skip to main content

Heating & Air Conditioning

Heat Pump vs Minisplit for Central VA

12 years ago

We are in the process of building a small kennel building 22 x 31 feet about 650 square feet. We are deciding between a Minisplit vs duct heat pump system - builder grade with propane backup. Is the Heat pump worth $3000 more? Would going with Trane or Carrier for $6000 be worth it?

Sort by:Oldest

Comments (9)

tigerdunes
12 years ago
Archie

The idea of propane would scare the heck out of me.

What is location?

What is electric rate? What is cost of propane?

At what outdoor temp would you want system to begin operation? What is your climate's average winter low temperature? How well will kennel be insulated?

Lots of questions I know.

IMO
arch123
Original Author
12 years ago
The Heat pump would be electric and the propane backup would only go on if it was really cold or in the event the power went out a generator could be connected to the fan. Should I be concerned about this system? I don't think this is comparing electric to propane because it will be mostly always electric. I would be interested in knowing if you think the Heat Pump (electric) would be cheaper to operate then the Minisplit. Also Do you think a Minisplit could handle this size adequetely - would I regret not having a duct system?
Related Discussions
Geothermal heat pump vs air source heat pump vs gas
Q
Comments (27)
Air source heat pumps don't make sense in areas where winter temps frequently fall below 32 degrees. Once you get below freezing, you will be running the auxillary heat a lot. If you decide to go the air source route, you will want a second stage gas fired auxillary heat. I live in the mid-atlantic region in the mountains and selected GT. That choice was coupled with a blown cellulose insulation package. My other choice was a propane heat/electric AC with a foam insulation package. Both options were roughly the same install cost. Both would have provided similar energy efficiency. At the time we selected, propane was 3.75 a gallon and rising (with no end in sight) so we went with GT. The delta cost for the GT system (above the cost for a HE propane heat and electric AC system) was $15,000 for the heat pumps and loop plumbing (including pumps) plus $17,000 for digging the pit. The pit excavation should not have cost as much as it did but it is a 12 ton system and the hole was gigantic (120' x 48' x 6'). We live on a mountain and hit a bunch of boulders that required special equipment to get out. Rocky soil also required a 1' base of stone dust to cover the loop piping. The total cost for the GT HVAC system including all ducting was $50,000 plus the pit excavation cost of 17K. It is a large investment and I would only recommend it if you plan to live in the house a very long time. My heating bills are great - maybe 300 dollars maximum a month during peak winter for an 8500 square foot home (5900 living and the rest a condiitoned but unfinished basement). Make sure that whatever equipment you choose can be maintained by more than 1 very qualified HVAC company who has many years of GT experience. In my area there is only 1 GT company who has over 20 years of experience but I am stuck with them for maintenance. There have been times when I wanted to fire them but cannot. Local competition is a good thing. Also - if you build a tight home make sure that you consider ventilation and dehumidification in the HVAC design. I wound up adding both a whole house dehumidifier and energy recovery vent after we moved in becuase we had basement moisture issues as well as stale air in the winter. Tight homes are great for energy efficiency but can create health issues too. It is easy to deal with as long as you plan for it. Good luck with the build.
...See More
Recommendations on Mini-Split Ductless Heat Pump for Garage
Q
Comments (6)
Differing opinions on mini split heatpumps but most would agree that Mitsubishi makes excellent equipment although it tends to be pricier than some other Japanese brands. Other Japanese brands...Fujitsu, Sharp, Panasonic and Daikin come to mind. Probably even more important than brand is making sure it will be installed by a reputable HVAC company familiar with that brand and that has been in business for many years and will be there in the future to assist in honoring any warranty issues and service calls. I'm surprised that your garage doesn't get significantly warmer or colder than the temperatures you reported. Would think when temps go down to the low 20's your garage wouldn't be as high as 60 degree. Is your garage door insulated? As inverter type mini splits can throttle back on their output I'd be inclined to purchase a 24,000 btu model that should easily handle your large garage when temps reach high 90's or low 20's outside. If in the dead of winter your garage really doesn't get below 60 degrees and in the heat of summer not above mid 80's you could probably get by with an 15,000 btu to 18,000 btu model.
...See More
Combining minisplit heat pump with radiant heat floors
Q
Comments (9)
Unfortunately gas is not available but I do have a 250lb propane tank and currently have an oil boiler with baseboard radiators. I purchased the home last year but will be doing extensive renovations in the upcoming year or two. It is a center staircase cape cod style home that will need the hardwoods and sub floor replaced in the front two rooms (~60% of first floor) due to a broken pipe while the previous owners owned the home and according to my contractor improper layout/thickness of subfloor. I was thinking of doing warmboard subfloor since everything is coming out anyways and a radiantec distribution system. Everything is in the planning stages but I want to save myself as much headache as possible. The house currently has no central A/C and I (and the REAL boss) am not a fan of typical mini split head units so we where going to use both ducted and cassette units where possible.
...See More
Renovating and heat pump/minisplit questions
Q
Comments (6)
tknx, are you on the bay side of the East Bay hills or inland? If the bay side and not too far north, your A/C capacity needs would be limited and you could probably make due with something of smaller size than would be spec'd for the same house in an inland East Bay valleys. With three stories, you'll do better even with just heating having at least two different systems, separated by floors. Is that what you have now or could the main ducts by floor be separated? Heat pumps aren't common in PG+E territory (except in rural areas without natural gas) because of our climate and historically high electricity rates. Even in rural areas, people often opt to go with propane for heating. With or without solar, the rarity of heat pumps means that local HVAC contractors don't have a lot of experience servicing them. Furnaces are cheap - if your solar installation is more than a few years away, I'd be tempted to have a furnace installed even with a heat pump. You can use that for primary heat until you're getting solar power. mike, on my last PG+E bill (the same as for tknx if they're in the Bay Area as I am), the lower of two tiers was 20 cents per kwh and the second tier was just under 28 cents. The so-called baseline lower tier is small (though would be bigger if electricity were the primary heat source). In the wintertime when my power use is lower, my own use is about 50% in each tier. In the summertime, it's more like 3 or 4 to 1 for the ratio of the upper tier to the higher tier. In California, solar power from home systems isn't "sold" back to the system. It's net metering measured over 12 months. If your usage over the period exceeds your production, you get a bill. If your production exceeds your usage, you get a thank you notice and that's it.
...See More
tigerdunes
12 years ago
Archie

I would need to know your rates-both electric and propane to be able to make an informed decision.

If kennel will be insulated with above average properties, I would think all electric would be OK.

What temperature setting for kennel are you looking at?

IMO
arch123
Original Author
12 years ago
The temperatures would be higher 60s in the winter and higher 80s in the summer.
weedmeister
12 years ago
The minisplits I've seen are usually more efficient than a 'normal' air-source heat pump. Also, they should be simpler to install (no duct work). They also produce heat down to lower temperatures.

But it is not clear to me in this case how long it would take to make back the money in electrical usage savings.

Since this is a kennel, would the duct work be exposed and inside the insulation envelope (easier installation)?
david_cary
12 years ago
Your electric rates have to be pretty high to justify propane backup. Like CA high. If a minisplit is cheaper, that would seem to be the way to go. A minisplit is just a type of heat pump. It's setup has some issues in a house with rooms, if you want dual fuel, or if you need humidity. But for what you want, it would seem to be fine.

I would think a cheaper heatpump would make the most sense. If you insulate well enough, there might not be much need for heat the majority of the time. When you say kennel, I am envisioning a number of dogs. Dogs aren't that picky and they generate a decent amount of heat.
PRO
CJ Mechanical of North jersey llc.
12 years ago
This allso requires care with selecting a good filtration with all the hair in the air.
arch123
Original Author
12 years ago
Thanks for the information. The building is insulated. One concern I have is that the bottom 42" of wall is going to be a page cement block. It's the only thing I can think of that the dogs will not be able to chew up. If it becomes a real heat loss problem I will go back and insulate on the interior. The dog doors I am using are Endura I am really impressed with how well they seal.
I had considered a radiant floor, but I learned that it was not a good idea for dogs because they cannot get away from the heat.
ionized_gw
12 years ago
If this is one big, open room, there is not much difference between the operation of a minisplit and "regular" split unit. It is a good point about the added filtration options available with a regular unit. There are minisplits to fit large areas. OTOH, the duct work for a more conventional system would be pretty easy if it is out in the open.

One thing that I notice about my minisplits is that they are good ceiling heaters with their standard programming. As they approach the set point the blower slows down and the hot air does not project to the floor. Manually setting the blower to a higher speed fixes that and so does using a ceiling fan.

It is not absolutely clear to me. You need heat only and not cooling? If so, I am not sure why you discounted radiant heat so easily. If you install some simple raised pallets of some sort, the dogs can lie on them if they need a cooler spot to lie down. If you need cooling, it would be more expensive as you would need to install a second system for that.

Related Stories

FLOORS Floors Warm Up to Radiant Heat

By Lindsey M. Roberts

Toasty toes and money saved are just two benefits of radiant heat under your concrete, wood or tile floors

DECORATING GUIDES 10 Ways to Hide That Air Conditioner

By Mariana Pickering (Emu Building Science)

Feeling boxed in designing around your mini-split air conditioner? Try one of these clever disguises and distractions

GARDENING FOR BUTTERFLIES 3 Ways Native Plants Make Gardening So Much Better

By Benjamin Vogt / Monarch Gardens

You probably know about the lower maintenance. But native plants' other benefits go far beyond a little less watering and weeding

FIREPLACES Updated Woodstoves Keep Home Fires Burning

By Eric Reinholdt, Architect

Better technology means more efficiency than ever for modern woodstoves

LANDSCAPE DESIGN Natural Swimming Pools: More Beauty, No Chemicals

By Falon Mihalic

Keep your skin and the environment healthy with a pool that cleans itself, naturally

GREEN BUILDING Let’s Clear Up Some Confusion About Solar Panels

By Mariana Pickering (Emu Building Science)

Different panel types do different things. If you want solar energy for your home, get the basics here first

DISASTER PREP & RECOVERY More Power to You: How to Pick the Right Generator

By Marianne Lipanovich

If your home's electricity goes, don't let it take your necessities with it — keep systems running with this guide to backup power

GREEN BUILDING The Passive House: What It Is and Why You Should Care

By Mariana Pickering (Emu Building Science)

If you don’t understand passive design, you could be throwing money out the window

MOST POPULAR 5 Ways to Hide That Big Air Conditioner in Your Yard

By Mariana Pickering (Emu Building Science)

Don’t sweat that boxy A/C unit. Here’s how to place it out of sight and out of mind

ACCESSORIES Everyday Home Must-Haves Beg for a Makeover

By Vanessa Brunner

The Nest's much-improved take on the thermostat has us pondering reinventions of other necessities around the house

Sponsored

More Discussions

Mount range hood to wall or ceiling?

19

Overamping and hard start kits

31

HVAC Covered in Ice

10

humidifier for a furnace in a closet

0

Replace rusted swamp cooler panels with aluminum sheeting?

2