Need Help with Basics: Oil vs. Propane, Radiant vs. Hot Water

14 years ago

We need help finding the right forest: oil vs. propane, radiant vs. hot water.

We aren't even at the point of better vs. best of anything: boiler, hot water tank(less).

We live in central Massachusetts. We are dismantling half the house. It was a fixer-upper that we need to whittle down to a size we can afford to fix up and maintain. We are in our 60's. The part we will be left with will be 24 x 30 (720 sq. ft.) on one floor. We will add a laundry/mudroom 10 x 12 for a total of 840 sq. ft. Part of the house has basement, part crawl space.

Right now there is forced hot water with a 30 year old Italian (Riello) oil burner. It heats the water from a storage tank (well water). Water is acidic and hard.

We don't have access to natural gas. Electric is expensive. Air pumps don't seem to function well in our environment. So our choices are propane (we'd bury a tank) and oil. When we look at the Massachusetts government site which posts the cost of propane and oil, they look to be running about the same. (Though I don't know if the units are comparable.)

We will put in an induction cooktop and electric oven so kitchen appliances don't factor in.

We need to replace the floors so radiant heat is an option.

I am home all day and need to keep the house very wam (72) because I am ill and have trouble with my body temperature.

Our goal is to get the house very efficient so going forward our expenses will be a little as possible, given that geothermal and solar are beyond our means and payback time.

Did I cover everything?

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Comments (7)

paulbm
14 years ago
Oil or LP gas, Oil has about 140,000 BTU of heat per gal.
LP depending on the value of it in your area has about 96,000 to 98,000 BTU per gal. In your case i would go LP 95% furnace in the basement, and then get a eff. hot water heater. I think the 95% hot air would have less problems than the oil. The 95 % furnace can get you the tax rebate. and you can get 10 yrs. on parts and labor for just a small cost. Just my opinion.
Paulbm
garyg
14 years ago
Cost of heating fuels?

What is your cost of oil, $ per gallon?

Of propane, $ per gallon?

Electricity, cents per kw-hr?
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I searched GW for this topic, read through pages and pages of threads and I'm still confused. I don't understand the technical talk on the debates for each side and need to decide ASAP what's best for our house. Just when I think I have a decision made, I read something that changes it. From what I'm gathering, many people like tanks because they're simple, easy to repair if needed, and less expensive upfront. People dislike them because they take up a lot of space and can run out of hot water when people are using hot water simultaneously. People seem to like tankless water heaters because the hot water is unlimited, they take up less space, and are the "future" of water heaters. They seem to dislike them because they're more expensive, are complicated to fix, and don't always work out the way people expected them to or how they're used to using a WH. We live in E. Tennessee where the climate is moderate but we tend to have ice storms that cause power outages in winter. We are a family of 4-two adults, a teenager, and a baby. We have relatives come visit often and may soon have a family member or 2 staying with us for an extended period. We have 3 bathrooms with plumbing roughed in for 1 more in the basement. Basement is unfinished but has a large designated mechanical room so space is not an issue. We have a propane tank for the cooktop which is large enough to also use for a WH. Our GC suggested a good ole large capacity tanked electric WH. I trust him but I also realize that he's been doing this for 40 years and he goes with what he knows and trusts. He said if we went tankless we should go propane instead of electric because of how much power it would use. He mentioned putting something under the sink of the 2nd floor bathroom to help the hot water heater distribute water faster/more efficiently from the basement upstairs. He didn't use a name for it but I'm thinking maybe he was talking about a circulator? Anyway, any input would be greatly appreciated!! Need to buy soon so we can move in.
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fsq4cw
14 years ago
I canÂt imagine why air-source heat pumps wouldnÂt work well in your area. I would think that forced air with an air-source heat pump and a propane furnace for back-up might be your best bet.

SR
djdoggone
Original Author
14 years ago
garyg;

We just paid $2.65/gal for a delivery of oil.

These are the Mass gov prices for home heating oil for this week, going back to 1995, so our oilman, as always, is mid-pack.

For November 24:
2009 average price: 2.73 (high: 3.30, low: 2.31)
2008: 2.64 / 2007: 3.26 / 2006: 2.34 / 2005: 2.34 / 2004: 1.99 / 2003: 1.36 / 2002: 1.25 / 2001: 1.11 / 2000: 1.54 / 1999: 1.09 / 1998: 0.79 / 1997: 0.95 / 1996: 1.15 / 1995: 0.95

These are this week's propane prices (often they run higher than oil, and I understand that price seems to be commensurate with use; the more used, the lower the price - I hope we will use little):

For November 24:
2009 average price: 2.57 (high: 4.11, low: 1.93)
2008: 2.74 / 2007 2.74 / 2006: 2.24 / 2005: 2.29 / 2004: 1.85 / 2003: 1.49 / 2002: 1.37 / 2001: 1.32 / 2000: 1.49 / 1999: 1.22 / 1998: 1.17 / 1997: 1.25 / 1996: 1.46 / 1995: 1.17

Can only find one reference to btu's and that was a general comment = 92,000 btu for propane for Northeast

We pay 14.6 cents/kWh for electric.

Thanks, Deb
tigerdunes
14 years ago
djdoggone

do a close analysis of various fuel options first and their comparative cost.

see link below for fuel calculator which is a useful tool. you do need to know your efficiency for cost comparison.

IMO

Here is a link that might be useful: Fuel Comparison Calculator
garyg
14 years ago
Deb:

Compare the cost of 1 million btu's of heat.

I'll use your average costs.

Oil at $2.73/gallon, 80% efficient furnace (your old oil furnace may be less efficient):
(1,000,000 / 139,000 btu per gallon) x 2.73 / .8
= $24.55

Propane at $2.57 per gallon, 80% efficient furnace:
(1,000,000 / 91,000 btu per gallon) x 2.57 / .8
= $35.30

Propane, 95% efficient furnace
= $29.72

Heat pump w/electricity at $.15 per kw-hr delivered, C.O.P. = 3.25 at 35F ambient:
(1,000,000 / 3414 btu per kw-hr) x .15 / 3.25
= $13.51

Straight electric resistance heat:
= $13.51 x 3.25 = $43.90

The heat pump produces the same 1 million btu's of heat at more than half the cost of the 95% efficient propane furnace, and almost half the cost of the 80% oil furnace.

Note that the cost of a heat pump defrost cycle is not included in the above calculation.

As ambient temps increase from the 35F example, the C.O.P. increases, and the heat pump is even cheaper to run.

The C.O.P. was taken from my 3-ton 14 SEER / 9 HSPF Goodman heat pump at 35F ambient.

The heat pump needs auxiliary heat for when the ambient temps fall below the balance point of the home. That aux heat can be a propane furnace, oil furnace, or resistance electric strips.

Using the heat pump as primary heating, with a gas/oil/propane furnace as auxiliary heat is called a dual-fuel system. These systems have a lot of advantages.

Take care.
djdoggone
Original Author
14 years ago
garyg: Thanks for doing all the math!

Need Help with Basics: Oil vs. Propane, Radiant vs. Hot Water

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paulbm

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