heat pump selection advise requested

13 years ago

Been reading all the blogs and have gotten several quotes on different units. First I'm replacing a 2 1/2 T unit that mainly serves the bedroom with a vent to a hallway and the livingroom (another unit also vents into livingroom from the other side-probably poor original design but that's what it is). Should I install 2 1/2T or should 2T be enough? Found out they put in a 4T unit on the other side where it should have been 3T but that might have to be replaced soon as well. Got quotes on Lennox, Carrier Comfort Series, Trane XR14 and Trane XL15i (all 15+SEER rating). Replacing an old R-22 unit. One installer said he wouldn't need to replace the lines - is that correct? I thought there was some difference in size. Most only have 10 yr warranty on parts-1 yr labor except Trane XL15i which costs much more. Is it worth it? Any comments about what would be best. Lennox is cheapest and I had it before and it was fine. People tell me it's gone downhill. Need to make a decision within the next week - need to know exactly what questions to ask.

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Comments (3)

tigerdunes
13 years ago
texas

these are my minimum specs for a new HP system. both outside and inside units should be replaced to have a properly matched system.

15 SEER, 12.5+ EER, 9 HSPF
best matching VS air handler
full BTUs in both cooling and heating for your rated size
R-410a refrigerant(same as Puron)
scroll compressor preferred
electronic demand defrost preferred
thermostat with "dehumidify on demand" feature
staged backup heat strips
new and correctly sized refrigerant lineset

you want a thorough inspection of your ductwork system. size, overall condition, supply and return lines, insulation qualities, leak test, etc.

any hot/cold spot issues in your home should be addressed.

I would only use authorized dealers for the various brands that provide quotes. see mfg websites.

I would look at Trane/AmStd,Rheem,Carrier/Bryant.

---------------

if you even have a doubt about the correct size, then ask dealer to perform a load calculation for correct sizing. what is the size of the living area that this system will serve?

I will provide a link to the software and you can perform the load calc yourself for a small fee.

Get a quote on Trane's XR15. It should be less expensive than the XL15i.

Is the fed govt HVAC tax credit important to you?

IMO
Good Luck!

Here is a link that might be useful: Residential HVAC Load Calc Software
max566
13 years ago
I am going through a similar situation on replacing an old heat pump. The 'switchover' from R-22 to R410A is a real racquet.
At any rate, on replacing the old refrigerant line- I have been advised by 4 separate contractors as well as other research that the old line MUST be replaced.
For a new unit to be installed and to work properly as it should, the old R-22 line may contain contaminants and obviously has also aged. Any previous contaminants could well cycle back to your new compressor and as a minimum shorten the life of your new compressor- My understanding is that is this were to be the case, it would void the warranty on the new compressor due to incorrect installation, etc.
Replacing this line can be a real headache as it runs from outside to inside , meaning it will have to go through a wall and then probably through the joist channel in ceiling or wall meaning they may have to cut holes in your plasterboard- most HVAC guys will cut the hole , but NOT fix, so you may have to hire a guy to repair the palsterboard.
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Hello, Heat pumps originally were for areas that did not have gas or propane available. A properly designed system, will not affect the heating or cooling by using a heat pump or gas. Gas produces a hotter air always. Electric is a cooler process. Heat pumps are cooler than electric. A heat pump is cheaper to operate than resistive strips. You need electric strips or gas for aux heat. Always. Depending on what is cheaper, a dual heat system gives an option as to what utility is used. Either gas or Electric. Once again, if the system is designed properly, the method of heating will be invisible. For most home designs that have multiple stories or larger than 2000 sqft, multiple systems is the best way to design to. Very few installers know how to design multiple zones that really work, with one system. Furthermore, In Texas, My part of H*ll, It is impossible to design a system for a larger house without using multiple airhandlers, to achieve the minimum standard, and have the system work. It is impossible using equipment made today. Consider radiant heat in the floors, for your base heat, and the heatpump for cold days. The heatpump will also provide cooling. IMO, SEER is unimportant. Most higher SEER systems will never save the additional cost to upgrade, before replacement time. If your PCB fails, you will never recoup the initial expense. Furthermore, using 410 systems causes more maintenance. Expensive maintenance. F22 may not be available, but there will always be a substitute freon available. Probably long after you are dead and buried.(407) Furthermore most HVAC guys do not understand SEER. They think they do, but are incorrect. Builders know even less about SEER. Variable speed IMO is hype. It has a purpose, but as a remedial system when trying to correct high static from a fpoor design. When a variable system runs at less than full speed, the capacity of the system is reduced. If your BTU needs are 36000, then a variable speed system at 5/8 speed will never produce 36000. It may produce 20000, but never 36000. If you need 36000, then anything less will cause the system to run longer, and cost more to operate. The system will then need more repairs, because it is running too long. Pay for a manual J. Design the system using a manual D. Design the system to have unique systems for each floor. You may share the basement with the 1st floor system, if the basement is underground, otherwise use a seperate system for the basement. Consider solar water preheating (hot water & heating) with a boiler. Hot water heat will probably be a better quality heat and the solar will help reduce utility costs. Look at foam insulatipon and the savings of energy costs. Foam will pay for it's self within a few years. Use double or triple insulated windows. Seal all possible air leaks, use insulated recessed lighting when appropiate.
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Thanks to everyone for your input. Based on the feedback from the pros so far, I see that next steps are as listed below. Please let me know if I've misunderstood or missed anything: 1 - Ask dealer to provide, in writing, load calculation support for a 2.5 vs 3 ton system 2 - Ask dealer to provide, in writing, that existing ductwork (both supply and return) is sized correctly to handle the additional CFMs provided load calculation indicates going up in size to a 3 ton condenser. 3 - Ask dealer to provide, in writing, that existing lineset is sized properly to manufacturer spec and ask dealer to warranty any future issues with lineset (critical parts are connections at each end) $1000 to replace is not advisable unless existing lineset is not properly sized. 4 - Get additional quotes on equipment noted in proposal #1 from other Carrier dealers (along with load calcs). Current dealer pricing is very high. Remove Greenspeed model 25VNA036A003 from scope given we have a gas furnace for the first floor (this is overkill) 5 - Existing proposal for backup heat model FC-2901N09 is satisfactory (9KW that is field convertible to 3 phase) Ask dealer to install staged heat strips and specify in proposal. 6 - Continue to use current 4 ton central A/C until it dies. Not necessary to replace at this juncture. 7 - Discuss lock out temperatures with installer to ensure proper energy usage. Some additional comments/concerns: @tigerdunes - in response to your last post, we are running emergency heat strip intermittently for heat. I have been turning the fan on upstairs to draw heat from the first floor furnace to keep temperature comfortable on second floor (around 68F) Thankfully, there hasn't been a need to keep emergency heat on constantly. @tigerdunes - thank you for suggesting additional equipment. In your opinion, is the incremental cost of the two-stage Infinity 25HNB636A003 (proposal #1) worth the investment vs. the lower priced systems you suggested? I'm trying to make the best cost/benefit decision since we do not have any plans to move from this home. If it were your home, what equipment would you choose? @mike_home - you noted early on that the proposal pricing for #1 seemed high @ approx $7K. Is there a price range that is more reasonsable for a 3 ton system provided everything else remained constant - same backup heat, infinity controller, using existing lineset? What about a 2.5 ton system? (i.e. $5-6K for 2.5 system is fair, an additional $500-$800 for a 3 ton system, etc) @mike_home - you recommended getting a 4 inch media filter. Dealer proposed upgrade to a Aprilaire 2210/2410 Air Cleaner for $300. Is this worth the additional investment or do you have another suggestion? @ryanhughes/tigerdunes/all - you indicated the existing VP 8320s could be reprogrammed and used. Since they are full touch screen models that appear superior to the SYSTXCCUID01-V Infinity controller proposed which isn't a touchscreen, I was curious to the advantages of replacing vs. using the existing ? What are the drawbacks? I'm very pragmatic about changing my filters every 3 months so I don't need a controller telling me to do so if that's the only advantage. @ALL - Should I only pursue Carrier dealers at this juncture for quotes on equipment? Since I have multi-speed Carrier 59TP5 Performance Series 95 gas furnace, I am assuming you all are recommending that I do not pursue Trane/Lennox or another manufacturer as it would create a mismatched system? This was the one point I didn't hear a lot of feedback on other than the Trane having true electronic demand defrost. Again, MANY THANKS to all of you for the invaluable advice.
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texashomeowner
Original Author
13 years ago
Thanks for the replies. First, dealing with replacing the lines. Have asked the two installers - both reputable companies - if they would replace the line - and they both said no - that there would be no need to replace it. When I asked this morning about the difference between the R22 and 410A line size, they said that they have found that it will work fine. Of course they said that they do flush the line and make sure it's ok. Should I pressure them on this? The other person (it's his company) said also that he wouldn't replace the line. There was one person who mentioned that he might just seal up the line and run a line on the outside of the house into the attic - but as I recall that person was a lot more money - but I mean a lot - like around $9500!

I do think the best thing to do might be to just replace what's there with the same size. Asked the dealer which was better and he said he's had good luck with Lennox and that Trane is considered best but he's had some problem with the evaporator coils (says the copper has to be so thin due to SEER ratings that it causes problems). Guess they'll all be switching over to aluminum but not yet. There seems to be a difference with the XR14 and the XL15i trane of about $1,000 but the difference may also be mainly because of the additional labor warranty.

By the way, I do get a state rebate of about $1500. And that's why the unit has to be operational by June 15th. Getting further quotes for the 2 1/2T units. Some people tell me the air handler has to be 3T since the inside units don't come in half sizes. Any ideas about the Lennox? They just started installing Carrier so don't have a lot of personal experience with them yet. They said Rudd was a mid-range unit but would put it in if I requested it. My other quote was for a 2 1/2T Rudd for about $4900.

heat pump selection advise requested

Comments (3)

tigerdunes

max566

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texashomeowner
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heat pump selection advise requested

Comments (3)

tigerdunes

max566

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texashomeownerOriginal Author

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texashomeowner
Original Author