GPW:

A little background info.

A 13 to 15 SEER heat pump uses one single-stage compressor (as do most heat pumps and central a/c units in use today). A 16 SEER system uses one dual stage compressor, and a 19 SEER system uses a dual compressor set-up. The dual-stage and dual compressor systems are sold on the idea of improving comfort becuase they can run on low speed if needed and not cycle on/off as much. This, of course, is at a much higher purchase price to the homeowner. For the majority of homeowners, an ordinary single stage heat pump works just fine.

With that in mind, in my opinion, a heat pump with 14 or 15 SEER / 12 EER / 9 HSPF provides the best combination of purchase price and true operating costs. With the right air handler, some 13 SEER heat pumps can achieve 14 SEER, and some 14 SEER heat pumps can achieve 15 SEER.

You also want the heat pump to provide its rated btus in cooling and heating. The 3 ton system should provide 36,000 btus. Some system combinations are weak on btus and a 3 ton may only provide 32,000 btus.

The Trane XL15i has fantastic performance numbers, so does the Carrier Performance series. These units should be half of the price of XP19 quoted to you. FYI, Trane/American Standard are the same, so is Carrier/Bryant.

Make sure that the model numbers of the condenser (outside unit) and air handler are written on the quote. Get more quotes. Post the model numbers and we will provide performance info.

Whether or not to get a fancy air purification system is up to you. In most cases, a 4" media filter cabinet or 1" pleated filter do just fine.

Best to you.

gpw

First of all, the price on the Lennox XP19 is absurd. Throw it overboard. I am going to assume that a three ton is correct size. This is the size you are replacing?

Here are my thoughts on HP systems as well as minimum performance metrics.

15 SEER, 12 EER, 9 HSPF
matching variable speed air handler
full BTUs in cooling and heating for the rated size
scroll compressor
electronic demand defrost preferred over timed defrost
thermostat/controller that handles blower speed for superior dehumidification

On air cleaner cabinets, I think simple is better. A good 4-5" media cabinet Merv 10 min is more than adequate for most homes. If you go with the EAC(electronic air cleaner), you should know homeowner responsibility as far as maintenance/cleaning, ozone output, power consumption, cost of any filter replacement.

Rarely is there a perfect system-there are always tradeoffs. I personally prefer Trane HPs but with some models/configurations, their BTU output in heating is not acceptable and their stats are poor. Carrier at the moment has the best overall HP systems with the Infinity controller.

I am listing below seven matched systems-both two stg and single stg systems.

This tells you the model, brand, HP model number, air handler model number, BTUs cooling, EER, SEER, BTU heating @ 47 deg,HSPF eff,BTU heating@ 17 deg.

At the start, I have to say I am not a Lennox fan-sorry, my prejudice. I would recommend the Infinity 16 two stg system or if you want to save some change the sgl stg Performance 15 with Infinity controller and the Trane XL15i system with Honeywell VP IAQ stat.

551503 Active OEM XP19 SERIES LENNOX INDUSTRIES, INC. XP19-036-230* CBX32MV-048-230* 36000 12.70 18.60 32200 9.30 19500 (two stg)

1030413 Active OEM XP16 SERIES LENNOX INDUSTRIES, INC. XP16-036-230* CBX32MV-048*+TDR 37400 12.20 16.70 33400 8.50 20000 (two stg)

1292429 Active OEM XP14 SERIES LENNOX INDUSTRIES, INC. XP14-036-230* CBX32MV-048*+TDR 35800 13.00 15.00 35200 8.75 21200

1106628 Active OEM XL16I WEATHERTRON TRANE 4TWX6036B1 4TEE3F40B1 36800 12.30 17.00 33200 9.20 22200
(two stg)

1384033 Active OEM XL15I WEATHERTRON TRANE 4TWX5036A1 4TEE3F48A1 36000 12.50 15.00 36000 9.00 23000

1250404 Active OEM INFINITY 16 PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HNA636A30 FE4ANB006+UI 35800 12.60 16.50 34200 9.00 19100 (two stg)

1125687 Active OEM PERFORMANCE 15 PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HPA536H30 FE4AN(B,F)005+UI 36000 13.00 15.50 36000 9.00 21800

numbers provided from the CEE HVAC directory

Let me know if you have any questions.

IMO

Good job, TD.

"1384033 Active OEM XL15I WEATHERTRON TRANE 4TWX5036A1 4TEE3F48A1 36000 12.50 15.00 36000 9.00 23000"

Translation: American Refrigeration Insitute (ARI)# 1384033 - an approved match for a Trane XL15i. 36,000 btu cooling, 12.5 EER, 15 SEER, 36,000 btu heating at 47F, 9 HSPF, 23,000 btu heating at 17F. These are outstanding numbers.

"1125687 Active OEM PERFORMANCE 15 PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HPA536H30 FE4AN(B,F)005+UI 36000 13.00 15.50 36000 9.00 21800"

- This Carrier Performance 15 also has outstanding numbers that are very similar to the Trane XL15i.

I agree, but I'd go with the 4TEE3F40B1 should you go with the 4TWX5036A1.

The XP19 has a single scroll compressor setup. I've heard it's a great unit, but 14k+ is absurd for a replacement. I would expect a price of around 8-10k for that type of system.

Keep getting quotes. Make sure companies do a load calculation to determine sizing--any other way and they aren't truly concerned that you get the right size!

garyg, tigerdunes, and ryanhughes: can't tell you how much I appreciate the feedback. And tigerdunes - that list you gave was exactly what I was hoping for. I feel like my head is spinning and at this point just want someone knowledgeable and unbiased to make an educated decision for me - or at least narrow my choices! I'll get to work on absorbing the info you all provided. Again, thank you so much. Oh, and yes, your 3 ton assumption was correct.

Given where you live, buying a 19 SEER unit isn't likely to pay off. The heating/cooling load for Portland is probably low enough that you'll never make back in operating savings what you'll pay in up-front costs. Run some numbers to see.

And don't assume that 3 tons is the correct size. Recent studies are showing that most systems are oversized. For one thing, not all contractors do a load calculation. Then, some of those that do one don't do it right. And finally, even if the load calc is done by the book (ACCA Manual J), the system's still likely to be oversized because the manual is too conservative.

another option. are you handy? i put in a new 14 seer 3.5 ton, variable speed, 15kw, heat pump. cost $2600 and 2 days labor.
coat breakdown:
heat pump and ah $1850
new lineset $300
shipping $200
labor for licensed heat pump tech to weld lines and charge unit $250
total $2600

tom2112 - thanks for your response. I'll make sure the next bids I get include load calculations. How do I know if they're accurate?

vhehn - I like to think I'm handy but since I can't even seem to choose one, I think I'd best stay away from installation!
That's great that you were able to save so much money - I'd love to be in that position.

You'll want a Manual J load calculation done to determine sizing. This includes looking at windows (and their position), walls (including insulation), square footage, ceiling height, etc. This can be done on paper or on a computer.

Thanks ryan. I have a guy coming out tomorrow that sells Carrier. In your opinion if he doesn't do a load calculation does that mean he's incompetent?

gpw

There are three reasons for a rep from an HVAC dealer not performing a Man J load calculation as well as inspecting your ductwork when requested.

1.they are lazy
2.they don't know how, just plain incompetence
3.they don't give a xxxx about their customer

Yes, it takes one to two hours to properly perform a Man J depending on size of home. The true pros bring their laptop and crunch the numbers into the software program and provide a copy in writing to the homeowner.

Also, if you have any hot/cold spots in your home, now is the time to point these out and get recommendations on corrective action.

IMO

Well, the first Carrier bid came out today. They want $11,250 for a 3 ton 19 seer Infinity heat pump (25HNA936A003), Infinity fan coil (FE4ANF005), Infinity controller, MERV 10 media filter, and all the rest of the other stuff. They quoted $10,581 the Performance 15 (25HPA536H003), Performance Variable Speed blower (FV4BNF005000), Carrier stat, MERV 10 filter etc.

TD - I asked for a quote on one of the exact set-ups you suggested (25HPA536H30 with FE4AN(B,F)005+UI and Infinity controller) and it was only $150 less than the Performance 15 quote he gave me.

The company has a great reputation - 60 yrs. in business - a preferred Carrier dealer - and he says they typically only make about $500 on a job. How is this possible when I've seen such discrepancy between quotes on here that are so much lower?

These prices don't seem good to me. That price on the 19 already includes the rebate from Carrier. That also doesn't factor in our tax which will be almost another $1000.

How do people afford this stuff?!

And by the way, he did not do a load calculation. He walked around the house, looked at the current system, looked at my electrical panel and said he thought a 3 ton was the right size. Could he determine that through sheer experience? He said he's been doing this for 25 years.

Get more quotes. Prices are way too high.

You don't need the Infinity control or a 19 SEER in Oregon. You need a basic 14 SEER / 12 EER / 9 HSPF heat pump system. Should be half of the $$ you are being quoted if there is no major ductwork involved.

Get a quote from a Bryant dealer. Carrier aand Bryant are the same.

Good luck.

To compare your pricing to mine:

May 07 quote in Baltimore, MD:
3 ton Trane XL14i 410A heat pump. Condenser model# 4TWX4036, Air Handler model# 4TEE3F37, condenser mounting pad, 15kw heat strips. All labor and misc materials: $5400. Includes 2 year labor warranty and 10 year parts warranty.

Your pricing for a similar system should be comparable to the above.

Take care.

gpw

The Carrier Performance quote is not only ridiculous but does not even include the Infinity air handler and controller. Keep looking for a better deal.

And I agree with everything that Gary has said. While pricing varies from areas/markets, I would expect that the Portland area has decent competition. Just my idea but you should be getting prices in the neighborhood of 6.5K to 7.5K tops for the Performance 15 system and Trane XL15i system that I suggested. Don't give up or get discouraged.

The sister companies of both Carrier and Trane-Bryant and AmStd have the same equipment and will probably offer better pricing.

IMO

GPW:

Here is a recent post with a quote for a Carrier Performance heat pump:

Heat Pump Decisions
Posted by mastergunnera8 (My Page) on Sat, Mar 1, 08 at 9:49

Been researching for a bit and found two good installers that I feel good about. Choices and prices:
Carrier Performance 15:

15 Seer Performance Series with Performance Series Variable air handler
new digital standard stat
electric heat pack
Carrier humidifier large fan powered
Total install with humidifier $5935.00

This is the price that you should be looking for.

Good luck.

gary and TD - thanks for being supportive - the prices you mentioned are a lot more doable. Now if I can just find someone offering them! I have another bid tomorrow and again on Thursday.

Do you happen to have ARI numbers for the Infinity 19 just to compare? Also, what model numbers would I want for a Bryant system? Do you buy the theory I keep hearing about "Well you might as well get the Infinity system because the rebate right now makes it comparable to the Performance system."

Have I mentioned how grateful I am for your help? Thank you!

If you are talking about the tax credit you have to take that into account but I would suggest that you also factor in the percieved competence of the company you are dealing with if you focus tatally on price you are likely to have a bad experience

Here is a link that might be useful: Air Conditioning and Heating Repair Made Easy

"Do you happen to have ARI numbers for the Infinity 19 just to compare?"

Infinity 19 Puron, 3 ton. 25HNA936A30 heat pump condenser, FE4ANB006 air handler.
36,000 btu cooling, 13.5 EER, 18.2 SEER, 36,000 btu heating at 47F, 9 HSPF, 21,000 btu heating at 17F. ARI# 1076976.

"Do you buy the theory I keep hearing about "Well you might as well get the Infinity system because the rebate right now makes it comparable to the Performance system.""
- Their pricing on the Performance Series is way too high which is the reason why the 2 systems are close in price.

Keep up the good work.

Here is a link that might be useful: ARI Directory

Well, here are the latest numbers:

25HPA536 Carrier Performance 15 heat pump
FE4ANF003 Infinity fan coil, 15KW heat strip
Infinity controller
misc. normal addt'l
$9950.

Still high and I'm running out of reputable companies . . .ARRGH. I guess I still have Bryant and Trane to check though. I was just hoping to find a reasonable Carrier and be done with it.

TD - would you mind giving me the comparable model #'s for Bryant? Also, on the bid I referenced above he quoted the 003 vs. the 005 you suggested. I'm sure you had reasoning for your suggestion. Would you explain please?

Oh, and ryan - call me stupid but I can't figure out the ARI directory.

gpw

here is the comparable Bryant model to the Carrier Performance 15 HP model. It is called the Preferred 15 HP model and includes the Evolution air handler and Evolution controller(same as Infinity).

these are the numbers on three configurations. hope this is helpful.

1125686 Active Systems PREFERRED 15 PURON HP BRYANT HEATING AND COOLING SYSTEMS 265ANH036-A FE4AN(B,F)003+UI 35400 12.50 15.00 35800 8.60 21600 1 HRCU-A-CB 202 560

1125688 Active Systems PREFERRED 15 PURON HP BRYANT HEATING AND COOLING SYSTEMS 265ANH036-A FE4AN(B,F)005+UI 36000 13.00 15.50 36000 9.00 21800 1 HRCU-A-CB 199 535

1125690 Active Systems PREFERRED 15 PURON HP BRYANT HEATING AND COOLING SYSTEMS 265ANH036-A FE4ANB006+UI 36000 13.00 16.00 36000 9.30 21800 1

td

All of the Bryant systems that TD has quoted have outstanding performance numbers.

As TD's data exemplifies, the larger air handler (*005 or *006 for this case) gives you more efficiency/capacity for Bryant/Carrier. I'd personally choose the *005 air handler as I believe it is nearly identical in size to the *003. Good luck!!

Oops - I meant to tell gary that I couldn't figure out the ARI directory.

TD - thank you so much for the Bryant numbers

I received an email from one of the companies saying that he had been in a class yesterday about Carrier's new Performance stat called the Edge. He said it was very impressive and therefore quoted me on:

3 ton performance heat pump 25HPA536H
performance fan coil FV4ANF005
performance edge stat and outdoor sensor
9 kw auxiliary heat
10 parts and labor warranty
$8056.00

If I want to still have the infinity fan coil and stat I'd have to add $504. It would be an addt'l $300 for a media filter series P102-MF. An additional $1200 for the Inifinity Air Purifier.

So the lowest bid so far but still expensive.

Soooooo here is a completely different scenario I'll throw out there. The instigating factor in all this was our yearly maintenance that showed the coil needs to be cleaned so it doesn't freeze up the system. They also have said each year they come out that they can't believe the thing is still working because of it's age (23 years). Would it be unwise to just pay the money to have the coil cleaned and just run the current system til it quits? I usually perfer to be proactive, but the thought of NOT having to kick out $9000+ right now sure sits well.

gpw

it would be difficult for me to spend any dollars on a 23 yr old system that I know will have to be replaced most likely sooner rather than later. Keep in mind it is unlikely for you to get decent pricing on a breakdown situation as opposed to a working system. The best time to purchase is in the spring or fall in my area.

Here are the numbers on the above Performance system-not an exact match as I did not see your air handler model number. Perhaps I overlooked it. Good numbers though.

I have only heard about the Edge and while I did read the online info, it appears to be very long on design-not certain about its features. A question for the dealer? How does "The Edge" control humidity and dehumidification?

1169031 Active Systems PERFORMANCE 15 PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HPA536H30 FV4BN(B,F)005 36000 13.00 15.50 36000 9.00 21800

I did give you my opinion on air cleaner/quality cabinets in an earlier post.

I have to admit that I still like the Infinity air handler and controller but it's not my money, it's yours.

IMO

I VERY strongly urge you to go to this site and ask about the EDGE humidistat/thermostat. There are a bunch of Carrier techs that hang out there are very willing to answer brand specific questions. You can't post $$'s ..but anything beyond that is ok.

I have Performance with EDGE and am happy. Living in the DEEP South.

http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/index.php

Okay.. We had a company come out to estimate the replacement of two ac units (one upstairs and one downstairs). The quote was $21,517.00. The recommendation was for was for two Lennox XP 14 3T / 4T and two CBX32MV air handlers. We were shocked! In researching on the Lennox web site we found out that the XP 14 is also a heat pump. We never asked for a heat pump nor did the rep from the company tell us it was a heat pump. All we needed was a basic ac unit! We are in sticker shock to say the least. Not sure of the size systems (but believe it is a 3 ton) we currently have but one of the air handlers is a Lennox E16Q3-10-1P and the compressor is model number HS18-311-7P. Do you have to replace the air handlers when replacing the compressors? We live in Wilmington Delaware. What should we be looking at for a reasonable replacement price?
We do not run the system all the time in the summer, just when it is extremely hot.

Okay.. We had a company come out to estimate the replacement of two ac units (one upstairs and one downstairs). The quote was $21,517.00. The recommendation was for was for two Lennox XP 14 3T / 4T and two CBX32MV air handlers. We were shocked! In researching on the Lennox web site we found out that the XP 14 is also a heat pump. We never asked for a heat pump nor did the rep from the company tell us it was a heat pump. All we needed was a basic ac unit! We are in sticker shock to say the least. Not sure of the size systems (but believe it is a 3 ton) we currently have but one of the air handlers is a Lennox E16Q3-10-1P and the compressor is model number HS18-311-7P. Do you have to replace the air handlers when replacing the compressors? We live in Wilmington Delaware. What should we be looking at for a reasonable replacement price?
We do not run the system all the time in the summer, just when it is extremely hot.