Understanding HVAC - how to know price?

14 years ago

We have just gotten bids from 4 builders for the reno of our house. All of them had their HVAC guys come. The house is currently 3040 SF, mostly built in 1926 with radiators, gas furnace and boiler (1995) in basement. An addition was put on the house in 1980s with forced air heat and ac. The ac system is kaput. We will be adding about 400 SF total, and renovating most rooms in the 3,000 SF, but not all.

This is what one prospective builder proposed at $28,500:

1st floor - 1 Gas Furnace 96% Efficiency,split into 2 zones

2nd Floor - 1 Gas Furnace 96% Efficiency,also two zones

Remove old duct work, radiators, gas furnace, AC unit and install

Includes - 2 Air Bear Air cleaners / 4 T-Stats /grills/Flexs/ductwork/registers/2 zone panels/4 zone dampers

Area / 1 A/C 3 1/2 Ton unit 13 seer puron

a new 70 gallon water heat

Steam humidifier for the 1st floor only

Does this sound right?

What do I need to ask builders to understand if I am being quoted the right kind of equipment at the right price? I don't totally get the HVAC stuff (which I'm sure is quite obvious from the way I have explained this!)

What do I need to know about energy efficiency/tax credits? Oh, we live in CT.

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Comments (6)

paulbm
14 years ago
we can't see it so its hard to go on pricing. If you don't under stand what they are planing to do then ask them to have the heating dealer to come out and show you all the engn. and have him explain what he to doing. If he want's the job, he will do this. later paulbm
ryanhughes
14 years ago
I too would want more than a builder's summary. See about meeting with the dealer, going over all that's being done, and getting all model numbers and work scope in writing with more detail. See about doing a load calculation to determine sizing, and proper calculations to determine ductwork size. 2 of the most important, if not the most important, aspects to the system.
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Wakko Price on repair may be on high side but not by much. I personally think it wouldn't be cost effective to repair unit. How old is system? I would not have a Payne. You would want the 803 stat for better dehumidification. BTW, this is a Honeywell stat just rebranded for Trane. the mdl number is #8321. What is mdl number of the var speed air handler? Makes a difference? What size heat strip? What about whole house air filter cabinet? New line set included? Here are a few ideas on HPs. there are three equally important components-quality HVAC, the install by dealer, and probably the most overlooked and disregarded is the ductwork system. these are my minimum specs for a new HP system. both outside and inside units should be replaced to have a properly matched system. 15 SEER, 12.5+ EER, 9 HSPF best matching VS air handler full BTUs in both cooling and heating for your rated size R-410a refrigerant(same as Puron) scroll compressor preferred electronic demand defrost preferred thermostat with "dehumidify on demand" feature staged backup heat strips new and correctly sized refrigerant lineset 10 yr warranty compressor and parts you want a thorough inspection of your ductwork system. size, overall condition, supply and return lines, insulation qualities, leak test, etc. any hot/cold spot issues in your home should be addressed. I would only use authorized dealers for the various brands that provide quotes. see mfg websites. I would look at Trane/AmStd,Rheem/Rudd,Carrier/Bryant. I would not purchase a new HP system that did not have electronic demand defrost. IMO
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I did get a Carrier quote - it was $12,000. No whole house filter, Trane 803 thermostat, new addition will take place, no new insulation upgrades, all old ductwork will be taken out along with the old gas furnace, new floor registers will be put in since I don't want to use the old in-the-wall registers. Toe kick in the kitchen. Also, they have to line the chimney to allow proper working of the existing gas water heater. The 2 Trane quotes are from Trane certified dealers who have great reviews on Angies List and BBB. Carrier quote is young guys just starting off their business. A/C coil is 4TXCB032BC3HCA. The a/c is a new installation. So there is more labor involved then a replacement. Includes 2 years parts and labor. I understand that replacing ductwork is a money pit but the existing ductwork just won't work with a new system. The main trunk gets smaller 1/2 down the length of the house, has all the wrong register fittings since they are for wall registers not floor registers and has more leaks and cracks then you can count. And has 50 years worth of crap in them. That said, if you do not add in the price for the ductwork, what would be a reasonable price for the furnace and a/c? That is what I really want to know. I appreciate any help or opinions.
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Thanks David.We live in Northern Lower Michigan, just above the 45th parallel. We do not have Natural Gas and Propane is our fuel source other than electric. My understanding is that we will seldom need the back up heat. The boiler set up seems like it will give us much more control over the basement climate and an endless supply of domestic hot water but it also seems like it will cost us a lot more in the long run vs. something like a Marathon Electric HWH. I also should say that your number is higher than any of the three I have gotten so far. This makes me less comfortable with the lowest number as I see many warn about cheap installs!
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Thanks for all your feedback. I received this email from one of the people quoting my system. Would like to know if this is sufficient for a house my size 2750sf and if not, what should I ask for to be included? I understand the returns are important. I'm located in Northern California and would only use Air Conditioning probably a couple months out of the year. this are the model #'s and specs on the Bryant 4 Ton heating and cooling system, *Furnace Model 915sa4808017 95% AFUE Single Stage 80,000 BTU *Condenser Model 105ana048000 14Seer AC PUR. *Indoor Coil CNPHP4817 PUR. Incased *Zone Control System- Ultra Zone Model NCM-300, Motorized Dampers Model URD 12" *Ducting- Sliver Jacket Flex Duct R6 Polyester Core *Copper Line set Mueller Industries 3/8"x7/8"x50' We can do the install for $15,500, all materials and labor included with one year warranty on install. Heating and cooling units under factory warranty. All work and materials up to code standards.
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fsq4cw
14 years ago
This is just Âfood for thoughtÂ, that there are other (green) alternatives to explore. You could install water to water or DX to water geothermal heat pumps that would use your existing (presumably cast iron radiators -1926) along with supplemental hydronic low (water) temperature fan coil units.

What you end up with is a hydronic heating & cooling (A/C) system that would likely be 300% ~ 400% efficient (as opposed to gas at 96%), not having to install any ducts or removing your rads, retaining the comfort of your radiant heating system and retaining the charm, historical and monetary value of your heritage home.

There is an emerging trend in high-end homes, new as well as heritage, to all hydronics. Geothermal bridges the gap between 19th & 21st century technologies.

Just a thoughtÂ

SR
valleigh
Original Author
14 years ago
fsq4cw
Any suggestions how I can learn more about geothermal? Is it a lot more expensive to install? We're on a very tight budget. I assume there's some tax credit for that kind of system??) Also, do regular HVAC people know about these kinds of systems, or do I need to find a geothermal company? Lastly, I thought I read somewhere that geothermal alone isn't adequate for northeast winters.

I don't even understand what water to water or DX to water means so I guess I have to do more reading.
fsq4cw
14 years ago
I would suggest following the link below to find a qualified geothermal installer in your area who would explain the technology and provide a quote. I would also suggest contacting a manufacturer such as WaterFurnace to likewise find a local installer that would be of help.

This type of installation would in fact be more expensive, however, the rebates and tax credits would be accordingly higher as well. The above-mentioned professionals would explain all this.

On the plus side, you will likely save 60% ~ 75% and perhaps even more on your heating costs, 40% ~ 45% on your air-conditioning cost and roughly 33% on your domestic hot water costs. A properly designed and installed system will also have lower maintenance costs as well and should be relatively maintenance free. There would also be no visible external mechanical systems, such as heat pump condensers, to detract from the architectural /heritage value of your home as these systems did not exist in 1926.

http://www.waterfurnace.com

SR

Here is a link that might be useful: IGSHPA, International Ground Source Heat Pump Association at Oklahoma State University
MiniSplit Heat
4 years ago
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Understanding HVAC - how to know price?

Comments (6)

paulbm

ryanhughes

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Understanding HVAC - how to know price?

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