You are correct about cold-water-connection machines but you've missed a few things in your other considerations. Among the American market machines only the Bosch/Siemens guarantees temperatures on every cycle. Others typically have two cycles in addition to "sanitary" that will heat water. "Sanitary" settings generally will heat to 155-160F and those cycles do, indeed, take longer -- typically 2 hours or so. However, other cycles that heat to nominal 125-130F take much less. For example the "whitest whites" cycle on my Duet 9400 (heats to 127F nominal) takes about 1 hour if I add an extra rinse. Other machines are similar.

Perhaps more to the point, NONE of these machines will give you a truly hot wash UNLESS the heater is engaged. For example, with my Duet, when set on "hot" but with a cycle chosen that does not engage the heater; with a full load of clothes and the machine at ambient 78F; with 130F water entering the machine from the first drop, the actual wash temperature in the drum is between 100-105F. That's how much heat is taken from the water by the mass of the clothes and the metal of the drum. With the low-fill-volume of these new HE machines, there's no way to get it hotter unless the built-in heater is engaged -- even if your hot-water tank is right next to the machine. For those people who don't want/need a truly hot wash -- ever -- this is not an issue. For those that do, a built-in heater is needed to deliver it.

I have a question about internal water heaters and water hardness. We have very hard water at our place, we never bothered with installing a water softener, but now that we are in the market for a new washer we are thinking that maybe we need a water softener. What do you guys think, will having a water softener increase the live span of internal water heater, or should we forget about the whole idea? I'm especially interested in responses from people who have experience with Bosch machines

Thanks.

The Duet is too large for the space I have available, and it's also twice as costly as the Frigidaire. I don't know how either fares as to life expectancy. The heat boost must be quite temporary once the tumble action begins.

Seems the only way to "wash in hot water" is to start with hot water and keep heating the load as it washes: Set your kettle 'o wash over a fire, add lye soap and stir. Since people haven't been doing that for many years, have we all had "dirty" clothes? Perhaps modern detergents helped?

Sorry, no Bosch, but do have soft water. Highly recommended. However, you'll have to cut product usage typically by half to three-quarters depending on what you are accustomed to use with whatever the hardness of your existing supply may be. My supply is varies 6-8 grains -- zero with the softener. I use about 1/3 cup of Tide HE powder for a full load in my Duet which is similar capacity to Bosch/Siemens. 1/4 cup if lightly-soiled. Soft water cleans better with less and leaves fabrics softer-feeling.

Unless you have unusually hard water, I wouldn't expect a softener to extend the life of any appliance. It is a convenience/luxury that many people prefer. I certainly do. I like showing with it. Wonderful shampoos. Considerable savings in detergent use with laundry and dishwashing. In my carpet machine, I cut product use by 2/3 also.

Start by learning the actual hardness of your present water. Would suggest independent test for this. Sellers of systems will do this easy test for you but then will try to sell you. One step at a time.

FWIW I've had a Kinetico system in two locations for 15 years. Just refurbished both but no maintenance required in the interim. Recommend without hesitation.

chisue...reliability remains an unknown with these new machines at this early date. I've had mine for two years with zero problems -- all I can say about that.

The machine will maintain the temperature during the wash cycle. Duration can be extended by pushing a button.

If you don't care what temperature you're washing at, certainly you may ignore everything I've said. Most people don't know (have never known) and don't care. Whatever they set on the dial is what it is because it says so. Just trying to be helpful.

Modern detergents are superior to what came before.

About water softeners....there is considerable discussion about this on the plumbing forum.

chisue...I am a little lost here. Are you looking for a heater to have your wash super hot? On the LG 2487 the heater always engages even on warm water setting. As mentioned w/the mass, stainless drum, and clothes the water would never be warm, it would in fact be cold. I try to preserve the heater from running all the time by selectively selecting (lol) the cold water rinse to keep the heater from engaging during the rinse cycle.

luvmylg -- I've given up on buying a machine with an internal heater because:

1) In 42 years of marriage I've managed fine without super-hot wash water and,

2) Only the very expensive Miele, etc. washers will a) heat the water quickly and b) maintain hot water temps during the wash cycle.

All the non-European brands I saw take an hour to heat the water and fail to keep the water at hot temps during the wash.

chisue....look at this post http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/laundry/msg0521325413999.html?75
apparently even the MIGHTY miele does not heat the water on normal cycles! But if a heater is not needed for you than so be it. I hope you enjoy whatever you purchase. Have a good one.

Chisue...believe you are mistaken on two points.

The 220v European machines do heat faster. 110v machnines do take longer to heat the water.

Bosch/Siemens models will heat/maintain in every cycle. Other brands will maintain temps during the cycles where heater is engaged.

Don't quite get the "super-hot" idea you keep bringing up. 120-130F, in my opinion, is not "super-hot", just "normal-hot". "Sanitary" settings that boost to 150-160F and above would be in the "super-hot" realm, perhaps. I seldom use that. However "normal" hot is indespensible in my opinion and the only way to get that in the new HE low-fill-volume machines is to get one with a heater.

If you NEVER need/want wash temps above 105F or so, you don't need a heater. Only suggesting you know what you're getting and are comfortable with it.

Thanks for following along on my quest! LOL

I'm thinking that if I have survived this long using only water from the house water heater, I'm probably OK with a washer without its own internal heater.

Our first washer was a FL washer/dryer combo because we had limited space and were limited to electric models. It washed fine. It was still washing fine when our son came along, but with a baby...you need more capacity. The Maytag TL and dryer I bought washed "OK" and lasted 30 years. The TL Whirlpools that replaced that set washed less than "OK". The now defunct Frigidaire FL washed fine until it died. All of these produced clean-enough clothes.

I've concluded that while some may love to wash in hotter water, it isn't necessary (for me). Maybe I'll be back, crying that my clothes aren't clean enough! Maybe you'll see me hiding my face in shame as my DH points to his dingy underwear on a TV commercial! (I almost said "ring around the collar" but we do have commercial laundries and THEY get shirts clean. Sosmetimes we even get back the ones we send them.)

Yeah, I can hardly believe I do as much of this as I do. Should probably get a life one of these days.

Throughout my life it has alway amazed me how things we never had before and did just fine without quickly become must-have options. However, as with this computer perhaps, I wouldn't care to do without. Different world that way -- and better, IMHO.

As you noted, the FL heater machines tend to be quite expensive and not all expensive machines use the heater except for sanitary, etc. If I could (or would not) get a heater, I would have a hard time justifying spending over $600 for a no heater or a limited use heater washer

So buying a functional $600 washers with no extended warranty (save that for you second machine) actually makes some sense. I considered it before I stepped up to the Miele machines. The other machines just did not seem worth their $1000-1600 price points.

Try to make sure it has an ATC to blend H/C taps, so that way during the winter (depending on your hot water run), warm will be at least cold, and hot will be at least warm.

"...warm will be at least cold, and hot will be at least warm."

That's about it -- depending on what your tap-cold temp is and how long your pipes are. Clever and accurate condensation!

What I'm getting at, of course, is that ATC doesn't work worth a nickel on low-fill-volume machines. I don't know why they even list it as a "feature". Deceptive, IMHO.

I posted on this issue a few a months back.

Chisue is starting off with bad facts. The Miele will actually heat SLOWER not faster than most American machines with heaters.

I lived in europe for almost ten years. As asolo mentioned the voltage in Europe is 220. Stand alone and internal hot water heaters tend to heat about three times faster.

Also the price issue is not that big. I bought this morning for my mom a he2t with heater for $680 at sears.

$680 for the HE2t is a great price (I paid about $800 8 months ago), but I don't even see it on the Sears website. Is it a closeout item?

Please 'splain about the HE2t internal heater. How long does it take to heat the water for a high temp wash? The US-made models I saw took an additional HOUR to heat the water for the "sanitize" cycle. The Miele did not.

I'm guessing that the cheaper washers have something akin to immersion heaters while the Miele has a smaller version of the stand alone tankless hot water heaters.

Far as I've heard, a 120v heater typically produces a temp rise of about 1°F per minute. The exact heating time depends on what is the starting temp.

New Frigidaire FL arrived yesterday. Happy to report that the "Hot" wash is satisfactory drawing from the house hot water supply.

I was able to get the dirt out of the clothes the prior washer stained -- using bleach and hard yellow soap and scrubbing before running through with other laundry. This would seem to prove that the prior washer was NOT leaking grease, but "just" depositing dirt onto the load in its final hours. (I had a hard time imagining how grease could get into the wash tub.)

We'll see how long this guy lasts.

Well I will chime in here. I have had a Sears FL (Kenmore 44052) with no internal heater for two years. I had the same feelings as you, chisue: I've lived without super-hot washes my whole life and was not willing to spend so much extra money for it. I have been very happy with my washer until just a couple months ago, when clothes started looking really dingy. We've always used the Sears detergent with Stain Fighters (recommended here). We increased the amount of detergent, which helped a lot. Then it happened again. We've switched to Tide and that has really helped. Also cleaned the machine pretty well, and tested the water temp, and a couple other things recommended on this site. Water temp is ok--with no load, hot goes to 115-120F. Water heater is right next to the washer.

So I am pretty well satisfied, although sometimes I regret not getting a Danby--it had the heater, and was in my price range. But I was concerned about capacity. You can really load a LOT into the Kenmore without reducing the quality of the wash. Cycle times are not too bad--I think a hot load is about an hour and ten minutes.

I hope you enjoy your new washer! Let us know.

chisue, which Frigidaire FL did you get? I am planning on a Frididaire FL stacked pair. One of the smaller ones.

I bought the Frigidaire FTF2140WH. Including delivery, hookup, removal of the old washer and tax (7.5%) it was a tad under $600 from Abt Appliances in Glenview, IL. This has a 3.5 tub. Old washer was a Gallery w/3.1 tub.

Now that I have the Danby with heater, I will never go without again. Love the white whites and never use bleach.

Chisue, thanks. It has been a very long time since I have shopped W/D. My 30 year old Maytag pair is still going. We have designed for a stackable in the renovation of our new place. I was in a very high end appliance store and when I said I wasn't interested in fancy or large, just dependable he said they have the Frigidaire laundry center that has been on the market for years, trouble free and now they have the stackables that are energy efficient.

eandhl -- FWIW, the delivery guy said the model I bought was the one the company's servicemen recommend most highly. Of course, that may be in the "script" to tell everyone about every washer!

I was amazed that the price for the "new, improved, slightly larger capacity (same exterior measurements)" washer was the same as I paid six years ago. Probably has to do with offshore mfg.

Good luck with your new set-up!

chisue, one more question if you don't mind. Is the opening to washer larger on your new 3.5 than is was on your 3.1? I have not been able to see the 3.5. TIA