Replacement of Central Air/ Heat Pump

14 years ago

I am considering replacing my 7 year old Lenox AC/Heat Pump system (5 ton) because of the $1500 rebate from the A/C Company and the $1500 Fed Tax Credit. The Company we use, which we have been happy with gave us this quote for our 2435 SQFT Home.

Carrier Comfort 15 Puron HP 5 Ton, seer 15.0 . The model numbers are :

A/H 59 X 3/16 X 24 11/16 X 22 1/16 HEATER MODEL KFCEH0501N05, 5.0/ 3.8 MODEL FV4BNB006T00 and COND 45 15/16 X 35 X 35 MODEL 25HCB561. Included is a Honeywell Vision Pro 8000 with Humidity Control. Also includes Air Quality options with Honeywell Model UV 100 RMI UV Light 24 Volt and F100 Media Air Filter 20 X 25 2000 CFM. Total Price including rebate but not Fed Tax Rebate is $8229. My question is, would this be a good replacement and is the price fair. Includes all installation, plus 10 years parts and service warranty. They tell me my yearly energy savings would be $387 or over 10 years $6168.. I think they are computing in estimated power cost increases. Thanks if you can help me.

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Comments (5)

baldloonie
14 years ago
Let's see, $387 x 10 = $3870. So they must be expecting a huge increase. I wouldn't! Who knows what they are doing. Our gas prices are lower than the past and electric the same. So buying equipment based on savings that probably won't happen doesn't make sense.

If you need 5 tons for 2400 sq ft, put some money into reducing the need for equipment!
jerroz
Original Author
14 years ago
Thanks for the response, I am not at all knowledgeable about A/C sizing but I assume you are saying if I need a 5 Ton system that I must have a lot of energy loss due to home construction, insulation or other factors. You make a good point about forecasting energy price changes but historically, power companies don't reduce cost of power. Thanks again.
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Before I started getting any new system quotes I would get an energy audit done. Your local utility might have someone or pay for a portion of it..some pay a large portion. I would make sure the house is shot from the inside and out with a thermal imaging camera while you are there to see it first hand. Have the registers both supply and return flow tested and compared with what the unit is supposed to be at and get a blower door test to see how much leakage you have. I would go on a caulking and foaming rampage any wire or pipe penetration into the subfloor I would caulk or foam and any in the attic same thing. Recessed lights are a big leakage point even IC rated can leak up to 50cfm each. I would get this done and then get the new unit and make sure they seal the ductwork at every seam and connection before putting insulation over it. I went back through your post..I would get quotes for a new system, both gas and all electric. I would post the results in here along with at least the state you live in and electric and gas rates. The people in here that really know hvac will need the model numbers of the units you received quotes on, outside unit, inside unit and coil. Some utilities will give you a credit or pay you to upgrade if you keep a heat pump. I have seen some go up to 1,000.00 for an air to air system depending on SEER. Quite a few will throw 300-500 at you just for upgrading.
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Rose, Did those prices include the rebates? They appear "reasonable" based on the equipment quoted, but the ductwork add-on cost is high in my opinion. I strongly recommend the duct replacement/improvement if it is 25 years old and in poor condition (i.e., not well sealed if at all, falling apart, etc.). For that price, I would hope it includes sheet metal plenums and trunklines, sealed with mastic and insulated with R8 fiberglass insulation along well properly done R8 flex duct branches to the registers. It makes little sense to me to invest big bucks on equipment and combine it with an inefficient and/or improperly sized duct system. I think your approach is right to get more estimates and see where they come in to get a proper feel for the pricing in your market -- it truly does vary by area. If they are actually considerably lower (and you'd have to wonder what corners they'd be cutting), it looks like the contractor you seem to prefer is willing to work with you. I am sure you have read enough to know that finding the right installer is very critical in having a reliable, well-performing system. It sounds like you have found a good one by what you describe. I take it he/she did a load calculation based on the information they gathered and verified 3 ton is the proper size? Lastly, Trane is the right way to go in my opinion especially in an environment such as yours where the air is highly corrosive over time to the units. I visit Ocean City, MD somewhat regularly and it is very evident which units hold up better over time and still seem to be working well: Trane. Also, some great questions to be answered as provided by TD above. There are lots of details that need to be included on the written estimate. The above is a good start. This post was edited by ryanhughes on Sun, May 12, 13 at 11:07
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Quote 1: Does not qualify for the tax credit, if that's what they're leading you to believe. Good outdoor unit, but it bothers me they are not including a variable speed air handler. Quote 2: This company may just have a lower overhead and overall lower prices. If your realtor has had good experience in the past, I wouldn't have a problem. But I would suggest stepping the outdoor unit up to the Amana line (subsidiary of Goodman), which is a more premium product to compare to the other units you've been quoted. In general I would avoid Goodman/Amana because I think there's better out there, but if it's what fits the space and qualifies for the tax credit, then it would be worth considering. The Carrier units that would qualify are huge physically outside. Quote 4: Sounds like they're oversizing the equipment--not a good thing. I would avoid. 800 sqft. in our area shouldn't require 2 tons, and if the old 1.5 ton did the job in the past, that's what I'd install. Also they are not informing you that if you register the units with Trane within 60 days of install, warranty should be 10 years on all parts. And yes, a humidifier should give an added sense of warmth to the air and hence allow you to set your thermostat lower.
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For any company, it will probably be their premium, maybe even commercial lines. In another current (minisplit) thread in this forum, there is a link to a site that has a Daikin catalog that you can download. In the olden days, a decade or so ago, it was not unheard of to install a "desuperheater" in residential air conditioning equipment. At that time, I believe that it would have been difficult to find a residential-only contractor with experience. I dare say it would have been unusual. Commercial and industrial contractors certainly did. Now, with increasingly complicated controls and sophisticated integration of different individual parts of a system, I don't know if it is possible to insert a water-heating element and controls into a unified residential system. Others here might have experience. If not, there are other forums that have a lot of pros offering advice to individuals, but don't let unvetted pros or amateurs post. Good luck
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baldloonie
14 years ago
The proper way to size equipment is do a Manual J heat gain/loss calculation. Measure house, walls, windows, doors, factor in sun/shade, roof color, anything that affects heat coming & going. That will tell you what size you need. Not basing it on what you have or sq ft. But looking at sq ft, seems like a lot unless you are in a very hot climate (TX, south FL, AZ) or have way above average in windows. Our area we size to 95Â° out and 2400 sq ft home TYPICALLY would have a 3 ton max. But only a load calc will tell.

What's the model #s of the Lennox? How efficient is it?
tigerdunes
14 years ago
jerroz

I agree with Baldloonie's suggestion of getting a load calculation.

You might see how close you are to needing a four ton system and upgrade your home's building envelope/insulation qualities.

I would also recommend the two stg Comfort 16 system-either 4 ton or 5 ton. Same is available from a Bryant dealer.

IMO
jerroz
Original Author
14 years ago
Thanks Baldloonie and Tigerdunes for your responses. I live in the Orlando area of Central Florida and it does get hot here. From June thru September rarely a day under 90. The Model number of my Lennox is 12HPB6010P. As far as efficiency, I don't know what to compare it to. My electric bill is about $150 more per month in the summer months. i.e. $150 Winter, $300 Summer. The builder determined the original size of the HVAC system but I don't know how they did it. Doing a Manual J heat/gain loss calculation is beyond my capabilities. I don't even know what the difference in a 3 4 or 5 TON system is. After what I have learned by reading posts and the responses on this forum, I am realizing this is a complex subject. I hate to be hostage to what the salesman tells me and the way he states it I have no other alternative than what he recommends and still be able to get the Fed Tax Credit. The one alternative I have is to keep what I have. I still have 3 years left on the Parts and Service Warranty so that is a plus. Anyway, thanks again for all the help.

Replacement of Central Air/ Heat Pump

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Replacement of Central Air/ Heat Pump

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