Appreciate thoughts on Carrier AC proposal for central air in MA

10 years ago

Hi
Been a while since I visited (3 years in fact since this forum helped me immensely with a kitchen remodel). Hope you can help me figure out an AC quote.
Background - 1600 sq foot, 1940's colonial in Massachusetts. Tired of window units (currently have 5 - total btu 36000) to cover 3 bedrooms upstairs, office and main living area downstairs. We get stretches of 90F/90% humidity but usually no more than 2-3 in a row and no more than 12-18 really hot days in Summer.
Point of moving to central air are for quieter system, no more 'losing' windows and cross breeze from June-Sept.

Have gotten three quotes so far. The one below is the cheapest and also from the most reputable company. This is the only company that actually measured out each room and determined best means of getting ductwork to cover first floor.

Total is $8600 which is actually quite reasonable in this state/town. I'm wondering about the 24ABC and whether it is worth an upgrade to the 24ACC? The units will be outside of the living room and in attic over guest room.

Thanks!

Install new air handler in the attic. The unit will be suspended from the roof rafters on threaded rod to eliminate any vibrations. There will be an auxiliary drain pan set under the unit with a safety shut off switch attached. The system will automatically shut down to protect the ceilings below. Install new copper refrigerant lines from the air handler to the condenser. Line-set will be covered with slim-duct. Install the outside condenser on a weatherproof pad.
Ductwork:
Install new ductwork throughout the home. The main trunk line will be metal wrapped with FSK R-8 insulation per Ma state code requirements. The supplies will be installed in the ceilings. All ductwork located in the attic will have a rating of R-8. All supply lines from trunk to ceiling diffusers will be insulated flex. Dampers will be installed in supplies to balance air flow.
Wiring:
Install new wiring from the sub-panel in the attic to the air handler and condenser. Install new digital thermostat.
Start up, test system and balance air flow.
Carrier Equipment:
3 ton,up to 16 SEER, Puron, Performance Series, Condenser Model # 24ABC636A003
3 ton, Deluxe Fixed Fan Coil with Puron, Comfort Series, Model # FX4DNF037000
Warranty:
1 year, 100%, 10 years on parts, 10 years on compressor (with timely homeowner registration; only valid on paid in full accounts)

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Comments (13)

tigerdunes
10 years ago
Just curious. How do you heat? Boiler? What fuel source?

Post back.

IMO
eoren1
Original Author
10 years ago
Gas fired forced hot water. Lochinvar Knight KBII (?) boiler.

We had an ancient forced hot air system but lost vents in opening up a wall between kitchen and dining room when we moved in 3 years ago. At the time, switching to new furnace and forced hot water made most sense.

Had all three companies evaluate existing duct work and none really recommended using it. All with what sounded like valid reasons.
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Since this isn't a typical replacement but rather a completely new installation with new ductwork, a load calculation is necessary. A new system sized and designed based on guesswork will do you no favors down the road. It's possible that one has been done, although often times they are not done, especially if it is a straightforward changeout and the previous size equipment "did the job." You should ask for the heating and cooling loads, in btu/h, from Manual J (method for load calculations). If a 4 ton is more appropriate, even if it's a 2-stage unit, a 5 ton system will be less efficient, cost more upfront, and likely dehumidify worse (due to running shorter cycles).
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Here are two AHRI matches which has the 60,000 BTU furnace which will provide achieve a SEER of 14 (last number in the string). 4816242 Active Systems COMFORT 13 PURON AC CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 24ABB342A50 CNPH*4321A** 59*P5A060E17**14 41500 11.50 14.00 4816334 Active Systems COMFORT 13 PURON AC CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 24ABB342A60 CNPH*4321A** 59*P5A060E17**14 41500 11.50 14.00 The 59TP5 furnace is multi-speed and not variable speed. There are many more matches using a different coil model which will produce a SEER of 13.7. You are not going to notice a difference in your electric bills between a SEER of 13.7 and 14.0. An over sized furnace will be constantly cycling and run inefficiently. You are much better off having the proper sizes at slightly lower efficiency. I don't understand his point about the 90% furnace and venting. He is going to have to explain this to you in detail. My advice is to meet with this contractor in person and go over all the options. The first priority is properly sized and installed equipment. You can achieve a higher SEER but it is going to require a more expensive furnace and AC condenser. I get the impression this contractor does not want to spend time analyzing the furnace and AC combinations to find something that would be the best fit. Perhaps the builder is squeezing him on the price and he feels it is not worth his time and effort. I feel your frustration as I would also be very frustrated.
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I wanted to thank everyone for the responses. We haven't made a decision yet, partly because we found another expensive project lurking for us: The chimney sweep came and discovered our chimney lining has deteriorated, something our home inspector overlooked. The sweep showed me all the terracotta that he cleaned out of our chimney. What's more, he said there isn't room to put in a 7-inch chimney lining, which is what's code, only 6 1/2. So that would require chipping away at the chimney from the interior of the house. Or, he suggested getting an electric water heater instead, in which case he could bring me down to a 6-inch liner. That might be the least expensive, least messy option. The other idea is to possibly make the conversion from oil to gas heat and vent it outside. I prefer gas heat myself, but the new boiler we inherited with the house is only two years old. Also we have some steam radiators--I don't know how easy that would be. At any rate, it all sounds like several thousand dollars, and we have a one-year home warranty that came with the house that I really hope covers some of this. In the meantime he cleaned out the chimney for now and we have a carbon monixide detector upstairs. I'll probably put up a separate post about this issue, as soon as I stop feeling sick to my stomach! Thanks again....
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Here''s an update for anyone following the thread. The furnace has continued to run flawlessly since I posted on April 24, and it's still getting cold enough overnight that we need heat first thing in the morning. I am starting to wonder if I had some condensation or other contamination in the propane supply that just took a while to work through. I called the same HVAC company to schedule the ICL for my York Stealth central AC. I asked for a different tech, since the first one seemed to really dislike my high efficiency furnace. So another tech came out, did the work on the AC and then we looked at the furnace together. The York Stealth (also 12 years old) needed 2 pounds of R22 but was otherwise fine. He advised against doing any repairs or parts replacement on the furnace at this time. He looked at the burner and said that is was fairly corroded, and that this might explain the problems, as the corrosion can hinder the free flow of gas across the burner. The first tech had told me that if the burner needed to be replaced it was time to junk the furnace. This tech told me that replacing the burner on this furnace was easy and that it's not an expensive replacement part. He also told me that this was a good, high end unit for York and that there's no reason why I shouldn't get 20 years of service out of it, particularly since I had been maintaining it well and using a 4 inch pleated media filter. So that's where it stands. When I call to schedule the annual furnace ICL this fall they'll give me a price to swap the burner at the same time and I can decide then if I want to do it or not. Thanks to everyone who responded. I'm glad I listened to you guys instead of the first tech and didn't blow all that money on the Carrier. I'm going to spend it on having the house painted instead, which will make my wife very happy.
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tigerdunes
10 years ago
Just to clear, you have been quoted the Comfort 16 series condenser not the Performance 16 which you listed as a possible upgrade.

If you expect superior dehumification, then then you want the FV mdl var speed air handler and of course Carrier's Edge thermidistat.

See below.

3631809 Active Systems COMFORT 16 PURON AC CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 24ABC636A**30 FV4CN(B,F)005 34200 13.00 16.00 1 RCU-A-CB 259 Yes

3632301 Active Systems COMFORT 16 PURON AC CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 24ABC636A**30 FX4DN(B,F)037 34200 13.00 16.00 1 RCU-A-CB 259 Yes

Both the system quoted and the other system I listed with var speed air handler qualify for small Fed TaX Credit. I believe it is around $300.

Since you are installing new ductwork, it must be sized correctly both supply and return to each floor. What does dealer plan on returns? And what has he said about filtering the return air?

Post back.

IMO
mike_home
10 years ago
If you plan to live in the house at least 10 years, then you should consider getting a quote on the Carrier 10 year labor warranty. It would be honored by any Carrier Factory Authorized dealer in the event your contractor goes out of business. One repair is usually enough to offset the initial cost of the warranty.
eoren1
Original Author
10 years ago
Thanks Tiger and Mike

Do you mean that this:
3 ton,up to 16 SEER, Puron, Performance Series, Condenser Model # 24ABC636A003

Is not a Performance model but actually a Comfort one?

Do you recommend the performance over the comfort? I see your listed models above are for the comfort series.

As for the second part:
3 ton, Deluxe Fixed Fan Coil with Puron, Comfort Series, Model # FX4DNF037000

Is this where I should be looking at getting a variable speed to decrease noise? This will be the unit in the attic - correct?

As for returns, there will be a single return at the top of the stairs on the second floor. The layout is very open downstairs and the expectation is that warm moist air would easily rise up there and be returned. Haven't heard anything on the filtration.

Good point on labor warranty. Plan to be here 20+ years. Will inquire.

Thanks again. Really appreciate it (as you can tell, totally clueless on this).

E
tigerdunes
10 years ago
"Do you mean that this:
3 ton,up to 16 SEER, Puron, Performance Series, Condenser Model # 24ABC636A003

Is not a Performance model but actually a Comfort one?"

Correct...

"As for the second part:
3 ton, Deluxe Fixed Fan Coil with Puron, Comfort Series, Model # FX4DNF037000

Is this where I should be looking at getting a variable speed to decrease noise? This will be the unit in the attic - correct?"

Correct, both quieter and better dehumidification with FV var speed air handler model I listed. You want Carrier's Edge thermidistat.

Dealer should get a properly sized return for downstairs main floor. Please discuss and insist on it. It will improve air flow and comfort.

Ask about filtering return air. Let's not do this install with shortcuts that will leave you disappointed.

IMO
eoren1
Original Author
10 years ago
Thanks again Tiger - for the detailed and incredibly fast response.

I will check with the dealer about the variable speed. They did mention in quote new thermostat but will confirm it is the Carrier Edge one.

The return may be a bit difficult given space constraints for the near term. However, next year, we plan to put in a 2 level addition (replace screened in porch with closed family room on first; master bath/closet on second). At that point, will have more room to add return and another vent to help with the part of house that will see least benefit in short term.

Hope that makes sense.

Thanks again

E
eoren1
Original Author
10 years ago
Got the response:

"I apologize on the typo regarding the model series. You are correct it is a Comfort series.

If you would like to change the air handler to variable speed model FV4CNF003000 the additional cost will be $425.00.

Further, the thermostat is a basic non-programmable Honeywell. The additional cost for the Edge thermostat is $250.00.

The humidity control is not something we see very often and would have to inquire.

We do not offer the labor warranty."

I think both are reasonable upgrades (unsure how cost is compared to expected). Somewhat troubled about the humidity comment. Seems like a nice bonus feature with the FV model.

Thoughts?
tigerdunes
10 years ago
To be clear, you want the Edge Thermidistat model over the regular Edge thermostat. There is a difference.

That's probably a fair upgrade price on the VS air handler, may be a bit frisky on the Edge thermidistat upgrade.

I would lean in that direction. However if staying with the fixed speed air handler as originally quoted, then the HW stat would be fine. Just depends on what you are looking for.

And please follow up with dealer on main floor return and air filtration.

IMO
mike_home
10 years ago
You should get a programmable thermostat unless you never intend to change the temperature settings.

Get the model number of whatever thermostat you are getting. Ask to double check the thermostat upgrade price. Change a thermostat is very simple if they can work with the existing wires. Pulling a new wire would add to the cost, so find out if this the reason for the high price increase on the better thermostat.
eoren1
Original Author
10 years ago
Hi Mike

I actually already have a nice programmable thermostat (3 in fact for 3 zones of heating) that does cooling as well as heating. Now that I know they are just planning on putting in a Honeywell, I would ask that price be adjusted to use the existing one instead.

I'm a bit stuck on the 'is it worth it' question. Will the variable speed be significantly quieter or offer better efficiency or some other tangible benefit to prefer it over the standard fixed speed model.

Thanks
E

Current thermostat: http://www.amazon.com/Lux-TX9000TS-Seven-Day-Programmable-Thermostat/dp/B000I7MANA/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1371658600&sr=8-1&keywords=lux+tx9000ts
tigerdunes
10 years ago
I'll just offer another opinion. I see too many dealers and homeowners try to take a cheap shortcut on using best thermostat for new system substituting an incorrect model or reusing existing. A dumb idea.

The dealers take the shortcut because they are stupid or looking out for their pocketbook. The homeowners take the shortcut by trying to save a dime that in fact cripples the capabilities of a nice new system.

Sorry, it's true.

IMO
Brandon Zimmerman
7 years ago
Hi E,
I know this is an ancient quote - but I was wondering who gave you this estimate? I ask because I got a similar package estimate and the quote is considerably higher.

Were you satisfied with the install?

Thank you,

Brandon

Appreciate thoughts on Carrier AC proposal for central air in MA

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