The Greenspeed is the 20 SEER, the 18 SEER is about $2500 cheaper. Is it worth sticking to the 20 SEER?

I can only give you a real-world informed opinion. If you aren't using the Greenspeed heating portion and/or don't have good installation, then no, the anything above 15 SEER isn't worth the additional money. You won't get anything close to 20 SEER without good insulation.

I would actually go with the Carrier Comfort series and insist that Carrier send you the soundblanket for free, Have your dealer install it under the guarantee. A soundblanket over the compressor is the main difference between the Performance and Comfort.

For additional comfort consider a whole house dehumidifier and/or a variable speed blower in the attic and maybe a nice filtration cabinet, like an electronic Aprilaire 5000 or a Lennox LC16. That's the most bang for the buck.

"Are you saying without the federal tax credit the geothermal quote is about $78K?"

Sorry, that should have read *before* any rebates and Fed tax credit, so 38K. I have a smaller backyard and would need a vertical loop and drilling in NYC is VERY expensive.

Although I just decided to get a second quote on geothermal. This authorized Carrier and Climatemaster dealer has done TONS of Greenspeed and geothermal installs and is very excited about both tech. Climatemaster does manufacture variable speed units.

I am going to ask for real world examples of bills in my area.

Thanks for all the advice. My father in-law just informed me that Bryant products are equivalent to Carrier but less expensive. Is this true? If yes is the Evolution Extreme the equivalent to the Greenspeed?

Yes, Carrier owns Bryant and uses the brand to infiltrate the markets of other value brands. The Evolution is around 98% identical, the performance is 100% the same to the Greenspeed. The main differences: the Carrier has a baked on enamel finish, better compressor and cabinet damping/insulation and is overall quieter by several dB... not sure about the differences between the air handler. The t-stat is also identical.

The Bryant equipment may be a little cheaper but after the installation costs by contractor the price could be the same or higher than the equivalent Carrier equipment.

Essentially one authorized dealer told me there is a much higher/rigid standard to become an authorized Carrier dealer vs. Bryant. Although they both require the same specialized training overall and NATE certification. His company won the President's Award four years running, so his statement holds some weight.

I personally compare it to making a pizza, where the ingredients and equipment might be identical, but the results between two piemakers are very different. You have a greater chance of getting a better pie with Carrier.

Not to be disagreeable but I totally disagree with that broad brush post above.

Show me some empirical evidence to support that. The fact is you can't.

TD

Part of the problem of the HVAC industry are oblique, incomplete and just plain factually incorrect statements. Although with what exactly are you in disagreement with Tigerdunes? Not quite sure.

Hmmm.... interesting, I just had one in-home quote cancelled from a Carrier/Climatemaster authorized dealer. They stopped doing geothermal this year. After 3 years of Greenspeed installs, they felt geothermal doesn't represent nearly the same value in my region and far more upfront costs.

A second Climatemaster geothermal installer called this morning and said they're booked till August, if I do decide on a geothermal installation with them. I'm hoping to get an estimate from him soon.

Anyhow, I'm starting to think it makes more sense to go with the Greenspeed for a year and gauge the savings. Then take the upfront costs of geothermal and invest them instead in solar, either leasing or owning. ConEd is actually allowing net metering now and is launching an initiative this year to increase solar installs and eliminate red tape delays

This post was edited by bsmith on Mon, Apr 21, 14 at 13:07

I am going to get a Bryant quote to compare. Will post when I get it.

Sounds good zeke.

Just to clarify a few things. I truly believe an excellent HVAC system is less about the equipment and way more about the installer. You could easily take a 18SEER system and turn it into a 13SEER.

Secondly, there's no President's Award for Bryant, which is basically one way that Carrier incentivizes good dealers and their installs with perks... huge difference.

Thirdly, Bryant's rebate program is way less funded than Carrier's. Therefore some dealers might try to cut corners in order to provide a better value over a Carrier system.

You are definitely going to get a different install based on whether you purchase Carrier or Bryant. Good or bad? That remains to be seen.

Anyway, all of the Bryant dealers in my area are energy providers with a secondary focus on HVAC installs. Bryant also only ended up being a few $100 less in total. Made my decision easier.

For those following this thread and the above post, above is pure nonsense.

What is the difference between Carrier's Presidential Award and Bryant's Medal of Excellence?

Look for Factory Authorized Dealer (FAD) and NATE certified, way more important than a company marketing awards ploy.

IMO

First of all tigerdunes, the Internet needs less rhetoric, not more, a polite disagreement will suffice. I was told some of this info by not one but two engineers and owners of their respective companies. They likely have more experience than a handful of us combined.

I know the President's Award was established around 2007, the Bryant Medal must have come later. Just to give you an idea, there isn't a single such Medal dealership in my area.

It's an either or proposition, and I pretty sure it makes sense to become a dealer for the brand with way better exposure.

Anyhow, the Carrier Greenspeed has a better cabinet and is noticeably quieter and will better withstand the elements. This could be a deciding factor to some.

This post was edited by bsmith on Tue, Apr 22, 14 at 16:55

Manufacturers' awards, seals, Silver Club, etc. as are given to businesses that sell their products, are usually based on sales volume and little else. Some "factory authorized" suppliers get good because they have high volume, some have high volume without being good, it's irrevent in most cases.

bsmith, I'm going to guess that where you live is more describable as a small town/rural setting than as a large city. If so, that's why your choices are limited. If not, you just may have the bad luck of living where competent and knowledgeable HVAC contractors are scarce.

I entered my NJ zip code on the dealer search page of the Carrier web site. A list of 24 dealers appear. Of those dealer 8 of them are President's Awards winners. A one third ratio does not seem it is a very exclusive club. These type of awards have a heavy emphasis on the annual sales of the dealer.

I took a look at the product data sheets for the Carrier Greenspeed and the Bryant Extreme. The first thing you notice is that it is the same document. The only thing that is change are the words Carrier, Bryant and the photos of the unit. On page 7 of each document are the sound specifications. You will notice that every value is the same for both units. The data does not show one is noticeably quieter than the other.

Both cabinets have a bake-on finish. One is called DuraGurad and the other is Weather Armor Ultra. Both of these name have been trade marked.

I've stood next to each unit, the Greenspeed is quieter enough to be noticeable. I might even have to get out my sound meter. The award is based on both volume sales and customer satisfaction. We're talking about businesses both around since the early sixties, which is an accomplishment that can't be gotten without satisfaction/word of mouth. Didn't say it was an exclusive club. Apples and oranges, not Mercedes vs. Yugo.

This post was edited by bsmith on Tue, Apr 22, 14 at 18:19

Again, the above post is nonsense.

If following this thread, please disregard the comments from this poster. He is obviously not a pro in the HVAC business and is just offering an uninformed opinion from a novice.

TD

Do you have an engineering degree tigerdunes? Because I have known plenty of HVAC dealers with trade school experience and very little practical knowledge about equipment they are installing/servicing and don't like questions directed their way.

Meanwhile this work is not rocket science and the Internet is forcing dealers to get better informed and become more transparent, otherwise plumbers might be in the waiting to take their business.

As for the Copeland's variable speed life expectancy, it's theoretically possible for a brushless DC motor to outlive most other heatpumps by many years, another thing to consider.

The Carrier product also offers more rebates than than the Bryant, and this could effect how both are pushed and priced by your dealer. I actually had several Bryant quotes that were almost 10% higher than the Carrier in my area.

And yes, the internals are likely 100% the same, the housing is clearly different between the Carrier and Bryant especially near the top grill... this could easily affect the sound characteristics of the unit.

"bsmith, I'm going to guess that where you live is more describable as a small town/rural setting than as a large city. If so, that's why your choices are limited. If not, you just may have the bad luck of living where competent and knowledgeable HVAC contractors are scarce."

I live in the heart of NYC and have now gotten ten quotes including Carrier, Bryant and geothermal. This is how I have formed my opinion, which is extremely relevant to the topic.

Anyhow, knowledgeable HVAC contractors are scarce, period. Most are probably content not even bothering with load calculations, simply dropping an identically sized unit into the same area with existing leaky ductwork and calling it a day. The industry has hardly changed since I last went HVAC shopping ten years ago, except now the push is for ductless.

This post was edited by bsmith on Sat, Apr 26, 14 at 7:13

I just got Bryant quote. With rebates there is a difference of $1400 with Bryant being cheaper. I have gotten a solid recommendation on the Carrier installer. The Bryant installer has good Angie's list reviews but don't know much more about them.

From prior experience I know installation can be variable so leaning towards the Carrier but also considering waiting until the upstairs unit goes as I have my downstairs unit as a backup.

You're very lucky. I got my third Bryant quote, and it's $1000 more (after rebates) than the identical Carrier. I have personally found Carrier dealers (with the exception of one) to be way more knowledgeable than the Bryant.

Yet, I would probably go with any Bryant dealer with good Angie list reviews for $1400 less, as long as s/he allowed a very hands-on homeowner approach. I personally vetted contractors by asking very pointed questions.

In the end, I went with the dealer who wanted to work with my needs and answered all of my questions in a timely fashion, someone who was willing to do everything by code without any shortcuts.

The dealer who's booked for weeks in advance is usually the one you want. Not the one that calls/e-mails every few days asking if you have seen the contract and is desperate for work. :)

One other thing to consider on the loop is I believe the warranty on the pipe can be as high as 50 years. Of course replacement cost would probably not be included but it stands to reason that if installed properly and with plenty of bentonite it will more than pay for itself. I wonder what the rates will be in 50 years..

Just got off the phone with the Bryant dealer. I asked him what he would recommend, the 16 or 20 SEER unit to replace my second floor heat pump. He felt not much savings being the second floor unit, he stated if 1st floor would definitely recommend the 20 SEER. He also states he suspends the air handler in the attic, ours is currently on a platform sitting on the joists.

Curious what others think about the above?

The advice the Bryant dealer you makes no sense to me. The second floor will have the higher heat load so you want the more efficient AC on the second floor and not the first.

The other question is what is the price difference between the 16 and 20 SEER units? Depending on your electric rate and location it may not be worth the extra money.

The price difference is about $2000. My AC bills in the summer are not bad, it is the heating that is about 2-3x the AC. So his point is that using a more efficient unit for heating is going to get me more bang for my buck then for AC.

Absolutely depends on the price difference.

I personally think a 15-16 SEER HP is a better value than the 20+ SEER which rarely has that AHRI rating anyway.

If going GreenSpeed you want to pay attention to the AHRI HSPF efficiency rating. That's what you are paying for and that's where the bang for the buck is. You want 12-13 HSPF.

Now if going conventional air source heat pump, for your location, I would stay away from Carrier/Bryant and look at Trane especially for their electronic demand defrost feature which Carrier and Bryant do not offer.

Thoroughly confused? Sorry. Come back with questions. And I will say again, the Carrier GreenSpeed and Bryant Extreme HPs are the same except for cabinetry assuming equipped with same FE air handler. Despite what others might say.

Both have had noise related issues just so you know.

IMO

The 16 SEER is 8.5 HSPF and the 20 SEER is 13 HSPF.

"And I will say again, the Carrier GreenSpeed and Bryant Extreme HPs are the same except for cabinetry assuming equipped with same FE air handler. Despite what others might say."

First of all, you have a bias against my opinions and try to discredit me while yourself having poor reading comprehension.

I wrote this, âÂÂThe Evolution is around 98% identical, the performance is 100% the same to the Greenspeed.â How does my opinions/facts even differ from yours? I go on to say only the cabinet is different. We can agree to disagree where the differences lie. Again, whereâÂÂs the beef?

IâÂÂm sure lots of people appreciate your well-intentioned 'expert' advice you give here, maybe even those not knowing any better. Except what are your credentials? You still havenâÂÂt answered as to whether you have an engineering degree.

From reading your (at times) very definitive advice, you seem like an average well-intentioned homeowner with a passion for HVAC. Just keep on posting those IMOs.

Been here since 06, and plan on posting here for many years to come. :)

Zeke67, I'm in the same boat as you. There are more choices than ever and you want the best money value.

Except you can cull enough Internet info to become your own expert.

I personally would use these two calculators. They are professional tools, one of which is used by my Carrier dealer every day.

Carrier installation cost calculator
http://sagoro.wrightsoft.com/Carrier/Default.aspx

http://www.tools.carrier.com/greenspeed/

Here's the installation manual
ftp://ftp.mingledorffs.com/Tech_Service/Variable-Speed-HP/Bryant-Evolution-Extreme-Training-Manual.pdf

So far, the Greenspeed and brand new Sunrise windows are exceeding my expectations. In the same 4 month billing period last year, I used 4160kwh vs 1950kwh this year, or 53% savings. Granted this summer was much milder than last year.

However the real test will come this winter. So far, I was nicely surprised at the volume of hot air generated and the stingy amount of energy used. Yesterday cost me $1.23 to heat my home (67F day/60F night during a 50F average temp day.

If you plan to reside there less than 10 years neither. More than 10 Geothermal. The loop system will last through multiple systems usually and the unit is almost always out of the weather.

Just read through this thread... so much BS posted. The Evolution Extreme does not have "a better compressor" than the Greenspeed. Engineering degree? Give me a break! Someone with an engineering degree and no practical experience would be eaten alive by this trade, or any trade for that matter.

This post was edited by hvtech42 on Sat, Oct 25, 14 at 15:39

Does anybody know if this is correct.

ClimateMasterâÂÂs relationship with the Carrier corporation ended on May 11, 2014. As a result, on May 12, ClimateMaster stopped building Carrier/Bryant-branded residential geothermal units.
ClimateMaster distributors will now process warranties and sell parts for Carrier/Bryant residential geothermal units built by ClimateMaster.

That is posted on ClimateMaster's own website... if that's not correct, I don't know what would be.

The more interesting question is, who's building Carrier's geothermal HP's now?

"Just read through this thread... so much BS posted. The Evolution Extreme does not have "a better compressor" than the Greenspeed. Engineering degree?"

That wasn't the claim. The Greenspeed and Evolution Extreme indeed have identical innards yet obvious differences in cabinetry, just based on the pictures. Some say the Greenspeed is housed and dampened slightly better from vibration, but that remains unproven.

UPDATE: The Greenspeed is working better than anticipated this winter in the New York. The decision to upsize by a ton was completely prudent. The unit has no problem getting a differential of 41F degrees, even down into the teens.

The unit only makes slightly more noise when temps drops below 15 degrees, especially if I don't lower the heat during the night. So far, I've saved approximately 50% for both my heating and cooling. Today, I had to allow access to the utility co, so they could adjust my bill from oil to the heatpump. Otherwise the automated reporting system wouldn't allow me to input such historically low numbers.

âÂÂUPDATE: The Greenspeed is working better than anticipated this winter in the New York. The decision to upsize by a ton was completely prudent.âÂÂ

As I was the first and likely am still the only one openly advocating upsizing Greenspeed by 1-ton, IâÂÂm glad to read this vindication of what I know to be true by virtue of real world experience in very cold climate.

Those living in cold climates ought to take note of this post!

I visited a Greenspeed installation in my neighbourhood this weekend when the temperature was -1F. The Greenspeed was still very quite, as in acceptably quiet even for air-conditioning.

Seems like Carrier is getting their act together with regards to this series now that it has been out in the field for a couple of years.

If you are choosing this route over geothermal in cold climate due to up front cost of geothermal - up size Greenspeed by 1-ton!

IMPO (In My Professional Opinion)

SR

I tried to match a heating design temp of 12F/-11.1C, which is within the normal lowest single temperature for this region. Currently the polar vortex has the temp at 3F/-16F without any problem keeping my 2100sqft house above 70F/21C.

I've noticed that only below 8F/-13.3 does the heatpump needs to work at 100% and the fan ramps up to 6400rpm and beyond. At that point I do need to turn down the compressor fanspeed to 6000rpm, otherwise it gets slightly loudish. Therefore I'd say 4-ton is a perfect match for me.

As for the power draw.... at 100% and 6400rpm, the system was drawing 6058W. At 100% and 6000cfm, the system was drawing 5510W. And at 100% and 5600rpm, the system was drawing 5171W.

I even recorded the unit at 100% and 6400rpm, 6000rpm, 5700rpm from approximately five feet away. I'll upload the sound files if anyone's interested.

Fsq4cw / bsmith,

How does the 1 tone oversize affect cooling? Doesn't it affect the humidity removal since it would run shorter cycles?

The Greenspeed is variable speed and can go as low as 50% of operation for cooling, so 4-ton can become a 2-ton during the summer. Indoor humidity remained a perfect 45-50% throughout the summer. I could have even made the unit operate 40% humidity by setting dehumidification at COMFORT, but the air was too dry for me.

David:

Greenspeed is fully variable
between 40% to 100% capacity so 4ton can become less than 2ton and just over
1-1/2ton. Variable speed compressor & blower handle cooling perfectly, with
the Infinity controller Ideal Humidity level can also be selected. Too bad the
EXV only works in heating mode. Perhaps later generations will have EXV for
both heating & cooling.

Previous poster is confusing
cfm with rpm! 6400cfm would blow the fur off your cat and the feathers off your
bird – not to mention the NOISE!

Power draw figures are also
interesting as my 3-1/2ton geothermal unit draws about 3.65kW Total, if memory
services me correctly.

IMO

SR

Weird. I'll change everything over to rpm as to not confuse. That's what happens when you are trying to convey too many things on the fly. Also only the 4-ton goes from 40-100% cooling capacity, the 5-ton is from 50-100%. For some reason, in heating mode the 4-ton goes slightly lower at 47-100%. Btw, the largest power draw I've seen is at 6400W with everything maxed, but it was only for a few minutes during a 7 degree afternoon. Again, those numbers are atypical and wattage usually averages 2000-3500W with normal temps, for instance this afternoon at 32F.

“Only the 5-ton goes from 40-100% cooling capacity, the 4-ton is
from 50-100%.”

Where might this be referenced? I have not seen nor heard this before.
It sounds like a programming limitation only.

SR

The 4 and 5 ton share the same compressor and can only lower to 24,000btu, which equates to 50 and 40 percent respectively. The same for the 2 and 3 ton, which can only lower to 12,000btu.

I have actually compared notes with a Greenspeed 3-ton (25VNA036A) owner and indeed her unit goes down to 40%. Interestingly enough in heating mode my compressor is able to reduce capacity to 47%.

Technically the 3 and 5 ton can be reverted into a 2 and 3 ton with the absence of a single part.

This is great news that the wrinkles are getting ironed out on this technology. The infinitely variable speed compressor technology will become more common and less expensive and I think versions of it will eventually be found in many other conventional heat pump and geothermal applications also. Even if my conventional 3 ton 15.5 seer had a true variable compressor and was sized at 4 tons it would be more than capable of heating my home with no strip help down to zero or a little below which is very rare for more than a few hours on a dozen or so nights a year here. The technology will get better for the Greenspeed style units and eventually more heat pumps will adopt similar technology also and Geothermal will also make leaps and bounds. I still really like the thought of conventional geothermal and having all of my hvac in a controlled environment like my basement.

My biggest criticism of Greenspeed is more a comment against forced air in an attic environment. However it would have cost me twice as much to resituate existing ductwork in the basement. there's still some heatloss even though I have the ducts airtight and overinsulated .

Meanwhile - on the plus side - my old oversized gas furnace 100K BTU (albeit 60% efficient) takes twice as long to warm up by 5-10 degrees. Yet - on the downside - I do notice the need to increase the thermostat 1-2 degrees higher to achieve the same feeling of warmth compared to radiated heat.

In fairness, I did have crude humidifiers (which I maintained daily) built onto my radiators vs. no humidification on the Greenspeed. The lack of humidity does decrease the proper transfer of heat. So perhaps installing humidification will close the gap between my old furnace and new heatpump.

Otherwise the Greenspeed is ready for primetime in my opinion. And with the newest Copeland compressor about to be introduced into the Greenspeed things should get even better.

Overall, I'd rate my experience to date a 9 out of 10 based on the quality of the installation and the equipment itself. Personally I like having an all-in-one almost set-it-and-forget-it system. I'll keep my boiler as backup for a few years, but don't miss the monthly maintenance.

Re: bmith 23

All my dealer technical data originating from the Carrier
Corporation indicates that all models of Greenspeed are capable of modulating
between 40% & 100%.

I have not seen, read or
otherwise heard that ‘some do, some don’t’!

IMPO

SR

What is the annual maintenance cost / needs for both GeoThermal and the Greenspeed? Obviously filters for the forced air, what else?

As per my geo manual, clean filter when needed, check air coil and clean as needed. Anything else is just keeping an eye on things, such as compressor amperage draw from year to year.