So sorry to hear that, I really feel for you.

In our total kitchen remodel the granite fabricators were also the only ones to give us headaches. They came highly recommended, but were a pain to deal with and extended the project by at least a month because of their lack of planning. I was having sleepless nights, to say the least.

Our saga had a happy ending, though. It is a family business and the sole fabricator/installer is the son of 24, who looks all of 15, but what a craftsman. He should fire both his parents! They are rude, unprofessional, impossible to get hold of, the litany goes on. He did a great job after all, the one seam in the granite is almost invisible.

What is wrong with your counters, something that can be fixed? I hope so. Good luck.

"Why so much unskilled labor in this industry?" Good Question. It appears to be in every industry. No pride of workmanship in the "gotcha" economy perhaps...
I am sorry that you had to go through this at the end of your renovation. I've had my problems with the cabinet dealer I used but will not go into it here.
I am very happy with the dealer & fabricator of my counters.

However during the installation the sub-contractor(templater/installer) informed me that the sink needed to be pulled forward but the hinges of the false front were in the way. I said ok where's your drill. No drill. Ok I'll get my drill tell me what type of bit and I'll run to the hardware store(5 minutes away).BLANK STARE. Ok I'm going to the hardware store and I'll just tell them I need to remove a cabinet hinge. BLANK STARE. I don't know he says. The counters(very heavy) were sitting there on the floor, we were so close yet so far. There was no way they were staying there overnight either, not if I could help it.

After a few more minutes of me telling him to call the dealer my DH arrived home from work, bought the bit and zip zip zip hinges/sponge tray removed. This was discussed well in advance of the install and I am sure happens to others. Also my DH had to make a wood block to position a small piece of soapstone behind a pipe. What if he wasn't home, what then ? I would be waiting another day for another appointment ? This also was discussed in advance. I have not bought this up with the dealer until I can meet him face to face, when I order my window sills. If I don't inform the dealer about this another home owner will have a delayed installation. The stare I got when I brought up a possible solution(get a bit) was met with a RED BULL/GNC body building powder overload stare. My DH and I couldn't believe that a hinge would be an insurmountable problem for an installer to deal with.

This post was edited by EATREALFOOD on Fri, Jan 4, 13 at 12:22

Unfortunately there is a very wide range in the professionalism in fabricators. I used to work for a major manufacturer of stoneworking equipment and started my own shop because of how much opportunity I saw because so many shops all over the country were horribly managed and run.

Many many shops are owned and run by people with little or no concept of what it takes to not only do quality work but also provide the quality of service which is warranted by the cost of the countertops.

The primary advantage of using your GC to select the fabricator is that he has multiple experiences and will (usually) only use a fabricator that consistently makes the customer happy.

I have done three kitchens with granite since 2002, the most recent was a whole house and included three baths with granite. The company that did this house were interested in my satisfaction "no matter what" because I ordered thru IKEA and I think most of their business comes thru IKEA. The install was mediocre at best, poor attention to detail, the preinstall run through was NOT done by the installer and that was a huge problem because he did not really understand what had to be done to prep, and this caused a problem and a seam to split within a few days and needed to be rectified - which it was, but not without much headache to me.

My previous home had granite sills and backsplash, the entire kitchen was wrapped in granite. It was done by a sole proprietor who also made art/one of a kind pieces with stone and was more an artist than a basic fabricator. Befor the install we discuss all of the supports, and he gave me specifics on how to complete the supports needed. He installed one backsplash piece the stood back and did not like the way it played against the countertop slab so removed it and apologized that the job could not be completed as promised that day, but it just did not look right to him. The attention to detail he gave was because he felt a personal stake in the way my kitchen looked, it was important to him that his work was done beautifully. He went out of business when the economy tanked and went to community college to be reeducated in a different field, and was not available when I built my new house.

Most people installing granite are installers lacking aestheticisms, not artists, and they have no personal stake in the finished product other that the money they receive.

oldryder-I must respectfully disagree with your comment:"The primary advantage of using your GC to select the fabricator is that he has multiple experiences and will (usually) only use a fabricator that consistently makes the customer happy".
What about the people who choose for whatever valid reason not to use the GC's recommendation or do not want a GC for a "same footprint" renovation. Is not their monetary layout to be respected ? I was very fortunate to get an excellent counter dealer recommendation from a poster here. GC's have their own problems, some are so dishonest and leave people worse off as indicated by numerous posts on GW. The customer deserves to be satisfied regardless of whether a GC is involved or not. Fabricating/installing a counter is not complicated. Take accurate measurements, cut the material to spec and install it. I would also add that the dealer should inform the customer in advance of any and ALL acceptable variances whether it be resin pooling or thickness of stone. Customers can only research so much on their own, people who specialize know all of the information so the impetus is on them to discuss with the customer in advance.

detroit-Your experience during your previous renovation shows that when a (sole)supplier cares it makes all the difference in the world. Of course there are complicated installations such as yours which demand attention to minute details. Mine was very straight forward, no seams, no matching slabs. I certainly did not mean to imply that in all cases the fabrication/installation is easy. Talented, caring "craftsmen" are so difficult to find for all aspects of a renovation simple or not.

Mayflowers I am so sorry. I think a lot of the problem comes from many people quickly getting in to the business with eyes on profits.

Our fabricator was recommended by our kitchen designer, who has been in business for 17 years. The fabricator has been in the granite business since the 1940s and has done some of the major public works projects in Portland, OR. During the remodel, I found out that the owners of the cabinet shop, tile shop, granite shop, and the plumber all go to the same church, so they are all scratching each other's back.

Our problems started when our Caesarstone Buttermilk slab arrived. The saleswoman suggested we look at it and approve the templating. There were two large white blobs on the slab, so we requested they cut around them.

DH got a premonition that something was going to go wrong, so he went in to see it the day before install. Sure enough, they cut around a smaller white spot and left in the two blobs. The saleswoman (daughter of the owner) only gave a sticky note mention of the blobs to the fabricator. She didn't mark them on the slab or show him personally.

Their fault, right? Order a new slab, we say. No, no, we were just allowing you to specify the cut-out as a courtesy. We don't normally do that with quartz. We're not obligated to follow your request. We decide to be nice and take the slab and use it for our bathroom vanity where we can cut around the blobs. We pay $900 for another slab for our peninsula. Ask for a discount on the refabrication of the old slab for our vanity. They say no. So at this point we have made concessions and they have made none, yet they made the error.

The new slab arrives. They dull it by cleaning it with Barkeeper's Friend, so after spending two hours trying to buff out their mistake, they say they'll replace it if we want. We want.

We changed quartz companies since they said they couldn't guarantee the new slabs-- they just have to take what Caesarstone sends. We were able to view the other company's slabs at their Portland warehouse. They arrived etched with drip and can marks that no one can explain and don't seem to want to follow up on.

EatRealFood: you missed my point. A GC, if he is an honest professional, will only use a fabricator that is competent and reliable and he's had enough experience with different jobs and fabricators to know who's good and who isn't. Given the wide variation in fab shop performance I suggest the countertops are an area where the GC's recommendation is more valuable.

Of course examples of shops that treat every customer as a "repeat" customer exist and if you find one you are in good shape. When my sister who lives out of state wanted granite I toured several local shops with her and helped her pick her fabricator. It was easy for me (and impossible for her) to spot the telltales which differentiate a competent fabricator from a schlock.

Your statement "Fabricating/installing a counter is not complicated" shows considerable ignorance. There are many, many issues associated with a stone countertop installation that have different answers depending on the type of stone, the color, the finish, the layout, and the edge detail just to name a few. This is exactly why you see so many reports of dissatisfied customers. SOmetimes the customer is dissatisfied with a decent job only because the customers expectations going in were unrealistic and the fabricator never took the time to relieve the customer of their misconceptions (a giant island with no seam would be a good example of an unrealistic expectation)

most cabinet shops have a regular granite guy. for similar reasons to the GC your cabinet guy can probably provide a reliable recommendation.

"It was easy for me (and impossible for her) to spot the telltales which differentiate a competent fabricator from a schlock."

I don't know if you saw my post above yours since we posted at the same time, but it looked like we had picked a good fabricator, till something went wrong. Then there is the problem of how they respond when the product is defective. Those telltales would be very valuable for you to share with GW, perhaps in a new post. Obviously most of us don't know how to pick a fabricator. I really appreciate your honesty and the education you provide of the industry. Thank you.

I tend to agree with oldryder. Of course one doesn't need to have a GC, but going through a good GC or other party that does a lot of business with fabricators will increase the odds of getting good work done.

We ordered our counters through our cabinet person-- he has a fairly high volume business in our area, and only works with 2 fabricators. If the fabricator does a poor job for this person, they stand to lose a lot of business. The consequences are much more dire than if, for example, I walked into the same fabricator shop to do business. Life shouldn't be like this, but it is.

Of course, this isn't helpful to the OP. It's awful to spend a great deal of money, have high hopes for your counters and suffer shoddy workmanship. I hope you can get this resolved.

It's a bit of a misconception from outsiders that "everyone is going into the stone business to make money". There are almost no real margins in stone. I've been fortunate enough to deal with a wholesaler who does a straight markup of 15% to the fabricators, regardless of "appeal" of the stone. He could charge a much higher margin for the scarce pretty stuff, but he doesn't. 15% barely pays the employees and a forklift to move the slabs around.

For fabricators, one that I've used charges a straight $40 per square foot fabricated if the stone is under $XX and $60 a square foot if it's over. They barely make ends meet because so many people choose the cheaper guys over them. I always take the time to praise their work when I can, because sometimes, that's all they take away from the job. The design shop I used to work with charged another 10-15% on top of the fabricator's price for the design assistance provided in selecting the color, edge, and coordinating the design elements, etc.

Another fabricator who approached me to get business charged $20-$30 a square foot for fabrication. His "equipment" for the job was a shed, a garden hose, and an angle grinder---and guys so poor they were willing to work for him. When I visited the "shop", no one there was wearing safety glasses, or hearing protection, and there appeared to be no GFI protection for his workers standing in the wet stone slurry with the incorrect electric tool for the job in their hands. This is a guy who has done a couple of the local home shows and who I know other design shops have used. I won't ever recommend him. He pays his guys $8 an hour to do this difficult and dangerous work. Yes, these are guys that probably are lucky to have that work, and to not be on some form of assistance, but the pay rate dictates that as soon as they actually learn what they are doing, they are off to somewhere else where the pay and working conditions are better. Like fabricator A. He at least pays his guys $20 an hour and insists on providing the proper personal protective equipment and the right tools.

That's some of the differences that you can run into in the stone fabrication business. And while you can get some poor fabricators at any price point, the ones with the poorest techniques and least experience do tend to cluster around the lowest price points. Statistically speaking, you are better off choosing a higher priced quote for these services than a lower priced one. Those shops generally do have enough financial margin to at least replace a job if one of the workers messes it up. The $19.95 guys don't.

Good observations by Hollysprings re: the existince of what I call "schlock" operators.

I am a past president and current board member of a local (5 state) stone trade association. we've often had discussions about what should be the minimum requirement for a member fabricator. It's not a simple question because there are still craftsmen out there that can do excellent work with shop space and several thousand dollars worth of hand tools. such a shop can usually only do 1 or 2 jobs a week at best but they can do excellent work. I have a friend near Nashville that has exactly this kind of shop.

More typically todays fabrication shop, even a small one, has a couple of hundred thousand dollars in specialized machinery, diamond tooling, specialized adhesives, and measure and installation tools.

ultimately we decided that a "real" fabricator would at least have a formal business address (not a garage), a federal tax id #, workers comp and unemployment insurance, and some considerable investment in machinery. this has proven to be a pretty good minimum.

regarding pricing; the very low ball price per sq. ft. guys IMHO should be avoided. I know from experience that sometimes a job costs the fabricator far more than he got paid due to problems like broken parts & measure mistakes that can require the purchase of additional slabs or, in the worst case, re-doing an entire job. In 12 years and several thousand jobs I've only had to refab 3 jobs but, on occasion, it's the only way to make it right. I also know my manufacturing costs as I spent a career in manufacturing before starting my granite business and I can tell you for certain that I can't do a quality job and consistently make money for less than roughly $50 per sq. ft. minimum.