It is hard for anyone to properly judge price on a large job like this without seeing it in person. They are doing a lot in terms of new equipment and ductwork and demolition of existing system and ductwork, and you are looking at a top of the line system. Then the attic access and insulation improvements. Make sure you are working with a reputable and competent dealer, especially with top of the line equipment.

What is the size of the existing system, and how was it determined that a 3 ton system was required? A load calculation should be done to properly determine system size.

Obviously I assume they are installing a new refrigerant lineset?

Lastly, the FE4ANF005 air handler is the same physical size as the one you were quoted (003 model), and you get much better performance out of it with regards to capacity and efficiency. This should be a no brainer -- discuss with dealer.

Hard to say about pricing with new ductwork added in. I would call the pricing very full and frisky.

Any manufacturer rebates?

The system is not a matched system according to AHRI HP Directory.
You need either the 005 or 006 air handler size for a matching system. A good dealer would know this. Have you verified that this dealer has installed the Greenspeed system? I would get some references and tel phone numbers.

Some dealers use new ductwork as a large profit center. I don't care for that approach.

My advice is get another quote from a Bryant dealer that carries the identical equipment before proceeding with the Carrier quote.

I assume you are in an all electric situation.

Do you mind sharing your location?

IMO

Hey Tiger

The 25VNA036 is a match with all FE4 air handlers (002-006).

Wonder why they didn't come up for you in the directory. They do for me.

This post was edited by ryanhughes on Wed, Aug 7, 13 at 16:49

Ryan

I double checked twice with the Carrier and again on the Bryant systems. Came up the same. Will check again this evening when I have more time. Regardless, the 005 and 006 are the better choices. Concerned about the pricing from this dealer.

Best Rgds
TD

Hi, thank you.
My house is 820 sq ft. 2 bedroom, 2 small bath. VERY small house.
ALL of my ducts, are rusted and falling/crumbling apart. the furnace is 35 years old. so they are completely starting from scratch.

I live in Ga. yes we have hot weather, but sometimes it can get down in the teens.
I have had many different heat/air guys come over with estimates. and although the carrier is the most expensive. It seems like a better deal. they are gonna do the insulation as well as sealing up all the old floor vents too.

The guy from Lennox told me yesterday that 3 ton is too much. and there was no such thing as life warranty . carrier has a rebate of 1,000 right now till the end of august.
I am so confused. I don't know who to go with.

To TD: Try searching by these AHRI numbers this evening when you get a chance: 4616891, 4616892, 4616934, 4539517. These are what come up for me.

----------

I did initially feel that $20k is on the higher end of the spectrum, but not outrageously far off from what I would expect based on the work scope detailed in the OP and knowing the Greenspeed is an expensive system. It could be more labor intensive than we know. Could require a couple of days and a few guys if its a tight crawlspace they're removing equipment and ductwork from. Who knows.

A 3 ton system is absolutely crazy for a 820 square foot residence, inverter compressor or not. There just should not be that much of a heat load or heat loss to warrant even considering the 3 ton. A load calculation is certainly in order. Ask the dealer to provide one prior to signing any contract, especially at such a price.

This post was edited by ryanhughes on Wed, Aug 7, 13 at 19:39

Hi, thank you.
My house is 820 sq ft. 2 bedroom, 2 small bath. VERY small house.
ALL of my ducts, are rusted and falling/crumbling apart. the furnace is 35 years old. so they are completely starting from scratch.

I live in Ga. yes we have hot weather, but sometimes it can get down in the teens.
I have had many different heat/air guys come over with estimates. and although the carrier is the most expensive. It seems like a better deal. they are gonna do the insulation as well as sealing up all the old floor vents too.

The guy from Lennox told me yesterday that 3 ton is too much. and there was no such thing as life warranty . carrier has a rebate of 1,000 right now till the end of august.
I am so confused. I don't know who to go with.

Some observations.

I will say that I am partial to Carrier.

I would in your situation prefer the FE4ANF003 fan coil to the FE4ANF004 because among other reasons it has the "sloped" coil as opposed to the "A" coil as in the rest of the FE4 series fan coils. I prefer the sloped coil.

"CARRIER 3.0 TON GREENSPEED 2 SPEED HEAT PUMP CARRIER 3.0 TON VARIABLE SPEED R-410-A AIR HANDLER"

Carrier Greenspeeds are NOT 2-speed HPs, they're inverter variable (40%-100% capacity)!

"CARRIER TOUCHSCREEN THERMOSTAT CONTROL"

I strongly advise installing the WiFi version of this T-stat (SYSTXCCITW01).

Might be worthwhile to have the 10-year parts & labor warranty.

Manual J load calculation should be done, 3-ton sounds too big, however, with 3-ton Greenspeed you'd still be OK as long as the ductwork is matched. You'll likely only need the backup electric elements (staged I hope!) in case of compressor lockout or failure, given your location.

I know you may be confused but as long as you go with the Carrier Infinity Greenspeed, get a good installation and full 10-year parts and labor warranty (from Carrier) you'll be OK! The worst that may happen is that you paid a bit too much. That may not be too serious if you have a good, Carrier authorized and reputable installer.

I think you're on the right track - sleep tight!

IMPO

SR

Thank You SR.
Being a new divorcee' I have no clue as to what I am doing. but I am doing as much research as I can, getting lots of different folks out here, and getting many different quotes, and this is better than that and vise verse. as a woman I feel that these salesmen tend to take advantage of the fact that 'some' of us gals just don't know a thing about house stuff.. NOTE** I said 'some= me! not all women. please no hate comments. but for me, I am completely lost! heh-heh!

Thank you all very much. ** was teetering between a lenox and the greenspeed.**
we will see what happens.

Good night all.

There is NO comparison between Greenspeed and Lennox. Do your research and itâÂÂs less likely anyone can fool you.

The Carrier Infinity Greenspeed also comes with the most advanced (WiFi) thermostat/controller in the residential market; that too makes a BIG difference!

Have everything written and detailed (make, model, description) before signing. Write into your contract that ALL âÂÂstart-up measurementsâ must be documented in writing and delivered to you before final payment. These measurements will serve as a âÂÂbaselineâ against future measurements, to be kept with the fan coil, unit, should problems arise in the future. It is also advisable to write into the contract a âÂÂCancellation Dateâ so that if work hasnâÂÂt begun before that date that the contract is âÂÂnull and void, cancelled with all deposits returned in full within 10-daysâÂÂ. I would also write into the contract a clause stating that âÂÂthere will be no make/model substitutes without your written, signed authorizationâÂÂ. No one with a brain will likely mess with you after all that.

Some of my most informed clients in this field have been women. They were also
the shrewdest and more decisive than their male partners. Those that had PhDs in the sciences were the easiest to deal with; they were not adverse to in-depth research, math or chemistry; they get it!

You sound far from lost or 'clueless'.

SR

I think the Greenspeed heat pump is overkill for a 820 sq. ft. house. How much energy saving can you expect versus an conventional heat pump?

If you want to save some money then consider one of the 2-stage Infinity or Performance heat pumps with the variable speed air handler. You can also eliminate the WiFI feature from the Infinity controller. It is not necessary in my opinion.

For Ryan

I did recheck the directory and again the 002 and 003 Air handler model systems did not show up on the listing. Can't figure out why. I did plug in your matching numbers and they did appear. It should be noted that the 002 and 003 systems have poor HSPF compared to the 005 and 006 systems that I listed in earlier post.

Now back to the original poster for this thread. Some observations. While you don't give your exact location in Georgia, I believe your dealer is attempting to take advantage of you price wise both equipment and ductwork. You are not being sized correctly and I concur with Mike that the Greenspeed is overkill for Georgia. Simply ridiculous.. I would call a Trane or AmStD dealer and request a quote on XR15 Trane or Heritage 15 AmStd and paired with TAM7 air handler. Probably 2 ton.

Of course if you have deep pockets and like to waste money, then proceed with this Carrier dealer. However, I just don't believe he has your interests at heart,

I believe even a two stage condenser is overkill for such small living area.

Sorry to report this.

Unless there are details that are unknown to me and even the fact that I can't see job, I would think based on the size and scope of work you have described, new install should not cost more than $10 K. I certainly would not go GreenSpeed!

And to be clear, you are all electric, no nat gas available?

IMO

This post was edited by tigerdunes on Thu, Aug 8, 13 at 14:20

Hi everyone, again thank you for all the nice replies.

I have another question:

Between estes, cool ray, and reliable heating and air... is one better than the other as far as workmanship? or trust worthiness?

Again for third time, are you all electric or do you have nat gas service?

And could you please describe your home?

What is your location? Atlanta or other city in Ga?

Most people can't respond to the dealers listed without knowing your location, even in a general way. Last time I checked, Ga is a pretty big state.

IMO

Tigerdunes,
Hi.

Atlanta. my house is old, built in 1920. not insulated at all. lots of cracks and such (I am doing my best to seal as much as possible with home depot caulking.

My existing 'gas' furnace is 30 plus years old with a crack in it and all the duct work is fallen apart. the furnace and duct work is now located in my crawl space.

Everything in my home is electric. we have had no gas nor have we had heat in my home since 2004. (another story)
Nor have we had any air conditioner. **would think I would be all shriveled up by now! do you know how hard it is to bath in a house with no heat!!
at any rate, all of the 'new system will be placed in the attic. and starting from scratch. cutting into the ceiling to make for vents and such. and on and on.
I feel somewhat confident in the greenspeed I have read many good reviews. and am trying to educate my self on this daily. after this is paid for, I have to know that my monthly bills will be affordable for me to keep up with.
(My neighbor has a heat pump *I think it is goodson?* but his monthly electric bills are well over 400 bucks a month. I do not want to have to pay that. actually, I cant pay that. so I am looking for something that is gonna conserve and save me money in the long run.

"My existing 'gas' furnace is 30 plus years old with a crack in it..... we have had no gas"

I can't follow this. Do you have a gas line coming into your house or not? The fact that you have not used it since 2004 is irrelevant. If you do have access to a gas supply, then it would probably be cheaper to heat your home with a gas furnace than a heat pump. You could then get an AC condenser. This is how you get to a $10K installation cost and still have low monthly operating costs.

Mike, yes there is a gas line. along with the greenspeed they will be installing a gas furnace as well. duel system as they call it.

It was my understanding that a 'heat pump' is a better choice for AC- cheaper to run in the summer appose to a regular air conditioner unit.
with the added bonus of using it to warm your home on days that are not freezing temps. then when below freezing temp, the gas furnace would kick on.
"Just talked to another heat/air company today, told me a 3 ton is what my house needs because it is an older home. that the heat pump would not be too much as it would know when to kick on and off. ...... sigh!

WHY are all these companies deceiving me? I cant get any of them to give me a straight answer. I am doing my research. and as usual I am simply getting more and more confused. ):

What is your electrical rate per kWhr? What is the cost of natural gas?

So far you have only mentioned the installation of an FE4ANF004, that is an all-electric variable speed fan coil unit and NOT a gas furnace.

You should have a âÂÂManual Jâ and âÂÂManual Dâ analysis done. 3-ton does sound too big. 2-ton should be the more logical choice - but weâÂÂre not there to see your home!

A heat pump would not necessarily be cheaper to run than an A/C unit in the summer, that would depend on the SEER rating of the units.

If you did install a Greenspeed heat pump you would NEVER need a gas furnace to take over in the wintertime in Georgia - unless or until Hell freezes over! You should be able to heat with a properly sized Greenspeed down to about -4F. WhenâÂÂs the last time youâÂÂve seen sustained temperatures like that in Georgia?

It may not be a bad idea to have a 59MN7A gas furnace, it would give you flexibility as energy rates change but this is a real premium system that would cost a lot up front and may not be worth it unless a utility gives you a price break for having dual energy and the gas utility gives you an incentive for installing a gas furnace. Gas prices are likely to stay low for quite some time.

Also keep in mind that with a gas furnace you may have to install an expensive chimney liner as well as a new gas line and that with an electric fan coil unit you may have to upgrade your electrical service entrance to 200-amps, also expensive.

SR

Hudson

This is rather confusing.

You have natural gas service to your home yet Carrier dealer is quoting an all electric GreenSpeed HP system for an Atlanta location. Is there a reason?

I thoroughly understand the need for a replacement ductwork system. I do not understand though the reason for relocating the ductwork from the crawlspace to the attic. Can you provide additional information?

While HPs do have their place for the right application, I do not like them for older homes with questionable insulation properties.

Since nat gas is available, I would think a small nat gas furnace would be preferable to a HP for heating. Something like Trane's XT80 with 32 KBTUs and then add a two ton high eff AC. Save the money over the idiocy of the GreenSpeed and put that money toward improvements of your home.

What about this fellows?

I know nothing about any of these dealers but I did note that Reliable is a Trane dealer.

IMO

You are getting bad advice from the contractors you are speaking with. They are trying to sell you systems that are expensive are not appropriate from your size home and climate. I get the feeling they are taking advantage of your situation.

You need to find a contractor who can put together a system that makes sense and achieve your goals. Keep looking, there has to be at least one competent contractor in Atlanta!

One other thought to pass along.

Since we know that OP's location is Atlanta area, it should be noted that this is a highly competitive HVAC marketplace for reputable dealers.

IMO

Yours is the perfect scenario to abandon the ductwork system entirely and go with a minisplit heat pump. It will be much less expensive and more efficient as well. It is incredibly hard to replace ductwork in a building and do it properly. CAn it be done...yes, but as you have found out, it is spendie. I did this in my home. I pulled all the old ductwork out of the house and went totally with mini-split heat pumps and I added a Rinnai Energysaver gas fired direct vent wall furnace, but I am up in the foothills of the Sierra and have different heating requirements. I have Fujitsu units in my home. The other top brands are Mitsubishi and Daikin.

First- Money is no issue now (Another story) but The cost is the least of my worries.

My existing duct-work (crawl space) is completely fallen apart, pieces missing, and crumbles to the touch.
The existing furnace is over 30 yrs old.* has a crack in it* (at one time we used it-last time 2004, gas) after the gas got turned off, the gas company took away the meter,

My EX husband decided to put in electric water heater/ cook top. and we went all 'electric' .... minus proper heat (space heaters)
****Been freezing for many years****

Ok, the several hvac? persons that have come out for quotes told me the crawl space is small, and the fact that the vents coming from the floor are small and behind walls/ under beds/ and in places that the air/heat/air would not get circulated properly would be better coming from the ceiling. and that now days folks get the heating systems placed in the attics (This is what I am being told)

I have no education in the heating/AC field. I am a woman, and I can only assume they see me as a ninny and are trying to sell me the moon?

That is why I have come on here for help.
I do not know what to do at this point.

I want the best- I want the most efficient, and I want the extended warranty. again, money is no issue here. I am tried of being cold in the winter.

Yes my home is very small, and almost 100 years old. I am being told I need more tons due to wonky insulation.

I NEED HELP. and when I say I have had BIG names come in my home. I mean it. I thought I would /could trust the big dogs.

now I am even more confused.
sigh!

If you are tired of being cold in the winter, then I recommend gas heat whether from a ductwork system or a wall fired system. You have gas and it is relatively cheap. I simply don't like HPs for older homes with poor insulation properties. You will need to decide about the aesthetics of mini split systems and a wall fired gas system. Since you have gas, take advantage of it. How are you staying cool- window unit?

I would want to hear another opinion about relocating ductwork system. It is true attic ductwork is quie common for homes built on a slab as well as 2nd story systems.

IMO

Installing an HVAC in an unconditioned attic would be my last choice. Builders like installing in the attic since it easy to run flexible duct work. This reduces the installation costs. If you have the space you could build an insulated utility room in the attic. I would spend the money building the utility and then install a 95%+ efficiency gas furnace with a single or 2-stage AC.

Are contractors proposing the attic because they don't want to be bothered to work in your crawl space? Vents can be moved if they are located in poor locations.

For such a small living area and a very moderate winter climate, I think good sizing is more important than whether furnace is 80 or 95 % efficient. And since living area is small, I would stick with a high eff single stage condenser.

IMO

Yes I have a small window unit in my bedroom (The ONLY comfortable place in my house!) don't even want to walk to the kitchen, or even the front door for that matter, my house is so HOT HOT!

Now, again, I was told the crawl space is too tight, and I can only assume they don't want to be on their knees in that damp, dark, crummy space! and yes they said something about building a little "place" for the furnace in my attic, with all new vents/duct work and so on.

Here in Atlanta in winter we stay in 30's/ 40's but we do get a week or so of just teens. on those days are the worst. a space heater just does not get it.

Please, tell me what is the very BEST, top of the line, rolls royce energy efficient diamond of all furnaces?

I feel so dumb. I hate to keep calling the same folks out here and I am running out of 'big names' to call.
Where are the honest folks? and why take advantage of a woman who has not one clue about heating/air.

I don't get it. I have a handicap daughter, and I am trying to care for her, and host a slew of folks through my home getting this and that and I feel I am being bounced around.

One guy even came out to my home, never stepped one foot inside, simply walked around, looked under the crawl space (never went inside) just peeped. and quoted me a price. at least the others have walked around INside, and even looked in my attic.

sigh, sigh, sigh!!

One more thing"

Carrier? Estees? cool air? bettes" Reliable? and so on, just WHO is the most reliable company to go with>???

I can understand your sense of frustration. $20000 is a total ripoff. You can get a FUJITSU 36k 3 Zone Ductless Mini split, Heat pump Heating & Air conditioning for $6800 installed( in ny/nj). Use the remainder of money to have a handyman install insulation in your attic/ walls for a few hundred dollars. If you still need additional heat in winter a gas back up heating system can be installed.Still comes out much cheaper not only in up front costs but also to run. In addition you will have individual controls of different zones. And no need to get new attic stairs --how often do you make the trip up anyways? The new Japanese mini splits are far more efficient than central ac units.Just find a knowledgeable installer that is certified to install the system of your choice. Going on the manufacturer's website and finding a dealer installer in your area would be the first step.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/LG-Ductless-Mini-Split-Tri-Zone-Heat-Pump-27-000-BTU-21-7-Seer-system-9-9-9/290949856073?rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222002%26algo%3DSIC.FIT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D261%26meid%3D527402057856186775%26pid%3D100005%26prg%3D1088%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D5%26sd%3D290949883434%26

Here is a link that might be useful: check out this ebay posting to get an idea of real prices

I think the problem with the advice here is that folks here are more inclined to recommend the best system for the least price. It kinda rubs most the wrong way to recommend a gold-plated diamond encrusted system when a simpler system would perform the same.

I suppose if you want to buy a Bugati to drive to the end of the driveway and fetch the mail, I guess you can go ahead.

Ok, I am sorry for bugging yall again... but I do appreciate you all helping me.

I have been thinking. How does this sound, and tell me please if I need something else?

I am going to ask for the Infinity Gas furnace- and matching control (thermostat?) as I said, I really don't even know what to ask for but in doing research and carrier left me a brochure I was reading through it, and see some nice reviews about it.
For now I am not concerned about a heat pump, or even an air conditioner. However, is there a such thing as an air conditioner that matches the infinity gas furnace?
Please, I know yall base answers on best product for least amount of $, however, I have only one shot to get the funds for this furnace. and I want the best. the best because I know it will last me a long time. I do not care about bells and whistles, No. I just want the best. and as before, tere will have to be new ducts, vents, and anything else that goes with a new system.

Is one stage better than 2 stage? what is variable speed? what is a box filter? what is a condensing fan? please, please help me figure this one out, so at least I will know some of what I am asking for and not just accepting what they are telling me?
and what seer? of furnace should I ask for or need? thank you in advance.
I am sorry for being a bugger.

Disagree.

Get with an authorized Trane dealer.

Since nat gas is available, I would think a small nat gas furnace would be preferable to a HP for heating. Something like Trane's XT80 with 32 KBTUs and then add a two ton high eff AC that qualifies for Fed Tax Credit. This would be a solid system for you. Save the money over the idiocy of the GreenSpeed and put that money toward improvements of your home.

In your case sizing is more important than efficiency and two stage AC is overkill for such a small living area.

The Carrier dealer who quoted the Greenspeed does not have your best interests at heart.

IMO

Ok, I have set up an appointment with estes, they carry, carrier, and trane furnace's. for next week.

THANK YOU ALL for your help. please wish me luck as I am simply nutty over hear. and knowing winter is just around the corner am getting a tad nervous.

I wish one of you guys were here in Atlanta to help me!!

Variable speed: not to be confused with VARIOUS or multi speed. Variable speed means that the blower will run at different speeds at different times. For cooling, this usually means that it starts slow for several minutes, then speeds up. This is good for humidity removal. And since you're in a humid area it would be very nice to have.

Box filter: I'm guessing they are talking about the rather new 4" thick filters rather than 1", or 1/2". The bigger filter means that you don't have to change it as often, like once a year rather than once a month.

Condensing fan: guessing that you are talking about a condensing furnace. A gas flame produces water vapor as part of combustion. Higher efficiency furnaces extract enough heat from the exhaust for this water vapor to condense resulting in water in the exhaust pipe. This requires a pipe that can stand being wet, and is why these can be a bit more costly to install.

As to SEER, I have a preference for 15. Going higher the costs escalate and the return on investment takes longer.

weedmeister,
Thank you. I am writing all of this down!

A guy from amana is coming over this evening, he talked to me on the phone a while, and was recommended by a family member.

Are amana heating systems good?

Weedmeister, come on over here and help me!

Thank you.
((:

No Amana....

ok, but he was actually one of the nicer, honest folks that I have talked with. and seemed very thorough. sigh. back to the drawing board.

the carrier (cool ray) folks are teed off. they wont even call/email me back. you know, the 20,000 dollar folks.

I don't know what to do.
cry? lol

what did you end up doing?