Susytwo, starters come in all moisture contents. I like mine watery, around 1:1 flour:water, more like pancake batter than dough. I find it easier to incorporate the other ingredients when the starter's very hydrated. I think the purpose of the sponge is essentially to feed the starter so it's nice and strong for baking the next day.
If you'd rather make the starter and/or the sponge wetter, I think that will work fine, as long as you adjust the bread recipe to get the same proportions in the end. Sometimes not rising much can be caused by dough that's too wet, but without seeing it, it's hard for me to say whether that's the problem. It seems like even if your starter weren't very strong, the yeast would do the job. The only other thing I can suggest is that when I mix the salt and the yeast both into the water before adding the flour, it seems to kill a lot of the yeast, even if I'm quick. Mixing them both into the flour or one into the flour and one into the water seems to work better.

It occurs to me that I should have asked whether the instructions for the starter came from the same place as your bread recipe. If not, it's definitely possibly that the recipe assumes a wetter starter, so you seem to end up with too dry a dough.

It depends on the starter that you are making. If I'm making a "Biga" with my sourdough then it is a wetter version. slightly thicker than my pancake batter. Not something that can be kneaded. Just stirred.

If I make a Levain than it is a firmer version. The Levain is firm enough to knead, but still a soft dough.

Ann

I can't speak to your particular recipe except to say that if your starter is a natural sourdough (i.e. no element of commercial yeast) you will have to play around with it and become familiar with its characteristics, then adapt your various recipes accordingly whether that adaptation is in the hydration of the starter, the pre-ferment time and temperature, the proofing time or whatever.

For example, although the rule-of-thumb is for an active starter to double in 4-6 hours, a true San Francisco starter is much slower. In fact, one reason for its sour character is that it is a slow strong riser that can tolerate long fermentation without losing its "oomph."

If you have a mature starter now (fed regularly at room temp for 30+ days and now predictable in its responses) I'd recommend taking one base recipe (your choice) and working with it until it's pefect. Keep notes so that when you achieve your ideal loaf you know precisely what you've done. Then extend that to other recipes with various grains.

If I were to name the one factor most crucial to successful sourdough, it's patience. As with any natural process, it's going to do what it's going to do and you have to adapt to that. (That's also part of the fun.)

Carol

Yes, the recipe and starter are from the same source.

I think it's the recipe. I've now noticed that even the non-sourdough doughs that I've been making from that book, tend to be too tight. I have not been incorporating all the flour. I guess I'll just have to play around with the wet to dry ratios.

I'm pleased with the starter though. It smells fruity and sour, is quite active, and makes a nice tasting loaf. I haven't been brave enough yet to make a loaf without yeast. I don't have confidence that the starter is strong enough to leaven a loaf on its own. I'll give it a few more weeks.

Susy, if your starter is strong, but you are still not sure about making a loaf without yeast, try adding just a 1/4 to 1/2 teaspoon of yeast for insurance.
According to the information in Amy's Bread, even commercial bakeries add a little bit of yeast for consistency.

Ann

You're probably aware, but usually recipes assume that you're fluffing up the flour, spooning it into the measuring cup, and leveling it off using a butter knife or some such thing so that the excess falls back into the bag of flour. I'm always tempted to just scoop the flour out with a measuring cup, but it does make a significant difference in how much you get. I think your instinct to add enough flour so that the dough feels right is a good one.

The problem primarily is that I've been mixing the dough in the bread machine, so my typical practice of "dump it, set it and forget it" doesn't work here since the ingredients aren't T&T.

I've been checking the dough now while it's mixing in the machine, and poking with my finger to get a feel for it. I've decided to leave it on the damp side, and then manually knead more flour in before I shape the loaf.

Sounds like you've got it all under control :-)

susytwo-

You are correct about the hydration. If you have to err, it's better to err on the side of too wet rather than too dry.

I use the bread machine for mixing the dough of my sourdough recipes, but I only let it run through the kneading. Once the kneading is completed I turn the bread machine off, unplug it, remove the dough from the bread machine pan and put it in a dough rising bucket and snap the lid on. In the dough rising bucket it's in a perfect little environment for proofing dough and easy for you to monitor the rise.

Make a note of where the dough is in the container, then allow it to rise to just under "double" that amount. "Double" is probably allowing the dough to over-proof. So if there is 1-quart of dough when patted into the bottom of the container; it's ready when it's reached just under the 2-quart line. (Hint: oil your hands while handling the dough, rather than flour.)

Even though the Zojirushi Bread Machine has a sourdough feature, I just don't trust a timed rise for either sourdough or yeast bread dough. Dough doesn't know how to tell time... It rises according to the ambient temperature, hydration and humidity, and the strength of the yeast.

If I want to reduce the rising time due to time constraints and have added 1/8 t. of SAF-Instant Yeast to the recipe, then the timing of the bread machine rise will be wrong.

-Grainlady

Whether you're using a bread machine or not, for the final proof if you "fold" the dough to gently de-gass rather than "punching it down and kneading" , you'll get a higher lighter rise and a less tight more hole-y crumb. Combine that with a wetter dough and you may find you're nearing the result you're looking for.

Carol

Thanks everyone for all the tips! Every loaf so far, is an improvement over the last.

Susy, one more thing you should be aware of is that once the dough has been kneaded in the machine, you do not want to keep adding more flour after the fact.

Also, when you first put the flour, sour dough starter/yeast and water in the machine, turn it on just to mix and then let it sit for 20 minutes. This allows the flour to absorb more of the water. After 20 minutes add the salt and then turn on the machine and let it knead.

Thanks Ann, I'll try that!

Susy, I also often add flour by hand after doing most of the kneading (or after sitting, for a no knead loaf), and don't have any trouble. I make sure that I have at least half of the flour in before kneading, so that I get enough gluten development for the bread to rise, and mix in the new flour well enough that I don't get flour pockets in the finished loaf.

I think starting the recipe with all of the water and part of the flour is a helpful tool in several situations. If you're kneading by hand, it's almost impossible with a very stiff dough. You can go for 20 or 30 minutes and bruise your knuckles and the bread still won't rise. A wet dough (and wet hands!) is so much easier. If you've got sub-optimal tools, also. A cheapo hand mixer can't handle dough, but you can use it to whir up all the water mixed with half the flour and save yourself some elbow grease. As long as it's thick pancake batter consistency, you're getting some gluten development. Many stand mixers struggle with stiff dough. You can do most of your kneading with the loose dough, then knead in some extra flour toward the end. Adding different amounts of flour also allows you to use the same dough for a bunch of different uses. With my no-knead dough, I can add no flour and bake it in a loaf pan, add a little and make a free-form loaf or a pizza crust, or add a lot and make bagels. I'm not very familiar with bread makers, but I think over time you'll figure out the easiest method. If you've got a good strong motor on your bread machine and you prefer to measure your ingredients, once you iron out your recipe, putting everything in from the start may work perfectly for you. I'm more of a fly-by-the-seat-of-my-pants kind of gal.

I hope you'll come back and brag about your loaves, and maybe show us some pictures. We love that! :-)

You want all the flour in your bread to be kneaded for the same amount of time. Bread that has a lot of extra flour added late into the kneading process will not be as good.

Also, there are lot of things that will effect your bread, flour, humidity, etc.... So never follow a recipe to a "T" when it comes to bread. Personally, I never measure my flour exactly. I just scoop it out of my flour pail and I add enough water to get the texture that I want.

If you are using a bread machine to do your kneading, you can, depending on the machine, just reset it to repeat the kneading cycle as many times as needed. This works great for a wet dough.

Ann

As the cartalk guys would say "so, there you go!" Complete agreement, as usual on the forum! :-P

I wanted to say "Thank You!" to grainlady for telling us about Everlasting Yeast (on the other sourdough thread). I made up some of the yeast this week and made bread last night. After I taste-tested my way through half a loaf (ahem) and brought some to work for a co-worker who is trying to make his own bread - I quickly mixed up another batch of bread this noon to bake for the farmers' market tomorrow.

I love knowing about "old timey" recipes and methods and now I think I understand how to time this recipe to suit my schedule.

Thanks so much!
Teresa

One additional tip - if your bread machine has a pre-heat feature, you may want to turn it off.

Carol