"My wife wants the clean effects or something very similar."
-- Carrier (Infinity Air Purifier) and Lennox (PureAir) offer similar systems.

If the old 3 ton worked and did not run short cycles (i.e., it kept humidity under control), then I probably wouldn't change the size. But, your ductwork MUST be inspected and have any changes made if needed. Many FL homes have undersized ductwork, causing actual delivered capacity to be less, and less efficient operation.

Adding return air intakes can significantly benefit overall home comfort.

"One contractor said I need a 3.5 ton. Another said that if I get the Trane XL20i, I need a 4 ton since the smaller compressor does most of the work and won't quote me a 3 ton price. I know neither will get the tax credit."
-- The 3 ton XL20i with matching air handler should be a qualifying match. The units need to be sized to their maximum capacity. A marginally sized 3 ton ductwork system needing to move 4 tons of airflow will not be efficient or perform well. Oversizing and overlooking ductwork is one of the biggest problems in the industry, if not the biggest.

In your area, I would either install a properly sized single stage system (recommend the Trane XL15i or Carrier Performance 15) or a 2-stage system (Trane XL20i or Carrier Infinity), but the 2-stage systems add to the cost quite a bit. They are better at removing humidity with low stage, BUT with the right control the single stage units will do a very good job.

I do not recommend the XL16i. It is not a very good unit with regards to dehumidification (think I read that even in low stage on the XL16i the XL14i/XL15i still had more capability to remove humidity).

The best system is the one installed properly with the correct ductwork needed. How many times have you heard that? :)

Thank you.

I have to admit, I'm confused. I thought the XL16i would be the way to go as I had one contractor drop his price about a grand compared ($5830) to the XL20i ($7170). They are saying that it is a 2 stage compressor, which makes it similar to the XL20i 2 compressor system.

A different contractor quoted me about $400 difference from the XL20i ($5522) and the XL15i ($5167); I am waiting on his XL16i quote. He was the only one that went into the attic to look at the ducts.

Will the XL15i be able to remove the humidity apart the temp setting?

I guess the Trane XR14 isn't a recommended system? Is the XLi series really worth the extra cost?

-3 ton XL20i with matching air handler should be a qualifying match- how can you tell?

-BUT with the right control the single stage units will do a very good job- do you mean thermostat for the right control?

Following your thread at HVAC-Talk, but I'll respond here.

The XL16i is a 2-stage unit, but the specs on it aren't so impressive for a 2-stage unit (low stage is about 80% capacity, so not big difference between both stages; humidity removal capability is not stellar in low stage).

The XL15i when used with the VisionPRO IAQ is an excellent system that will remove humidity well with variable speed air handler and properly sized system.

The XR14c (newest revision) and the XL15i are basically identical performance wise, and other than the fancy cover and little less noise, no big difference. The XR14 now has a 10-year warranty on all parts when registered within 60 days with Trane. So the XLi warranty isn't a big edge anymore.

XL20i 3 ton with matching indoor air handler qualifies for the tax credit's standards. There's a database (AHRI) that has all the matchups listed with corresponding efficiencies and capacities. I'll give you a link below. Follow one of the first two links whether you're looking at a heat pump or air conditioner.

Yes by control I meant thermostat, specifically the VisionPRO IAQ from Honeywell YTH9421.

Here is a link that might be useful: AHRI

Thank you, things are starting to get clearer.

Trane XR14, Does it qualify for the tax credit? When you go to the Trane website, it says only 14 seer but the contractors say that if you have the right air handler, it will go up to 16, is that right? Wife wants the cleaneffects. Does the Trane XR14c qualify for the tax credit?

XL20i ($5522) and the XL15i ($5167) comes with the TCONT900. What would you get if you had those 2 choices? Isn't the TCONT900 essentially the same thing as the VisionPRO IAQ?

Are you looking at a heat pump or an air conditioner? The XR14 should have multiple qualifying combinations (indoor + outdoor units = total SEER/EER/HSPF). Get the full model numbers from the dealer, and I will look up the ratings for you.

Yes, there is an XR14 3 ton air conditioner combination that gets 16 SEER/13 EER and qualifies for the tax credit.

Model numbers are
4TTR3036C1
4TEE3F39A1

With the IAQ thermostat and CleanEffects this would be a great system. Be sure to register with Trane to get the 10-year warranty on parts. I would also suggest getting a BAYHTR1405/1410 electric strip heater for a source of heat to have. Your dealer may have been planning on including one.

shadypa

these are straight AC systems or heat pump systems?

your location is coastal or inland?

three ton systems?

The XL15i is not compatible with the TCON900 stat. Use the HW VP IAQ.

I would not recommend the XL16i period.

all three models(3 ton XR14c,XL15i,XL20i) whether AC or HP with correct var speed air handler qualify for the Fed Govt tax credit.

I like the XL15i best mainly on price but the payback with the 20i and correct VS air handler is certainly reasonable.

IMO

I really really appreciate all your help.

Dealer emailed back saying the "14i" is $4800. Would he mean that the Trane XR14c is called the "14i"? I am asking if it includes the VisionPRO IAQ from Honeywell YTH9421
and BAYHTR1405/1410 electric strip heater.

Yes, straight a/c with heat strips. All the dealers, and I had a bunch recommended against a HP saying that our winters are too short for it. Some here rarely use the heater. I need it though.

I am about 6 miles west of the coast.

These Model numbers must be really new as they are not on the trane web site yet. Man, that is cool! (pun intended)
4TTR3036C1
4TEE3F39A1

Not much price difference between the XL15i and the "14i," what would you do?

This is the reply from the dealer, yes, on a Sunday. He is small and new but trying hard.

This is pasted directly from the Trane equipment catalog:
3.0** 16.00 4TTR4036C1000A 4TEE3F39A1000A BAYHTR1410PDCC TCONT600 1200 37.0 28.8 58.0 23.5 21.0 150 1417381
TON SEER HEATER T-STAT CFM
THE LAST NUMBER IN BOLD IS YOUR ARI REFERENCE NUMBER. THE T-STAT HERE IS THE TCONT600 BUT IF YOU PREFER THE HONEYWELL THAT'S FINE TOO. THE DOUBLE ASTRIX AFTER THE TONNAGE SIGNIFIES THAT IT QUALIFIES FOR THE TAX CREDIT. LET ME KNOW WHAT YOU THINK. THIS IS BASED ON A 3 TON SYSTEM.

Sorry, I got that model number wrong above; should be 4TTR4036C, and your dealer gave you the right model numbers above. I agree with using the IAQ, and discuss with your dealer the feature of having it control the blower speed for dehumidification. Many installers are not familiar with the thermostat, so it's important they know how to operate it.

Looks like your dealer is quite responsive--that's a plus. You want a dealer that will be there down the road.

Also, the 14i is discontinued. But if he referred to the above setup as the 14i, he probably means the XR14c (4TTR4036C).

I am assuming that you think the XR14c is better than the 15i? It is about $300 difference in price with the XR being cheaper

What do you think about a heat pump?

shady

I prefer the XL15i over the XR14c. worth the difference. pair with the HW VP IAQ stat. no substitute please.

here is the AHRI performance/eff numbers.

1420267 Active Systems XL15I TRANE 4TTX5036A1 4TEE3F39A1 37000 13.20 16.00 1 RCU-A-CB 250 Yes

I personally think a 10 KW heat strip is too large unless it is staged with two 5 KWs.

I am not a fan of EACs like the Clean Effects. I prefer a good 4-5" pleated filter media cabinet where changeout is quick and easy with zero maintenance/cleaning.

IMO

The XL15i is worth $300 more. Little quieter, and 12-year warranty on compressor (again, register with Trane within 60 days).

The 4TTX5036A1, 4TEE3F39A1, BAYHTR1410, and VisionPRO IAQ would be an excellent system. And I agree having a 4-5" filter replaced 1-2 times a year is a great addition to a good system.

If you only run heat a few days, heat pump isn't worth the extra cost, which could be several hundred. Heat pumps are not all that uncommon in FL, however.

Thanks!
You folks have been SO helpful.

Wife wants to know why the cleaneffects is not favored. She saw a demo at Home Depot...

Concerning heat, I HATE the cold, I am from Hawaii. Florida is too hot and too cold. During the winter, I keep the temp around 71-72 degrees and will put a small heater in the kid's room. I run the heat easily for a month. I haven't asked how much a heat pump is as the dealers have been discouraging it.

I almost hate to ask this but I will. What do you think about the difference in prices for the XL20i ($5522) and the XL15i ($5167). According to the "Annual Cooling Cost Comparison" chart, I would save about $100/year for the 20i. Is it worth the price difference?

I am planning on getting the 10 year labor warranty as I don't want to worry about problems in the future.

shady

do you mind stating how far down South Florida?

as far as Clean Effects go, these EACs can be problematic for operation if maintenance/cleaning instructions/schedule are not followed to the letter. and I don't care what anyone says, most homeowners don't do it. I just like the ease of operation/changeout with the pleated media filter.

if heat is a worry, then stick with the XL15i in a heat pump. that is an attractive price though on the XL20i.

IMO

I live in Jupiter, just a little north of West Palm Beach.

The company that gave me the price hasn't been in business a full year yet but was the only one to look at the ducts and is answering my emails on Sunday. He said he is small and is working hard at service (it shows). He told me that he is in the process of getting the Trane rebate program-has the paper work done and filed but hasn't gotten the go ahead yet but is "dropping the price to less than what we would normally charge." I guess the price is still good?

My thought is that you have to start somewhere. He has 2 contractors as employees.

Opinions?

Your pricing seems very fair, especially for the 20i (if you're only paying around $3800 after the tax credit that's a steal). I typically like to keep things simple and not go with 2-stage units, but the 20i would be a good unit for dehumidification. Has the dealer ever installed one though? Does he know how to deal with the Trane control setup (ComfortLink II) and new thermostat? If you feel comfortable with the dealer, should not be a problem. I believe the thermostat auto-detects almost every setting anyway.

The CleanEffects requires a lot of maintenance and costs around $900 to install. Maybe less with this dealer's pricing though.

Sounds like you're dealing with a good, honest guy.

And yes, the 10-year parts and labor warranty is a great idea. Since the units already have 10-year part warranties, should not be too much more to add on the labor warranty.

Cleaneffects is included in the prices
UV light is included too but from what I heard, Trane doesn't recommend it. He will take $120 off the price if I don't want it.
It also includes larger duct work for the farthest bedroom and 2 jumpers.
The warranty is extra, $450. Permit is extra.

Wouldn't the tax credit bring down the price to about $4000 (without the extended warranty and permit)? For the XL15i, about $3700?.

I haven't asked if they have installed that unit before. He has said that he will make sure everything works, says the rooms that are cold in the winter/hot in summer will be working no matter what it takes. I believe him.

He, the owner, came to the house on Memorial Day to give me an estimate. He answers the phone.

Sounds like for the price, the 20i is the way to go. I plan on staying in the house for years but is worth the extra money compared to the XR or for a comparable Rheem?

I am very grateful for this forum. I wish I saw it and HVAC-talk earlier

The 20i is well worth the $350-400 over the 15i. You won't get that kind of pricing anywhere else. In your climate the 2-stage operation will be great to have. I assume he's including the matching communicating air handler (4TEE3C04) and thermostat (TCONT900).

On the mild days, if such exist in your climate, the 20i will run the smaller 1.5-ton compressor, allowing for long runtimes and better dehumidification.

In summary here are the systems I would consider:

1. Trane XL20i
4TTZ0036A1000A
4TEE3C04A1000A
BAYHTR1410PDC
TCONT900AC43UA

2. Trane XL15i
4TTX5036A1000A
4TEE3F39A1000A
BAYHTR1410PDC
(Honeywell model #YTH9421C1002)

I gave you full model numbers above. I do not think you could go wrong with either system. To be honest, I've never been to interested in the top-of-the-line units like the 20i (2 compressors linked makes me wonder what if one goes wrong, more expensive repairs, etc.), but in this case given your upgrade I do believe it is worth it. Registering the unit with Trane should get you a 12-year warranty on the compressor and 10 years on all other parts. Hard to come by in this industry. And those compressors should last much longer than 12 years if the unit is installed and maintained properly.

If you are close to the sea and run your A/C very often, Trane would be my #1 pick durability-wise.

Good luck.

shady

I have always believed that things that seem too good to be true usually are.

I have to admit I am concerned both on your pricing and the experience of your quoting dealer. I would be asking questions.

here is a snapshot picture of Jupiter climate. keep in mind they are averages and certainly don't show the high summer temps that this area gets. obviously cooling is more important than heating.

Climate averages for: JUPITER, FL, 33458
Hot weather Cold weather
Average days per year above 75: 366 Average days per year below 40: 0
Average high temperature: 90.1 Average low temperature: 66.2

I would be asking dealer if prices quoted take into consideration Trane's rebate program. Show me the math.I assume that the prices do not take into account the Fed Govt tax credit.

I am attaching a link to Trane's rebate program. You need to verify that this dealer is participating.

you do want a new refrigerant lineset.

IMO

Here is a link that might be useful: 2009 Trane Spring Rebate Program

I have about 3 dealers around the same price. They vary in different ways. 2 dealers include the Trane rebate, 1 is not in the rebate program yet as he is new. He said that he is reducing his price to compensate for it until he gets into the program-he is one I quoted the prices from. On my most recent email to him very late last night, I asked him, "I heard you about the Trane rebate program but let me know if it goes through, wouldn't it save you money as well?" I haven't received a reply yet.

Was the prices mentioned good?

Concerning the tax credit, One company has it in its estimate but I am keeping it separate. I want to compare apples to apples. The other two don't put it in their estimate because it is up to me to follow through on it. Interestingly, the "A" rated company from the BBB is the one that includes it in the estimate, The "B-" and the new company don't.

All the companies (about 7-10) said that they clean out the lines. Only one, the "B-" company replaces them.

I wished the average temps were true. One thing about this area is the humidity. It is dripping.

Again, Thank you for your help. I really appreciate it.

One company puts a Corrosion Grenade and a surge protector. Any thoughts

Follow up:
got the
Trane XL20i
4TTZ0036A1000A
4TEE3D04A1000A-with clean affects
BAYHTR1410PDC
TCONT900AC43UA
Corrosion Grenade and a surge protector
duct work
duct cleaning
12 year extended warranty, labor and parts, bumper to bumper
new copper lines
2 year free maintenance program

The contractor who answered my email on Sunday never answered my emails again-I was asking him about the responses from this forum.

I went with an A rated company.
They still have some work to do.
Installer didn't explain the thermostat and didn't set it up to adjust the humidity. It is leaking in the air handler. They wanted to come out to fix but my wife's parents came and she didn't want them to fix until her parents leave.

the machine must be pretty powerful as the garage (leak from air handler) isn't very hot, and it is keeping the house cool.

The clean affects looks different than the one you see at Home Depot. It doesn't have the pre filter.

One contractor had told me to continue with my old filter with the clean affects to really make sure the air is clean. The installer said NO as it will cause added resistance to the machine. Opinions?

I agree, no need to add air resistance.

What kind of leak does the air handler have? Water leak?

I think it is leaking on the top where it meets the plenum. The biggest gap they plugged with duct board, metal tape and covered it with mastic on the biggest area. The rest where the sides meet, they used the metal tape and covered it with mastic.

How long does mastic take to dry? It was installed on Sat, some parts of the mastic were still wet on Wednesday--around the area where I think the leak is.

They come tomorrow.

Isn't there a way to program the thermostat so I can adjust the humidity apart from the temp. I see where it is, adjusted it to 40 percent but it never gets below 50%. I called Trane. They said I did all I could do, now it is up to the installer.

The temp is set at 78 but it has gone down to 76 (old a/c could never do that unless it was early morning). Isn't there a way to program it where it set and no more?

The drain line either has some condensation or a leak. It seems wet the few inches of where there is no insulation.

Where is the thermometer for the outside temp on this Trane? I don't see it anywhere except on the thermostat.

Again
THANK YOU!

Update:
concerning the leak:
they went up into the attic and sealed the air handler from inside, taped up the joints on the outside, and it still leaks! They can't figure it out and will let the supervisor know.

The people that came, I think, do mostly duct work. They installed an extra return for the far room. Man, that is hard work especially in hot Florida

He said that the humidity is set and can't be changed?? I have the temp set at 78 and the humidity set at 40% but it rarely drops below 50%. I was hoping on setting the humidity low and the temp relatively high especially when I go on vacation. Something is goofy here, correct? What can I do. The manual has something about the Trane droop but the tech had no idea of what I was talking about.

Please help
One of the main reasons why I got this was to be able to set the humidity apart from the temp

BTW, I always keep the workmen supplied with cold drinks and fruit. I used to do that kind of stuff, made me want to take care of the homeowner.

The humidity can be adjusted, but 40% probably isn't a reasonable setpoint (try 45% for a low setting). I don't know exactly how the TCONT900 control operates, but it should be configured to slow the blower down to around 80% to remove more moisture. I would ask the company to have an experienced tech (with this control) come out to verify all settings are proper.

Thanks!
Read the manual
Found the installer codes and set it to 80% flow about 2 hours ago, humidity is about 44%! Outside temp is 75 (raining all day); inside is set at 78 degrees.

I thought it was supposed to do all this stuff automatically? I don't understand why I should have to do this. I know my wife wouldn't even begin to try to put in the installer codes neither would I as I wouldn't know what setting to put it at-but THANKS to you, I did.

What company did you go with? (if you are allowed to post that) or please email me with the information with ball park price if you don't mind. Looking to get a similiar unit and could use the referral. Thanks for posts - it helped me narrow down what i am looking for.