The Goodman heat pumps will perform just as well as the others mentioned. Their product gets a bad rap because they can be easily bought by the home owner who in return more times than not receives a shoddy installation. It all comes down to the installation of the product. You will probably have a hard time finding someone reputable to install and warranty it if you buy direct from the wholesaler. You would really be rolling the dice in this scenario. As far as compressors go, the scrolls are probably the best.

I just read the "Goodman Air Conditioner" post from June 14, 2005. Answered a lot of my questions.

If you want it to last as long as the Trane you have now.Stick with the Trane or American Standard.Go look at both brands in person and you will see the quality difference.You get what you pay for in most cases.I agree with zzxx, a lot of goodmans bad name is from crappy installers and companies selling it because it is cheap.It attracts poor installations.Make no mistake about it their is a distinctive quality difference between the two.

Yea, the TRANE will last forever. Sure it will. I have a problem customer that is an old friend. I spend too much time working on his 2- TRANE systems. Both the 12 year old unit and the 4 year POS. They seem to take a dump weekly. I am the last of many Techs to work on the systems. I first got involved last summer when the new system would not work. I have not been able to keep that system working for more than 1 week at any time. Many little problems that were probably warrantee issues that were ignored. IMO this is the worst of the worst. At this time I am ready to replace all controls and the motor inside. The 2 year old replacement condenser on the 4 yrd old, is questionable. It is hard to tell the friend that he needs 2 new systems, because the previous techs screwed him.

On the otherhand, last week I installed a used system that had a 10-12 year old Goodman condenser and it looks like a winner. It is drawing low amps.( Still cool this week) The unit is old and the paint is faded, but it at least works. The installation of the system was a dream, and went smoothly. This is an old system, I don't offer a guarantee other than it works now. This is all the investor wants.

I did some more investigating and found that the 14 SEER R22 Goodman uses a Copeland scroll compressor while the 13 SEER Goodman uses a recip compressor. The price difference between the 2 is only $175 if I use a fixed speed fan in the air handler. I don't know the price of the Goodman 410 refrigerant 14 SEER, but it has a lifetime compressor warranty to the original owner.

Bob, maybe you should find someone qualified to work on your friends Trane systems if you cant keep them running for longer than a week.You can come up with some real BS.

I have decided to go with the 14 SEER Goodman w/multi-speed air handler (don't want variable speed fan), TXV, 15 kw electric strip heat kit, hard start kit, and bypass humidifier for $2313 out-the-door. No tax since I am buying it in PA and I live in MD. I have to pick it up with my Honda Civic hatchback (just kidding). Next step is to arrange an install by a pro. I should save about $2000 and live happily ever after.

One final note, Goodman is a name brand. Goodman sells many more units than TRANE ever imagined selling. Even with American Standard behind them, they are not even close competitors to Goodman and Carrier.

You right Bob.Goodman is not in the same class as Trane.I like the way you always type TRANE in capital, it shows you know its the best.I have some Goodmans in my scrap pyle you can have for your next job.No wait, we scrapped them with all the other junk units,sorry Bob.I did,nt see any TRANE units in the scrap pyle I guess they just dont wear out like some of the other brands.Hey garyg,why dont you call Bob to install your Goodman,hes cheap.Oh wait, you said you were going to hire a pro.That leaves Bob out.LMAO

I would have no problem with Bob Brown installing my new unit. I would get a good install at a reasonable price. Peace.

I would atleast gets some pics of his work first.He uses mexicans to do his manual labor.lol

Hi Garyg,
We communicated awhile back. Good luck to you on your new install. Let us know how it goes. I don't think you can go wrong given the route you have chosen if you get an experienced person to do your install. Your path is not typical, that is buying it yourself and getting it done, but it can work in individual circumstances. Is the air handler motor the new X13 by GE? It seems to be a nice middle ground between the old style and fully functioning variable speed.

JDB52:

I remember you and hope you are doing well.

The air handler is Goodman Part# ARUF364216 quoted at $599. I am not sure if it includes the motor that you reference. Please educate me as to the details of this new motor. I chose the multi-speed air handler (not variable speed) because I actually like a little noise coming out of the registers to drown out the street noise. Also, it would be inexpensive to replace versus the DC variable speed. I am also interested in changing the motor speed and seeing the effect on register temps as well as noise. The house is a moderate-sized split-foyer, about 1800 square feet, in Baltimore, MD.

I ordered the system yesterday and I'll pick it up sometime next week.

I would not think of replacing my current heat pump if it weren't for the local utility jacking up the electric rates by 65%. About 3 months ago, I locked in a 1 year generating rate from another supplier at 9.8 cents/kw-hr (plus 2.4 cents/kw-hr transmission). The current summer rates are 11.4 cents/kw-hr for generation.

A co-worker is replacing his 5-ton outside unit plus the inside coil from the same Goodman wholesaler. He's doing the job himself and I'm taking off Thursday, 5/10, to help him out and learn something. I'll have a pro do my install because I need the HVAC tech to braze the refrigerant lines in order for Goodman to honor their warranty. My replacement is a fairly simple swap-out with the air handler easily accessible in the laundry room on the bottom level. I was quoted $1200 for 2 people to do the install which makes the total price $3500, about $2000 less than a quote for a 14 SEER Trane install.

Take care.

garyg,

Here is some info on the GE X13 ECM Motor. It has the new ECM technology but still operates like a standard motor in that it has fixed speeds. I am sure it costs more but might be less that variable speed motors

Basic info: http://12.21.92.154/res/links/X13Release.pdf

An hvac-talk thread about it:

http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?threadid=109585

Some info on how they work with heat pumps:

http://www.acdirect.com/xcart/product.php?productid=1578

How all goes well and post how it goes.

jdb

Garyg,

For http://www.acdirect.com/xcart/product.php?productid=1578 link, click on Indoor Unit Details to get info.

Again,
good luck
jdb

JDB:

Thanx for the info - very interesting. I like the HVAC-talk forum. BaldLoonie is one of the participants there.

I did some looking and Goodman only offers a variable speed motor and a PSC multi-speed motor. I have chosen to go low tech on the air handler for reliability and lower replacement cost down the road. I don't have a large house with high vaulted ceilings in the southern part of the country so I don't really need the controls of the DC variable speed for air conditioning. I do need the heat pump to crank it out in the winter time so I decided to upgrade the outside unit to a 14 SEER with scroll compressor and add a TXV/TEV to the low-tech air handler. I'm trying to use what I think is best for my situation.

I'll update my progress when the project starts.

I helped a co-worker install his new 5 ton 13 SEER Goodman heat pump yesterday. The outdoor unit is supposed to have a recip compressor but his had a Copeland scroll. I guess they used what was available when they built his unit so he got the benefit.

I had an Amana central a/c and gas furnace for 18 years. Only 1 problem during that time that cost me $36.00 Last year due to the high cost of propane gas I decided to change to a heat pump.I called the same guy that had originally installed the Amana and told him my plan. I was going to get another Amana since I had virtually no problems with the old one. He told me that the Amana's are made now by Goodman and that the Goodman would be just as good and a little better price. I went with the Goodman and so far mine has been fine. I got a 14 SEER unit with the variable blower. It also has the Copeland compressor and that has a lifetime warranty on it-as long as I own my home. I think a lot has to do with the installation of the units and the ductwork. I have had several people comment on how quiet mine is inside when it is running. I too have heard some that there is so much air noise you have to turn up the tv to hear it when the blower is going. I think you will like your unit. I like mine so far but it may not last like the Amana, but it has a good warranty!
BTW-Is the Copeland comp. better than a recip. one? I think they are supposed to be more efficient-right?

Sparky:

You have the 14 SEER with R410A refrigerant which does indeed have a lifetime warranty on the compressor. Copeland scroll is also the preferred compressor in the industry and is an upgrade from the 13 SEER unit. You pick-up another 1/2 SEER point with the variable speed to make you 14.5 SEER in the summertime. You also have a high 8.5+ HSPF (Heating Seasonal Performance Factor) rating for heat in the winter and your heating bills should drop like a rock versus propane.

Best of luck to you.

Goodman does sell a lot of equipment- why? Because it's cheap- that's it. Their systems don't last long, so they get to sell more of them. Contractors installing equipment in new homes must compete for the bids and contracts- Goodman allows them to install cheaper, so even more Goodmans are installed. Ever go to these nieghborhoods after a few years? How many Goodmans are left? I have replaced many many Goomans after 5-9 years because the customer got tired of having it repaired. Think about it- 1/2 the price! What does that say? Quality?
Theres more to an A/C system than just price. There are the indoor coils which are responsible for removing humidity in order to provide comfort in the home. The goodman has 2-3 rows as compared to the Trane and American Standards 4 rows- a colder deeper coil for better humidity removal. The Trane coils are bigger, some much bigger- better capacity. Trane builds their own compressors and the scroll and reciprocating compressors are the finest built. *Of all the Tranes I have installed in the past 16 years, I've had two failures and neither failure was the compressors fault. The spine fin outdoor coil retains it's efficiencey better and longer as it ages and gets dirty as compared to the goodmans fin coils. Tranes outdoor units will not begin to rattle and shake, as well as the poorly constructed indoor goodmans. Tranes indoor systems have a better static psi and will deliver more and better airflow. You will not be happy in the long run as you would with the Trane system.
Anyone, any contractor off the street can buy a Goodman. You must be a Trane dealer to sell Trane and have experience with their equipment.
Realize that if you buy the equipment, the contractor that installs it for you will not provide any warranty labor for free- you will have to pay him his labor and materials for any repairs and that can cost you.
I hear all the time that a quality installation is all that counts. Well I tell you, if you install equipment with known problems, all the good installations won't make poor equipment, good equipment.
I see hear all the time from customers- "I wish I would have went ahead and spent the money for the better system".
I am a Trane dealer and have been working Trane systems since 1982. I have been in this business since 1974. I work on all brands and have seen them all. There are a few great systems out there. Some that are cheaper and suprise me sometimes on how long and well they last- Goodman isn't one of them, unless you happen to be the lucky one. :)
One of the jokes around here is "Should I buy a couple of window units or a Goodman system? They both cost about the same."

Amen daddo.

Hello,
The first time I saw the spine finned coils, I shuddered in disbelief. This was in the mid 1970's. The last time I saw a spined coil, I shuddered in disbelief. A good friend had 2 systems on his house. IMO, this is an example of very poor engineering at it's very worst. With all of the claims of superiourity, It is a great smokescrean. I spent several hours trying to clean one 2 weeks ago. I kinda cleaned it, but it was only half as good as a regular coil.

I ask anyone, why is only one company using this technology? Why did GE sell the technology many years ago?

If it is so good, why doesnt several coil manufacturers get on the bandwagon. Why don't commercial systems use this technology. It has been around for over 30 years. It ain't new technology. Why does the #1, and #2 HVAC companys not use the technology if it so great? It aint so good. TRANE isn't even in the top 4 sized companies.

This is kinda like Apple trying to tell the business world that MAC is worth the increased price. It may have some superiour parts, but overall, it is a computer that very few people are trained to use. In fact most of it's current application programs were originally written for the PC.

In TRANES defense, they have to do something to justify the extreemly high cost of thier average equipment, that fails as often as anyone's stuff. It does'nt save additional money in operations, It uses plastic exteriour parts that will crack in summer heat. The plastic is more polluting to produce and causes more greenhouse emissions than steel products.

I told you before to leave the Tranes alone Bob .They deserve to be worked on by professional HVAC technicians not you.If you did,nt notice your goodman and amana are powder coating their units to look like a Trane.Very close colors also.I think thats funny.Keep typing Bob,you get dumber with each post.

Quote;"I ask anyone, why is only one company using this technology? Why did GE sell the technology many years ago?

If it is so good, why doesnt several coil manufacturers get on the bandwagon. Why don't commercial systems use this technology. It has been around for over 30 years. It ain't new technology. Why does the #1, and #2 HVAC companys not use the technology if it so great? It aint so good. TRANE isn't even in the top 4 sized companies."
__________________________________________________________
When Trane bought GE in 1984, the technology of the spine fin coil and everything else went with the deal. There are still many GE systems out there working after all these years (23-30 years). I don't remember seeing any goodmans that old. Trane tried the flat finned coils a few years back in the 14 seer class systems, but discontinued using it because it just didn't provide the consistant subcooling they wanted. Other manufacturers don't use this spine fin technology because of the high expense in producing it, some even have other companies make the coils for them.
Just what is the #1 and #2 systems made today? Where does one find the documentation to support that? What is the definition of #1- most units sold or most reliable? If I sold a million more defective items than my competitor, would that make me #1? A deceptive claim to say the least.

If the Goodmans are so bad,then how can the company warranty them like they do? Looks like if they know they aren't going to last long they wouldn't give them a lifetime compressor warranty? I think you can just get a bad one of any brand. I have a friend that has 3 Lennox units in their house and one of those units has been junk almost from the beginning.Another friend has a Janitrol for 10 years and they have had no problems. Where I work we have all Trane units and I don't know about the residential ones but the commercial ones give problems,heat and a/c. They have the repairmen there quite a bit. I think it is just a chance you take with anything now days from a Lexus to a heat/cool unit--they all can be headaches.

I realize that I am taking more of a risk with the less costly brand of Goodman versus A/S, Trane, RUUD/Rheem, Carrier, Lennox, etc. I have decided to go one-up from the builder's grade 13 SEER and go 14 SEER in an effort to gain in quality. I have also chosen to stay with R22 as the 410A runs at much higher pressures but Goodman uses the same inner-coil for both systems (not sure about the outside coil).

Maybe the Goodman works out fine, maybe it doesn't. Maybe the next generation of heat pumps is leaps-and-bounds over the present generation in technology and pricing. Maybe in the near future geothermal prices come way, way down and the government provides hugh incentives for them and/or residential solar power. Who knows, only time will tell.

Garyg,
I think you have a high probability of creating a good system. I am sure you have read about Goodman's history and why some HVAC pros have problems with the brand. But, the primary problem seems to be installation failures which you are avoiding with your plan. Having said that, I think most realize that Trane has something going with it's heat pumps, but you pay for it also. Just because Goodman isn't quite as good a product doesn't mean it won't perform well.

Depending on just how many more systems you think you need to install given your age, if it's more than one, here's a link to a thread that talks about the future. It's the inverter technology sold by the Japanese which is found in some mini-split systems. Nordyne already makes one but it is expensive. In my opinion, it's going to take 10-20 years before this product becomes affordable, but this is the future, I think. It is a fully variable system, including the compressor, which exactly matches output to need, hence it is very energy efficient. As usual, the Japanese seem to be waiting wisely to take over the HVAC market as they have auto.

http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=136645

take care,
jdb

JDB:

Thanx for another excellent read with the hvac-talk link above. I wasn't thinking anything specific about the next generation of heat pumps when I posted earlier, but that article hit the nail right on the head. If electric prices continue to skyrocket, and the government offers some incentives like they should, and competition between manufacturers gets going, these systems may be cost-effective in 10 years. So, in that light, the new heat pump has to last until the next generation is introduced.

Update:

I picked up the unit yesterday and after looking it over while having a few cold ones have these comments:

Outside unit

- The 3, 4, and 5 ton units all use the same housing size of 36"x36"x38" which is huge. This is 14" more in length and 14" more in width than my current unit. I'll have to do some hedge trimming to keep a good clearance around the new unit.

- There is indeed a Copeland scroll compressor.

Air Handler (multi-speed)

- Sheet metal is thin and flimsy.
- Screws hold all panels in place. No latches for quick removal of panels or to access the air filter.
- Foil faced insulation on inside of all 4 sides from top to bottom.
- Plastic drip pan on the bottom extends up to an L-shape on one side of the housing as far up as the centerline of the fan motor to protect the foil insulation from condensation splash.
- TXV/TEV is installed on the outside of the air handler. This will look funky when installed. Not sure if this is done on other higher end units.

Quote from daddo.

"There are the indoor coils which are responsible for removing humidity in order to provide comfort in the home. The goodman has 2-3 rows as compared to the Trane and American Standards 4 rows- a colder deeper coil for better humidity removal."
- My indoor unit does indeed have 4 rows of coils.

garyg,it has a L shaped pan so you can lay it horizontal.Make sure the panels are on when you install it or you will bend the airhandler out of shape.Most new coils have the TXV installed inside the cabinet with the coil so make sure it gets insulated well or it will sweat all over and drip water where not wanted.good luck

Bama:

Thanx for the education on the L-shaped pan. I wasn't thinking that it was there for horizontal installation but it is indeed a multi-position air handler. I thought it was some improvement by Goodman (stop laughing).

All panels will be attached when the unit is installed in a week or so. I have them off as I look at the air handler and ask myself "Is that all that's in there?"

The TXV comes with an insulating jacket. I may screw a metal guard to the cabinet to help protect it as it looks like it could be vulnerable.

Although the outside unit comes with its own filter dryer, I will probably install another one on the 3/8" outside line. I will also install a liquid line sight glass with the filter dryer as I read that these are very helpful in identifying potential TXV problems.

Thanx.

Gary,
Could you provide some information for the Goodman wholesaler? I am in Montgomery county, MD. If it's not that far, I will also like to buy one from PA.
Thanks
Frank

Frank:

DESCO Energy is over the Maryland/PA line.
26 North State Steet, York, PA, 17403.
(717) 846 - 3384.

They are listed as an A-Plus dealer on Goodman's website.

Best of luck to you.

Thanx, Gary.
Frank

I was looking at the outside unit and was surprised to see a TXV valve. I assume it operates when the unit is in the heating mode and doesn't have a function in a/c mode. I also figure that it helps to increase the HSPF rating a little.

I will be installing a TXV on the inside coil. Any issues with a TXV on both the outside and inside coils?

Hi Garyg,

Regarding the TXV on the condenser, I'm surely not an expert, but I have read about these on heat pumps. Your right, it's there because it's a heat pump, and in heating mode, the outside unit functions like the inside unit in summer, thus the need for TXV.

I was looking over the air handler and measured to see what size filter it would take. I measured 21 inches x 24 inches between the 2 channels for the filter. Thanks Mr Goodman for not using a standard sized 1" air filter which would make life easier. They sell a washable filter that's properly sized but I don't want it. I also don't want a 4" media filter or similar add-on. Looks like I can use a 20 x 24 which is not carried by HD or Lowes but will be special order, probably over the internet.

While I was moving the air handler, I heard something rolling around. I thought maybe I had left a screw in the area where I had attached the resistance elements. I counted my screws and I wasn't missing any. I did indeed find a screw in the blower fan housing. It was larger than any of the screws that I was using. I looked and couldn't find where it may have come from. This would have made a nice rattling noise when the fan operated or could have even damaged the fan.

Hi Garyg,

It's nice of you to continue posting your experience with Goodman. It could be of service in helping people understand the pros and cons of the brand.

Update:

Before the install, I did wind up modifying the track in the air handler for the 1-inch air filter. I used 2 pieces of steel banding, 2 inches wide, cut to length, and placed them over the manufacturer's track using a few dabs of automobile body putty (Bondo) to keep it secure. It is now a smooth track for the filter to slide on. Goodman used the track as part of the frame of the air handler so it had some crimpings in it and the filter would not easily slide in. I also trimmed away some foil faced insulation that prevented the filter from seating properly. A 20"x24" filter now fits perfectly. I am glad that I did these minor mods as I would have been fighting this monthly when I change filters.

The unit was installed Friday, 6/22, after I had it for about 5 weeks waiting on the installers. It took two guys 8 hours. I fed them both breakfast and lunch (I treat my installers well). The old supply air plenum and the plenum after the air handler had to be replaced to match the new unit. The old 5/16" liquid line had to be replaced with a new 3/8" line. 3 holes were cut into the finished ceiling and 1 in the wall so that the new line could be run. I'll repair the holes when I get a chance - no big deal. The TXV sticks out about 8 inches from the air handler. Looks funky and I have to be careful not to hit it while moving things around in that area.

The old outside unit had sunk about 4 inches into the ground. I filled the hole with soil that I was saving, packed it down, put a plastic condensor mounting pad on the dirt, and used 3" thick brick to elevate the outside unit (which is huge in size compared to the old 7 SEER unit; 14 SEER = more coils = larger unit).

The outside unit is much more quiet as expected but the new mult-speed air handler is also a little more quiet than the old one. The fan is set on low speed and I'm not sure of the setting of the old unit as the lables on the motor had worn away after 21 years.

The sheet metal in the new air handler is flimsy and the track for the air filter can be improved by Mr Goodman. The outside unit looks decent. These comments were also noted by the installers.

I plan on taking the outside and inside coils to a local scrap facility and sell the copper. Maybe I can get a few $$ for a couple cases cases of my favorite beer.

I can now start saving 40% on the cooling and heating part of my energy bill and use this to combat the 65% increase in electric rates in the State of Maryland.

All in all, I thought that I got a good value for the money spent (only time will tell if I made the right choice with Goodman). I got a 14 SEER system with Copeland scroll compressor, thermo-expansion valve on the air handler, hard start capacitor, 15 kw heat strip kit, bypass humidifier, and 10 year parts warranty for $2477 from a local HVAC supply shop. I paid $1200 for a pro install (needed the pro install for the warranty). Total cost was $2k less than...

Garyg,
Thanks for the update. Looks like you've done a good job. You have bucked the odds. This is not exactly what most pros recommend. But, you have purchased the unit yourself, maintained the warranty and gotten a professional installation. Congratulations. I hope it works for you until the next generation of systems which will be completely variable, becomes widely available and affordable.

jdb

I finally got around to taking the old coils to a local metals recycler. I cut as much copper off the coils as possible and I separated the copper from the coils - I'm glad that I did. The outside coil turned out to be all aluminum and was worth 50 cents/pound to the recycler. The copper/aluminum inside coil was also worth 50 cents/pound. The copper was worth $2/pound. I received a total of $52 for all of the metal, enough for 3 cases of Yuengling or Molson Golden.

Gee if the Goodmans are so bad why do they keep outselling the other brands,not just because of price.Eventually people would catch on,don,t you think?Plus the warranty is good.I,ve seen Goodmans at my condo complex and they are running just as long as the Tranes,Carriers,etc.