Do I Need A GC or Kitchen Designer?

13 years ago

This is my first foray into any type of home-remodel and am wondering what kind of help I might need. I guess what I want to do is a medium scale remodel of my kitchen. I own a house that is only 3 years old but I was not involved in its original design. I do not want to re-configure its layout (L shape with an island) but I do want to replace all of the cabinets and backsplash. I would also like to replace the current range with a 30" pro-style (ie Wolf, CC, Bluestar, NXR etc) as well as add a proper hood that vents to the outside. Currently there is a ductless OTR microwave which of course is useless for venting. I do not want to replace any of the other appliances or the flooring. I do not want to replace the sink, faucets or the granite counter tops. Can I assume they can just be lifted off the current cabinets and placed on the new ones even if one section is an L shape where two pieces are bonded together?

I don't plan on doing any of the work myself so what do I need to do? Do I need a GC for something like this? Should I go with some sort of kitchen design specialist for a job of this size? Or should I just run the entire thing myself?

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Comments (9)

shortyrobyn
13 years ago
You may want a KD - but you'll need contractors. And if you don't want to pick and coordinate the different trades people (wouldn't recommend doing it yourself unless you're used to handling a job like this) - you'll want a GC to do that job. You'll also need someone who can pull building permits (you'll probably need a building permit to install the vent among other things) - coordinate inspections - etc. That's usually a GC.

I suspect there's a risk of cracking the granite when you take it off - but am not sure how big that risk is. Robyn
jejvtr
13 years ago
kmg

What is the current range? - You will need the spec's from current as well as the proposed to make sure it will fit, has proper gas line and proper electric. Also if the current vent is OTR - you will need to make certain you shop/purchase a hood that will fit the space & can be ducted exterior. Is there any cab over the OTR? Is the range on exterior wall? What is the siding of the home? You will need to determine if there are any studs, plumbing, electric that prevents ducting.

Lifting the granite off existing cabs is possible, the success will be related to how it was installed, how long the pieces are & how experienced the tradesman/people are with removal.

If you are not changing plumbing, electric, heating you will not need permits. You may need one for the hood but that is easy -

What type of cabs are you looking for? - If you are replacing same/same and they are stock you could shop for them yourself - If there are changes in sizes, bottom of cabs you will want to be certain that there will not be any flooring issues/oops - Many of the shops that have Stock cabs can assist you with floorplan/design - since you aren't changing anything this is simple.
Custom cabs will be a different story, but typically those shops have experienced KD that can assist with making certain cabs are fitting properly

- Granite fabricator to remove granite & re-install
A skilled carpenter can remove old cabs, install new- appliance store can refer install person for range, HVAC for the hood, tile person to do backsplash

- The biggest concerns are the range, hood & making sure there are no flooring issues - Know all of those before purchasing anything.
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In my experience doing all the GC'ing myself (carpentry, electric, plumbing as well as doing floors/paint myself), the main difference will be in time. It will simply take longer to finish if you oversee it all yourself. You'll inevitably forget something or something won't go correctly, and you'll need to have someone back in, delaying someone else, and then that person won't be available for another week or month. There will be inevitable holdups when specialty items have to be unexpectedly replaced or ordered online from afar. This all tends to have a domino effect. Also, contractors will tend to prioritize other jobs where they are working for someone else, a GC upon whom they'll depend for future work, for example. So you might find yourself last in line now and then. At first it might get frustrating to realize that often you need each trade more than once in the course of the project, say, an electrician has to come in at 3 different points. He'll come in, pull one wire and say OK, call me back when the carpenter is finished with X. And then you wait 2 weeks for the carpenter to be free, etc etc... You'll simply have a new learning curve with each step of the project, never having done any of it before. Now, this didn't bother me too much since I had somewhere else to live (and cook) and was grateful to be getting it done at all, but your mileage/patience may vary. It really helps if your contractors know one another, as they did in my case. They will have worked together on other jobs and there will be less friction a la "I can't do xyz because the stupid carpenter prepped abc incorrectly/not how I want it prepped." There are certain baseline standards that everyone will adhere to (if they're any good at all), but as with anything else, each tradesperson has their own preferences on how to get it done. Plan as much as possible in writing! And let everyone know as much of the total picture as possible, so that they can help point out any glitches from their trade's perspective. Good luck!
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Are you under a firm deadline, other than convenience in not living with and in a work site any longer than necessary? Are you OK with setting up a minimalist kitchen function for the duration? (keep and move old fridge to another room, get some hotplates or portable induction cookers - at least one maybe two, MW, biggish toaster oven, rice cooker and washing your dishes in a PR sink - using a counter made of plywood on sawhorses?) Could you get through the holidays with such a set-up? It really depends on your tolerance for camping out in your own house and how frustrating you will find juggling children and tradesman (many of the same management/coping skills apply, but don't try shoving a pacifier at the electrician). Whatever time frame you come up with, imagine how it would be if it took exactly twice as long. Would that throw larger family plans into a tailspin? Because that very well may come to pass. Still, GCing one project, and your own at that where your won't have trouble communicating your ideas because they will all be in your own brain, seems like it is possible. Are your kids and DH the flexible, roll-with-it types? Or does change destabilize them? What does your Mama think? My own Mother GC'd the building of her house when she was in her 60's. I know I spent a lot of time on the phone with her as she vented about the days' progress (or lack thereof). I thought it was great that she did it, but I think if I had had doubts my doubts would have discouraged her and made it harder. Also, get several more bids before you give up. The Official Kitchen Industry is awash in price gouging in some places because it is an emotional purchase, dealing with aspirations, expensive equipment most people only buy occasionally and mysterious systems (water, electricty and drains), etc. Also, try breaking it apart into sequential episodes to see if you can make it work that way. HTH L.
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Looking at bbdf's mock-ups made me realize something: I forgot to add spacers between wall and cab for the cab next to the DW in Plan D. You'll lose at least 3 inches and perhaps as much as 5", depending on door and door handle depth from this cab. If you don't allow for door and door handle depth, you won't be able to open the drawers because they'll hit the fridge door or door handle. Same will be true if you do doors instead of drawers. That means that the cab next to the DW in my Plan D could be as narrow as 15.5". Looking back at the plan posted in your OP, it doesn't look like the drawing (created by the cab maker?) included spacers between wall and cab to allow for the fridge door and handles. That's a big uh-oh. So I went back to bbdf's #7 option and one of LL's lay-out suggestion for fridge placement. I think it's the best solution for your kitchen and one you should revisit. Yes, it takes a bigger bite out of the budget but there are ways to accomplish this without breaking the budget. For instance, choose inexpensive backsplash tile and laminate or wood counters instead of stone (wood would look very true to your kitchen's age, IMO). You can always update finishes later but it's not nearly as easy to update lay-out and function later for minimal investment. Plus you can opt to do the full plan in stages as budget allows. You can either opt for the wider opening and fridge location as bbdf drew up in her post of Wed, Nov 12, 14 at 23:01 or you can remove the wall completely. You'll need to install a beam for either option but moving the doorway and recessing the fridge will require new headers so the cost difference may not be as great as you think to widen the entry or remove the wall completely. Widening the doorway or losing the wall will also open up the view to your backyard from your kitchen, which you only get through the one window now. If you choose the lose the wall between kitchen and laundry area: You gain 4.5" to use along the sink wall (I'm assuming based on the age of your home that it's 2x4 construction, not 2x6 construction). I butted the fridge up against the existing upper cabs (you plan on keeping them, right?). I allocated 39" of width for your existing 36" wide fridge and a surrounding cabinet. Depending on cab construction, that could change by an inch or so. In case you missed it, this plan allows you to keep your existing fridge, which is money you can put towards widening the opening or removing that wall. With the fridge next to the sink run cabs, you don't lose cab storage between fridge and DW. I added a cab with counter across from the fridge. I estimated its height, based on where the window sill is compared to the back door handle. This could be as far as you take the plan for now, keeping existing W/D closet in place. Or you can remove the W/D closet, stack the W/D at the far end (I realize the ceiling slopes but unless it's lower than 6' 6", you should have room to stack the W/D units) and add a 30.5" wide pantry between W/D and fridge. This would give you loads of storage for broom, mop, kitty litter, pantry goods, small appliances, etc. Across from it, I added another 30" high counter above kitty litter pan alcove, dog feeding station, etc. The W/D could be visible, as they are in this kitchen: [[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/san-francisco-white-kitchen-traditional-kitchen-san-francisco-phvw-vp~602970) [Traditional Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107) by New Holland Kitchen & Bath Designers Rutt Regency Cabinetry Or you can put them behind cab doors like they are in these two kitchens: [[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/chelsea-home-renovation-transitional-dining-room-atlanta-phvw-vp~6950087) [Transitional Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/transitional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2112) by Ridgewood Architects & Building Designers TerraCotta Studio Now you see it [[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/cow-hollow-residence-traditional-kitchen-san-francisco-phvw-vp~43688) [Traditional Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107) by San Francisco Interior Designers & Decorators Amoroso Design Now you don't [[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/cow-hollow-residence-traditional-kitchen-san-francisco-phvw-vp~43687) [Traditional Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107) by San Francisco Interior Designers & Decorators Amoroso Design I changed the small bistro table to a fold-down table attached to the wall. Fold it up when you need it, fold it out of the way when you don't. This will make accessing the buffet storage and side cabs much easier, plus the beauty of that buffet will no longer be blocked by a table. This is the idea but not the execution of what I envision for your kitchen. [[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/alterman-eclectic-kitchen-new-york-phvw-vp~2948642) [Eclectic Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/eclectic-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2104) by Jersey City Design-Build Firms Brunelleschi Construction [[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/alterman-eclectic-kitchen-new-york-phvw-vp~2948640) [Eclectic Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/eclectic-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2104) by Jersey City Design-Build Firms Brunelleschi Construction This style is more what I have in mind for your kitchen: [[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/exterior-traditional-minneapolis-phvw-vp~352298) [Traditional Spaces[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-home-design-ideas-phbr1-bp~s_2107) by Edina General Contractors John Kraemer & Sons bmorepanic did something like this in her even-smaller-than-yours kitchen but I can't seem to find links to her old kitchen threads (her kitchen was finished several years ago) nor does her kitchen show up in the FKB. She still posts periodically so you could always give her a shout-out asking her to show you her table. As with my Plan D, I moved the range to the left to give you more counter between sink and range. The upper cab to the left of the range would have hinges on the front (facing the kitchen) and side (facing the DR doorway) so that you can access items from either side. Shoot, I can't find the example of this that I had in mind on houzz right now. Pretty sure a GWer (maybe beekeeperswife) has done this so you could also ask for examples of this. Anyhoo, having it open on 2 sides means that you won't lose things in the back reaches of a fairly narrow cabinet. Or you can just have it open to the side and put a false panel on the front. Oops, I forgot to note that the sink cab is 30". I think a 30" apron front sink would be period appropriate. This post was edited by lisa_a on Mon, Nov 17, 14 at 12:59
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weissman
13 years ago
Since you're not changing the layout, you probably don't need a KD except maybe to help you pick out cabinets. Removing the counters is a big deal - it is possible they could break. You really need to think about whether your really want to replace the cabinets - you could paint them or reface them which is a lot easier to do. Putting in a pro-style range and vent hood is a good thing to do - that may or may not require permits depending on your locale.
still_lynnski
13 years ago
You do need someone to coordinate the flow of work among many different trades, so that's your general contractor. The GC doesn't necessarily pull the permit(s) however. We've always taken care of our own permitting. Handling the permits gets us deeply involved in understanding the details of the job, and also saves money--why pay the GC to run around doing work he's not necessarily skilled at?

It's good to be flexible so that you can capitalize on the skills and style of your particular GC. For example, our guy is extremely ethical, communicative, and hard-working, but he doesn't like email or the internet. So I do all the online shopping and coordinating with the guy who drafts the plans... and count myself extremely lucky to have a wonderful GC!
sas95
13 years ago
"If you are not changing plumbing, electric, heating you will not need permits."

In our town you need a permit if you are removing or installing kitchen cabinets. So it pays to check.
kmg67
Original Author
13 years ago
Thanks for all the info everyone. Very helpful!

jejvtr - the current range is a 30" Frigidaire gas. Since I want to change it to a 30" pro-style gas range but am replacing the cabs, I am assuming that should not be a problem for fit. There are also two electrical outlets behind the range - the regular one and another 220. The range is also on an outside wall so I am hoping ducting should be pretty easy. Thanks for the heads-up on the potential problems with the plumbing, electrical and studs - I did not think of that. I think I should be ok on the first two but will have to do some measuring to see if there is a stud that could obstruct the ducting. I've done lots of reading on the appliance forum on hoods so have a few 30" ones in mind. Some of them will mount under a cabinet while others have the soffit to mount to the wall. Currently there is a cabinet above the range but since I will be replacing the cabs, I think I have some flexibility on which one I can go with. Perhaps this is where the KD comes in? The house has siding but it is neither vinyl nor aluminum. It is some kind of synthetic or engineered material.

As far as I can tell, there will be no plumbing, electrical, heating or electrical changes. Just the hood.

weisman - the cabs definitely have to go - they are just a lower quality builder's grade. Basically junk. The top ones are only 10" deep and I would like at least 12". I don't want custom but just something better quality from maybe one of the home improvement stores, Ikea etc. I do know the company who installed the counter tops so I will have to contact them to see what they think. At least I know that this is a potential problem.
breezygirl
13 years ago
I don't think you necessarily need a KD or a GC. As said above, if you are strictly replacing cabs and don't want to rearrange to increase function, you could do that without a KD. Do you have lots of spare time to devote to research? And field trips to plumbing showrooms, cab shops, and appliance stores? Are you organized? Can you manage a series of coordinated steps in process? If yes, I don't even think you need a GC. We decided to be our own GC on a whole house remodel. It is definitely taking more time doing it this way, but we are saving thousands of dollars this way. I couldn't do it without this forum though.

Do check on permits. You may need one. You can pull them yourself.

I'd be afraid of granite cracking so build in money for replacement into your budget. And go pick a new slab at the granite yard as a back up just in case.

Do you want under cab lighting? Now is your chance to do that. Highly recommend it.

Oh, and if you are considering a pro range with high BTUs, I strongly suggest you consider a hood 6" wider than your range for venting. This is a recommendation for any range, but I think it's even more important with a powerhouse like you want. You've probably already seen this on the Appliancd Forum.

Good luck!
shortyrobyn
13 years ago
I think where I live - it's illegal to vent a stove top hood through the side of the house - has to go through the roof (fire issues). Even our little OTR microwave vent goes through the roof. Most HOAs (if you live in one) won't allow you to do it either. I'd be sure to check on this - because cutting through a roof is not a small job (and you'll need another trade - a roofer). There are thousands of building codes and rules and departments in the US. Check with yours to find out what local requirements are.

Also - even if you can vent through the side of the house - you'll want to make sure there aren't any other obstructions running through the wall (like electrical lines). Robyn
pinch_me
13 years ago
Do plan on the 36 inch hood. Search the appliance forum for lots of threads on the size issue.

Do I Need A GC or Kitchen Designer?

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