You're reading "too much" into what you've read. There are many machines that work fine. Decide first if you want a frontloader or toploader. Then pick one according to your price range. Unless you live in an area with outrageously high water and sewer services, no need to base your decision solely on energy/water use. Even a "low end" machine would do you OK for longer than just a year or two.

"manufacturers are not up to speed with new water and energy regulations, many washers on the market don't get your clothes clean."

Have no idea what you are reading, but I don't believe that is true. You do have to decide on TL or FL and your price range. I have a LG FL that is very water and energy efficient and gets my clothes clean.

premier, what LG model do you have? How long? Could you describe any pros/cons?

I think there are stricter U.S.A. energy regulations that go into effect in 2008 so maybe some manufactures are not up with them. If it were my decision I would get something before the standards kick in.

I am all for energy efficiency but not at the sacrifice of good rinsing. I have problems with detergent residue so I am speaking mostly about my situation. Many times water levels get reduced to meet energy requirements. Sometimes temperatures we once regarded as warm get labeled as HOT in order to meet energy standards.

So if I knew these standards were going to be tightened I might run out and get something that will use more and hotter water than what would be available in 2008. Just what I WOULD DO when it comes to washing and rinsing clothes vs energy standards.

I bought my FL washer in January of 2003. It washes and provides high level rinses, and I will repair it when it breaks before I buy any of the units made now.

I have the Cabrio HE. Some people have had complaints about it, but I have not had any problems with it. I have owned it since March. It rinses better than any machine I have ever owned and uses less water than a traditional TLer. I mention the rinse because I too have problems with detergent residues, and I have been able to cut back on extra rinses with this machine. I was afraid to get this machine because of stuff I had read about it, but I am really happy I got it.

Don't worry too much about everything you read or you will end up afraid to make a decision. First decide if you want a front or top loader, then decide what you need the machine to do and what bell and whistles you need. Look at machines and pick the one you think fits your needs best. A big factor in your decision will be where the machine is going. Flers are more prone to vibration problems than TLer (why I ended with the Cabrio after starting with a Bosch) so if your floor is not cement or very sturdy you might want a TLer, or at least a FLer that has something to dampen vibrations (not the Bosch Nexxt 500).

FWIW...I've owned/used Duet9400 for 2 1/2 years. Trouble-free and best performance of any washer I've owned over the last 3 1/2 decades. Would buy again if shopping today.

Recommend it without hesitation. In any event, get FL with heater.

I have the LG Tromm WM2487. I have had it almost a month but I have done a real lot of laundry within that time. I love the larger size capacity. I can wash comforters and they really get clean and rinse out. Before I had a whirlpool super capacity and always ran extra rinses. There is no way you can actually clean a comforter in a TL. It can hardly move in the tub. Due to the large drum size, you can fit in more laundry making less loads. You can also do small loads. I have even washed one item.

It is gentler on your clothes and it really does wash them better and rinse better. I have even pulled out things I thought I had cleaned and rinsed really well in my old machine and ran them in the LG with just water and I was shocked how much soap residue was in them. Not only did I previously use the extra rinse, I did at times wash again with just water to get rid of any soap with certain things. I think the higher spin speed is aiding in getting rid of the soap in the FL. No TL can spin like a FL. In the wash cycle, the movement of the clothes is different in a FL than a TL. My LG is cleaning so well that I no longer need to use bleach or any other additive to get clean clothes or white whites. At most, if there is a real bad stain I will spray a little pretreater on it. It really isn't a debate. It has always been known that FLs clean and rinse better than TLs.

I also like the internal heater. Now I know when I select hot or warm that I'm getting the proper water temperature. I have used the steam cycle and really like it also.

FLs do use less water but the LG allows you to use extra water. If you are used to a TL, you still wont think it is a lot of water. With a TL, you fill the tub with water and thats it. With my LG, it will drain out some dirty water and refill with clean water so you are not using the same dirty water. That is a huge benefit. Within a rinse cycle, it will add water and flip the clothes around in both directions and then drain out, spin out the clothes and do it again so you really get a more effective rinse.

The sanitize cycle is great. You can wash bedding, pillows, towels whatever and never have to use bleach.

I don't think there is a huge difference in FLs with water used. They all use so much less water than TLs. But there is a big difference with the electricity used. They all claim to be energy efficient with electricity but if you actually check the watts used there is a big difference. The LG uses a lot less watts than other TLs.

What I don't like. You can't soak in a FL. You don't need to soak as often as you might have with a TL but if you need to you are using a sink or plastic bin/pan.

You have to keep your FL clean. There is more cleaning/wiping required with any FL compared to a TL. Not that it takes much time but it is something new to do. I have a separate laundry room so I keep my FL door open most of the time. The LG also has a clean cycle which is very good at getting rid of any buildup behind the drum.

You also have to get used to HE detergent. I use at most 1 tablespoon sometimes less. It is had to believe that little amount can clean but it does. There is a little learning curve to that but I'm not running out always purchasing detergent. A little bottle will last a very long time. That savings alone does add up.

I would never go back to a TL. I have no vibration problems or any other type of problems with mine. I did check on the internet about LG problems and there are so many people posting problems with Maytag and Whirlpool and the problems were severe. I didn't find people posting problems with LGs. I have seen people refer to service availability problems but I just don't see people detailing problems with their LGs like I have seen with other brands. Based on my experience and what I found on line, I believe LG is very reliable.

I ended up with a Kenmore HE5t front loader. It's made by Whirlpool in Germany which for me equals quality. It's also on top of the current Consumer Reports list. All the best washers in Europe (where I am from) originates in Germany.

It has 4cu capacity and one features I think is very important: The drum turns both ways. Firs it turns clockwise, and then counter clockwise. The LG's I looked at had the drum turning only one way. Also, our laundry room shares wall with our bedroom, and this is the quietest machine I have ever (not) heard! Even at max spin it's relatively quiet. With 4 kids we often do two loads a day. Now we do not have to since this one takes care of twice as much as the old top loader. Kenmore claims it can clean 23 bath towels in one go. That's a lot of towels!

//C

My LG turns both ways.

Newhouse,

CR this summer had an issue with the cover saying "washing machines that don't wash." Their report indicated the current TL except for the HE TL did not wash well due to 2007 energy standard changes. Some were very poor to the point of 'why even bother to make it." So, IMHO, you should have some concern for a TL, but this IS not yet true for a FL.

If 2008 is gong to be stricter, gosh... So new traditional TL are essential dead today. Finding a used TL or old stock are about it for a traditional TL.

IMHO, I don't see the traditional TL having much of a future. It will be mostly FL and a few HE TL unless some new technology is used. But using just detergent, washing action and water levels, there is no magic. One can only tweaks so much without materially affecting the wash performance. I think we have hit the limit for TL and FL are not far behind.

And has been stated, even the FL are caught in the energy savings design cycles. They are reducing water levels/cycles on rinses to almost nothing. IMHO, too much.

I tried a Miele w48XX, it was essentially destroyed as a good washing machines by the new energy design. It was in performance nothing more than an overpriced Whirlpool, LG or Samsung -i.e. they all have the lowest common denominator 2007 energy standards. The Kenmore, which I now have, it somewhat better. But still impacted by reduced water lever. The equivalent Whirlpool duet would be unsatisfactory.

I have thought about trying to find a used older model Miele (looked for new, but they are gone). This generation of FL, just about did it perfect- full temp controls and water/cycles levels. Even my old Bosch of around 2000, beats the current Miele W48xx and HE5t in washing capabilities.

Thanks for all of the posts! To those concerned about where I'm getting my info, this is an excerpt of Consumer Reports June 2007:

"Not so long ago you could count on most washers to get your clothes very clean. Not anymore. Our latest tests found huge performance differences among machines. Some left our stain-soaked swatches nearly as dirty as they were before washing. Why? As of January, the U.S. Department of Energy has required washers to use 21 percent less energy, a goal we wholeheartedly support. ...Today most top-loaders only get a good washing score, and some had the lowest scores weve seen in years..... Several major manufacturers are meeting the new energy standard by lowering wash water temperatures. But doing this often lowers the washing performance."

I'm not afraid to make a decision, I just wonder if now is the worst possible time to buy.

There are toploaders still available (at least one agitator-style machine of which I know) that can do a hot wash and clean well. CR wouldn't have tested running that option though, they'd test using the default energy-saving settings because the typical consumer would run the machine that way and not bother to investigate or change the settings.

newhouse202---I have been searching for a new W/D also. And I read June's consumers report on how poor the TL clean. Got confused with all the model numbers ect. Saturday I ordered a washer and dryer and already 2nd guessing myself---wondering if I should just cancell both orders. Will write the models I ordered in another thread.

Premier: I guess I wasn't being precise: I was thinking about the spin cycle. Does the LG turn both ways there? The sales rep where I looked at the LG told me it didn't. I like the tought of buying domestic...ummm...,made in Germany.. :)

Yes the LG turns both ways in wash and in rinse cycles.

So it sounds like CR's June 2007 report was concerning TLs only. Is that correct? I did not read this report but I'm confused about some statements. TLs still have a hot wash. Isn't the temperature of the hot wash dependent upon your water temperature of your hot water? I know some FLs have a built in water heater so that would get and keep the temperature even hotter. How is the water temperature of the water helping machines meet energy standards when most did not have a built in water heater? Which brands and models did CR identify as reducing water temperature to meet standards?

As far as water levels, TLs didn't reduce their water levels. Is CRs trying to say TLs use less water now? TLs rely on huge amounts of water. They won't clean well if you reduce the water levels. Can't you still control the water levels in TLs? True FLs for the house don't use the amount of water that we see in a laundromat. Did they ever? Have the water levels been reduced in 2007 for residential FLs? Many FLs sold in 2007 were being sold prior to Jan 07 like the one I purchased. Are people saying new models coming out for the first time after Jan 07 will have even less water or that the ones before Jan and sold afterwards had the reduction? Normally CR cites discontinued model numbers. How current were these model numbers?

How do you test a wash using the energy savings cycle? What cycle is that?

When I checked out the energy star info, it said that FLs automatically would achieve a better rating on water because they use at least half the amount of water compared to any TL. I never heard they were reducing water levels in FL. It also said due to the better water extraction of FLs they would rate higher than any TL as FLs require less drying time which really eats up watts.

Some FLs like Maytag uses about the same amount of watts as TLs. The typical TL uses in the 400 range of watts so did the Maytag FL I checked. LG used 167 watts. Both units claimed energy star but you can see energy star rating can be achieved without lowering watts.

"Bypass high-efficiency top-loaders. Theyre as expensive as front-loaders, but usually not as efficient or reliable. Conventional top-loaders are the least expensive and have shorter cycle times but are mediocre at washing."

Found the article. The article was knocking TLs not FLs.

premier,
the energy efficiency of a washing amchine takes into account the energy needed to heat up the water, no matter if that happens inside of the washer or in your hot water heater. The maximum temperature for a TL is usually the temperature that your hot water heater achieves, however, if you add automatic temperature control, the TL will mix the hot with cold water to guarantee the desired (lower) temperature. You do save some energy that way, because you'll use less hot water than before.

Regarding the electricity usage, where did you read that FLs use around 400 kWh per year? Most FLs are in the high 100's or the lower to mid 200's. It all depends on the kind of cycles you use though. The energy star rating assumes that you do all your loads on the normal setting...not very realistic. Some washers heat up the water for a normal cycle and some just use tap cold water. That is probably the biggest difference when you compare various FLs. And it is not typical TLs that use around 400 kWh, but just the energy star rated TLs. Our 5-year-old TL (Hotpoint) uses 798 kWH.

And yes, while FLs are already very water and energy efficient, the trend is going towards designing even more efficient machines. I agree with the previous posters who stated that the minimum limit is already reached and you can't reduce the amount of water and electricity used any more without compromising the washing or rinsing performance.

I don't know they can take into account heating up your domestic water with your own water heater. I don't believe TLs have internal heaters so in that sense TLs should use less electricity than FLs that have internal heaters. It should require additional watts when using an internal heater. My LG can heat the water to around 158 degrees so I'm not giving up hot water for energy efficiency.

Just comparing FLs --
Maytag epic (9700) uses 311 kwh. I believe the older Maytag FL used in the 400 range. Maytag TL Centennial uses 426.

Samsung FL uses 210 kwh. LG uses 167 kwh. Whirlpool Duet uses 178.

There is not a huge difference between the Maytag TL and FL. Maytags FL use a lot more electricity than other FL.

I don't know which of those FLs other than LG have an internal heater.

But my question is with FLs, where does it say that they have reduced the amount of water used in FLs. Are you saying that the 2006 FLs had more water than the 2007 FLs? On my LG I can select to use a higher water level.

On the energy labels on appliances they list the average annual electricity usage and the average cost for that electricity. On our TL label it says it would cost $64 with an electric water heater and $29 when operated with a gas water heater (based on average prices for gas and electricity of 1998). So you can clearly see that most of the electricity usage goes into heating up the water.

Most of the more expensive FLs have a water heater. That includes Bosch Nexxt, Whirlpool Duet HT, Maytag Epic, HE*t, LG, etc.
It is true that you'll use more electricity on warm or hot cycles than on cold cycles, but the same is true for a TL. They don't have heaters, but they need at least as much energy if they use 25 gallons of hot water from your water heater compared to a FL that heats up approx. 6 gallons of (hot) water to 150+ degrees.
No matter how you look at it, a FL will always be more energy and water efficient than a TL. You just have the added advantage of being able to do a truely hot wash when needed.

I attached a link to the energy star website. Maybe you are using an old one...it shows that the Maytag Epic 9700 uses 212 kWh. The Maytag that uses 311 kWh is an HE TL.

The manufacturers of FLs are trying to make the washers even more water and energy efficient. It is not required by the EPA, but they can use it for marketing their appliances as the most energy and water efficient ones. At some point this will have an influence on washing and rinsing performance. Some people who are allergic to detergents have made comments that they already have to use extra rinses to get rid of the detergent residue.
I remember the first FLs we had (almost 30 years ago) did use a lot more water than the newer ones. They did fill the drum more than half way full (above the window). They were not much more water efficient than traditional TLs. They continuously improved them over the decades to get to the point where they are now. I hope the engineers will soon realize that they can't reduce the water usage any more.

I have the GE Harmony, an HE TL, and I just love it. It uses less water than a traditional TL but you have the option to fill it up. The best way I've come up with to describe it is "a lot like a FL without the complaints associated with them".