Women People who make such comments are just plain rude. No, it is not acceptable for women to say things like that to men or women that they work with. How do you respond to them?

I don't say anything or I am supposed to agree, I guess. I say something non-committal like "Oh, you think so?" They don't seem to do it to each other (some of them dislike each other enough already), but critiquing men seems to be fair game.

Good grief no it's not acceptable, I never say anything to a person unless it can be positive. But, if one asks me for my candid opinion on a haircut for instance, I might say, I lke the haircut,it's a good one but I think shorter on the sides is more flattering to you". That way I can let them know my real feelings without hurting them WHO says those things, geesh!!!

You work with hostile, mean, perhaps even somewhat disturbed people (& that's coming from moi, Miss Benefit of the Doubt, LOL!) Seriously, don't let the turkeys get you down, but don't hesitate to respond with a sarcastic reply, either.

"You look awful, do you have cancer?" Why, Marsha, how nice of you to express your concern. Maybe I do...working around toxic people can make people seriously ill, you know.

"...is that a rash or..?" I think it's a rash, and a highly contagious one."

"Grey makes you look old..." Good, I'm going for that distinguished look.

"You look like a little boy..." I won't let my youthful good looks stand in the way of my professionalism.

"You look ugly.." Thanks for sharing.

(Go get'em tiger!)

I think women sometimes forget that men are sensitive just like we are. You need one perfectly-phrased reply that makes a point, stops them dead in their tracks, doesn't insult them, and can be said calmly without your sounding like a (male) shrew.

How about this:

Pause. Look straight in her eyes. "How would you like it if I said that to you?"

Pausing before you speak tends to get people's attention and underscores the importance of what you are saying.

If she is going on and on, you raise your palm like a policeman, and then say, "Stop right there. How would you like it if I said that to you?"

And then say nothing more. Let there be an awkward silence.

Geez! No, it's not ok. I think when you know someone well and are close (family), you can get away with some of that but most of the time, it's not appropriate. I'm shocked by all those comments.

I'd probably eventually also ask how they'd like it. I'd imagine they'd be offended if it were turned around.

Oh, and for the really inappropriate, vulgar comments like the "child molester" remark, reply with, "What did you just say?" Let them repeat themselves and "hear" how awful they sound. When they say it again say, "I thought you said something crude & vulgar like that, but I just wanted to be sure."

These nasty people make my blood boil. Don't let them get away with it. This is a form of bullying, imo.

Actually to her I said, "I wouldn't know, I never dated someone in jail, like you have."

Oh would my husband love to talk to you!

Several years ago on the first nice spring day, neighbors ventured out all along the block after a long winter. The neighbor across the street (maybe 10 years our junior) came over to say hi and as she approached said to my DH, "Wow - Your hair sure got gray over the winter!" He didn't miss a beat and replied, "Wow - Your b**bs sure sagged over the winter!". I don't recommend that kind of reply to your co-workers, of course.

It's amazing how oblivious people can be to their inappropriate remarks. If it's worth it to you, you can respond with "Would you appreciate back-handed comments from me about your hair, scrubs, weight? No? Then what makes you think I do?" I am rather ashamed of my gender but it does seem that we (royal we) consider it ok to make those comments but would raise a stink if the tables turned. Look at the male bashing that is allowed on prime time TV. Men are made to look like incompetent fools that survive only through the charity of their far smarter wives, girlfriends, mothers......

BTW, that neighbor was quite put out for a while but they made peace and remained on friendly terms. He explained it, she got it and my guess is she watches what she says a bit more carefully.

I love stinky's responses. If you have trouble coming up with an answer to rudeness I've always found "I'm sorry you feel that way" to work for most circumstances.

Actually to her I said, "I wouldn't know, I never dated someone in jail, like you have."

Perfect!!

I can't say that I am particularly offended by it, just puzzled. When I had a crew cut and one of the longer hair supporters said something about my hair I just shrugged, and when she walked off...Another women (a crew cut supporter) said to me "You don't need to take a comment like that from a woman with female pattern baldness, you look fine" So I guess they have something to say about each other, too, just not to their faces.

dlm that is *hilarious*! I love your DH's sense of humor : )

pal, that's just a really bad dynamic that's gotten underway there. Some questions: are the women your peers? Or are they your subordinates? Do they treat all men the same way they do you? Do you treat them the same way other men treat them? Are you younger than other men in your position? the youth-age difference is also considered sometimes a justification for this kind of behavior.

In critical discourse analysis, it's always important to consider other power dynamics in addition to the gender issue...in some places I've experienced women lower down on the totem pole getting away with the most jaw-droppingly insulting 'jokes' at the expense of their supervisors/higher-ups -- it was evidently considered o.k. in a Feast of Fools kind of way, iykwim -- making fun of those who hold more real power is the only power that some folks lower down can have, since they have no other form of power over those above their station. Men in the lower stations didn't seem to participate in the 'ribbing' that their female counterparts did.

Besides the parameters I've mentioned, can you think of any others that might be helpful from a c.d.a. perspective?

I am the attending Dr. but it is an educational program and while I have to be there for accreditation/legal purposes, they are my peers although a couple of them consider themselves my superior. (One of them considers herself everyone's superior). I have noticed this behavior though in other places (private practice, but I am not the boss) at times (I work in four, total).

The other thing that I have noticed, more in other places, because the women in this particular workplace don't like each other enough...is that women will go into detailed descriptions about sex (in a critiquing kind of way)...and men NEVER talk about this in that way (because men don't generally talk about personal things. They are not talking about this TO me, but I hear it going on and I have, on occasion said "would you PLEASE JUST STOP!" They usually just laugh and say I am prudish, but I kind of feel sorry for the guys they are talking about (and it does include boyfriends and husbands).

I *do live in one of the "rudest cities in America", maybe that has something to do with it.

I am shocked by the behavior of your coworkers. I love Stinky's responses also. You do not have to put up with these offensive, abusive comments.

I suspect that they are putting everyone else down and making rude comments in order to self-elevate themselves. You should make a traffic sign that says "Egos at work".

Ah, pal, I'm glad you said it first, not I, but you are *so* right about the city of brotherly hate, as DH and I used to call it when we lived there for four l-o-n-g years... It cracks us up to see the occasional national reference to the city -- e.g. a entire city block sank into a hole because of cheap construction back over a century ago, etc., a pier just collapsed, etc...it was just the most mean-spirited place I'd ever lived, and I'd lived in several states up and down the east coast. DH had lived on both east and west coasts, and never experienced anything like Philly.

One anecdote: when we were coming into town from NYC for the first time to check out Penn, we were taking the exit ramp to get off the freeway to go into town, and a car *passed us* on the one-lane ramp, having to squeeze past us in the breakdown lane (a bit thin) to get one car ahead! What complete selfish bull excrement. We should have taken it as a sign.

But that can't explain it all; how about the parameters I mentioned above?

I haven't read through all the comments here, not trying to be rude just cooking dinner right now, but your list of comments actually showed, to me, a proprietorial air about them, much like a sister to a brother. Comments only one who feels close to the person would say, yet, because, I assume, they all know you aren't available, they are comfortable with you to say them and feel they won't be taken the wrong way. They say them because they genuinely care about you.

You, being the male, should not respond in kind!

ARGH, I missed your more substantive reply...

O.K., it's not the Feast of Fools idea (although the name does fit in a way...); maybe it's that you're the 'safe zone' that everyone can bond over, because they know you'll take it and if they were to say such things to each other, fisticuffs might ensue : ).

I have to say the 'hair color' trap made me laugh -- you walked right into that one. Gotta catch up on your bad sitcoms : )

(speaking of bad sitcoms, that one on Thursday that replaced Outsourced, named for the main female character--I'm spacing on it because I really don't like it -- is really *horrible* in just this way. The people say the worst things to each other and end their lines with a smile, so the 'live studio audience' is supposed to laugh. Nastiness is not wit. Just ain't. But don't tell that to Phluffians (another one of DH's made-up names), where it's always sunny : ))

You are probably such a nice guy that these women feel they are entitled to comment constantly on your appearance, the fact that they are comfortable with you doesn't make it right ; I'm anxious to see if you use any of those comebacks, or just plain tell them to knock it off.

or just look at them and say: "Really ?"

Why do people just let garbage spill out of their mouths and say anything that comes to their mind, they need a filter. I find comments like that clueless and I 've experienced this . A heartfelt good morning would suffice.

I don't think these people are well intended, they are just rude and thoughtless. My brother used to comment in an annoying way like that, sometimes in the name of being humorous, we had to spell it out to him to stop doing that, and he did.

It seems that more and more people find it acceptable to voice their opinions, no matter what they are. I often find such an obsession with appearances unsettling. If I want an opinion on my appearance I will ask for it. Situations like those you describe make me want to suggest some good book titles or the purchase of a newspaper so people can spend their energy on something else.

It's a society that has become void of tact as well as manners.

Wow pal, usually there are maybe one or two rude bullies in a workplace, but you hit the jackpot. They have lost their right to your courtesy and good manners.

Here are a few responses you can practice saying before you go in to work.....

Do you still love nature, despite what it did to you?

You must have a low opinion of people if you think they're your equals.

There is no vaccine against stupidity.

Anyone who told you to be yourself couldn't have given you worse advice.

Do you want people to accept you as you are or do you want them to like you?

Don't you need a license to be that ugly?

I'm busy now. Can I ignore you some other time?

I don't know what makes you so stupid, but it really works!

Listen, are you always this stupid or are you just making a special effort today?

When you get to the ladies`s room, you will see a sign that says, "Ladies". Pay no heed to it. Go right on in.

Is your name Amazon? You`re so wide at the mouth.

Keep talking. I always yawn when I'm interested.

Hey, I remember you when you had only one stomach.

HTH! :)

I once heard someone reply to an unwanted comment with "Merry Christmas to you too."

It was summertime.

I thought it was an effective way of making the point without being mean back.

I often will respond with "OUCH!" and walk away. They will get the hint that you were hurt by their words. I'm sorry, you don't deserve this.

I do think that women are more inclined to comment on clothing and hair than men are. I've been fortunate to work with people who restrict themselves to positive remarks. You work with a vicious group, so you may have to spell it out. The HR department really needs to do a better job on training about hostile work environment scenarios. While you might not be all that upset, it's likely that there's another employee, a vendor or a customer who might be. Even if a company doesn't lose a law suit, legal defense is expensive.

Personally, I'm extremely grateful to a totally tactless man with whom I worked. His remarks about my shaking because of having had way too much coffee were decidedly unfunny but caused me to go to the doctor. Turns out that I had developed off the charts hyperthroidism, but was unaware of some symptoms like the shaking or attributed them to peri-menopause. My friends had all noticed the shaking but were too polite to say anything. I may be the only person who has ever sincerely thanked Mr. Totally Tactless for his comments.

my guess is that they all(the ones making the comments!) like you and feel VERY comfortable with you...
sounds like some bantering i've heard within certain families(not my own)-some families very much speak their minds, and don't take much offense at what is said... you're like family to them!! lol

I thing that the most likely thing is the big-sister effect that has been mentioned. I don't really take offense to the remarks, but it did make me think "this is really a one-sided thing" because most women would take offense at similar remarks if the were about them...I know that from saying some thing completely inadvertent on occasion.

If that's the way you hear it, that's a good thing, Pal. Perhaps there is something to that, as Bumblebeez & Busybee suggest (Bees just get this!)

What's important to me is that your feelings are not hurt, and you don't feel they are creating a hostile environment in the workplace for you. On those levels, you seem fine with it. You're just wondering what motivates them.

Less than it being a general "women against men dynamic," if this is a "little brother" scenario in their minds, that explains their approach, I suppose. If you were a woman, and a "little sister" figure, they may make similar remarks ("You look like a hooker in that short skirt!"...the possibilities for a girl are endless!)

I think they are taking liberties with your good nature, personally, but I do realize as Busybee said, that there is a certain sort of biting banter and wit that many enjoy, and actually reserve for their most trusted intimates.

I think that variations of this type of conversation are common in predominately female work environments. Another reason why I hate working in close proximity to women.

It's interesting that this occurs. I've worked in a couple of predominantly female fields, and most of the women were in a 'traditional' female role. those were THE most toxic places. The back-stabbing, gossip, backhanded compliments...ugh.

For the last 20 years I've worked in more 'male' jobs, but oddly they're mainly women doing this work, and you don't get that petty, mean girl action.

Regardless, these women you work with Pal are horrid and petty. They need a call out on their actions.

I think they would be shocked if I responded in any way as if it bothered me.

Since the "advice" is all contradictory to each other it kind of cancels itself out. Except for the tan scrubs: nobody seems to like those too much.

In their defense (sorta), a couple of these women are married to men who are essentially toddlers. As wives they are used to saying "put this on", "go get a haircut" etc.
One of the women's (now ex-) husband needed to be given an allowance, and she literally did Everything,(mortgage, bills, checkbook, credit card) including screening really inappropriate emails to parents of the soccer team he coached: "I am sorry you don't think your son has enough playing time, but he is such a bad player that he is more of an asset to the other team. This is a championship team and he is on it only because you live in the school district. Consider yourselves lucky that he gets any playing time at all."

He is now married to another woman who gives him an allowance and leases a car for him. So its not all the woman's fault by a long-shot.

I think the responses and the anger felt by the women, for me, in this thread illustrate how they would take it if it was directed toward them, even if it was in direct response to a remark of this kind. So my feeling is that guys simply aren't supposed to do it back and it IS different.

The workplace is toxic however, the two women who have the most senior positions hate each other stemming from an incident regarding maternity leave. Almost Twenty Years Ago.

Men would have either had it out in the parking lot about 19 years ago, eventually shrugged it off, or one of them would have gotten a different job. Ironically, neither of these women ever say anything like the comments I posted to me.

Pal, it's rude, but sadly, a lot of people feel it's okay to be rude especially when they are in a comfortable environment like work.

It reminds me of my husband, who unfortunately has a very heavy accent and is also shy because of it. He is Russian but fluent in 3 languages English, Russian and Swedish. The Russian Swedish mix takes getting used to and can be hard to understand at first but it's something he just can't seem to kick. People talk to him loud or make comments, even though he's highly educated with a Masters in English. Even worse they tease him by calling him "Alice" like from the Discover commercials in a public format that humiliates him. In my opinion what you both experience is the adult version of bullying.

Pal, I actually was imagining how I would feel if the remarks were targeted at my husband! It would really hurt me to hear him come home reporting such tales from work.

It would bother me more to hear that he was being treated in such a manner than it would if I were. I just respect my DH so much and know & appreciate how hard he works! He certainly has dealt with some tough personalities and difficult scenarios (most often with female staff) in his 25 years in healthcare.

It's hard to see a loved one have to endure any sort of unpleasantness, but I realize that politics and "personality issues" are unavoidable and are present everywhere, in every professional sphere.

My heart goes out to you and to all of those who work hard, have standards, want to do their best, and must have their work place contaminated with other's insensitivity and selfishness. Life (and working) is hard enough.

Nine times out of ten I think people are unhappy with their jobs not because of the work itself, but because of people problems like you describe. It can affect one's quality of life dramatically.

I also wanted to point out that what these women are saying is not "constructive criticism". It is rude catty b*tchiness!

Well said, Terriks. Agreed. There is nothing constructive about it!

Pal - it's bad enough that they feel free to make these comments to you but what strikes me even more is how unprofessional this is. I'm not sure what level of employment these women have, however it really doesn't matter, this behavior it unacceptable in any work environment.

I'm wondering how it can be changed. Would it be appropriate or would you feel comfortable simply answering these comments by saying something like - "Personal comments like this really aren't appropriate here." Do mentioned that they are your peers so I'm assuming you're not their supervisor.

It sounds like your work place is due for a Gender Sensitivity Training session.

Good idea, Maire Cate...or even just a general "sensitivity training" seminar would suffice.

Not professional- excellent point. Even if people choose to converse this way with family & friends, what Pal is reporting is not happening in the living room!

I thought of this thread last night at the Parents' Night at my DD's school. There's a team-taught World History/Lit class, and the Lit class is taught by a woman who would *NOT* stop criticizing her teaching partner, a very cool World History teacher who at least appeared to take it all in stride. I can't imagine, though, that such constant mockery (the partner I had before was better groomed/I'm the one who's sympathetic to students, he isn't/he can't explain the class as well as I do) -- I felt *uncomfortable* having to witness this stuff and not step in, honestly. I don't know what the rest of the parents felt like. It was just so disrespectful to undermine his professionalism (and his personal appearance, which wasn't objectionable at all -- he looked fine to me), the Don Rickles-insult-stand-up comedy act was completely inappropriate to the situation as well as to basic human decency. I kept thinking that this woman had been raised on a steady diet of sitcoms--she would issue a 'zinger' and expect a laugh track--and thought that the behavior on them was actually acceptable in real life.

So if it helps at all, pal, you're not alone. I don't know if I could have stood 7 years with that harpy always trying to score one on me with students or parents, honestly.

Have to add, though: there was one story she told about their young sons being in the same daycare and being friends until her son bit his son over a toy ownership dispute...she said "they worked it out, your son forgave my son and they're buds [sic] again"...he said quietly as he went to get the handouts, "yes, and that speaks volumes"...Only a few of us got it and I couldn't help but let a burst-laugh out...

Pal, you need to have a face off~~next time this happens say,"if I were a woman would you be so critical'? If that's a negative, I would appreciate it if you keep your opinion to yourself". *YOU* need to be the one who takes the initiative to make them stop. Women *sometimes* don't know when to stop. especially if the other person isn't speaking their mind~~sorry ladies, but you know we can go on and on. ;o)

Well, it seems like you've put up with it for a while, so if you suddenly change, you may need to make an announcement instead of getting them all ticked off one at a time.

"Ok, women, listen up! I have refrained from making remarks about your appearances because I prefer to maintain a cordial, but professional relationship. Besides, I don't want to appear sexist. However, as of today, I suggest you refrain from more personal comments about my appearance or you will all become fair game, as well. And you REALLY don't want to hear some of the things I've thought about your appearances. For starters, some of you should really lay off the jelly donuts."

Big grin.

Walk away.

Rude. Mean. Unprofessional. Inappropriate.

Sorry Pal that you have to put up with that.

I'd say something back. But then I do.

Glad Yogacat mentioned Mr. Totally Tactless, and Flyleft mentioned Don Rickles.
The guy I share a cube with we actually compare to Don Rickles!!!

I find a couple of men in my unit fall into that group. Not the women so much.
Well...ONE actually, but she's French. Seriously. A complete parody of the rude French person. I didn't believe it existed until I met her.

My "neighbor" is just plain Mr. Tactless, but I don't think he's mean intentionally. He says things to WOMEN however that are completely off the wall.
Like "What did you do to your hair?" I just ask, "Do you want me to smack him for you?"

He lives in the northeast BTW, and constantly gets on me for living in "Doylestown", so I laughed to see the references to Philly.

I'd answer them straight back. People from Philly can take it. They may even love it!

Biochem, small world, I live in Lumberville. I saw in Budget Travel that Newtown Borough was voted one of the coolest small towns in America. I would have voted for Doylestown.

Pal, I don't think they mean to be nasty. It sounds more like being over familiar from working in the trenches together.

I agree the remarks are not appropriate. Whether of not they are meaning to be nasty, only you can know that. I agree with some of the others who have suggested things like "what did you say", etc. rather than a sarcastic response. No need to put yourself on their level.

tina

(((virtual hugs))), Pal. So sorry you have to deal with this. Nothing constructive about those comments, they are just rude. It's astounding how some people have zero filter whatsoever. My relfex response (just because I've gotten to rehearse it so much over the years) is "Really? What do you mean by that?"

Have to say a few of the one-liners up there had me rollin'. :~D

Here's a badge for you to wear to work.

Pal, please do two things:

1) Watch a Bill Engvall video (if you havent already seen the skit that # 2 is referencing)

2) Print out 16 signs and be ready to hand them to these thoughtless women, while saying 'thank you, here's your sign'

Seriously - it's abuse, and you dont have to stand for it. Lot's of interactions of a similar nature between women are not of a truly friendly nature, it's glossed over, thinly veiled hostility. Worse, the fact that many of them do this means that it's become part of the cultural norm in the office, which means it is likely to continue until you call a halt to it. Yes, they may respond with shock, etc, but you';ve served as the recipient of their displaced, likely unacknowledged, anger, for quite long enough. Regarding gender, if you were a woman and being treated like this by a man, it wouldn't be considered brotherly kidding on his part, it would be consider mental abuse; in a workplace, it meets the legal criteria for sexual harrassment. I'm not saying they're evil, but they are bullying you, and it should stop.

I agree wholeheartedly with Stinky - ask them point blank if they would like you to say the same thing to them., and then walk away. If they go at it again after that (unlikely since it will seriously humiliate them internally to be confronted) respond once in kind, first citing it as an example. Expect them to be angry, to snub you for a while, to talk around the water cooler and in the kitchen about 'what a bad night you must have had' and 'jeez- you must have had a bad day', but also expect it to stop - the snubbing and attempting to laugh it off is a face saving measure but not an indication that they havent taken the warning - just maintain your dignity and professional demeanor, and it will likely end in the workplace being a much less toxic environment.

Most of all, realize that it's not really you that is the true focus of their anger and mean behavior - you are the currently convenient, safe scapegoat on whom they are expressing their anger by these back-biting remarks. That's not a role you should accept any longer - your role is to ensure they treat you with the same respect and professionalism you show them. If it means they need to deal with their displaced anger another way, well, that's part of being an adult and living in society. Don't accept their abuse a single day more - if you begin calmly confronting the behavior, it will likely be extinguished in a very short time. Take heart, too, in that there is absolutely nothing you did to encourage this, nothing you did that deserves this, and nothing about this you should accept as normal behavior that you have to endure.

And if you want one more laughing way to view taking on a bully, watch A Christmas Story again, paying attention to what happens to the bully when the hero's had enough of being bullied. Then print yourself a couple of signs to hand out at work. ;-)

Please let us know that this scenario is getting better for you - no one should have to work or live in this type of environment.

- Orchid