Thanks, garyg! I am in Columbia, MD, very near to you. I am getting mixed reviews on Goodman: on the one hand, I hear the system is fine, on the other hand, that it is not as good as the "big names." Then I hear that installation is all--it doesn't matter what you buy as long as the install is good. I think there is something to the latter. I would LOVE to spend $3700; I've gotten (so far) ballpark estimates of high $5000s to low $6000s (from one contractor) and $4000s to $5000s (from another contractor). Unfortunately, I do not think I can wait til fall, though I know already that I could save because of the season. Thank you for the input.

homeowner

The best overall system would be Carrier/Bryant with their Infinity/Evolution models and sophisticated controls. Of course these systems come with a nice price.

If not the above, then I would look at the Trane/AmStd HP models. I suggest you include a matching var spd air handler for max eff and improved dehumification.

And while others might disagree, I would not have a GoodMan heat pump.

IMO

Sue:

On April 30th, I got 3 quotes from Blevins Heating and Cooling, Chuchville, MD (410-838-3636) for 3-ton Trane heat pump systems:

- $4500 for an XB13 13 SEER
- $4600 for an XR13 13 SEER
- $5400 for an XL14I 14 SEER

All quotes included a variable speed air handler, 15 kilowatt electric back-up strips, mounting pad for outside unit, labor and misc materials.

I'm not sure if their prices have gone up since it is now their busy season.

Also, FYI: American Standard makes Trane. American Standard heat pumps may be cheaper than Trane because they don't spend $$ advertising to the public.

The more quotes you get, the better informed you become.

Whichever brand you get, have them give you a 10 year PARTS AND LABOR warranty for your peace of mind.

Take care.

homeowner

Good post by garyg and pricing very good. I would stay away from the XB13 model and add the XR14. I suggest you look into Am Std's Heritage 14 or Heritage 15-might be a little less expensive. Depending on your heat load calculation, I would have the installing dealer stage your electric heat strips. For example,if your dealer says a 10 KW heat strip is required, then ask dealer to install two 5 KW heat strip modules. One negative about Trane and AmStd is their poor stats. I recommend Honeywell VisionPro IAQ. Ask that they throw in the 10 yr parts/labor warranty.

My opinion
Good Luck!

I now have three estimates, two of which I feel comfortable with in terms of quality install/price:

The existing system is 2 1/2 ton so that is what I am looking to replace. All quotes are for R410 refrigerant.

Carrier Comfort25HCA330 (outside unit)
With Carrier Comfort 25HCA330 air handler(13 SEER, standard fan): $4825
With Carrier Performance FV4BNF002 air handler (14 SEER, variable speed): $5425
This estimate is from Environmental Systems Associates in Columbia and includes adjustments to sheet metal inside the house (lower positioning of inside unit to give room for a better "curve" of the venting as it exits the top of the unit), pad/legs outside, etc. I was told that the exterior unit will work with either of the air handlers.

The other quote is from H&C in Laurel:
Lennox XP-15-15 (2.5 ton) exterior unit
Lennox CBX32MV-24/30 air handler (variable speed, 3 ton) (15.2 seer)= $5369
OR
Lennox XP13-30 (2.5 ton) exterior unit
Lennox CBX32MV-24/30 (3 ton) (14 Seer)= $5,087
These quotes include the sheet metal work, new legs & pad, and the other stuff you'd expect.
The Lennox system has more add ons including "better heater"system for another $169.

The third estimate came from Bill Myers whose prices would be a little higher thought not much--he says he can't get the volume discounts of the two larger companies-- and he pushed Goodman (though that non-variable unit was pretty comparable in price to the estimates for the Carrier and Lennox variables!). He warned me off variable speed saying the motors break and are expensive, and he also hates R410 cause he says it leaks.
Not sure what to think: should I get more quotes? I have read posts here --- very good and helpful --- butlots of disagreement even about the big brands as the string here also shows. The prices from everyone even Myers are in about a $600 range of spread, so I am not sure that I will "do better" in terms of price if I keep going.
I am probably (tho not definitely) not keeping this house for long, but would like something that buyers would be pleased to see. And the patched up repair that Bill Myers' technician made to my dying exterior unit makes me nervous though it is operating the system for now--I'd like to make a decision and get the old system out of here. But I don't want to rush into an expensive mistake. I am also torn about variable versus standard. Any insights based on this?

"I am probably (tho not definitely) not keeping this house for long, but would like something that buyers would be pleased to see."

Any new unit, regardless of mfr, would please a future buyer of your home. You have to make sure that "homeownersue" is pleased as you are more important than any future buyer.

"I am also torn about variable versus standard. Any insights based on this?"

TigerD and I disagree on this and that's OK because we disagree in a respectful way without bashing each other. I am just a homeowner but I believe that he is a pro. I have a 3 speed fan in the air handler. I chose this for simplicity and ease of repair. It's a little noisier and costs a little more $$ to run than the variable speed but is much cheaper to repair if it breaks. I believe warranty on the air handler motor is 5 or 10 years depending on sytem manufacturer.

You should go with the installer that you feel is best as the quotes are within reason of each other. I still believe that you should get a 10 year parts and labor warranty regardless of manufacturer.

homeownersue

Sooner rather than later, the var speed blower will become the standard rather than an option whether on an air handler or a furnace. Here are the benefits with var speed:

1.quieter=no comparison
2.better dehumidification in AC mode
3.electric savings particularly if you like to run the fan in "on" position
4.better indoor air quality if system is equipped with an air filtration cabinet
5.improved room to room temp constancy

Yes, it costs more and is more expensive to repair if not covered by a warranty but the option of var speed is coming down in price. Will you notice the comfort difference? You betcha! There is no empirical evidence that var speed is more prone to failure vs conventional speed blowers. Most of the mfgs use the GE ECM var spd motor.

The only place I would use a conventional blower would be rental property, business property, or if I knew I was only going to be in home for a few yrs. More people shopping for a home are becoming savvy to this option.

Now to your quotes. I still believe Trane is a superior choice to those you listed. However, I would not have the Carrier Comfort series and my preference would be the Lennox XP15. One suggestion. Ask about the XP14-it has a better HSPF heating rating but you do lose a little SEER eff. Should be a little less expensive as well.

The statements made by Mr Myers are just nonsense.

IMO

Here is a link that might be useful: Lennox HPs

Garyg and TigerD,

A question which might help this homeowner. I know that variable speed will use less energy generally than traditional motors. But, what about the effect of increased static in the ducts causing the variable speed motor to use more energy to maintain programmed CFM? Could that offset the expected energy savings?

jdb

Tigerdunes and Garyg,
Thank you both--this is so helpful. Re: negotiating awarranty, I can get two years full on parts and labor now from the two leading contenders (ESA agreed to do this for me because they are confident the Carrier systems will be fine and so it is little risk to them). I guess I could buy a longer warranty from either mfr but I won't be here in 10 years, I feel very confident!! I am leaning toward ESA (Carrier) because I am more confident of a better install. The ones tigerdunes suggests sound like more expensive models and I think these prices I have gotten in my estimates are about as high as I'd like to be going. I couldn't get a Trane installer in here for an estimate (that I would trust; there are a few that I have heard bad install outcomes on and forget them).
Re: the input on variable versus standard blower is very helpful to me and I thank you both. My only remaining fear on variable rate is the electronic components being susceptible to power surges (true of any major electronic in the home -- I lost a computer from a power survey a few years back, even though a plug-in surge protector was in place; plus the cable hookup on exterior of house has had surge issues a few times though grounded).
Tigerdunes, why do you not like Carrier Comfort line (it would be the exterior unit in my proposal no matter which air handler I select)?

"I guess I could buy a longer warranty from either mfr but I won't be here in 10 years, I feel very confident!!"

Sue: I'm sure that you can use your bargaining skills to negotiate a 5 year parts and labor warranty. You can even tell the contractor of your choice that this will seal the deal (and even stretch the truth by claiming that their competitor has offerred this to you for x dollars). If the warranty is transferrable to the future home buyer, this will be a feather in your cap when you sell the house.

homeowner

The Lennox quote is a better, superior system to the Carrier quote with the Comfort series heat pump.

Carrier has three quality levels of heat pumps-Infinity, Performance, and the bottom line Comfort Series.

The Lennox HP XP 15 quote is quieter and has better eff ratings-significanly-both SEER and HSPF. The Lennox XP14 HP would even be an acceptable substitute.

This really is a no brainer. You will be making a mistake with the Comfort HP. Go with the Lennox and matching var speed air handler. It's that simple.

IMO

homeowner

BTW, your refrigerant linset must be replaced. This is mandatory. Make certain installing dealer includes this.

TD

Here is a link that might be useful: Lennox HPs

In case anyone is wondering what happened:
I went with the Carrier system with the standard (non-variable speed) blower. I did so because I had the most confidence in the installer of that system (ESA in Columbia). Installation was yesterday morning and seemed to go just fine. They totally redid the duct work in the basement leading in and out of the system, which has resulted in improvements in air flow -- cold air actually BLOWS OUT of the third floor registers! It's a miracle! I always thought the poor blowing was because of a heat pump or old system. Now I know. I also learned about filters--apparently, the very expensive ones block a lot of air and so more electricity is used and system works harder. They recommend the cheap, blue filters, changed once a month. I'm happy with my choice--I don't think I will be here too long and in the meantime I am happy with my "regular" blower. I did spring for the new refrigerant, R410. I think it will be a nice enough touch for the advertisement for the house. Yes, I did have the lineset replaced--this contractor does it as a matter of course. And I did get two years labor and parts--I don't think I'll be around much beyond that. Garyg most wisely said
"You have to make sure that 'homeownersue' is pleased as you are more important than any future buyer." He is right!
Thanks, everyone!!

Sue:

Congratulations and best of luck to you with your new system. You should see your electric bill drop a little.

One small tidbit of advice that I personally follow. I do not like those 99-cent, cheap-o, blue spun fiberglass filters because they allow too much dirt to pass thru and deposit on the coil. Once I got away from using them, my coil was kept clean and I never had to clean it again 3 years after the first cleaning. I agree, most of the pleated filters can be very restrictive, especially the ones that filter down to a gnat's a$$. I use the least restrictive pleated filter that I can buy: NaturalAire Standard MERV 8 pleated filters made by Flanders. The higher the MERV rating, the smaller particles that it filters but the more restrictive the filter. Home Depot has a 3-pack for 7 dollars - that's only $2.33 each. The package says "lasts up to 3 months" but I change them monthly.

Take care.

Garyg, that is great advice about the filters--sounds like a good "middle ground" and I'll look for those filters. Thanks again for all your help!

Rancher in Baldwin area. NEED HELP in replacing my 10 yr old Goodman outside compressor and my 24 yr old Bryant furnace. The Goodman has been giving me trouble for over a year. The repairmen said I would be better off replacing the whole system. Need suggestions on MFGs and Contractors.

A good friend of mine in this area had a Propane heating system installed and kept the heat pump for air conditioning. He likes the warmth of the gas heat. What do you think!! Ed

Ed:

Propane is one of the most expensive heating fuels and, in my opinion, would be a mistake to have as your primary source of heat.

I'm not sure if you mean that you live in Baldwin, MD.

You can use a heat pump for primary heat and have propane as back-up heat, instead of the electric heat strips, if you prefer. The electric strips would be cheaper to buy and probably have the same operating costs for back-up heat.

What kind of fuel does the Bryant furnace use? If it's natural gas, you're crazy for thinking about propane.
Since propane is a by-product of oil and natural gas production, it will always be an expensive heating fuel.

Good luck.

Thank you garyg for your advise. I thought that propane would be expensive to run. After getting three estimates, Pipco hvac co. gave me the best deal with Bryant Evolution heat pump and humidifier. The install went in smooth today in 6hr with three service techs. Best part is that the unit is super quite and they installed ducting for easy filer changing. Ed

Fantatstic, Ed.

Did you get electric strips as back-up heat for the heat pump or go with natural gas or propane?

You picked a mighty cold day for an install.

Best to you.

Tagging along as I'm researching replacing my 14-year old York system...I find many great deals on Goodman via the internet. I have a licensed friend who I can pay to do the install. I'm concerned that I read via Goodman's web site that the warranty is void if it's bought over the internet...anyone have any issues with this? Or are people buying them "in person" and paying separately for the install.
Thanks,
Daryl

Goodman and other manufacturers have policies to void the warranty of any equipment purchased over the internet. Goodman/Amana are the ones that I find readily available online. Does your friend want to provide the warranty? If you want to save, I'd have your friend buy the equipment and install it for you. Will you get a warranty on equipment purchased on the internet despite the policies in effect? Possibly, but if Goodman/Amana knows that you purchased the equipment, there's a good chance that they'll look down on it and not warrant your equipment. Goodman equipment is comparatively inexpensive at wholesale price, so you may not save much by buying it online. Then you'll pay for shipping online.

Thanks Ryan for the good thought-provoking questions. I guess I need to look at purchasing it wholesale from a reputable dealer.
I do have a Trane rep coming this week to give me an estimate from that end of the spectrum as well and I'll probably call the company that originally sold the York all those years ago to give them a shot at the deal as well. It's just that sometimes seeing the huge $$$$ difference begins to make you wonder what you're really paying for.

Some local companies have very reasonable prices, and then you have companies that make considerable profit and have more overhead to pay. You have to consider that paying for things such as vans, gas, materials, labor, office staff, equipment, insurance, etc. all adds up. Wholesalers generally will not sell to the general public (though some Goodman wholesalers may), but your friend, if he is truly licensed, could probably get the equipment.

Thanks again Ryan for the follow-up. If I might trouble you for another opinion: Do you agree w/ the seeming general consensus that most brands are equal and it is the installation/service that makes the difference or would you say there are definitely brands to stay away from?

Personally, I think brands are very similar in many respects given that many parts are outsourced now... coils, compressors, electrical components, etc... Installation is critical to have a properly-functioning system. However, I do believe that some manufacturers build better products and have better engineering.

Good advice from Ryan.

I did something similar to what DaWard is thinking about doing.

I found a local contractor that sells Goodman to the public (York, PA). I specked out the 14 SEER heat pump system myself and picked it up at his warehouse. My wife works for a Property Management company so I used them for the install and paid labor only. Labor had a 1 year warranty and the 10 year parts warranty is covered by Goodman because it is a non-internet sale. Paid $2500 for all equipment (R-22 condenser w/Copeland scroll, 3 speed a/h, TXV, heat strips, by-pass humifier, condenser mounting pad) and $1200 for the install = $3700. Almost $2k less than a Trane 14i.

1 year later and so far outstanding. Reduced my kw consumption by 40% compared to my 21 year-old 7 SEER Trane. Puts out great (and cheap) heat in the winter and I can freeze meat in the family room when its 95F outside.

I will say that I have a few minor issues with my Goodman:
- Sheet metal on hair handler is very flimsy.
- Filter rack in air handler is poorly designed so changing the air filter is a surgical procedure.

I think that the Goodman is a good basic system, with some flimsy sheet metal, but very few systems fail from flimsey sheet metal. If the compressor and coils hold up, the system should last at least 10 years. I'll find out.

Take care.

its doesnt matter what brand you buy!! as longest you buy it from a contractor that has a good reputation and has been in business for at least 30 years or plus, what good is a ten year labor warranteed if the contractor is not there for you tomorrow?, and remember you always get what you pay for, and by the way, goodman company just started in 1982, look at a manufacture that has atleast 100 years in making a/c, quality does not happend over night !!!

I'm in the process of upgrading my heat pump and air handler. I live in Orlando, Fl. What brands would you recommend? What's more important between variable speed air handler versus a 2 stage compressor? I live in a 2 story home. The great room has 1 vent and it seldom cools or warms the front section of the room properly. I was wondering if the ducts had anything to do with this. Thanks for any suggestions.

Our Lennox heat pump unit is 7.5 yrs.old and we have had nothing but repairs since it was installed in our new house. First the fan drum warped, compressor fan seized and had to be replaced, wiring was wrong for all electric, and now compressor coils are leaking and we are being told we might as well replace everything. HELP....we thought we were buying a quality system...boy were we wrong! Now we don't know which way to turn....any suggestions?

Hello all.

I live in Portland Oregon and have a quotation for the following:
45k BTU 2-stage Energi Air 80% AFUE gas furnace with a 2.5 ton 14 SEER Energi Air high efficiency heat pump

Warranty being offered is as follows:
compressor failure within 2 years = free replacement of the entire outdoor unit, heat exchanger failure within 10 years = free replacement of the entire furnace
parts warranty = 10 years
compressor warranty = lifetime (compressor only)
heat exchanger warranty = lifetime (heat exchanger only)
labor warranty = 10 years

My question is: Has anyone here heard of Energi Air Systems and do they know any performance history on them, i.e. repair and replacement frequency, problems, etc.?

I have been told by their company rep that it's a "private label brand name of Goodman and Amana equipment". As it is with most any manufacturer, I'm hearing mixed reviews on Goodman products here.

We live in a 2-story, 1300 sq ft home.

Thanks in advance for any advice/help you may provide.

Dan