James you have it!

I really don't care for corn starch as a thickener, not crazy about the texture or the sheen. Also I find near impossible to reheat.

But that's just me , others swear by it.

Sharon, I agree on the reheating too. In addition to the gelatinous texture I get from cornstarch in gravy, it "sets up" like jello or something when it gets cold and then it's even worse.

Since I have this issue with certain textures, that's it for me. I'd eat your gravy, though!

Annie

Ann_t, I don't do both, just one or the other. I'm sorry I was confusing. Mom taught me to do the slurry, I learned the roux on my own. She never figured it out. But, although I know the process, and can make brown gravy, I STILL can't make cream gravy!

Tami

Tami, I assumed that was the case, but thanks for clarifying.

I never cared for my mom's gravy because she made it using the corn starch slurry.

When I make a cream gravy to serve with fried chicken, I make a roux and use half chicken broth and half cream for the liquid. I like it seasoned with lots of fresh ground black pepper and will often simmer a cracked garlic clove in the gravy.

I do the same when I made a sausage gravy to serve over biscuits, adding some fresh sage as well.

Ann

The thing with meatloaf is that the drippings are mostly fat. You don't have enough juice in the drippings to make a good brown/beef gravy. Without adding beef stock or a packaged mix the best you can do is a cream gravy. Now don't get the idea I think anything is wrong with cream gravy! I disagree with the idea that if you use a mix, it isn't home made gravy. Many very good cooks use packaged products as a base, with or without "doctoring up." If I use canned tomato sauce instead of starting with fresh tomatoes, I don't think it somehow invalidates my spaghetti sauce as being "home made", for example.

If I make a beef gravy without a lot of drippings, I find that a dash of Kitchen Bouquet Browning and Seasoning Sauce adds a bit of body that plain beef stock lacks. Be sure to measure the dash into a spoon...the stuff has a tendency to suddenly gush out of the bottle when pouring directly into your pan of gravy. Yes, I know this from experience. :P

Making a brown roux will darken the gravy and add a richer taste, but don't forget that the darker the roux, the less the thickening power.

Rachel:
Thank you for saying what I think.

Jim:
I think it is about 50-50 on using Package mixes and Cornstarch to thicken Gravies.

If you get a bad taste or texture using Cornstarch,
you are not doing it right.

I've told members before, about top name restaurants using Corn Starch,
Spaghetti Sauce package mixes and Gravy Powdered mixes and Garlic Powder.
But no one seems to want to belive this.

Why does Lawry's sell all these things to restaurants ???
if they don't use them.
Lou

Of course I'm doing it wrong, and I've been doing it wrong for 48 years now, as long as I've been cooking.

Cornstarch thickened foods remind me of jello and jello makes me gag when I try to swallow it. Others love it. I feel the same way about the gelatinous goo that's in canned pie filling, I cannot swallow it but other family members use it all the time. And that's how I feel about cornstarch, I don't like it. Other people do. Use it if you like.

As for packaged gravy, that's what we used when we had the bar and grille, packaged gravy from Gordon Food Service, dried stuff that mixed with water. We used it because it was really cheap and convenient, not because it was good, and the customers would eat it, only a few complained. I mostly remember it being salty.

That's one more reason why I cook at home, because I don't like most restaurant food. I guess I've figured out why.

Annie

To me the texture of corn starch works well in dishes like chicken francaise or picatta, stir fries, etc. But in gravy for "meat" I typically would start with a roux. In the past I've had mixed results with a beurre manie - the end product sometimes tasting too much of raw flour - so I've put that method on the shelf.

Tapioca flour is what I have been using.

It's not as starchy and seems to retain it's texture after it has been cooled.

dcarch

Lou, I don't want to eat the additives and preservatives in those packaged foods.

I have sometimes used half roux and half cornstarch slurry, by way of cutting a few calories while not ending up with that cornstarch flavor/texture. Or, if I underestimated the amount of roux needed, a bit of cornstarch slurry can add the extra thickening without having to go through making a whole new roux. I don't care for using only cornstarch for a gravy or stew, though it's fine for thickening stir fry sauces and certain soups.

My experiences with beurre manie and a flour surrey tell me that unless the dish is to be cooked for a fair amount of time after adding, they aren't good methods. That flour taste just has to be cooked out, either before or after.

Another fat/calorie cutting trick that I have begun using to help thicken sauces and soups is to use a roux for flavor, but cut down on the amount, making up the difference with grated raw potato, leftover mashed potato, or pureed rice or bread. These don't require as much cooking as a flour slurry or beurre manie, but don't have the texture and sheen of cornstarch.

Lou you keep talking about "Top restaurants" doing this or using that....just what "top restaurants" are you talking about?
"Top Restauants" don't use Lowrey's seasoning mixes....that is for the fast food chain type of places.
Cornstarch works for a quick stir fry thickener...or for a thickener for a lemon pie or to dredge chicken for stir fry, but I don't like it at all for meat gravy...
And I like tapioca flour even less! I have an allergic friend who can't eat corn starch nor flour...so when she comes for dinner I thicken the gravy with tapioca. It quickly gets "ropey" and if you re-heat it loses the thickening power....as does cornstarch.
I don't like the taste of "gravy flavorings"...I don't like what cornstarch does to a good chicken gravy.
Yes, flour does have to be cooked to thicken and lose the raw taste....but 3 to 4 minutes will do the trick....and if you cook it twice that long it will still be OK....but if you cook a cornstarch thickened sauce 3 or 4 minutes too long, it starts to lose the thickening. Buerre manie is NOT a low cal way to make a sauce or gravy....but it does make a delicious one. If you are serious about watching fat and calories, best to use an Au jus kind of sauce for your meat.

Linda, I spent over 25 years in the restaurant business, and I can assure you that many restaurants that are neither chain restaurants nor fast food joints use any number of pre-packaged foods, spice mixes, frozen, dried and instant stock, soup and sauce mixes. In fact, the only restaurant I ever worked in that did not use any such things was Chevy's Fresh Mex restaurants, believe it or not. (They may now, that was many, many moons ago.)

I worked for a long time for a well known, owner-run restaurant with an excellent reputation in the SF Bay Area...overhead tray, formal service, a wine list that was a book, yada yada, and the most popular soup was our cream of mushroom. People would call us to make a reservation based on which night we would be offering it (the soups changed daily). It was also our "emergency" soup, the one we made when we ran out of soup unexpectedly because it could be made quickly. It started with large cans of Campbell's Cream of Mushroom Soup, to which we added sauteed celery, onions, mushrooms, sherry, cream and spices. People asked for the recipe almost constantly, raved about it to their friends.

The chef sometimes made stock, and sometimes used good quality beef or chicken base, depending on the soup, and not one customer ever knew or commented on the difference. In fact, out of all the complaints that every restaurant receives at one time or another, I cannot recall any complaint about any of our soups, other than a couple of times when they hadn't been served hot enough for the customer's taste...oh, and once, a spicy tomato soup was deemed too spicy.

Everyone has different tastes, folks tongues pick up different things. A flour thickener only cooked for under 15 minutes or so leaves a taste in my mouth reminiscent of the way wallpaper paste smells.

I have tried many of the flours in this article:

http://www.foodsubs.com/ThickenStarch.html

for thickening and for gravy, I ended up using tapioca. Water chestnut flour is not too bad.

There are a few others not listed which you can get in an Asian store which are better than corn starch.

dcarch

Rachelellen - I respectfully disagree with you. I too had spent many years working in various upscale restaurants and NEVER saw Lawrys or any of those powdered/canned mixes used. Of course, I'm not saying it can't happen, but to say that many of them resort to the MSG/salt laden mixes is just not true.

"People asked for the recipe almost constantly, raved about it to their friends."

That doesn;t mean those people had any sort of refined palate either - there are a LOT of people that think the food at the national chains is wonderful too!

Alexa

There used to be a restaurant here which had a great reputation, family owned not a chain. People said the food was wonderful. They were always crowded at noon....their menu featured stuff like chicken fried steak, chicken dinner with whipped potatoes and cream gravy, meatloaf with mushroom gravy, chili, chicken noodle soup.....and I can guarantee they used canned and powdered gravy mixes. The working crowd loved it. Those who liked fine dining only ate there when their kitchen was being remodeled.
But fine, upscale, chef run places do not use flavoring packets not canned cream of whatever soup in their recipes...That's the mark of a chain, or a mom and pop style diner.

Linda C

There is a major difference between a "top" restaurant and a "popular" restaurant.

I can't imagine a chef in a "top" or a high end restaurant using packaged mixes. Chain restaurants that are popular, like the Olive Garden or Red Lobster or the Keg, or other similar restaurants probably depend on instant mixes to control quality.

Any one ever watch Ramsay's Kitchen Nightmares? One of the first things he does to help turn a restaurant around is to revamp their menus getting rid of all the instant and frozen items the restaurant owners/chefs have been using.

Ann

I guess I imagined my whole 20 some odd years of working in upscale, expensive, well rated restaurants where check averages of $75 per person were routine and where certain mixes and other premade ingredients were used in some dishes. That's good...because I'd hate to think that all those customers I served for years, the educated, successful, well dressed and well groomed loyal patrons lacked a refined palate or were constantly having their kitchen remodeled. I prefer to think that I'm being accused of an overactive imagination than of being either too ignorant to know whether or not a restaurant I worked in was a chain restaurant or a "mom and pop diner" or an outright liar.

Rachellellen you are taking offense where none was intended.

I'm sure you are right that there are many popular restaurants charging $75.00 a head that use premade or instant mixes. But I would not call these "top" restaurants. Just popular and probably very successful.

If I was paying $75.00 a head I would be very disappointed to find out that the restaurant was using a cheap can of soup and passing it off as homemade. Although I guess if I couldn't tell the difference..................

Ann

Roux here and add the broth and whisk like crazy. Wondra flour if I need a little extra thickening but I usually get the proportions right by eyeballing. I make gravy at the last possible moment so it has be quick. I want everything hot at the same time. I loves me some good gravy.

I usually only make gravy with turkey and all the trimmings. It is a treat and not standard fare in this house. I remove the bird from the roasting pan and put it on a carving board to rest. I add butter (if needed) and flour to the pan drippings, let that cook a bit, then I add turkey stock (I always freeze a bunch) and a splash of dry white wine and whisk like crazy. I salt to taste, if needed. If I am distracted and get a lump, the stick blender saves me. I make my gravy right in the roasting pan set over two burners. I have never had a proper covered roasting pan and always use the bottom of a broiling pan which is flat with a foil tent. If I am low on turkey stock, I use chicken stock. I also make broth from the neck and giblets, minus the liver, and use that.

I also prefer flour to cornstarch for meat gravies. I haven't tried the half and half option. I might. I have never used tapioca or potato starch, either. They aren't things that make it into my grocery cart. I don't make gravy from meatloaf drippings. The meatloaf seems sinful enough! But it sounds yummy. I do make gravy from beef roast drippings, same method as above with a splash of red wine.

A few points:

1. I have the good fortune of having been invited to the grand opening of the TV Foodnetwork at the Rainbow Room and have met most of the famous chefs. I have talked to many of them since. No question, they all use short cuts. I donÂt know how many times on TV Jacques Pippin and others have used canned chicken stock for their recipes.

2. I have seen an interesting program. In a very up-scale restaurant, customer were served with frozen dinner, except the dinners were plated in a very beautiful way. The customers thought the meals were delicious. DonÂt trust you taste buds that much.

3. The food industry is huge and diverse. You cannot dispute otherÂs experiences based on your own.

dcarch

I donÂt know how many times on TV Jacques Pippin and others have used canned chicken stock for their recipes.

Yeah, probably more episodes than not have a carton of broth/stock appearing at some point. But I don't recall EVER seeing someone bust out a boullion cube or soup base - which is what's being debated here.

Canned stock is relatively expensive, so while I'm sure soup base is common, it would really surprise me to hear that canned is as well.

In his book, The Lutece Cookbook, Andre Soltner discusses how at home he occasionally uses knorr bouillon cubes.
No biggie to any of us, but in his circles it is.

Rachelellen:
I don't know if you are trying to help me but
don't worry, I'm used to it.
You are lucky 20 more didn't comment.

I've had to contend with this, ever since my very first Post.
Does anyone remember ???

" Oh, I don't shape Bagels that way. It's like joining a rope together."

Until they found out most NY Bagelmakers did it that way.

Only problem is that it was never acknowledged that I was right and

their words were the ones, that were REMEMBERED !!!

That was over 3 years ago " And the beat goes on !!!"

Rachelellen:
God Bless You,
I don't know if I'm allowed to say that but I did.
LOU

It's only gravy. Let's eat, not debate.

So many flours you can use to make gravy.

Mung Bean starch, water lily (lotus root) flour, taro flour, waterchestnut flour, yuca flour, sweet potato flour, Water caltrop flour ------

Water Caltrop flour is also great for making gravy.

dcarch

There are soup bases, and soup bases. Some are basically bouillon in a different form, some are actually made of meats. Minors is one of the better ones, the first two ingredients being beef and beef stock or chicken and chicken broth, no added msg, artificial flavors, colors or preservatives and lower in salt than most. Better Than Bouillon is the next step down, but still pretty good and that's pretty much what one finds around here.

Most canned broth isn't necessarily lower in sodium than these bases, incidentally. The Minors chicken is 540mg per cup, Better Than Bouillon, 680mg, Swansons canned is 680 (natural goodness, 570, organic 550), and a can of a store brand I had in the cabinet is 970.

Now I don't have health issues with sodium, so I don't worry too much about it other than not to add extra when I cook, leaving it to individuals to add more at table if they choose. One gets a certain amount of sodium in home made stock, even without adding salt, which most cooks do at some point in the process of either making the stock or making things out of the stock. If you add a teaspoon of salt, you've just dropped 2400mg of sodium into the pot in addition to the natural sodium that occurs in the meats and vegetables.

Here is a link that might be useful: Minors bases

Rachelellen - I don't know how much of a respected source the CIA is (I think it might be, not sure) but here are a couple excerpts from their book "The Professional Chef" that might support some of your points:

"Not all kitchens prepare stocks today, either because meaty bones and trim are not readily available on a consistent basis or because they do not have the space or manpower to successfully prepare and hold stocks."

"Not all bases are created equally, however... Avoid bases that rely on high sodium... Quality bases are made from meats, bones, vegetables, spices and aromatics."

"Even in kitchens that do prepare stocks, bases are helpful to have on hand to deepen and improve the stock's flavor."

Thanks for recommending Minors. I should give it a try. I typically use canned when I need a quantity but it's being significantly altered by the rest of the recipe, Better than Boullion for small quantities needed in a recipe, but if stock is the main ingredient - as in soup, I certainly appreciate homemade.

foas,

You are a very knowledgeable and well informed person with very balanced views.

(Except when you disagree with me. LOLOL----)

dcarch

I really don't care much for Better than Bouillon beef flavor. The chicken is passable and better than Knorr cubes for sure. I think they taste strange. I'll check out Minors. Where can it be found, Rachelellen? We live in the same area. Making my own beef stock won't happen soon.

foas, You are a very knowledgeable and well informed person

I'm flattered, wish it were true. I'm actually quite ignorant.

with very balanced views

Thank you. I honestly do try.

(Except when you disagree with me. LOLOL----)

I just humor you when I feel you're asking for it! ;-)

Rachelellen:
I've been using Tallarico's Chicken and Beef Flavored,
soup bases for years,
to enhance the flavors of soups and gravies.
It has some of the bad things in it, which I knew.
I didn't mind because I never used much.
I'll have to try Minors.
ILU - XXXXXXX
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Eileen:
It's available on Amazon.
Minors Beef base 16 oz.- $12.95, makes 5 gallons.
Minors Chicken base 16 oz. - $11.95, makes 5 gallons.
LOU

Eileen, I use Minor's bases that I buy at a food service retail store. They come in white plastic 8oz containers and are refrigerated. You sound like me, everyone that knows me calls me the 'gravy queen'. I love good gravy.

The OP asked a good question. My simple answer to that is, you can't make good gravy from meatloaf. Not what I call good gravy anyway. There's not enough sucs (often referred to as fond) to give it flavor. That's why many are suggesting the use of mixes and broth.When I make meatloaf, I usually just make scalloped potatoes, augratin potatoes or something similar, that doesn't need gravy.

Note about Lawery's....I believe the seasoning mix came about because of demand. They developed their own blend to use in their restaurant, it was so well liked that they then bottled it and put on the market. The downtown Chicago restaurant is now closed. It was one of my favorite places to eat when I used to work the trade shows in Chicago. I have know idea who owns the 'Lawery's' name that is on all the mixes and sauces. Those mixes were never in the kitchen at the Lawery's resturarestaurantnt in Chicago as there was nothing on their menu that would have used them. It's just a brand name now...

Interesting thread...anyone what to discuss demi-glace? :)

Nancy

Nancy, this is from Wikipedia--

Lawry's and Adolph's are food, seasoning, and beverage brands owned by McCormick & Company, and formerly owned by Unilever.[1]

Nancy:
I think they were taken over by Mc Cormick's or visa versa.

I'm not sure.
Lou

Nah Nancy, I'm the gravy queen! Love the stuff!

Beverly

I have tried gravy in a jar and thought it was awful. Has to be the real deal!

I order Minor's bases from the online store. Since my husband is on a low sodium diet, I order the low sodium chicken & beef. I've tried the low sodium Better than Bouillon, but the sodium content was still too high for me to comfortably use. And I wasn't really impressed with the flavor either.

With my last order of Minor's, I also got the roasted chicken flavor soup base. I really like its flavor.

I find using these soup bases not only convenient but immensely helpful in trying to make flavorful lower sodium dishes. They're so much better than dried granules and cubes.

Here is a link that might be useful: Minor's Soup Base

Wow! You have finally recommended a product I can use. The only one of the Minor's soup bases that has garlic in it is the vegetable. It is very hard to find any that doesn't have garlic in it. I will be looking for it now. I use Tone's beef base, but the chicken has garlic in it. Thanks for the recommendation.

Tami

"I do not like cornstarch in gravy at all, it's too gelatinous."

Interesting, I have always contended that corn starch makes a sauce not a gravy. The term gravy comes from the French (I believe) for grainy which you can only get from using flour.

I sometimes use potato starch instead of a roux, but I also do not use cornstarch in gravy, partly because it often gets too thick. I also tend not to use the term "gravy" because it means different things to different people. My Sicilian roommate in San Francisco used "gravy" to mean tomato sauce. I tend to use terms such as Bechamel, Mornay (if it has cheese), or Velouté (if it is made with stock instead of milk), and velouté is what I normally make, either for meat or vegetables, but often I just call all of them "sauce", which seems to be a nice catch-all. I tend not to like sauces that have milk or cream in them, and I especially do not like Alfredo sauce, partly because many people put nutmeg in it, but I do not like it even when no nutmeg is used. My favorite sauce is chili sauce, and it must not have any tomato in it.

"Bechamel, Mornay, or Velouté"???
You are too sophisticated for me, (:

Alfredo Sauce is good but not too often.
Nutmeg??? Horrors...

Chili Sauce, by Heinz right in there with the ketchups !!!
I don't think we are talking about the same thing though.

Wow....this is an old thread!
Cornstarch is for thickening things like a stir fry, or pudding or lemon meringue pie.
My objection to canned sauces and (gag!) canned gravy is the preservatives and the fact that the seasoning is not my own...nor the cook's own....but rather the taste Brought about by a chemist at McCormick's or whatever.I can taste "mix" and premade a mile away. Some people rave about the chicken soup at a local restaurant....so I tried it! Ack...nasty "soup base" heavy salty stuff.
I use "soup base" fairly often....but I think my huge objection is those who use it with a heavy hand because they don't recognize what a bit of lemon juice, or some dried mushrooms or a pinch of marjoram will do.
Try adding 1/2 teaspoon to some fresh green beans instead of salt.

This was a fun read today for me. What happened to Hawk/Lou?

gravy (n.) late 14c. (early 14c. in Anglo-French), from Old French grave, graue, apparently a misspelling of grané "sauce, stew," with -n-misread for -u- -- the character used for -v- in medial positions in words in medieval manuscripts. The French word probably originally meant "properly grained, seasoned," from Latin granum "grain, seed" (see grain (n.)). Meaning "money easily acquired" first attested 1910; gravy train (1909) originally was railroad slang for a short haul that paid well. Gravy-boat "small, deep dish for holding gravy or sauce" is from 1827.

I avoided this discussion when it was new because it was too contentious, and when I opened it this time, I went straight to the bottom to see why it had been revived without reading the old posts.

So, how are we doing this time?
(:

I use the Creamy Mushroom Gravy recipe from Chowhound for meatloaf. Very easy and very good.

MJ

I never eat meatloaf hot with gravy. I only make meatloaf to slice cold for sandwiches on rustic white bread with ketchup. Just my thing...