First of all, I just want to say that you and your husband are saints! I initially thought you'd be saying you wanted to take in Sue and DH would object. That he is so on-board is quite amazing.

Is Sue 12? Do I understand that correctly? If so, you are in for some very complicated years as she moves deeply into teenagerhood. It is a tough time, even in the best of circumstances, particularly for girls. If you preceed with this plan, I think the sooner you make the move, the better, perhaps. The longer you wait, the more of a teenager she'll become...it will be hard to make a difference, IMO. She is still a little girl, in ways and may be easier to reach right now.

I also think that of she's not hanging with the right people, making a break could be a chance to start fresh and get in with a nicer crowd. Not sure if it will work or if it is an issue.

That said, do you have any idea how Sue would feel about this? No matter how dysfunctional a family may be, there are very strong ties to parents, particularly mothers. To leave is to acknowledge the problems and "condemn" the parent. Most children cannot take a rational approach to this very overt step away from the family of origin without feeling some degree of guilt.

Wow - you are so kind-hearted!

I think absolutely, it's worth a shot. I worked briefly at one of those "homes for troubled children" and honestly, I think most kids come out of there more screwed up than they went in. They're surrounded by other bad influences and even though there are counselors and resident assistants and therapists, the peer pressure is a stronger influence.

I have a few concerns -- one is you need to watch out for your younger children. I'm not sure how "screwed up" Sue is (it sounds like it isn't anything a little consistency and a positive role model wouldn't fix) but you want to make sure that she isn't taking her issues out on your young children.

Also (and more important, I think), I worry for Sue's younger sister. She'll be the only "ugly stepsister" left in the cinderella family and you already say she is suffering. Will the loss of her sister (and only true ally in the family dynamic) put her over the edge? If she's going to lose Sue to a group home anyway, I guess that isn't a factor - Sue would be gone either way and she'd certainly be better off at your house with people who love her. But I'd at least think about whether you are prepared to handle both the older girls should the younger sister take badly to the separation.

Amy - yes Sue is 12yrs old. I also think that the move needs to made quickly. The time that I've always spent w/ Sue has always been a 'concentrated' period of time. It's never been just a visit for a few hrs. here and there. It's always been me down there w/ them for vacation at their house or her up here w/ me for a few wks. each summer as my work would allow. I guess I kind of see this age as being a 'make it' or 'break it' kind of age for her too. I've often thought that she needed a fresh start.

I think Sue would be very happy. Especially at the thought of being so much closer to her grandparents. She's always very excited to come spend time w/ us. I agree that leaving a parent regardless of the circumstances could 'condemn' the parent but I feel very strongly that it takes a village and to try to impress upon Sue that view. That it is not a lack af failure on anoyone's part but sometimes we all need a change to regroup and get back on track.

lkplatow,

I would have to say that the fact that we have our own younger children and how she would be w/ them is the only reason that I haven't been making arrangements yet. You know my first thought was, how deep is this going for her and excactly what is she doing beyond the lies and stealing? My experience w/ her being w/ our children (or anyone else's for that matter is that she has always been a fantastic caretaker and minder of the kids. I'll be quite frank when I worry about molestation and would she be inappropriate in any way? I hate even thinking that but as I said - who knows how deep and what other mianifestations are there? I have always carefully observed her w/ them from afar and when not able to I have carefully spoken to our oldest son about time spent w/ her.

Sue's younger sister? Honestly I wouldn't take her. She is treated like a princess and that she does no wrong. DS even says that she gives the younger girl more attention because she thinks Sue gets too much. I know that Sue little sis nds. help and has never been to a counsler. DS doesn't want to hear it. There have been 1 too many dead animals turn up when the younger girl is around. I won't even trust her alone w/ my animals to the point that I've tried to discuss it w/ DS but she shuts me down ASAP. The 2 girls can't stand to be w/ eachother and they can't stand to be w/o eachother.

If we all potentially agree to this I would fly down for a visit and schedule time to speak w/ Sue's counselor first before telling Sue what we would like to do. It's important that I have all of the facts from everyone.

One other difficulty to consider is that your niece would be leaving her friends and schoolmates behind. While they might fall into the bad influence category it will still be hard for Sue to leave them and make new friends in a new school. If she lives with you does your school offer counseling? I think it's wonderful that you and your husband are willing to take her in.

"You know my first thought was, how deep is this going for her and excactly what is she doing beyond the lies and stealing?"

Please understand that the following comment is my opinion only and does not in any way reflect on what anyone chooses to do -
While I commend you for your kind-heartedness and wanting to help Sue, I would be extremely leery about bringing another dynamic into my family. It's one thing to bring a positive influence in because even that might put a strain on the family. To bring in an admittedly negative influence in while you still have young children at home is risky, at best. But that's just me. I couldn't put my family in possible jeopardy no matter how much I wanted to help. It goes along with my skeptical and cynical nature, but those personality traits of mine have kept my a$$ out of many unpredictable and sometimes threatening situations.

I think that if you and your husband have the means and desire to help a child - especially a family member, then you should do it. Sometimes doing the right thing isn't always the easiest. You could have a profound affect on this child's life and she is young enough to be able to turn her behaviors around before she hits the hard teen years. If you turn your back on her, and bad things happen to her, you'll always wonder if you could have made a difference.

That said, you do have a responsibility to also protect your own children from harm and negative influences, so while you need to help this niece, I would not trust her to be alone with your children or "in charge" of them for any period of time until you get to know her better and your family and her are adjusted to each other etc.

I would also set down the ground rules from day one on what you expect from her - chores, behavior, school etc. She knows she's in trouble and you're stepping in and keeping her from some type of institutional school/home, so while be loving and supportive, let her know you're the boss and she needs to follow the family rules.

I have a sister who is 10 years younger than I am and at 14, she came to live with us. I had 2 kids at the time. She only stayed for a year. Overall, I think that the experience was generally positive for her although I think that it would have been better had it been for a longer period of time. I also realize now that at 24 I was not as ready to help her as I might have been had I been older and wiser. Some things to consider will be discipline. It will come up at some point, how are you going to handle it?

It could be a very bumpy road but that does not mean it is not a worthwhile trip. Some of the bumpiest, difficult roads lead to very spectacular views.

MrsMarv - trust me - I hear ya! I'm pretty (ok - very) cynical by nature too. She's always been nothing short of fantastic when w/ us except for the usual little things and our kids really do enjoy spending time w/ her. It's her sister that makes me uncomfortable. Up front w/ us (and everyone else) she is nothing but pleasant. Both she and my sister have a real thing going on because they are so much alike, but even when spending extended time w/ us or when living w/ our mom, even then mom has said it's far more pleasure having her around than the little things that many young kids do.

I've left message w/ my sister to elaborate w/ me about the 'disturbing' findings of the psychologist. When I'm w/ them it's not uncommon for me to hear them just launch into her about something little in front of her siblings and it escalates into such a horrible thing. It just seems like a vicious cycle.

She does have a friend here at my place (our neighbor) that she spends time w/ when she is here. They are the same age and she is very sweet and shy. She also has a bunch of friends up at our mom's place from when she lived up there and finished out the school yr.

Our district does have a counselor.

Only you know what is right for your family. It sounds like you'd be going into this with eyes wide open. My only suggestion would be to trust your gut. If it feels right, absolutely do it: if it feels even the slightest bit "hinky", your prescient nature is working.

I have worked for a state juvenile justice agency for the past 15 years and have my master's in social work. So many kids grow up in such difficult situations. It is just heartbreaking.
That being said, I think it is wonderful that she has such a caring aunt and uncle. What is most concerning to me is that a counselor (psychologist? social worker?) is recommending that she be placed in a treatment center. It's very important that you find out what your niece's diagnosis/issues are from the counselor, not from your sister. If the primary issue is family conflict, then living with you may be a good solution. If there are psychiatric or sexual abuse issues, I would not even consider having her in your home, since you have young children.
No matter what you end up doing, you can be an important mentor and source of support for her. That is critical for adolescent girls and could make all the difference for her.
Good luck with your decision!
Jen

Ttodd, it is wonderful of you and your DH to seriously consider taking Sue in. It sounds like someone needs to step up on her behalf.

If she is getting into trouble where she is at, a move and some new friends may be a good thing. I'd have her evaluated by nothing less than a very good Psychiatrist (MD) before you decide. I don't have much respect for counselors, especially when it comes to children. Most of Derek's 'counselors' had more problems than he did. A good Psych evaluation may be helpful. Kids with undiagnosed/untreated issues are more likely to self medicate, etc. If she has ADHD, etc., getting real treatment may turn her around.

I hope you can help her. It may be lots of work. Do you work outside the home? I suspect she may be a full time job, at least for awhile. Get her involved with activities that are wholesome. If she wants to quit one activity, fine. Just as soon as she chooses what she wants to do instead.

If you didn't feel a little fear in your gut, you wouldn't be normal, IMO. I'd make an appointment for her with a good *Psychiatrist* ASAP and read the evaluation carefully. That is step one. You need to learn as much as you can re: what you may be getting yourself into.

jlc - thanks for your input. I am very curious about this 'Psychologist'. My sister did specify pyschologist in the e-mail but then she's also used the term counselor interchangeably.

Meeting w/ the 'psychologist' is one of the things that I would absolutley need to do and if it is a psychologist or counselor worth their weight then I should think that they would accomodate me.

Golddust, I do work PT 3 days per wk. (2 of them long & 1 I'm done before school lets out) but DH's family has welcomed her into their home and are willing to help out when possible. My MIL thinks that Sue is a wonderfully sweet girl. My work situation is also one where I would more than likely be able to make arrangements to pick her up from school and drop off at my MIL's down the road from my work until DH is done working.

If it happens it doesn't matter if she stayed w/ us for a month or a lifetime as long as it works for everybody. We're no strangers to hard work. The sweetest things in life happen often after some of the hardest work.
I checked out the home that they want to send her to and it at least looks like family counseling is mandatory. I couldn't find any complaints about them on-line.

Here is a link that might be useful: Eagle Ranch

Ttodd,

I read everything on Eagle Ranch's web site and I left feeling pretty impressed. They work with the parents as well as the kids, which may be better than simply removing her from the family. Clearly your DS needs a tip or two on parenting. It's generally never 'just the child's fault'.

I think I would be tempted to encourage her to go to Eagle Ranch for now as long as the family is making a commitment to attend.

Derek was young and challenging. When I ran out of ideas on how to handle a situation, I would attend counseling instead of sending him. I didn't want him to think there was something wrong with him. If I wasn't parenting him well enough, then I went out to gain more parenting skills.

Sometimes we can label our children as troubled and they just seem to follow the path we set for them. Families and teachers can easily create 'bad' children. Eagle Ranch would surely recognize and deal with all the family dynamics.

I know everyone is going into the worst case scenarios here and surely you should be aware of them as possibilities but I just reread your first post after reading the entire thread and I think it's quite possible that the reason Sue's counselors are suggesting the group home is that it will be better than her home life. It's clear your sister is unable to cope with her own life (sometimes worse than others) so I am guessing that she is probably not doing a very good job coping with Sue's problems, if she is coping with them at all. She may feel that by sending her to counseling, she IS "coping" and doing the best she can for Sue - but counseling alone will not help her if she is not being supported in a loving, structured, consistent manner at home and there is no way she is given what you've said. My guess is that there is no deep dark skeleton lurking but that the counselors figure after 3 years and no progress they are obviously not getting any support from home and want to immerse her in the kind of environment that might help her.

It definitely seems like you are going into this with your eyes wide open. I'll be interested to hear what other information you get from your sister etc. Also, is it possible to have her come stay with you on a trial basis? I would not tell Sue that it was a trial basis, but maybe that she is coming to stay with you until some end date so you can see how things are, get her started with a psychiatrist etc and if things really aren't working out, she just goes home at the pre-determined time (and it's not like "oh things aren't working out so we are shipping you back home, bye!"). If things do seem manageable for you and fine for your kids you can make it a more permanent thing. Seems she's spent extended amounts of time in your neck of the woods before anyway.

I think Eagle Ranch should be tried first, then if it isn't working, maybe consider jumping in after that.

Since Eagle Ranch works with parents, I think the counselor may be suggesting the entire family needs help. Sue needs a respite (at Eagle Ranch) while the parents re-learn how to relate to their daughter in a healthier, more effective way.

If the counselor thought she should be out of the family, the counselor would be recommending foster care, not Eagle Ranch. If Foster Care was on the table, Ttodd wouldn't even have bothered to ask us. She'd have already been on a plane to get Sue, I suspect.

I think Lisa offers some very good points. Maybe an extended *visit* with you and your family. Could your sister pull herself together with Sue out of the picture for a bit? Is she getting counseling herself? Where is Sue's father in all this? (Forgive me if you have posted all this, I have read through the posts in a bit of a hurry).

Before you do anything, I would definitely go and talk with the counselor or psychiatrist (whatever) and get the whole picture. I personally believe it would be better for Sue to be with family, if it is the best thing for her to be out of the home for now. It sounds like you and your husband could offer a loving home to Sue. I also agree it would be good for her to be near her grandparents.

I'm not trying to be mean, but do you think your sister can/will step up to the plate and do what is best for Sue? Will they really commit to family counseling? It concerns me the situation you have mentioned with the younger sister. There could be some real problems there. How will your sister deal with two children with problems? Not to mention the younger children.

The counselor/psychiatrist may not have even brought up the possibility of a family member stepping in.

Please keep us posted on this and I commend you for looking out for your niece and trying to do what is best for her.

tina

I just did a quick read of everything, and I agree with the others above that said (no offense) it sounds like your sis can barely handle herself, much less *five* children, and without having a spouse that is there to help her every day consistently. I would bet that is the crux of the children's problems. I like lisa's suggestion of the "extended visit" - it does sound like there is hope for the girl if she is only 12 and if you think she was basically loved and cared for as a very young child. And finally, I do wish you the best - you sound like a really caring person to even consider this.

golddust said "I didn't want him to think there was something wrong with him."

That would be my fear with Sue. She has already been abandoned by one parent (her bio father) and now will be abandoned by the other (who has already abandoned her in the past to check herself into a treatment center) to an "institution." Whatever they say, whatever they do, it's still a place she has to go away from everyone she knows and loves because she has done something bad.

At least at ttodd's house she would be going to be with loving family, not because she's been bad at home but because she is loved over at ttodd's/grandma's/great aunt's. Something like that could make all the difference in the world. I am sure that the folks at Eagle Ranch know what they are doing and I'm sure they have successfully dealt with harder cases than Sue 's before but I am not sure that's the best avenue to go down.

But then, I don't really know crap. Just putting my gut feelings/reactions out there.

You and your husband are very kind and thoughtful people. And this is so timely. I've been considering something similar but a lot more complicated...

Red

My story. My stepson was raised by his extremely dysfunctional mother. Professionals called her delusional, unstable and she also has a drug problem. We tried repeatedly to gain custody of my SS but were unsuccessful.

When he was 5 years old we were told that without INTENSIVE treatment, he'd be in group home by his teens. His family dynamic on his mothers side was that she had a girl by a never-seen ex. Then SS (DH was not with her, but he tried to be a part of his sons life), and then there are 2 younger siblings by her (now ex) husband. Similar upbringing as you describe with your niece.

When my SS was 15 he came to live with us full time. He'd spent summers and alternate weekends with us for 10 years. We tried to make his life as normal as possible, DH keeping him in baseball as that was the only real constant in his life. His mother moved very frequently and we had to get a court order to keep him in one school.

Anyway, our home life was stable, normal and the 3 kids that lived with us were happy and SS was not treated any differently than them (except my DH had a tendency to be a Disneyland Dad).

When SS lived with us F/T we were able to get him back in to counselling. He quit every single counsellor we tried. By the time he was 16, we couldn't even ask the counsellors why he quit due to HPPA laws.

SS went on to abusing drugs & alcohol. He is very likely schizophrenic, but we can't get a diagnosis (he's now 24). He physically assaulted DH and was arrested. He was arrested again for kidnap, GT auto, and domestic abuse (beat up his GF). He's currently serving time in prison for drug dealing and his other assault charges.

Over the years DH and I came very close to splitting up due to the tensions of trying to raise SS. We tried to love him but he refused to accept us as loving. He had tremendous guilt for having a better life with us than his siblings had with their mother, and this came out in violent ways with him.

My opinion is that you really need to find out what her physch diagnosis is. This girl will need a lot more help than just a loving home I suspect.

My heart breaks every day when I think of my SS. After the age of 9 he quit smiling. Every single photo we have of him after he was 8 or 9, he's scowling. I mean EVERY ONE. He is full of anger and guilt and he's extremely selfish...he refuses to accept blame or consequences. If your niece exhibits traits like that, I don't think just giving her a loving home will help. We thought love could change, or at least help my SS. We were wrong.

I hope your niece isn't like my SS. I really hope you can let her know you love her and support her and she can accept that. That will go a long way with her. Blessings to you.

I haven't been in your situation, but a very close friend of mine just did this. The child involved is older (16) but she'd been having a really hard time due to her parent's divorce. Bad company, bad behavior, etc. They have moved her across the country (as far as possible in Alaska) and it's working out really well. She's already happier and so far, though there have been bumps to work through (discipline, past freedoms removed, etc) they are happy they've done this. Getting her out of her fathers home (she'd chosen to go with him despite the fact he's a drunk) has been beyond good for this girl. We're hoping she'll be saved verses going down the road she was traveling over the last three years.

They also have children in the home, two small children, so they were concerned as well what it would do to their family. They were really open about the fact that if it didn't work, this was her last chance. She's embraced it and is back to the lovely girl we used to know (I've known her for years as well and saw the progression going downward). She is required to go to a professional counseler weekly at a minimum for the first year. They have agreed to negotiate it after that point.

It could be good, it could be bad, but if you get half the satisfaction that they've gotten in seeing this beautiful girl find herself again, it will be worth it. And as long as there aren't really bad behaviors, it could be a good shake up for your family as well. But you also know it could be bad....so just be careful, open and clear that it's a last chance if you go forward.

I wish you the best of luck with the situation. You and your husband set a great example of what family should mean!

First of all thank you all so much for your thoughts, ideas, opinions and advice. I'm about in tears writing this because you all have been kind and generous enough to take the time to put your 2 cents in. Or is it because of Pesky? I know it's both!

Last night while talking w/ our mom and dad about it DH sat on the sofa and blurted out 'I want her here,she needs us'. My mom is for her being here,my dad thinks that Eagle Ranch is best. He doesn't think that she'll do well in a 'big city school'. My mom and I both asked him if he ever noticed how adaptable she is when she is sure of her family. IE when she is w/ us or them (grandparents). Our parents said that the psychologist has said that she is an unremorseful child. No danger of hurting herself or others.

The more I read the posts and the more I think about her family situation the more I'm thinking maybe Eagle Ranch might be the better choice for now simply for the reason that the WHOLE family nds. help. Parenting & better couples education has to be learned by my sister and BIL otherwise Sue will go right back to the same situation. Although it does appear that Eagle Ranch would still keep her if they felt the family situation wasn't worked out.

Our dad spent 5 wks. w/ them all this summer when DS had her 5th baby. Dad said it's a family mess down there in the fact that once BIL is home DS lets all of the discipline up to him and they aren't on the same page w/ discipline at all. Not even in the same book but DS won't do anything. It's almost like BIL's punishment for having been gone working. Our dad said things run much smoother when BIL is not around. Again not BIL's fault - like I said he's really nice and has talked w/ DH & I at length about things, his marriage, parenting, etc. Even calling us when he's on the road just to talk.

But how well will that work once BIL is called away for work which he always is? And he can't quit his job because work is so scarce down there.

We've tried to get them to move closer to us in an attempt to have them be around better role models and have familial support. We have discussed offering him a job once we buy the business we will are purchasing when the owner retires and they are both all for it but who knows when that will be.

When I talk to DS I'm going to pitch the alternative and ask her to approach the psychologist about it. There really seem to be pro's and con's for both. I can't offer stringent family counseling and they really need to have Sue there to do that.

Our parents, DH and I discussed how we could support Sue should she go to Eagle Ranch so she knows that she's not abandoned and that this isn't all because of her. That she's a valuable and loved child who is cared for very deeply by many people. It involves a lot of letter writing and calling and doing special things from afar.

My dad said there is a cut off age for Eagle Ranch. Maybe if she goes to Eagle Ranch and they see that family counsleing isn't working but see our support and commitment to her maybe that could work to everyones advantage.

You all have been so helpful!

My only concern with the Eagle Ranch option, is what makes you think that your sister and her husband will go to family counseling and put the effort into changing their family dynamics? It seems that while your BIL is a decent enough guy, he doesn't treat his Step daughters the same as his biological children, and what would incent him to change? They don't seem to think they have any problems, it's all your niece's issues.

I think Eagle Ranch may offer your niece some more structured counseling, but also keep in mind she's going to be surrounded by other troubled youth, so you need to consider what affect that might have on her.

You can't save the entire family all at once. I'd look into the Eagle Ranch option, but also consider if she came to live with you, if the long term the option is for the entire family to move and work with your family business, she could then move back in with her family if things improve and they're all living locally.

I just don't see how Eagle Ranch is going to be a good option if she returns to a crazy family environment? If there is a cut off age, what happens when she gets to that age? Does she get sent to another institution for teens or returned home?

Unless she has serious psychological issues that make her dangerous to have in a private home with small children, I really can't imagine institutionalizing a 12 year old has any real benefits over a stable family home environment with actual family members.

Just my two cents! I know you're in a difficult position and there are no easy decisions/answers.

I've been following this thread, T. Don't really know why.

For some reason, I have an uncomfortable feeling about Sue's younger sister. You've been around these girls for some time now and I trust your judgement about their dynamics. The fact that Sue is the one who has been recieving the counseling and the other has been left to her own devices, doesn't sound very healthy.

I agree with caroleoh. Is there much to gain by surrounding her with delinquent children, only to have her return to an out of control younger sis, who will now be even older and possibly more disturbed? And the label "unremorseful child", sheesh, if it works for her sister, why should she feel remorse? Institutionalizing a child should be a last resort, IMO.

Another aspect that is a little controversial (besides institutions in general) is the bible based approach. Do you think that it has merit? I'm not going to offer any thoughts on that as it's a very personal opinion.

I shuddered when I read about the dead animals. That is the most serious sign of a disturbed child and I think that real problem in this family could be misplaced in regards to Sue.

This is a very difficult decision and I wish you and your husband the best in your search to do what is "right" for your niece. My only comment is that if you do take your niece into your home, you do this as a "forever" choice. I say this for two reasons:

1) She needs to know that this is her safe haven forever, not just a year or so. This will give her incentive to begin building the life she wants, not just reacting to the life she was given. This will give her long term security.

2) Taking her in for a year or two, having her "straighten out" then to have your sister say, "come home now", will be horrible for your niece. Being brought back into an environment that hasn't changed much since she was gone will be detrimental.

I am concerned that your sister will not give you permanent custody of her daughter. Additionally, because of the guilt your niece will feel for leaving her mom (and your sister for letting her daughter leave) I think it is very possible that there will be a lot of yo-yoing back and forth. This won't be a good thing. I don't have any idea how you could stop this from happening, but I think it's something you may want to account for as you try and decide what is the best solution for your niece.

Those are my thoughts anyway. I know you and your DH will find the best way possible to help your niece. Best wishes and good luck to the both of you and your niece.

Sue is at such a fragile age. Stability, love and good parenting from here on out will chart the course of her life. I wasn't going to weigh in because this is such a deeply personal decision with myriad ramifications and only you and your DH know if you're able to provide the support Sue needs, but your last post prompted me to ask you to please reconsider. It's such a lot to ask, but you are blessed with a wonderful husband who seems more than willing to give this girl a chance.

I've volunteered with two agencies that provide residential treatment programs and, while it can be beneficial for those who have severe problems with no other options, it definitely is not the best answer for a child like Sue. So many of the children have devastating emotional problems, and sharing close quarters with the more troubled teens does adversely impact those who had fewer issues to deal with initially. I've seen older teenage girls prey on younger, more vulnerable ones, and I know this must be far more damaging that the social workers want to acknowledge. Decades ago my husband worked in a co-ed home, and it was much the same story. Raging hormones combined with emotional instability is not a healthy environment, and I'm not sure how even the best institutions can prevent this. Beyond the sexual problems are just the difficulties of being surrounded by only those who've experienced enough pain to have been removed from the familial setting. It is heartbreaking.

It sounds as if Sue may not have the deep seated psychological issues like schizophrenia, drug or sexual abuse that often lands kids in these institutions. Unless there's a lot more to the story, it sounds as if she's acting out because she has not been nurtured and has resolvable emotional conflicts brought about because of your DS's dysfunction. While it's nice to think ER will provide family counseling and solve the difficult dynamics, I don't have much faith that your DS will commit and do the inner work necessary to get her life on track, much less her kids. Even if DS does, and I hope she will, it will be at the expense of prolonged difficulties for her children. You may be able to save Sue, and even impact the younger sister once Sue is no longer the target. Perhaps the younger girl, who sounds far more potentially dangerous, will be able to go to ER and help resolve the family dynamics. This will make life easier for the other 3 children.

My heart goes out to you and hope that all will be blessed with the best possible outcome.

Ttod,

I haven't heard you say that your DS doesn't care, that the family life is bad. There isn't any abuse (drugs,physical, etc) occurring. Your DS is a follower, meaning she isn't that assertive and may question her parenting to the point where she is ineffective. If your DS didn't care, sue wouldn't have gotten any help.

Eagle Ranch may help your Ds as much as it helps sue. While Sue may not have the perfect home situation, it doesn't sound like the worst either. I think plucking her out of problems instead of teaching her how o work through problems may back fire.

Eagle Ranch may be the image of what she needs. Plus, she wouldn't be different from anyone else.

Of course her step father isn't going to treat his step kids like he does his biological kids. This is why DS needs some good skills and a backbone.

I would never turn my daughter over to her step father. Never in a million years. And he was wonderful too. I married Robert when Aimee was 13. We had a few rough spots but we *worked* through them. Our family became stronger for it.

I still see no reason not to encourage DS to work through the rough times. I think it may be more damaging to Sue to be sent to Auntie's because no one was willing to do what it took to resolve her problem. I say this because it is different. Being sent away reinforces the idea that sue is a problem child instead of a child having a problem. That is a big distinction though.

Families aren't perfect but we work through troubles. We don't usually send our kids away when they are having issues. Good families become better by dealing with issues instead of sending the issues packing.

Eagle Ranch may help the family work through the issues. Try not to magnify Sue's problems. She needs to believe her problems re not permanent. (It's a situation. LOL!)

Being sent away reinforces the idea that sue is a problem child instead of a child having a problem.

Isn't sending her to an institution sending her away also?

"Being sent away reinforces the idea that sue is a problem child instead of a child having a problem. That is a big distinction though.

Families aren't perfect but we work through troubles. We don't usually send our kids away when they are having issues. Good families become better by dealing with issues instead of sending the issues packing."

Couldn't agree more with golddust although we come to entirely different conclusions. Both perspectives have merit.

Families helping to resolve issues often include the extended family like you and your parents as you already know having been a source of solid support for years. Sending Sue to ER may exactly signal that she is the problem whereas extracting her from a problem situation may give her a chance to heal and restore her sense of well being. I still hope the second child will go to ER and your sister et al will benefit by learning better life skills.

While we all bring our experiences in offering varying angles for you to consider, only you can assess what is best for all.

If you read carefully about Eagle Ranch, it is very family centered. It will work with Sue's family as well as getting insight into Sue's needs, which in turn, is the needs of the whole family.

I have witnessed programs like Eagle Ranch do wonders for kids and families. Sue will feel validated, listened to and advocated for while the parents learn better skills. Families must participate in counseling and classes as well. Eagle Ranch will be no picnic for Mom and SD as they will be held accountable.

Sending Sue away to Eagle Ranch may not seem like the family is giving up because the program works with parents as part of their component. Sending her to Eagle Ranch for a short time because "our family needs extra guidance right now" could be a life changing move.

Sending Sue states away where Mom and Dad are out of the picture is a very different message.

I feel a little uneasy responding to this thread since I don't have children. However, I did move to be closer to my nieces and nephews during their formative years-- not because my siblings weren't doing a good job-- but because I think having a balance of influences makes a child a much wiser, stronger and educated adult. Our single most important responsibility as adults is to raise the next generation-- not just our own children, but the community of children.

12 is such an important turning point-- it's a fragile time of a girl's life. It's hard enough when you have a healthy, supportive family.. poor Sue has been set up for a lot more struggles and perhaps a severe and quick plummet into worse behaviors.

I can't tell you what to do, I would never presume to.. but if I had the ability, I would definitely do what I could to set Sue up for success not just in her teens but in her adulthood.

It's hard to be the oldest child of 5-- I was the oldest of 4. It has to be MUCH harder to be the oldest of 5 in a dysfunctional home with a newborn and a (possibly) sociopathic younger sister. It's the dynamic that breeds a whole long list of possible destructive paths for her life.

I have many of the same impressions that Parma mentioned about the ranch but my biggest concern is that the success of a program like that is dependent on the FAMILY and their total commitment. Your DS has a newborn, the step father is on the road much of the time and there is still the younger sister and her hidden/unknowledged issues. I fear those factors greatly reduce the chances of success. Sue is 12 yo.. if she is going to rise above her challenges and learn to respect herself and others, if she is going to embrace life and its opportunities, she needs change NOW. She needs an unconditionally loving, patient, understanding and supportive network NOW.

Are you the one to give it to her? Only you can say if you have the energy and resources to do so. Whatever you decide will be the right answer for you. You are a wise, compassionate and intuitive person, Tiffany. You will know what is right.

After readings these I've been very back and forth. I hope the whole family can get help it the areas needed. I'm also very concerned about Sue's younger sister. Kids hurting animals . . we all know that's not normal.

I keep typing things and deleting them. Can't find the words. You and your DH being willing to open your lives and home up to her speaks volumes about you both. A lot of food for thought and different angles are shared above. I know you'll make the right decision.

I spoke w/ my sister yesterday and asked if her if she really wanted me to give my honest opinions even if she may be upset at them and she said yes.

I floated the opportunity of having Sue come here w/ us for a month for a lifetime - whatever she wanted and needed. I told her that if she felt it would be good for Sue to please discuss it w/ the psychologist.

I really tried to press her more about other things as I just wanted to try and expand her thinking and options. Like I said, my sister is a follower where as I knock down doors asking questions looking for feedback and answers. My sister does not. I guess that's what big sisters are for. If the younger one can't do it we assist in clearing the path to help them walk it a little easier.

I really tried to drive home the 'Family Counseling' and how would they manage that? If BIL is on the road how will ER set up the family counseling to adapt to that? How will they individualize it for that because him not working isn't an option and working means being on the road. I tried to impress upon my sister that it's not just Sue's problem but that the family as a whole needs counseling as well as my sister and BIL in regards to better parenting alternatives as to what they currently do. I attempted to drive that point home to her that if they don't work as hard as Sue then nothing that they do will amount to a hill of beans. I let her know that mandatory family counseling w/ Sue was a great pro about ER and something that I could not offer them because I think that Sue has to be a participant. I also mentioned that even if Sue weren't a factor in this whole thing that I still thought they needed counseling as a whole.

I asked her if she just sat back and listened to what the psychologist said and if she asked questions. She said that she did ask questions but when she told me what the questions were they seemed to be on the 'follower' side of things. I asked her to think outside of the box and ask more probing questions. I told her to think of it as if she were diagnosed w/ a potentially deadly disease and what would she do. She said research and ask very pointed questions. She would want to know the Dr.s background, how often had they treated the deadly disease, how would they treat it and why specifically that way? What was the success rate w/ of recovery w/ the Dr.s pts.? Did the Dr. only ever refer pts. to 1 specific place and if so why? And so on. When I posed it to her that way a light bulb seemed to go on in her head. I told her not to be afraid and to try and find a chunk of quiet time to write her questions down and go back to the psychologist w/ them.

I pointedly asked if she ever thought about counseling for the 2nd daughter and she said 'No. Why does evryone think that she has a problem. She's fine w/ us." I told her to carefully think about that statement and ask herself why others have said that. I left it at that.

She cried and asked me to talk to BIL that he needs to hear what I've said and just talk w/ me. I asked her what point she would like to see come across if I spoke w/ him so that I could gather my wits about me.

DS has tried and always keeps trying to do the right thing for Sue, I just think that many times DS doesn't see what she's doing herself.

Funkyart - no need to feel uneasy - we all have perspectives and thoughts and come from varied backgrounds always giving a different viewpoint. I guess I am just of the being that we do what needs to be done, don't look back and take it day by day. Once we set a realistic goal ther is no quiting - we try every way possible to finish the task at hand. We try to raise our children that way. Ever since I was in the Marine Corps I always told myself "Only God can can stop the end of the day from coming" and it always made me feel that no matter how hard a task was that eventually I would see the other side - that a task could not go on forever, I just had to be strong. Nobody or nothing humanly possible could stop me.

I also feel uneasy responding to this because I don't have children. In my teens, I had quite a few friends with family problems. The best outcomes I saw came when the "problem teens" were resettled with family/friends who were able to pay a lot of attention to them.

The "best outcome" kids that I knew had accepted, by the time that they were 16 or so, that they could not rely on their parents for anything, and that their futures were up to them. They were WAY more mature than most other teens in their age groups--they signed themselves up for special schools so that they could recover lost time, got jobs, and found places to live so that they could finish high school.

Eagle Ranch, with its focus on family reunification, doesn't sound like it would help your niece get to this point. From what you've said about your sister, it doesn't sound like the family counseling would stick.

Sue sounds like a nice, but troubled, kid. Is it possible for you and your DH to meet with the counselors and review why they are recommending Eagle Ranch?

Please also take a realistic look at the education available at Eagle Ranch--one of my friends was doing two years of high school simultaneously because he didn't learn anything during the year his mother enrolled him in a strict religious school.

Eagle Ranch are probably used to family situations where it's difficult to get everyone at the same time for counseling ; they probably offer alternatives to cope with that. My point is that we can't rule out ER because of BIL being on the road, how DS is going to involve herself and stick with the program; these are unknowns, maybe a call to ER can alleviate certain fears you have.

I admire you for getting involved and supporting your DS in all of this.

Another reason to really examine the counselors' motives for recommending Eagle Ranch--

Pa. judges accused of jailing kids for cash
Judges allegedly took $2.6 million in payoffs to put juveniles in lockups

WILKES-BARRE, Pa. - For years, the juvenile court system in Wilkes-Barre operated like a conveyor belt: Youngsters were brought before judges without a lawyer, given hearings that lasted only a minute or two, and then sent off to juvenile prison for months for minor offenses.

The explanation, prosecutors say, was corruption on the bench.

In one of the most shocking cases of courtroom graft on record, two Pennsylvania judges have been charged with taking millions of dollars in kickbacks to send teenagers to two privately run youth detention centers.

(more available at the link)

Here is a link that might be useful: Pa. judges accused of jailing kids for cash

Jane - Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding! That's precisely why I wanted my sister to ask how many children the psychologist has referred to ER.

Haven't had a lot of time to come here.. I read your posts, not sure I'll have time to go back and read everyone else's..

The way I feel, I don't like ER. The reason.. does "Sue" believe/practice religion? IMO, there could be a thing as too much. I know someone that was sent away to something similar & it backfired, child totally rebelled.. ran away multiple times, eventually got pregnant. She was a few years older, but this was after her being in this type of setting for a few years, IIRC, starting about 13.

A few questions I would have - will you get support for her? I imagine her mom gets child support from the ex, will your sister forward the money to you? Next, what about health insurance? Who currently is covering her? I ask because if it's her birth father, how will you get medical information to have her treated? I have problems calling my ex's insurance even though I have custody. They've also gotten a court order from the judge as well as my ex signing something saying they can give me information about my daughter. I also do not get denials; so for any bill coming to my house I usually get screwed with.

Medications - some are not cheap. My daughters ADD med is currently about $200 per month. Add to this the Dr visit.

From what you have posted, if it was me I would open my door to the child; if that failed, then think about a group home. That is, if financials were worked out...

I went out and read about Eagle Ranch. It's website is very nice - but most are now days!

I was concerned that there is only room for 12 girls at the facility, and 36 boys - it seems to be more focused on troubled boys.

Also, there is a fee for this place - who's going to pay? It seems you could get some counseling for your niece at your home for the amount of money her parents will need to pay for Eagle Ranch.

I admit I'm biased against juvenile facilities for children - I have an 11 year old and cannot imagine sending him off to live in a community of troubled youth. I think that alone would be traumatic and scarring. If your niece was 15 or 16, and incorrigible and unmanageable, then perhaps a place like Eagle Ranch would be a place for her.

With only 12 girls, I'd want to know how old the majority of them are - a 12 year old hanging with older teens is not a very good idea in my book. Those girls may be into sex, drugs and things your niece hasn't been exposed to yet.

Obviously, your niece needs a change of venue to get a handle on whether her issues are family based or attention based or a true mental instability. I still vote for her to come and stay with you, do counseling and you'll be able to get to know your niece and her issues and will be able to help your sister decide if a residential home is best, staying with you is best or returning home is best.