with for the banquette and mudroom areas...and still have room for your door out to the deck.

It might be worth considering, to gain the extra square footage :)

Nice plan, Stacey. I've run the numbers in my head and I haven't really come up with any new lay-out ideas that give home4all6 everything she wants either.

home4all6, I echo Stacey's suggestion that you check local code about your stairs. I wouldn't be at all surprised if you are required to bring them up to current standards.

Have you sought estimates for building an addition? It can solve your space problems but it will also significantly impact your budget. Perhaps someone at your bank or wherever you hope to obtain your loan can give you a ballpark figure of the cost of an addition. I would expect it to be between $100 to $200 a sq ft. An 8x17 ft addition (or 136 sq ft) could run you between $136K to $272K. You've probably already investigated whether your home benefits from and if your neighborhood supports this type of expenditure but if not, definitely do that before latching on to the idea of an addition. I've had all kinds of fabulous ideas that turned into pie-in-the-sky thinking when I got down to reality (don't you just hate when reality does that!).

You all bring up such good points. There is much to consider. Probably most important is that my town is VERY strict about permits--everything is regulated very tightly, from what I have heard.

Our Stair codes:
Stair Detail:
� Riser height (maximum 7-3/4") and tread depth (10" minimum measured from the nosing of the treads);
� Minimum stairway height (minimum 6�-8" measured vertically from the nosing of the treads);
� Guardrail details (minimum 36" in height, spindles spaced so that a 4" sphere cannot pass through);
� Stair handrail details (must be 34"-38" above the nosing of the treads, extend the entire length of the stair run, and must comply with the grasp ability requirements).

(My current three steps range from 7.5"-8.5" tall, 11" deep. We have no railings here.) I believe this means that no matter what we choose to do in our kitchen, we are going to have to change the current driveway entrance/stairs layout. So we might as well figure out what works best and makes the most sense, and not worry about our current configuration.

But here are 2 pictures I took of the landing-to-basement portion of the stairs, particularly the "pantry" area and slanting areas. Not sure if this will clarify it or not :)

And this shows the awful floor of my awful pantry:

I really like the last plan, Stacey! I think I could be happy with that!

I also think it is funny to see Lavender_lass's final comment--if we go out an additional 8 feet, we could get everything we want. Talk about going full circle...I feel like you have fast-forwarded through our 4+ years of living here, and come to the same conclusion we have--an addition could be just what we need to do. Moving the powder room is job #1 in order to open up the kitchen, and DH is coming around to that :) But I think to get ALL that we want, an addition is really required. And now the price just went through the roof :) So, I'm trying to avoid that. I'm just not sure it's worth it to invest all this money into my kitchen, and still be unhappy with it, overall.

We are not experienced in this sort of thing, as I'm sure you can see. I have no idea what kind of $$$ we are looking at, for any of this--moving the PR, changing the basement stairs, re-doing the kitchen. Then adding-on, well,I'm LOST. Do you think someone can come in and do some sort of "free-estimate?" OR should we try to figure out who we want to work with and then pursue it?

Oh, sooo much to think about....

Well, see if the pics I provided help with the actual mudroom/floorplan part.

Oh, I forgot...I had one more idea. I think it's based on laughable's suggestions...We have no room to add a mudroom on the driveway side of the house, but the BACK of the house we could. That 8 foot section where I originally proposed a kitchen addition. Is it worth considering to build a mudroom addition? Ground level, then stairs up to the kitchen? Would it be easier/less involved, as far as heating/insulation/etc or not? I'm picturing like an enclosed porch? Or we could call it a 3-season (mud)room...I know those are "allowed" here.

And then the basement steps could just be basement steps...Not ideal, but is it worth considering? Our garage sits at the back of our lot, so we have driveway back that way, and could easily park back there, and make that our usual in/out spot.

...gotta run...

If you don't touch the basement portion of the steps it is my understanding that you will not have to change those. The steps into the kitchen would have to meet the new requirement.
Changing the basement stairs would not only have an effect on tread height and depth, because these in turn, lead to changes in overall run and that could in turn change what is happening all the way out at the hallway between the kitchen and the dining room.

I ran into this on a project that involved renovating a house and finishing a walk out basement (that had never been finished) that was the main entrance into the house. The basement stairs are narrow and steep. Try to increase the run one way and you run into the hallway above that turns to the bathroom door. Try to increase the other way, and you hit the connection of the furnace to the chimney. Widthwise blocked by the chimney on one side and a steel beam on the other. We replaced the treads and put in risers and left them alone.

I feel for you. We went through all these deliberations a couple of years ago. We really wanted to add another floor to our house, and thought it was do-able. But, when we started getting estimates, we realized it wasn't. So we had to make the best of our current footprint. We spent a lot of time exploring every possible way to cut up and reconfigure and maximize our use of the house. And now, happily, we have a house that works soooooo much better for our lifestyle, for not too much $$. Of course, one of the reasons we could do it for not too much cash is that we DIYed a lot of the work. What's your skill level? Do you think you guys are willing/able to take on any of the work? If so, how much? Demo? Framing? Plumbing? Elecrical? Sheetrock? Painting?

Maybe it would be helpful to get a really rough idea of the cost of the addition first, as lisa advised, just to see if that's even a remote possibility. Then, if not, think hard about whether you want to spend the $20-$30k (that is just a TOTAL guess!!!) on a much-better-but-not-the-dream-kitchen solution like we've been talking about in most of this thread. If so, then start refining the ideas we've been talking about. I'm happy to keep drawing stuff out if I have the time.

I know it might sound silly, but I can't even begin to tell you how much our daily quality of life improved once we finished our little mudroom. Fixing that, alone, almost seems worth the pain and expense of a kitchen renovation!

Ideas for getting a better idea of costs:
- Have sketches and plans with rough dimensions and descriptions of the work proposed.
- Get estimates from at least 5 or 6 contractors. From your comments, my guess is you wouldn't feel comfortable being the general contractor yourself, so you'll have to talk to GCs. This isn't a huge job, so try to find good competent lower-level guys. The guys who build whole houses won't be very interested in such a small job, and will probably give you higher numbers. (This is just from my limited experience interviewing contractors!)
- If you're comfortable doing some aspect of the work, ask each guy to call out those aspects which you might want to do yourself, i.e.: "please give me a start-to-finish price, and then also tell me what it would cost if we do the demo to the studs (remove trim, drywall/plaster, cabinetry, flooring); and also if we do the (painting) (cabinetry install) (whatever) ourselves. You would do framing, electrical, plumbing, sheetrock, trim..." ....something like that.

Thanks for the detailed stairwell measurements and code restrictions. That's really helpful. The last plan I drew should work just fine, and if you start exploring other options that utilize that space, I'll be able to draw it out properly now!

Stacey, so funny that you would come up with that idea just now. I had the same thought about moving the mudroom to the back of your house a few moments ago.

However, I wondered whether moving the basement stairs would open up another can of worms without reducing costs that much. Are you suggesting leaving the basement stairs where they are so that you have to go outside to go downstairs? Having your basement accessible from the outside only is a bad idea, frankly.

Or do you propose leaving basement access in the corner of your kitchen and adding another entrance into your kitchen from a mudroom at the back of the house? IMO, the best approach for your current kitchen space is to avoid adding more entrances and to route existing ones where they will be the least disruptive to function.

So you haven't talked to a contractor yet? Then perhaps it's time to do a little homework. Come up with 2 plans: one grand and one more down to earth and get at least 2 bids. You could take your plans and attend the upcoming Chicago Home Show to talk to a lot of people at once. If there are lenders and realtors at your local home improvement shows as there are at mine, you might also be able to get an idea about loans and your ROI for the project.

Here is a link that might be useful: Chicago Home Show

Oops, I must need more coffee. I meant to address the above to home4all6, not stacey! Feeling very foolish.... ;-)

lisa, I was thinking that the basement stairs could be reconfigured to be two parallel runs, like many of Stacey's plans show, which would exit in the hallway section, not the kitchen, allowing for a continuous run around that corner. And the exit out of the kitchen to the mudroom/driveway could be just past the end run of cabinets on the driveway all, thus alleviating awkward corner cabinet space.

But I also think, if we've circled all the way back around to the beginning again, then the debate is between going backwards 8' off the kitchen, or demo-ing the deck and building an addition that connects the kitchen to the family room. OY! :)

Yes, I will need to start getting some names and having some people in to give me some idea of what we are looking at pricewise. I think this has been a great exercise in thinking about all of this, but we need to sort out what we really want to do. I think the numbers you gave as far as pricing are about right, from what I've heard..." I would expect it to be between $100 to $200 a sq ft. An 8x17 ft addition (or 136 sq ft) could run you between $136K to $272K." )but I *think* you added an extra zero in the computation, so it's more like $13,600 to $27,200.) And that's just construction costs. Our neighborhood is highly varied, but our location is really prime. And in our price range, people expect a gourmet kitchen and a master suite, neither of which we have right now. One block over are loads of old victorians, every single one of which has huge additions on the back. And behind us and nearby are gorgeous, huge new constructions. So, if we make these updates, we will not be overdoing it.

Why does it all have to be soooo complicated??? Amazing that anyone actually goes through all of this and does the big addition, yet it happens all the time! Wow!

One other idea...if adding on is too expensive, what if you did this? Instead of moving the powder room, what if you put the laundry and mudroom, where your current kitchen is now. Then, you could take out the laundry and bath, off the family room...and put the kitchen in that location. It's the only way I can think of to get the space you want, without adding an addition.

You'd have one very big space for your kitchen/family room and you wouldn't have to add any square footage, move the powder room or change the stairs. While they are all great ideas, they are going to involve some expense.

The water and drains already exist in the kitchen, so making it a big and beautiful laundry/mudroom area...maybe even some pantry and sports equipment storage...it would be a wonderful way to gain all that extra space and still have plenty of room for the kitchen. Think of all the cubbies, built ins and storage areas you could fit into the 'old kitchen' area. The door to the deck is still a great idea, since the kids will get muddy playing outside and can come right in and clean up. Also great if you do gardening, etc.

A big new kitchen with island, banquette space and seating area should all easily fit into the family room space...with the laundry and bath removed. Can you put windows on the front of the house, where the laundry/bath are now?

One other idea (I'm assuming you watch TV with this idea) but if you don't want the TV in the family/kitchen area, you could turn the living room into an evening/TV area. I saw Sarah Susanka do this with a house and it was a wonderful solution. The kids interacted, played games and did crafts in the kitchen/family area...and the TV was in a separate area, where it wouldn't distract from the other activities. She added french doors, to cut down on the noise, but still get the light into both rooms.

Don't know if this is what you want...but it would be much cheaper than an addition...and you don't have to worry about the access into the laundry/mudroom/bath, like you would into the kitchen. Just a thought :)

I meant to add that you shouldn't have to touch your basement stairs with this option...and you could rework the existing bathroom. If you moved the door to the deck 'north' a bit, then you could make the bathroom bigger and maybe even add a walk-in shower. Great for washing off muddy kids, and maybe even a muddy dog or two. Again, just an idea :)

Here's an idea for you.

{{gwi:1616459}}

Here are the numbers, right to left (these are rough figures, you'd need to draw this out on paper to scale):

36" from right wall to curve of peninsula. That's the minimum required for seating with aisle behind seated diners.

48" deep peninsula: 24" deep cabs on sink/DW side and 24" deep for bar area, which is enough to meet the suggested 18" for knee space plus a bit more to accommodate the curve (estimated 6"-8" difference between ends and widest point of curve, don't go by my drawing). Plenty of space to spread out with big projects and enough room between seated diners and clean-up zone.

Range counter, corner to corner, 97", enough for a 48" range with prep room on either side.

Fridge wall is 30" deep to house your SD fridge. You could build in some wall of tall here, plenty of pantry storage, small appliances, etc, to make up for lack of upper cabinets by the sink.

Numbers top to bottom:
Peninsula counter 96" (8') long, enough for 4 seats. I allowed 36" for the deck door. You could also move the slider down so that you won't need to worry about door swing impinging on peninsula seating (looked at pics and pretty sure your door's right side slides, left is fixed.) Even if you moved the deck door around the corner, I don't think you'd want to extend the peninsula much more - it would impede with aisle space (which I believe should be 42" but tough to tell since I'm not drawing this to scale).

I added an 18" deep pantry cabinet against the stair wall and turned the dead corner to its left into mudroom storage. It will likely sit above stair landing since I think putting it at floor level means cutting joists and doubt that will fly but it's one way to use the dead space in that corner and gain mudroom storage without intruding into the kitchen. Hmmm, wonder if it's possible to divide this into 2 sections? One above floor joists and one below. That's a question for a contractor.

You'll have quite a bit of room within the proper part of your kitchen (sink to fridge, and range to stair wall) Interior space (range wall to stair wall and sink counter to fridge wall) is roughly 7.5' x 7.5'. That is a long haul from fridge to sink but there's not enough space to add an an island with adequate aisles. You could deepen the space behind the peninsula to 42", reducing prep space on either side of your range by 3" and reducing walk between sink and fridge by 6".

btw, I thought somewhere along the line you said you wanted to go with a 48" range but if I misunderstood, you'll have more prep room on either side of your range.

This really needs to be drawn out to scale because I'm sure there are uh-ohs to be found and holes to be filled.

Oh, just had a brain storm! If you found a movable smallish island, no more than 18" deep, that could be stored up against the stair wall when not in use (I'm visualizing empty space below an 18" deep wall cabinet) and pulled out when needed, well, that might make things work better. If there's enough room against the stair wall to store it....

Too funny that I goofed so badly on those estimates! I thought that seemed ridiculously high. I guess I really wasn't awake when I did that math. Can I blame my new calculator, too? My preferred one is buried somewhere in this house so I'm using a cheapo, freebie one that is hypersensitive to touch.

Good to know that your home and neighborhood can bear the costs of an addition. It will be easier to justify spending the money to hubby (I'm thinking the conversation you'll have to have will run along the lines of ones I have with my hubby ;-).

Interesting idea, lavender_lass, but if I understand you correctly, that puts the kitchen a really long way from the DR. I'd think that would be a big negative in a home with a formal dining room.

It would depend on how much the formal dining room is used. Maybe I read it wrong (this is a long post LOL) but I thought the dining room was only used, because there was no where else to seat everyone.

If the formal dining room is used less often, or for another purpose, it should be fine. Good point, though :)

lisa, I just wanted to point out that the mudroom plan (that I drew) that you're basing your new plan on isn't totally accurate. The way the basement stairs are, that particular layout has VERY LITTLE space for hooks or shoes. The whole bottom section of the "mudroom" isn't useable as drwan, so really you just have a little 3 x 3 landing. That's why I redrew it extending out into the hall, and with recessed cubbies/hooks that eat up 12" of the kitchen space in the lower left corner.

But your plan still might work fine on that plan... can you try it on this one instead:

{{gwi:1616452}}

I know you have been working really hard to get this to work, so you may hate this idea. But have you thought about turning the current living room into the kitchen. It would be open to the family room (which I love) and it won't be far from the dining room. And as lavender suggested you put the laundry and mudroom, where your current kitchen is now.

Sure, Stacey, but I'm doing a lot of guessing on distances between back wall and stairway wall based on home4all6's existing kitchen. That's one reason why I've stuck with concepts not scaled drawings.

With the new mudroom plan, what is the distance between back wall and stairway wall? It currently is 11'8-15/16". I've eyeballed where walls end up and guessed 11'6" but that is pure guess.

And how did I miss that you already suggested that great idea of mudroom storage in the bottom left corner of the kitchen?

Oh, and question about the island. Are you intending that it's open below (legs and top but no cupboard storage) so diners have leg room or were you not planning on an overhang? I ditched a plan with a 2' deep island for that reason but I never considered one that was open, like a tall table.

Lavender_lass, even if home4all6 doesn't use the DR regularly, I think relocating the kitchen so far away from the DR would be a negative when they sell. At least the idea of carrying hot dishes from kitchen through FR through LR through hallway to DR table is very unappealing to me. Even if a doorway was added between kitchen and LR, that would still require a trek through one room and a hallway before arriving at the DR table. Now if there were house staff, like in the great old homes shown on Masterpiece Theater on TV, with trolleys and trays ... Okay, I'm getting carried away.

home4all6, what additional input do you want from us at this point? I can keep drawing ideas (lowly attempts that they are) but if an addition might be a better investment, given expectations for homes in your neighborhood, then it's pointless for me to keep working on ideas for your existing space. Perhaps the realtor who sold you your home can offer some valuable advice about the ROI of an addition.

Hello again, all!

"home4all6, what additional input do you want from us at this point?"

aaahhh, good question, lisa! How about this? You guys can all come on over, well have some coffee and baked goods in my kitchen (if you can find your way though the maze...) Then I'll give you a little tour, over the coats and boots and through the maze (please remember to duck while going down the basement stairs...) Then we can reconvene in the "roomy" Dining room, have some wine, and draw up plans to make this house PERFECT!!! We should get this little project knocked out in no-time-flat, right? Just remember to bring your phones, as we'll be making a few phone calls, you know, to line up the GC, architect, builders, plumbers, electricians, HVAC and all the other trades that I've never heard of....

Sound do-able? There is a little problem of a snowstorm brewing up round these parts, so I understand if you can't make it here tonight--how's tomorrow for you?

Good?

Good!

See you then!

No? I guess I am on my own here for awhile, while I get somethings sorted out.

But Seriously, thanks to all of your help, ideas, input guidance, suggestions, etc, I think I can come up with the basics for a "bare-minimum plan" (move powder room, change basement steps redo kitchen in current footprint) and a "grand plan" (move PR, change basement steps, add-on to kitchen to get nearly all I want) and then shop it around a little, once I get some recommendations.

But I do need to decide which way I want to add-on--to the back or to the side, in place of the deck, connecting the family room to the kitchen. I think someone suggested this early on, Chicagoans, maybe? Anyway, I still kind of like that idea, too....

And while we're at it, we'll look at finding a way to add in/on a master suite to one of our four bedrooms upstairs--I've neglected that whole piece of this PUZZLE. So I guess that could be the "grand-master-mac-daddy-so-glad-we planted-that-money-tree-in-the-backyard" plan, right? It's not THAT much more to add on a second level if you are doing an addition, right? haha!

Well, I have all these great ideas that you have all put out there for , and you've also encouraged me to think about how we use our space and what makes the most sense for our growing family.

I truly appreciate it! I really WISH I could have you all over, to thank you in person :)

Hasta la vista! I'll be back...I just hope you'll all still be around to help me at that point :)

hahahahahaha, like I'm going to travel to Chicago during a blizzard! Not likely! I grew up there and I was so glad to leave those winters behind (I do miss the falls, though). I hope you weather the storm without too much inconvenience.

One quick question before you take off. Where is your MBR? And how far off is this project? If it's possible that you will tackle this, too, if not now then sometime in the near future, I would definitely take that into consideration as you plan your kitchen remodel. For instance, if it's above your kitchen but it's more logical to expand the MBR sideways, then expanding your kitchen sideways would also make the most sense - one roof to cover both. You mentioned that building the new deck before tackling the kitchen might have been a mistake. Don't make that kind of mistake twice.

Draw up your plans and hammer out a wish list but also be open to ideas from contractors. They will know what things can be done inexpensively (relatively, that is) and what will break the bank and will likely be able to provide suggestions you may not have considered. They should even be able to tell you how to break the projects down into reasonable phases.

(Just where does one get seeds for a money tree?)

oh, Lisa, where's your brave spirit? IT's gonna be bee-you-ti-ful here! Just got notice that school is cancelled for tomorrow, already, and the snow hasn't even started to fall yet :) My first grader is going to be in heaven!

To answer your quick question with a not-so-quick answer, we don't exactly have a master bedroom. We have a biggest bedroom, which is 16x 13, and 3 other bedrooms that are each 13x11. We have one bathroom, located directly above the basement stairs/pantry area of my 1st floor. The area over the DR is a bedroom, the are over the kitchen is a bedroom, then over the living room are the other two. The master is in the front part of th house, and the reason it is longer is that it goes over the front foyer, too. (I think that makes sense?)

So, our biggest bedroom, our master, is the farthest from the bathroom. It is close to the laundry/first floor bathroom, but not over it, and that whole family room addition is only one story.

But, the bedroom that's over the kitchen? If we added on, we could butt a new bathroom up next to the current bathroom, then have that room enlarged to match the kitchen addition on the first floor, whether we go back or sideways, this would work. It could go wither way. Not sure about roof lines and all that jazz, but space-wise, it would work.

Here's a photo of the back of th house....notice the balcony up there--that's over part of the kitchen, which is why the room itself is smaller than my kitchen is....We ahve never once set foot on that balcony (well, maybe to clean the gutters?) and I'd like my kids to never discover it exists--doubt that will happen, huh? I would not be sad to see it go bye-bye...

I also linked to some pics of our upstairs, taken from the hallway

Here is a link that might be useful: pictures

Looking at your photos, it does seem that adding out towards the back for a larger kitchen and a MBR suite seems to make the most sense, economically, especially if you don't expand the upstairs to the full width of the downstairs. You can still ditch the balcony. Simply repeat the roof eave detail over the LR window all along the kitchen wall. You could add a dormer to your MBR without too much cost along that wall, too. We added one to our bonus room during construction for a reasonable cost because it didn't impact the whole roof, only a small portion of it.

Can you do both projects at once - upstairs addition and kitchen remodel? If so, that would mean only doing a roof once, not twice, which is definitely cheaper in the long run. If you need to do these projects in steps, investigate how you can update your existing kitchen in its current space and have it be only minimally impacted when you build the addition. Perhaps you can specify that cabinets that will be up against walls now have finished sides so that when walls come down, they won't need to be redone. That said, if you extend the run of cabinets into the new space, you won't need to worry about that because new cabinets will cover any exposed sides. Opt for laminate counters or another inexpensive material to be replaced with upgraded materials later. I'm sure a good quality contractor will be able to help you think the big picture down into doable parts so that it all flows together eventually. I really think you need to do this so that you don't find yourself later saying, "If only we had done X then, we could do Y now."

Hope you're not too buried in snow! My friends in Chicago sent me photos showing drifts 4' or more deep. Yikes!

One more upstairs idea: If you don't love the balcony anyhow, is it spacious enough to configure a bath up there? An outdoor shower maybe - in a blizzard? Hee, hee. But seriously, could it be enclosed so that a "modest" bath could be up there, sink, loo, and 48" stall shower, perhaps? That would be a very minor addition, I think. Getting the plumbing from there down could be a bit trickier though, but probably not impossible.

If you want to avoid the cost of adding on (and I would definitely understand that kind of desire), have you given any more thought to putting the kitchen in the living room space? IMO, Lavender's idea of turning the current kitchen into a mudroom is a really nice solution. The LR wouldn't be sooo far to "schlepp" (what a great word!) the groceries, not as far as the family room, at least. Your LR looks pretty spacious. It might be fun to incorporate the fireplace, having a sort of keeping room effect. It may even be long enough to put some sort of table at one end or the other? If so, could all the meals be eaten there? Then, the DR could become the "away" room, which could be nice when your children are older and you and your DH would like a quiet retreat. Later. .? Maybe even now- LOL! It could be the sound containment room, or the quiet room, depending on the needs of the moment. Whatever you decide, I wish you the best and look forward to seeing the "after" pictures some day. : )

Here is a rough sketch of putting the kitchen in the living room. It would require getting creative with the front window, and moving or removing the French doors to the living room. It looks like there would be plenty of room for eating, and enough room for meal prep, too. You "might" be able to squeeze in a pair of petite comfy chairs by the fireplace too. OR, put the table by the fireplace when it is just DH and DC home for meals, leave the chairs by the back window, and then move them to expand the table toward the back window for larger gatherings.

As far as carrying groceries... is it a simple matter to park the car by the front door, unload (using the fire brigade model of passing the bags up the line-lots of helpers coming up there, grin), and then park the car out back when done?

These changes would allow you to have an amazingly wonderful mudroom by the back door, you wouldn't have to do anything to change the powder room, the stairs by the back wouldn't have to be reconfigured, you wouldn't have to add on. . . saving a ton of $$ (and hassle).

This is all short term stuff, but this would be the least intrusive into your everyday life during reconstruction. You could still use your current kitchen every day while the new kitchen is installed, move everything into the new cupboards, and then put in a mudroom in the old kitchen that holds it ALL. : )

If you didn't want to change out the front windows in the living room (they are so pretty I'd hate to mess with them!), You could install cabs in front of them that would be backed with bead-board so that they looked like finished cabinetry from the street. Or, put half shutters of some kind between them and the street, plantation style, perhaps?

laughable, that balcony can't be much wider than 4', judging by the door onto the balcony and the size of the adjacent bedroom to the kitchen below it. That narrow width would be okay for a powder room - sink at one end, toilet at the other - but it isn't deep enough to create a master bath. Our boys' bathroom is 67.5" deep with tub/shower, toilet and vanity. It could be perhaps 6" narrower but anything less would not do.

Also, enclosing the balcony would entail some complicated (costly) roof work. Lastly, the adjacent bedroom is only 11x13, meager by today's standards for a MBR and, from what the OP wrote above, not up to snuff for her neighborhood, which would affect resale down the road.

home4all6, I had an idea that could be a middle ground between working within your home's footprint and a MBR suite/kitchen addition. It is spurred by my memory of your comment that the FR addition was either built to be or could be turned into a first floor MBR suite. This likely won't be appealing to you since your children are still quite young but it won't be that many years before the idea of having some space between their rooms and yours will be quite appealing. Also, I don't know if this holds true for your area but first floor MBR suites are popular here because it means that people can stay in their homes longer.

On to my idea:

Build an addition for a larger eat-in kitchen, addressing mudroom, side entry stairs and PR issues at the same time. It's possible that an addition may offer up other possibilities for a PR location that won't require losing your home's center hall entry. I know you don't use it and wouldn't miss it but losing the central hall entry could be a negative for future buyers.

Then, at some point in the future (that will arrive sooner than you realize), convert your FR into a MBR suite and convert the 16x13 room you are currently using as a MBR into a bonus room/media room. Is the existing laundry room large enough to be a walk-in closet as well? If not, you'll need to relocate this when you convert the FR into a MBR suite. Or perhaps include room for W/D etc in your mudroom plans.

I don't know your market so please ask local realtors which of the potential revisions will make your home most appealing to future buyers. I'm not saying that's what you need to choose but it's good information to consider as you decide how to proceed.

btw, this thread is coming close to the 150 cut-off so it would be a good idea to start saving all the information and suggested plans now before they drop off the forum.

Home- Beautiful house! Now, that we've seen your pictures, I agree with Lisa, definitely add on to the back of the kitchen, with a master bath above. I also like her idea about what to do, in place of the balcony.

So, do you have a floor plan of your 'master bedroom' with ideas for your new bath? Can you do it all as one project? You have a lovely home and I think this remodel would add a great deal of value, even in this current market. Anytime you can make a small kitchen bigger...and add a master bath...that's money well spent!

Nice deck, too. No wonder you didn't want to tear it all off, for an addition (LOL) so, much nicer to just take off the railing, where the new kitchen addition will be :)

Home- I think you should move the powder room...it just takes up too much space in the kitchen, with only an 8' addition. I like Stacey's idea of moving the powder room...and having the closet in the hall, and it will look original, like it was built-in under the stairs.

For the addition, I would turn the little closet, between the dining room and kitchen, into cubbies and put a bench with hooks, where the fridge is now.

This will give you a lovely, big space for your kitchen with island...and still have your banquette seating for six...and your access to the deck! If you can afford to do the bath, too, I would definitely remodel all at once.

The family room seems to work very well for you, so I can see why you want to keep the rest of the first floor 'as is' and concentrate on the kitchen/master bath remodel. Best of luck! :)

sorry if this is up in the posts somewhere - but do you have a good GC you'd reco/you're working with? we are moving to Berwyn soon and doing a kitchen remodel in a 20s brick bungalow. any recos would be great. thank you!!