Just to follow-up with some more numbers, I looked at Honeywell's website where they publish pricing for products, and the TH311 is listed at 63.30 and the TH411 is listed at 76.63. Would love it if anybody could offer some insight as to why HVAC guy's quote for upgrading from TH311 to TH411 is a whopping $125. I suspect if I ask him he'll say they have to connect an extra wire somewhere.

That price is almost too good to be true... I'd be very weary of the quality of work this company is going to do at that price. They probably have the old 10 SEER that they are giving you at a very low price. That's a Lennox model number for the coil. Get a few more quotes.

I agree it seemed low. I don't know if it's the builder's relationship with the hvac guy, or that labor costs are in the toilet due to the economy here, or what.

I will have hvac guy confirm the coil model number. It was on the original spec quote, which had that 10 SEER on it, which the builder then said was supposed to be 13 SEER. Runaround...

You want at least this setup: Bryant 123ANA CAPVU042 -- $400. Don't accept the 561 for your home--poor coil protection and old stock.

Definitely go for a furnace with a variable-speed blower: Bryant 355CAV or 355AAV.

Ask for a Bryant TIN-PLATED COPPER coil (has an ATA at the end in the model #). The CAPVU is an uncased coil. I personally prefer cased coils.

If you go with the Bryant Evolution system, go with the Evolution controller.

A media air filter cabinet from Bryant would be nice: FILCAB or EZXCAB.

What kind of ductwork is included? Request insulated metal trunklines with flexible duct connectors, NOT an all-flex system.

I don't want to see you ending up in the same boat as many other new home buyers who get shoddy HVAC work and run into problems a few years in. From the looks of your quote and the confusing options and suspect prices, that's the way it looks. I could have a completely wrong inclination, though. Are you stuck with your builder's HVAC contractor?

Thanks Ryan. I will ask these questions. I talked to him briefly on the phone while I was driving and verified that with the 13 SEER comes the tin-plated copper Bryant coil. I will be sure to get it in writing, however. Will check on the ductwork and request quote on the other Bryant air filters. I was put off by the high cost (to me) of $450 on the Evolution controller (would this be necessary on the 123ANA?) so let me know if that is a reasonable price when added all together:

5950+800+400+450=7600 plus TBD air filter choice

wrt the Evolution controller, do you strongly recommend it over the RiteTemp 8085c? What are the advantages to the Evolution? We have the RiteTemp now and love it. We're not doing zoned hvac, and 2-stage ac is indeed overkill.

We're not necessarily stuck with him, nothing is set in stone, but this is our first option and we'll move to plan B if necessary.

oppsie

a Bryant Evolution furnace without the Evolution controller would be a waste. and the $450 price for the Evolution controller is very reasonable.

and I would definitely upgrade the 123ANA to the 165A Preferred 15 AC. If you have reasonable electric rate, you might even consider the Preferred 15 HP model for dual fuel.

IMO

If you have the Evolution furnace, I would suggest going with the Preferred series a/c or h/p 165A/265A with the Evolution control. The 123A/223A can't interface with the Evolution system. The Evolution has a variable-speed blower, which is nice to have. If you don't go with the Evolution system (which could also include the Evolution series 2-stage a/c or h/p), then I would go with a Honeywell FocusPRO or VisionPRO thermostat and forget the others.

Thanks. Hvac guy is checking on the 165A -- he says he doesn't think Bryant offers that in the Detroit area. So our option there would only be the 187ANA, I believe.

Thanks for the further tstat advice. Based on some info I just got from the builder (he is picking up the cost ($600) of the 13 SEER 123ANA) it may make more sense and be within our upgrade budget to move to the 187ANA and the Evolution tstat. I'd just hate to overkill things with a 2-stage ac that we don't need, though. Hmm.

Also could you elaborate on the Bryant media filters vs the HE2000? The electronic sounded attractive given that you just wash and don't replace the filter. Interested in hearing arguments for/against.

The ideal system for you, in my opinion, would consist of the following. I will assume your contractor's sizing is accurate. It looks like the base quote uses all old-stock equipment. As for the filter, a media air filter is sufficient in most cases. They are typically replaced 1-2 times a year. If you wanted an electronic filter, be prepared to maintenance it to clean the collection cells regularly. I'd go for the media filter personally. Some don't like the fact that the electronic filters (or most of them, as some claim they produce none) ozone, a lung irritant. Electronic filters aren't the only electronic devices that produce ozone, though... Bryant's furnaces include a media air filter cabinet I believe... see Bryant's website.

-Bryant 165ANA (I assume A/C isn't a big issue for you) OR Bryant 187ANA
-Bryant 355CAV 3-stage furnace
-Bryant media air filter - FILCAB or EZXCAB
-Bryant Evolution control
-Bryant Power Humidifier

(As you can tell, I like to stick to the same brand...)

AC is definitely an issue for my personal comfort, it's warmer (and more humid) up here in Michigan than most people in other areas think. Our weather is pretty similar to NY/NJ for example. However, I think the 165ANA would be plenty. 2-stage seems to much.

So the CAV is a 3-stage? Interesting. I will have to google more info.

Thank you so much for all the info, I'm sure I will be back with more questions!

Also for the humidifier -- is there a model number on that? I assume you prefer it because it is Bryant -- would the Honeywell HE265 be just as good?

Also if you could provide the coil model number I should be getting would be much appreciated!

oppsie

what is your electric rate?

td

2-stage is for comfort, so it may very well be worth it to you. 2-stage units are good for dehumidification as they run long cycles in low stage. If you don't go with a 2-stage unit, make sure 3.5 tons is the right size. Oversized single-stage systems are not efficient and don't dehumidify as well.

Bryant power humidifier - HUMBBLFP/HUMBBSFP (this is an upflow setup, right?)
Bryant bypass humidifier - HUMBBLBP/HUMBBSBP

As far as the Honeywell vs. Bryant decision goes... I did suggest the Bryant just so everything would "match." I also suggested the Bryant as I believe it is just a rebadged AprilAire.

Coil model number:
(if cased, which I prefer): CNPVP****ATA
(if you have to use uncased for some reason): CNPVU****ATA

Note that the asterisks represent capacity and dimension info that can vary. Sometimes larger coils are used for more efficiency. Many times a setup is rated with more than one coil.

See Bryant's website for more information on the products and model numbers that you should be looking for. Get all model numbers in writing.

Also get the ductwork setup in writing. Number of supplies, number of returns, type of ductwork (rigid metal with flex connectors is what I would recommend), # of trunklines, etc.

tigerdunes, not sure offhand, would have to dig up the bill. We had an ancient heat pump in our current house before replacing it two years ago. I think the general wisdom is that heat pumps are not great in Michigan. At least if heat pump was where you were going with that question.

oppsie

don't judge today's high eff heat pumps like the Performance 15 with your old one. They are as different as night and day. and depending on a reasonable electric rate, they can make a dual fuel worth looking into even for the Detroit area.

IMO

Okay, here's where we're at with hvacguy.

Initial quote: $5950

Includes (stated on initial quote):
rough 7 heats up
duct 15 heats total
3 heats in basement
3 heats over garage
basic furnace/ac/humid/tstat

All ductwork is sheet metal except for bathroom vents (3 vents, 4" tube) and make up air, these are insulated flex ducts.

There are 2 trunklines, supply and return. It is an upflow system.

Bryant 355CAV 80k btu -- $800

hvacguy was adamant that Bryant does not sell the 355BAV into the Detroit market. What is the real world difference between the two in efficiency? I called another hvac company and of course they said they had the 355BAV available. If the BAV is less money and the dropoff from the CAV is not significant this would be a place we would look to save.

Bryant 15 SEER 165ANA -- $650
Bryant Power Humidifier (HUMBBLFP or HUMBBLSP) -- $450
Bryant FILCAB -- $225 (or Trion Air Bear for same cost he said both are MERV 8)
Bryant EZXCAB -- needs to get price for me (MERV 10 if I am reading bryant.com correctly)
Evolution tstat -- $450
Cased coil CAPVP -- $150

He gave his reason for going with uncased coil because since it is new construction the cased coil would have to be installed with the ductwork, and then if the furnace is used during building it can get all sorts of sawdust and whatever in it. The uncased coil can be installed later in the process. We are building in the fall and they hopefully would not need the furnace while building -- what is the advantage of cased over uncased other than sound dampening?

So add-on total: $2725 (will be higher for EZXCAB -- do I need this or is FILCAB okay?)

Total HVAC cost: $8675, builder picks up the standard quote cost so we are responsible for the extra $2725. I'll be riding him on price since we're buying all this extra stuff, and I assume there will be some sort of Bryant rebate appearing in September if past years are any indication?

Thanks for your continued advice, looking forward to reaction Very likely I will have the builder bid this with another hvac company, but who knows what kind of special relationship he has with this one...

I don't think it matters what kind of filter you use in the FILCAB as long as it's the correct size. It's just that, a filter cabinet. Did your builder/contractor do any sort of Manual J load calculation to determine sizing? This is certainly something to ask. Your price sounds good for new construction. Some replacements can get as high as that and up. Most likely your builder has a good relationship with this contractor, hence the low pricing. Sheet metal ducts are good. Flex here or there isn't a problem if done right. In fact, if the connectors to the registers were flex duct that wouldn't bother me either. You're list above is good. Don't forget about the ATA tin-plated coil as discussed above. Also, any reason for the A coil? Once you finalize the model numbers and quotes, we can see which style will give better performance numbers. I'm seeing a lot of N coils (CNPVP****ATA) installed with Carrier/Bryant. Sounds like your contractor is working with you well. How many return ducts? Ask about the 355AAV. I'm not sure what the difference is between that and the 355BAV. They are both listed as the same product per Bryant's website. I would be fine with either, but the 3 stages of the 355CAV are good to have. Ask your contractor if the filter cabinet comes with the furnace. It just might--if I'm reading Bryant's website correctly.

I think I just pulled the coil number I saw from bryant.com. I will make sure hvacguy provides me with the exact model he will be installing. What are your thoughts on his cased vs uncased argument?

I will ask about the 355AAV. Bryant's website states 96.6 AFUE for the AAV and 95 AFUE for the BAV. Different coatings, AAV is "4-way multipoise" (greek to me!) and the BAV is upflow. Interestingly the CAV is also rated at 95 AFUE.

Should have read more carefully about the FILCAB -- looks like yes you can get whatever MERV rated filter you want. So what's the advantage of the EZXCAB I wonder? So many choices!

I have the returns on his quote sheet, I think, but I'm traveling today. Will check tomorrow.

His uncased argument makes sense, but he can wait to install the cased coil as well. Cased coils are better in my opinion and easier to service. If you have to have your coil looked at for a leak or to check metering device, it will be encased in sheet metal. Also ask about the fact that Bryant's website seems to imply that a filter cabinet is included with the furnace. Maybe someone who installs Carrier/Bryant can confirm.

Will do. I have a feeling we'll go with the cased (mostly because I value your judgment!) especially since this whole thing should hopefully be settled and framing beginning in the next week or two. And because we can rationalize it with the presumed rebate that will crop up in September. Crossing fingers on that one.

If you're talking about the $1000 rebate from Bryant, that's usually a summer thing. Is there another rebate that you were informed about?

oppsie

Carrier/Bryant normally have rebates/incentives on their high end HVAC in the spring and the fall. however, I don't believe rebates are available to the homeowner on new construction. i suggest you ask your GC about this.

IMO

The plot thickens! I just got around to checking my fax machine at work (was out of office for a few days) and found a quote waiting for me with the updated specs. Hvacguy increased the ductwork price by $1k. Huh?? Builder will address this with him or maybe you guys can explain this logic to me.

Here's the whole thing:

Vent Plus 90 -- 1
Baths to vent outdoors -- 3
Make up air kit -- 1
Dryer vent complete -- 1
355CAV048080 -- 1
165ANA042 3.5 ton -- 1
CNPV042 -- 1
SYSTBBUID01 -- 1 (assuming typo of SYSTXBBUID01)
HUMBBLFP -- 1
FILCAB024 -- 1
Rough heats up -- 7
Duct heats total -- 15
Heats in basement -- 3
Heats over garage -- 3
Cutting of heats -- 1
Install thermostat wire -- 1

Rough billing -- $1000
Ductwork billing -- $5000
Final billing -- $3675

TOTAL $9675

Lifetime parts warranty on furnace heat exchanged
10 year parts warranty on a/c compressor
5 year warranty on all Bryant parts
1 year parts and labor warranty on the complete installation

1. The coil doesn't specify whether it's cased or uncased, or if it's tin-plated copper, which is preferred. This should have a ten-year parts warranty. "If it's not written in the proposal, it was never discussed."
2. Any information on the number of return air grilles? Very important to have proper return air.

Good setup at a good price for full installation.

BTW, according to government regulations, as of Jan 2006 all new units sold (not just manufactured but sold) must be at least SEER 13. I dont know how they are getting around the regulations on your unit to sell you a SEER 10 unit, but I suppose there must be some loophole. From the loopholes I have seen, they only apply to existing construction and not new construction...

dpjones,

read the bottom of this thread -- we are up to 15 SEER and the base was moved to 13 SEER. Although I feel bad for the poor suckers in the house next door (same builder, already built as opposed to mine) that have a nice fat 10 SEER unit hooked up. I think it's more a function of hvacguy dumping old stock than the builder going cheap. Shows who does their homework and who doesn't, I guess. IE not my new neighbors. :)

ryanhughes,

thanks for the comments on the price. Will work to get a full model number on the coil (needs to be CNPVP***ATA right? Wish Bryant went that far on their website but doesn't seem that they do) onto the quote and won't rest until it is there. I did a visual check of returns at the built house next door and it looked like 1/per room except great room had two iirc. What should I be looking for?

btw forgot to mention in response to an earlier question -- hvacguy based sizing off of square footage of house/architect plans. Should I be requesting they do a manual J when far enough along in the process (not sure if this is possible; but they could probably do it on the house next door, which is identical to ours except for a couple extra small windows in the kitchen and a few wall position tweaks)? Does 80k/3.5ton sound inappropriate?

No way should a system be sized off of square footage, especially for new construction. A room by room load calculation (Manual J) needs to be done to determine the total heat load and heat loss and the required conditioned air to each room. This is a corner that should not be cut. Windows, home orientation, insulation, etc. all play a role in your system's sizing.

The CNPVP****ATA is what you should be looking for -- cased, tin-plated copper.

Thanks ryan. I will insist on a manual J once the walls are up, insulation is blown and windows are in. Do I need to be concerned about the warranties as listed? afaik they are sourced from Bryant other than hvacguy's 1 year overall warranty.

Warranties look fine, but again I think the CNPVP****ATA coil has a 10-year limited warranty.

One more observation:

Most of the time, a change in sizing will involve an alteration to the ductwork design, size, etc.

So in order for this to be done in the right order the ductwork has to go in after the framing, insulation, windows, ... ? I'll check with the builder to see what their current order is. Probably not that, knowing him.

They need to take all of the building factors and do a Manual J load calculation to size the system. Then they need to design the ductwork and size it according to a Manual D calculation. Some people don't take the time to do them.

Gotcha. I will pass this along to the builder for him to have hvac guy do.

I spoke to hvac guy about the $400 overrun vs the over-the-phone/options fax estimate (turns out it is not $1k -- $600 of that is the builder's problem for the 13 SEER base upgrade). He said that $200 of that came from needing to add 120v wiring to the power humidifier since it does not run off the furnace fan. We didn't specifically get to the other $200 as he stated that FILCAB was $450, and EZXCAB was $275. FILCAB is what was in the quote. So after a $40 MERV10 filter for EZXCAB we're now at $10 less than the upgraded quote. Interesting, especially since he previously said FILCAB was $225 -- and I had to set him straight that FILCAB could only take MERV8 filters from what I understand. I'll make sure the builder also gets a competing quote. And I am getting the complete model number of the coil in writing, of course.

One last (hahaha famous words) questions -- so, we're between the EZXCAB (275) and the cabinet that comes with the furnace. The basic cabinet can do MERV8 filters. Do we really need MERV10? In what case would we regret not having the next level filter?

Thanks.

Are you sure the other cabinet can't do MERV 10 filters? I think it's just a cabinet that you can put any filter in, but I could be wrong. What does your HVAC guy think?

I asked him for the precise model numbers of the EZXCAB and the basic cabinet. We'll see what he says. I think the builtin only does 1" while EZXCAB takes 4" -- does this matter much? Does it mean you're changing filters more often?

go with the EZXCAB that takes the larger MERV 10 filter and can last up to one yr before changeout unless you want to change the 1" filters every mth or every other mth.

IMO

More followup. Got off the phone with hvacguy who called his buddy at Bryant (finally). The filter cabinet that the 355CAV comes with takes the same 4" filters as EZXCAB, so no loss of MERV10 capability. From what I understand the EZXCAB has a higher weight support rating which isn't relevant in our situation. So, I think we're there, and dropped the price $450 to boot.

We talked more about the Manual J and the likelihood of size changing based on the results for the furnace is very low; however it might change for the a/c (currently 3.5 tons) but he is getting updated insulation info from the builder that may answer that question anyway and knock it down to 3 tons. So I may back off on the Manual J. They don't do it in my town because it is not required by code, so it would cost a few hundred dollars on top of everything to have done.

Here is the latest. Looking good I think:

Vent Plus 90 -- 1
Baths to vent outdoors -- 3
Make up air kit -- 1
Dryer vent complete -- 1
355CAV042080 -- 1
165ANA042 3.5 ton -- 1
CNPVP4221ATA -- 1
SYSTBBUID01 -- 1 (assuming typo of SYSTXBBUID01)
HUMBBLFP -- 1
Bryant Media Air Cleaner (comes with furnace) -- 1
Rough heats up -- 7
Duct heats total -- 15
Heats in basement -- 3
Heats over garage -- 3
Cutting of heats -- 1
Install thermostat wire -- 1

TOTAL $9225

Lifetime parts warranty on furnace heat exchanger
10 year parts warranty on a/c compressor
5 year warranty on all Bryant parts
1 year parts and labor warranty on the complete installation

wow, this is a great thread. If I can butt in...

I'm looking at the 355CAV with 113ANA. The thinking is it will take quite a while to recoup the costs of a higher AC unit (126BNA was quoted). I'm in mid-Michigan, so the Detroit OP made for great discussion. We don't use the AC that much. We're usually comfortable with ceiling fans except for really hot muggy days.

Q: If I got this, is there any advantage to the Evolution controller if the AC isn't Evolution system? I'm looking at the Bryant Setback Thmostat

I'm also looking at the Bryant Humidifier HUMBBLBP2217

And Bryant MACPAC Air Cleaner.

Any other thoughts here?