Firstly, a Manual J heat gain/loss calculation has to be done on the house to size the equipment. You need a copy of this in writing. Same thing with a Manual D - duct design.

Additional:

- There is no furnace size, model#, or btu rating specified.
- You need model#s of the condensing unit (outdoor unit) and air handler (indoor unit).

If you don't get the above 2 items, you are setting yourself up for either the "bait and switch" or other problems down the road from lack of info on the quote.

- In your climate, you should consider a heat pump with natural gas back-up instead of straight a/c and a gas furnace as your primary heating source. What are your electric rates?
- Goodman does not make a 15 SEER unit. The GSH014 heat pump with variable speed air handler and TXV (thermostatic expansion valve) to regulate refrigerant to the evap coil makes a 15 SEER system from a 14 SEER system.
- Make sure that you get the TXV - it is optional and does not come with the air handler. It is mounted externally to the air handler. The air handler is supplied with a piston flowrater expansion device.
- Goodman's filter rack for their air handlers are poorly designed. Get a 4-inch separate media filter cabinet to avoid the aggravation of changing a filter.

garyg, thanks for the reply. I emailed him and asked for all of the about info that you requested and here is his response:

the load calculation was based on square footage and average BTU/Ton calculation. This was just to get a size for bidding purposes. I do a load calculation based on man. J software just before I order the equipment. By that time I usually know more about the house, eg. location, orientation, shade trees, etc. (about 95% of the time, I come up with the same size equipment)
For the duct design, we use a standard ductulator slide rule. This tells us the size duct required based on amount of CFM per room. We use 1.5" ductboard plenums with R6 fiberglass flex ducts to each room. This allows us to be very flexible with the framing of the house.
The quoted furnace is a Goodman GHS8 that has a 10 year parts warranty and a lifetime heat exchanger warranty. 90,000 BTUH.
The condenser is a GSC14. It has a 10 yr parts warranty and is rated at 14 SEER.
If we can upgrade the equipment to a 15 or 16 SEER Amana system like I had told you about earlier,the model numbers will be different and the warranties will be either the same or longer based on whats available at the time. Also the Amana units come with the TXV factory installed. If we have to install it, it runs about $120-150 more.
The mechanical permit will have to be pulled by us. So we will take care of that with the city.
As far as payment, on new construction we ask for half down, then 50% of the balance on completion of rough-in inspection and the balance when the unit is fully completed and you are satisfied completely.

What do you guys think? Any advice would be helpful
Thanks!

How cold does it get in San Antonio, Texas?

What are your electric rates ($ per kw-hour)?

The answers to the above may lead you in the direction of a heat pump with or without gas back-up.

"We use 1.5" ductboard plenums...."
- Hopefully, this is a typo and he meant 15".

The a/c unit is not sized - GSC14036. The "036" means 3 tons. The system is only a 14 SEER if it is matched with the right air handler and a TXV. I have seen Goodmans mismatched. What is the model# of the air handler? $150 installed for a TXV - they cost less than $50 so the rest is his mark-up. Agree that Amana has a TXV installed but a model# will verify that.

4" media filter? Goodman's standard 1" filter rack sucks.

PARTS AND LABOR warranty?

It occasionally gets to 20F in San Antonio, all time low is around
0F.

Breaking,

I would not have an air handler or a furnace without a var spd blower.

I question the size of the AC condenser. What size do you have now?

You should request a load calc both heating and cooling.

Just a few ideas.

IMO

I missed the 4-ton. Sorry.

Still need model# of air handler to determine if it is matched and if it is variable speed or multi-speed.

All installers will use the warranty as part of their sales approach. 10 years on parts and 20 on the heat exchanger is a decent warranty, but it begs the question: If the manufacturers feel confident their equipment will perform for that time, then why don't the installers feel confident enough to give an installation warranty for a year. If you get one of these, you can be sure the installer will do the best job possible cause he does not want to come back to give you a free service call. So ask for an installation warranty. Parts are made overseas and are cheap for the wholesaler. Its the labor where the money is made. A complete HVAC system or heatpump will perform well, if quality goes into the installation.

The contractor asked you to get the building permit??? Am not from Texas but from the talk over at another chat room you have to be a licensed hvac contractor in Texas. Maybe this person is unlicensed and that's why they are asking you get the permit.

Hello everyone and thanks for helping me thru this! mechacc1, he will actually be pulling the permits, he is licensed. I also asked about the part number for the air handler and he stated it was the same as the furnace. (?) (Wouldnt it still have it's own part number or is that normal??)

He also stated the ducting would be 1.5" ductboard for the supply plenum, I know Garyg, mentioned that maybe he meant 15". What would be the downfall of okaying the 1.5" ? Whats the differance?

I wish I could tell you what the $ per kw-hour is but I have no idea. This will be our first home and I've never even seen an electric bill before :( As far we know it though, we will very rarely use the furnace. Here in south Texas, the winters are pretty mild. We maybe have 5 to 10 days of cold weather (under 30F). For the most part we stay at about 45 and 55 degrees. With that said, we will get lots of use out of our A/C though.

Also, he stated it would be 1 year labor warranty, is that pretty standard or can I do better?

Any opinions and suggestions would be greatly appreciated!!
Thanks!

I think the contractor was telling you the ductboard thickness and garyg was talking
about the plenum opening.

HTH
Chris

I hate to sound harsh (and I am sorry if it sounds this way), but here it goes:

- You have nothing in writing from this contractor as far as model#s (complete, not partial). Why not?

- You don't know your utlity rates. How can you make an educated decision on your cooling and heating system if you don't know your rates? Can't you just call the utiliy and ask?

- If the winters are mild, why not just get a heat pump? A heat pump is just a central a/c unit with a reversing valve. With your mild winters, it sounds like you don't need the gas furnace at all. You can't make this choice without knowing your utility rates.

- The furnace is an 80% gas with a fixed speed blower. GHS8 is only the first 4 digits of the model#. GSC14 is only the first 5 digits of the condenser#. The a/c coil should have it's own part# - how would they know otherwise what size coil to put in to match with the 4 ton condenser?

- Are you getting a TXV. You need one with Goodman especially if you use the a/c a lot and want the best efficiency possible. What is the part#?

- What happenned to the possibility of Amana?

- Are you getting a 4' media filter? What is the part#?

- It sounds like you have no new info and are a little gun-shy dealing with your HVAC guy - don't be - this is your house and your $7k!!

Here is a link that might be useful: Goodman's website

Have you gotten any other quotes from HVAC contractors? I bet not.

I did some digging. A gas furnace model# GSH8070 or GSH8090 is an 80% gas furnace that puts out either 70,000 btu or 90,000 btu of heat (depends on model#) that has an a/c coil whose tonnage is dependent on air handler speed. Low speed is 3 tons, medium is 4 tons, and high is 5 tons of cooling. The a/c is almost an afterthought. This is the wrong system for your new Texas home. Probably doesn't matter that that outside unit is a 14 SEER.

You need more bids. Your a/c is what is important, not the gas furnace. No wonder why there was no info on his bid and he e-mailed it to you. That should have sounded the warning signal.

Good luck.

garyg, thanks for the info. I am feeling pretty iffy about this guy so I am going to await other bids. I had a few other responses from HVAC companies but a lot of them wanted to charge me $85+ for a bid due to having to make the load calculations and such. Should I go ahead and fork over the money to them or wait on the other contractors to get back with their "free" bids? I will also be on the phone with the electric company in the morning to figure out what the going rate is.
Thanks again!
Miriam

Miriam:

I was (slightly) wrong in my post above. The gas furnace requires a separate 4-ton matched cased a/c coil from Goodman. There is indeed a part# associated with the coil and should begin with the letters CA*F. The coil must be a match to the condensing unit.

You should get as many bids as you feel comfortable with. The $85 fee should be included in the total price if you go with that company. The more bids you get, the more educated you become (and possibly confused but that is part of the learning experience). You should also ask these companies about heat pumps in your climate.

Finding a competent company who does a quality install is critical. The intallation is more important than the system manufacturer.

Post model#s of the condenser (outside unit), air handler, and furnace (if you decide to go that route) and I will verify sizing and performance info for you.

When you contact the electric company, ask for not only the generating cost but the transmission costs as well. You want the total cost delivered to your home, same with gas.

Best to you.

What is missing is a quality product. Goodman sucks, it's the cheepest of the cheep. You will get what you pay for. Call your Carrier, Trane, Lennox dealers for a quote. You are buying a system that will be with you for the next 20-years. Lowest price is not everything.

Good Luck

Stu

Bonanza
"You are buying a system that will be with you for the next 20-years".
I really don't think this is the case. Most folks want an AC or heater that blows cold in the summer and hot in the winter and they want it cheap. The average length a homeowner stays in a particular home is around 7 years and I believe that survey was compiled 5 or 6 years ago and it's probably less time now. And where I live (Houston Texas) you could BS to a buyer till the world turned square about how efficient your new 10,000 dollar variable speed high SEER system is and it might help sell your house but not for anymore. At least that's my take on it and it bring me to the reason why I think people like "garyg" read and learn and install there own. Not to just save money but to know they have a sytem that is installed correct and is doing as intended. Goodman ain't junk, it's just cheap.

"What is missing is a quality product. Goodman sucks, it's the cheepest of the cheep. You will get what you pay for. Call your Carrier, Trane, Lennox dealers for a quote."

- Hummm. Brand bashing. Have you seen Goodman lately? Much improved quality from years ago. Similar to Hyundai autos where they start out inexpensive but with quality problems then improve the quality and offer an outstanding warranty.

My Goodman GSH heat pump has a Copeland scroll compressor (industry preferred) and a 10 year all parts warranty. Some of the brands you mentioned have only a 5 year parts warranty on some models.

A good installation (including proper refrigerant evacuation and charging) and proper ductwork is usually more imprortant than brand.

Goodman isn't for everyone, but your statement is just plain ignorant.

Take care.

breakingground08

You can go to www.powertochoose.org and fill in the blanks and decide who YOU want as your electric provider. I was paying 15.6 cents with Reliant and now pay 10.9 cents in Houston. I pay 10.8 cents on my other home in South Texas around Corpus Christi.

........- Hummm. Brand bashing. Have you seen Goodman lately? Much improved quality from years ago. Similar to Hyundai autos where they start out inexpensive but with quality problems then improve the quality and offer an outstanding warranty.
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Say what you want, Goodman is a poorly constructed product. The warranty is worthless. I see this stuff installed by weekend wanabees that don't know their butt from first base. They oversize, install poorly sized ducts that leak, and have no idea of what building codes are applicable to the installation. Goodman will sell their product to anyone with the $$. Home owners think they are saving a lot of money over the local contractor until the system screws up and they cannot get the cheep installers back to correct the problems. Folks like you don't want to pay for a quality installation by technicians that are NATE certified, that make a decent living with some benefits. All the things that you would want in a job. That great warranty you claim is only good to the original purchaser so the claims must be made through the guy you can't locate. Your local contractor has overhead, pays his taxes, pays his disability insurance, puts gas in his trucks has been schooled by the manufacturer of the equipment he sells. Then you will call him to fix a piece of equipment that should not have been installed for the application. Then complain about the bill.

Buying an HVAC system is not like buying a car. It's like buying the parts and having the car assembled. Joe Sixpack does not have the skills or knowledge the to do a decent job. Why do you think you cannot buy a Lennox, Carrier & other manufacturers system? They do not want to have some ham fisted person installing their equipment. You can purchase installed systems from these manufacturers for much less than $10k. You will have an enforcable warranty by someone you can locate.

I read in these postings; How cheep can this be done, am I getting screwed, should replace the line set, R-22 will be here forever, should I go bigger etc. etc. My advise, call a few contractors, check with the BBB to be sure they have a good history. Listen to what they have to say. A BS artist will stand out because his story will not be similar to the rest of the contractors. Most of all listen to what they have to say. A good contractor will not quote over the phone. You are correct about attention to details during installation.

A Manual J MUST be done prior to installation. Don't rely on what is presently installed. Who knows if the last guy knew what he was doing. Bigger is not better when it comes to air conditioning. A guy that complains his system is not doing the job most likely has not had the system checked, the ductwork evaluated, knows where the return is being drawn from. Spend a few bucks, have a BPI certified contractor do a Blower door test along with a duct blaster test. Find out how leaky your house is, where the insulation is poor, how leaky is the duct system. Air sealing the house to acceptable standards can make a huge difference in how the house "works". All this stuff can reduce your cooling and heating costs and possibly reduce the size of the a/c and heating system rather than just going bigger.

This is why they are called Heating & Cooling Specialists and get more money for a job than Joe Bagadonuts. Quality costs and you will get what you pay for. There is never something for nothing.

Stu:

You're original post was that Goodman was cheap crap and that is your opinion. Your next post states that Goodman sells to anyone and can be installed by hacks or homeowners. I agree. My Goodman was installed by a pro (this is required for the 10 year parts warranty from Goodman). I decided what I wanted in the system and paid a pro for the install. It worked out great. Total price was $3700. As for the 10 year parts warranty only for the original homeowner - good, that's me. I'm happy with that. The parts warranty is backed by the supplier that I bought the system from: an A1 rated supplier on Goodman's website, not an internet seller. Maybe the Goodman works out fine, maybe it doesn't. I took a chance, and I'll see how it goes.

As far as buying from "Heating and Cooling Specialists", they're not all professional and honest, and you do indeed state that fact. Most are OK, some are not. I cold-busted one company trying to sell a co-worker an old 10 SEER system while trying to say it was a new 13 SEER. Another company mis-matched my neighbor's Goodman v-s air handler with the heat pump condenser. These are pros. Buyer beware.

I agree with a lot of what you said, disagree on some things and posted why.

As far as debating Goodman's quality, go to www.HVAC-Talk.com, a pro forum, where this topic has been beat to death extensively.

Take care.

We have this great website here in Texas. I recommend anyone in Texas who is thinking about getting some A/C & heating work take a few minutes and look it over. It lists all current a/c licensed tech's in Texas and any violations they might have had. I am listed in there as well. Its a quick way to make 100% sure your dealing with a licensed & insured company.

http://www.license.state.tx.us/

Stu,
Garyg's reply caught my interest. I had a certified dealer install a complete heating and ac system by Bryant. But after 5 weeks, I noticed that the system was not removing moisture in low speed compressor as per the brochures statements. It only removed sufficient moisture if I forced the compressor into high speed. I had two service technicians come and check the system and both said the system is running ok by them. This went on for two seasons of summer heat and finally I got fed up with their diagnosis and went directly to the field manager for "Bryant" and after explaining everything; he agreed that something was wrong with the installation. When he and the installing dealer's technician came to check again, they said that a TXV should have been installed. Now with the TXV installed, my system's air conditioning is running the way it should and removing excess moisture. Now this business has over 30 years experience and I have no idea why they screwed up. Just before repairs were made, I went to their office to show my displeasure over their lack of interest in throughly checking every aspect of the installation and they kept insisting that the equipment was running ok and they said they could do no more. When I contacted the "Bryant" field manager, I told him that I believe the installing dealer lacks proper trouble shooting experience.
So if anyone is dissatisfied with their service company, they should contact the manufacturer's field manager for their area to have them come out to inspect the dealers installation. So not all Pro's are Pro's.

All pros are not Pros, that is why I said to check with the BBB, don't go with one bid talk to several contractors, ask for references. Don't use the guy that does installations "on the side". He may be great but chances he will do a poor installation.

You can always find some one with a bad story. Research who you are going to give your money to. Buying an HVAC system is not like buying a car. Installation is 75% of the job. The cheap guy is not giving you something the expensive guy is. You will always get what you pay for.

Stu!!!

I think you've missed the point ---totally! Purchasing a HVAC "IS" like buying a car. You can go to 10 different dealerships and look at the same exact car and I mean "same exact" and get 10 different prices and the prices will vary a ton. Half of the 10 will try and talk you into something else other than what you want because they know exactly what you want.
I've found that if a HVAC tech is his own boss and works for himself and does honest work for an honest price, he will be swamped with work. He's usually cheap also. Because he's not spending a fortune for yellow page ads and employees.

Lot's of good and bad info here.
First, a BBB recommendation means absolutely nothing.
Not that there's anything wrong with being a member of BBB.
It simply does not indicate whether a business is or isn't ethical.
I have been in business a long time and have held a contractors license for a good time and I've never had a complaint lodged against my license by a customer and I've never been associated with BBB or any other entity that requires money to join in an effort to project legitimacy.

Second, any product is only as good as the installing contractor. "Product dumping" simply makes those who do it look ignorant. Any mfgrs. product will meet it's requirements if it's installed correctly and commissioned by a competent and trained professional.

Third, any equipment can be purchased online...not just Goodman.

After reading these pissing matches, small wonder why potential customers cast a wary eye at us HVAC Contractors.

If you think just placing a furnace on the floor and making it run is installation, you are sadly mistaken. I have seen so may screwed-up "installations", that were a good deal, it would make you cry. A BBB endorsement is not gold but an indicator. That is why I said talk to a few contractors and do not let the cost play a major factor in your decision. The internet if full of sites making recommendations as to what you should expect a contractor to do in sizing and installing a system, pay attention and read, you are spending a lot of money. You will always get what you pay for. There ain't no free lunch.

I read this site and am impressed with some information and scared with others. Someone will always have a horror story. But who is really to blame? I have prospects that will demand specific sizes for HVAC equipment. If my calculations agree with his demand I will bid. Otherwise I walk away. The guy that will not listen to experience (30 years), because he spent a week on the internet, is not my customer. I'm in the business to make money not marry some moron.

I bash Goodman because it is not good quality equipment. For only a few dollars more there is very acceptable stuff on the market. Not the most efficient but the cabinets do not leak and the cabinets are made of primed, reasonable gauge, steel. If there is a way to cut a corner Goodman will do it. It's cheep and thrifty folk defend it for what ever reason. It's not for me and my customers deserve better. You cannot build a reputation screwing people.