She's overdue. It won't get better, and she'll just be older in the same situation. As my daughter would say, it's time she puts on her big girl pants and does what she needs to do.

I'm just curious as to what happens if she attempts to stand up to him...like telling him she is not going to get up and get his beer for him, but that he will need to get it himself.

"the job she is at, won't employee her if she divorces.."
Umm, that sounds illegal. What kind of job is that?

One example of a husband asking a wife for something and she did it. Since then only saying it's bad then worse. I can't help but wonder if she's troubled with this marriage as much as are you? I don't know if it's bad, good, or simply misunderstood? How often these "episodes" occur could make a difference. Not having any idea what they are puts us in a position that it's next to impossible to know what's ACTUALLY going on to be able to form an opinion. It does sound like you've never really liked the husband there. Is that accurate?

For the sake of argument, let's say it's as you suspect. It could be she takes her vows seriously and many spots in the "book" are a source of contention for some people. Perhaps her religious beliefs tell her that these are the roles. I'm not going to get into a religious argument. It's ironic that this comes up now though. A friend's son has become very interested in religion and is studying the Bible a lot and just got his mother irked the other day when he mentioned what the Bible says a husband's place is in the home.

As for the job terminating her, if she's in an employment at will state, they can do it. Wasn't it Ross Perot who had a policy that he'd never hire a divorced person? I can't remember, but it was a high profile muckymuck.

Offering friendship and support are fine and what I'd suggest you do. I would not recommend getting involved beyond that. I don't think it'd be appropriate and could easily destroy your friendship.

Just out of curiosity, hasn't your husband ever asked you to get him something?

I can't help but think there's a lot more to this.

I lasted exactly two years in that kind of marriage. The day we married he seemed to think he owned me. I finally told him to hit the road after lots of marriage counseling.

Since she has stayed in it this long, I would stay until the youngest child is out of the house. A divorce...even over due...unless he is physically abusive...is hard on children, and especially teenage years which can be difficult as best.

For the most part, I agree with Cynic.

Linda hit the nail on the head...he thinks because the Bible tells him 'the man is the head of the house', he OWNS her! Apparently he only reads the part of the Bible he wants to....as so many people do.

Of course...there is alot more going on than what I wrote.

And yes, I get things for my husband as he does things for me. It is called Mutual RESPECT!

In Iowa...you can fire someone for no reason....stupid or what!

I agree with Cynic and Marilyn. Just stand back because you cannot fully understand what is going on.

And just because kids are older than 18 does not mean a divorce won't affect them. It's devastating to the family from that point on.

I would stay until my heart told me ENOUGH. I've tried everything I could try, I've done everything I could do, and I finally admit that my life is better without him in it.

There's nothing anyone else can say or do, if she isn't ready to be single. It is possible that the life she is living, is more acceptable to her than life on her own.

Another one chiming in to say I agree with Cynic and Marilyn.

As I read your post I understand that.. your friend was trying to settle her baby down, while the dh sat. Instead of getting the beer himself, he gave her the job on top of the baby. And reading into this, this is only the tip of the iceberg.

Sandy, you can see what a great marriage is all about, your friend thinks she has to endure her bad choice and /or she is afraid. My dh is alot like yours Sandy. I shudder to think of the few bad choices I could have made before him.
I do think of my dh as head of our family but he knows that means being kind and caring along with being a good decision maker. It wasn't always easy, especially in the beginning, still somehow we're meeting in the middle.

So to your question, I'm guessing about now would be a good time for her to go. I'm glad he isn't treating the kids bad, although I find that amazing. I would think there would be a little overlap of his meanness onto his kids. How could they not see this? And if they do, that would be reason enough to get out of the marriage. His terrible example of a good husband, would definitely effect them in some way. I saw my own dad bully my mom. ( and that's putting it nicely) It's as bad as physical abuse. He has no respect from me now and never will. I will say I learned what I didn't want from a marriage.

For her, the kids are the only reason to stay. Once they are gone, he's just the bully left over. I think by leaving now she has a head start of making her home while the kids are flying the coop, which is hard enough. She can find out what makes herself happy as the kids are making their own way out into the world.
Mental abuse is no way to live. I hope she finds her way very soon.

Wow, talk about hostility! Again since the few facts uh, allegations are still foggy at best all I can do is say best wishes to all of you. This certainly doesn't seem to be a dangerous situation for this friend, or her husband and certainly doesn't seem to be an issue to be concerned about the kids. Which tells me a lot and I think it's time for a deep breath and reconsideration. And I think it'd do you a lot of good too. Take care and good luck.

Well, I stayed for almost 28 years. The first few years were okay, but after that it was like I was who he wanted me to be and did what he wanted me to do. I almost forgot who I was. Finally after all those years I decided that I didn't hate him, but I wanted to be happy. So I left. I hated that I hurt him and the kids, but sometimes you just have to do what's good for you. I haven't regretted it.

Sounds like a Borderline Personality. I have a friend who puts up with it and recants every outbreak to me by phone.

I don't get it? I was married to a A$$ six weeks and divorced him. I'm less tolerant.

I'd remain married just to bug him, but I would definitely move out, get my own place and take the kids.

Way too long, unfortunately.

My parents fought like cats and dogs as long as I can remember. I used to cry and beg them to divorce, I would tell my Mom I would give her my babysitting money and we could leave! I became anorexic because I couldn't eat, my nerves were shot at 12.

Trust me it is NOT better to stay together for the kids, my life was hell living in that house.

If they are still together there has to be a reason, something you may be missing. Maybe what bothers you doesn't her? There is always a way out if you are going to go.

I would leave immediately even if I had to go to a shelter rather than stay in a miserable marriage.

I lasted exactly seven years in that kind of marriage. The day we married he seemed to think he owned me. I finally hit the road. We lived together for 6 years prior to getting married, so it wasn't the seven year itch. He was a controller...now he is alone and will be for the rest of his life.

I stayed a little over two years. Married in June of 75 and divorced by Feb. of 78.

I'm actually pretty committed to marriage for better or worse but I couldn't say much about the situation you describe by that limited description. I'm not a pushover though and stand up for myself as does DH. The worst marriage situations I've seen are where one spouse is a bully and the other one just takes it - and the bully isn't always the man. You really have to have some self respect and stick up for yourself from the start or it just gets worse I think. Some people prefer to keep quiet and avoid conflict and sometimes I think people fear they do not have the financial means to strike out on their own.

Cultivate happiness in your own life and concentrate on your life, not hers.

Well, if Sandy's friend has, after years of counselling, started looking for other employment and putting out apartment applications, it would appear that she has decided for herself that she has had enough and is planning her escape.
Personally I think it is a huge mistake to "stay together for the kids". The kids know their parents are unhappy. Sooner or later the parents resent the kids as the reason they have to stay in an unhappy relationship. They may try to hide this resentment but the kids will pick up on that too. Modelling an unhappy marriage to children is a huge mistake: they will grow up thinking this is the norm and repeat the mistakes their parents made. Is this what you would want for your children?
Like whidbeykathy, my parents had an unhappy marriage due to my dad being an alcoholic jerk. The day he finally left (when I was 14) was a huge, huge relief. If my parents had stayed together until we were 18 it would have been dreadful.

No one should stay in a bad marriage no matter what. My ex married me knowing full well I was a career military man and then proceeded to make life miserable until after three years I said enough and started divorce proceedings. You know it's bad when the marriage counselor tells you (me) "Your chances are slim to none to make this marriage work". This was at what was supposed to be our fourth session with him, but she refused to go saying she didn't like him. We weren't paying him to be likable, but to try to help us save the marriage.

It took me two and a half years to get the @#$@$ divorce as she kept throwing monkey wrenches into the works by sending new lists of "her" stuff. Lawyer finally had enough and said unless she sent a complete, final list, she'd get what was on the last list which was only four items.

Kicker came when I ran into a childhood friend of hers while back home on leave. Talk about awkward situations! Turns out they were no longer on speaking terms as ex bad mouthed me to the extreme.

If the marriage bothers you so much you want her to divorce her husband maybe you should divorce yourself from the situation. A woman and a man married in the eyes of God in a Christian rite are married until death do they part and let no man put asunder. If her Christian belief is that strong then why would you try to put this marriage asunder. You have voiced your concerns and have offered her and her children shelter and care if the need arises so leave it at that.
Since I am not of that particular faith and belief system about marriage I would leave the husband in a heartbeat, if consuling didn't work, rather than make myself miserable to meet his wants and desires over my own needs. Fortunately I had much better judgment and did not associate with or marry a man who was selfish and controlling. I understand not all women have the best of circumstances but the choice to be or not be with husband is entirely up to her ALWAYS.
Give her love and support in her choices but mind your own when it comes to the marriage situation. Offering your opinion constantly and making disparaging comments to her about her situation can cause you to lose your friend, even if she takes your advice eventually and leaves the brutish man. Your can be her friend and help her in the time of her need without making her do as you want.
LIL

This thing has bothered me from the start. One plus one haven't added up to a single digit number from the start. (sniff....sniff) Nope. Doesn't pass the smell test either. I think I may have figured this one out, or at least narrowed it down quite a bit.

I can't believe the ones criticizing sandy for her observations. I had a friend just like what sandy has described. For some reason (being co-dependant) or other, she didn't leave him. He did just what sandy described one time. Friend and I were in her kitchen getting a meal on the table. The guys were outside and friend's husband nudged my husband and said, "Watch this." Then he proceeded to yell that he wanted an iced tea and friend was to get it for him...pronto. Well, like I say, we were busy and the guys were doing nothing. She literally almost jumped out of her skin to get him a glass of tea. I told her to tell him to come in and get it and she said, "Oh no..I couldn't do that!" My husband was livid and we never went back....but, this was just one example of what I witnessed..which I am sure is the same with sandy...just one nail in a board of nails....she was just giving an example. This friend of mine would say, "If you're going to be a door mat, you're going to get stepped on." But..she was a living example of just that. The friend is a friend...you hate to drop out of their lives because of their poor decision to live with a bum, but that's what I finally did...just dropped out. This upset her very much, but I couldn't just go on watching it...now I don't have to see it. But..maybe sandy is a better friend that I was...I think it "is" her business if she is going to remain friends with this woman...it is right that she offers help.

I can't believe the ones criticizing sandy for her observations.
I agree. A lot of folks have assumed an awful lot of things, but that's pretty common here anymore it seems.

The worst marriage situations I've seen are where one spouse is a bully and the other one just takes it - and the bully isn't always the man.
I'm sad to say I have seen that also. Now he is 79 years old and still jumping and jumping at her every yell or cussing. He has just always done it to keep the peace, but it is sure hard to watch. I was embarrassed for him.

I read in Sandy's very first sentence that the wife is just waiting for the right time to get out. Whether she actually ever will or not is anyone's guess, but I sure don't understand the "sandy bashing" or why some think this smells.

Sandy, I would like to say that I would only stay as long as it took me to realize that the situation couldn't be resolved. Although I believe very strongly in the vows of marriage I also believe that mistreatment and disrespect by one of the parties voids the "contract" if it can't be honestly worked out. I couldn't stand to go through life with a man like you've described, so I think I'd do my very best to work on it (with him also working on it) and end the struggle if it wasn't successful.

Yep, a lot of assumption and arrogance in this thread by the usual suspects.

Sandy, I wouldn't stay 5 minutes if I wasn't respected. I did that when I was much younger and learned my lesson. I think she is very lucky to have you and Dean as a friend.

I stayed in my first for 10 years. I did it for the kids, and because I was afraid that I couldn't do it on my own.

You are a good friend. Just keep letting her know that you are there for her. That is all you can do-and that means a lot.

I had a great friend like you when I went through my bad marriage, and the thing that strikes me most is that even though she was my best friend, I didn't really ever tell her how bad my marriage was-I was too ashamed. Your friend could be in the same boat-even though you know her marriage is bad, it could be a lot worse than even you know.
Your friend will leave when the time is right-unless you have been in this situation, that sounds kind of lame, but it is true. When she is strong enough and ready, she will leave, and she will need you then more than ever.

Thanks to those that answered my question. I really appreciate that!!

Just for the record, I have never told her to leave. I have only told her that we would be there to support her...in whatever way would be needed if she decided to.

I take my marriage vows very serious, and those of others. There comes a time!!! And I believe she has done so much more than most people would/will.

I am Soooo glad that some have figured things out! Wow!

Sandy, I am so glad that you are there for your friend, and that she has had a confidante for all these years. I know of a few marriages like this one, they are so sad. In answer to your question, not long. Like Gayle, I was once in a very short marriage. Didn't take me long to figure out that he equated a marriage license with ownership papers. So even tho I was only 23 years old and unemployed I walked away and didn't look back. I did not have children, so I was able to be more independent than your friend.

I don't understand why the Sandy bashing either. From reading her post it was pretty apparent to me that it was not Sandy wanting the marriage to end but the wife, and that Sandy was being a caring and supportive friend.

I agree with Lynn - I'm sure your friendship is a comfort to her. I read your post as concern and looking for deeper understanding of what she is going through and her mindset.

staying "just for the children" is not the way to go. They see and hear everything and know what is going on. My parents are still together after 50 yrs. of marriage!! It was one of the worse times growing up. Myself and my 3 siblings were all affected by them staying together, one way or another. The verbal abuse is so degrading. The bottom line is now my mother is a miserable 70'ish woman. Give yourself and your children a chance to grow up without all of this verbal abuse. I wish her luck. I'm sure it's not an easy thing to do. I hope things turn out for her. You are a good friend for caring so much.

"Let no man put asunder." Why does no one ever apply that to the husband? In many marriages, isn't it the philandering husband, the abusing husband, the lying husband who tears the marriage into pieces and puts it asunder?
And even though the Bible is written as "he" and "man", don't we all agree that it applies to women as well. If the woman is the cheater, abuser, liar, then isn't she putting the marriage asunder?
I've never understood who the asunderer is....

Leslie/KS