Hydronic Floor Heating and Air Conditioning

17 years ago

Hello,

I need some advice. I am doing a remodel of my ranch style home. The floors are going to be torn out and replaced with mainly wood floors throughout. The bathrooms will have stone floors. I was considering replacing my current HVAC heat with heated floors (hydronic heating). I am confused about what components I would need to make this happen. I also need a new water heater and the duct work would need to be replaced because the house is poorly heated and cooled now. The floors would have to be heated in the winter since I am on the East coast. The house is about 1700sq.ft.

Can someone explain how they would design a system like this? What type of boilers do you recommend? There is a crawl space but no basement. The mechanicals of the home are in the living space.

Thanks for you help in advance!

Homepro01

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Comments (5)

bob_brown
17 years ago
Hello,
While this is a subject near and dear to me, it is not appropiate that I comment on your project. This is a complicated and very expensive project. Decide what type of fuel you wish to use, How much money is in the budget, then go to multiple companies for estimates. I personally believe that radiant floor heat is probably the best way to heat a home. When you heat with Radiant, you have 2 seperate systems. One for heat and one for cooling. IMO, this is the wave of the future. I would also consider Solar hot water. When designing a radiant floor, the additional cost of hot water saves a lot of utility bills during the warm part of the year.

In my climate area, I cannot justify solar hot water, with any reasonable payback, before replacing the system. When coupled with radiant floor, It pays back the entire system within 10 years. In my case where I would do a significant part of the work, it would payback within 7 years. Kinda neat.
RCMJr
17 years ago
.

You could do a system that puts plates etc on top of subfloor . . . or staple up underneath. In EITHER case you'll need to insulate WELL underneath. Suggest Reflectix and rigid foam ( NOT the styrofoam crap ) as insulation. I found stuff at the local chain place that had R-7.2 per inch . . . foil faced and a good vapor barrier too.

As far a "boilers" go . . . I'd recommend one of the newer / high efficiency ones . . . I bought a Munckin 80M . . love it . . . VERY efficient / tiny / silent. There are others out there as well. These can also be plumbed / set up so that they do domestic water heating as well. Good idea; since a "boiler" should not sit unused all summer long. This is a modulating / condensing type unit.

Radiant heat IS the best . . . but often expensive . . mostly due to a fair amount of labor involved . . . but in my opinion WELL worth it if done right.

Bob
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A small electric boiler will provide all the water radiant heat you need. It's instant heat and does not maintain a temperature, which means it only heats when there is a call for heat. They are common in the West and Northwest.
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Quote #1 does not include increasing the size of the ductwork which needs to be done because you are replacing a 2 ton with a 3 or 4 ton (depending on the quote) and a 1.5 ton with a 3 or 3.5 ton. Quote #2 also includes zoning equipment/controls. There is a VERY large discrepancy in size of existing units vs. proposed units(both quotes) Did any of these contractors do a heat loss calculation? You should ask to see a manual J, which will determine the proper size system for the home. I understand the size needs to be increased due to the additions to the home, but what is the proper size? I would not sign any contract without a heat loss calculation first. That is the basics. Post back and we can continue this. Or email me @ woody22478@yahoo.com. I can forward you info and links to help explain better.
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I guess you are out in the boonies with no nat gas. I can't help with equipment. It is a relatively low volume kind of demand for equipment, I'm sure. You may be forced into the industrial/commercial area and if you are not big enough, you may be out of luck. Assuming that you can get a suitably sized unit, if your hydronic system is designed to deliver heat with a low enough water temperature, it can probably be done efficiently. What is the water temperature currently set to? Try heatinghelp.com and terrylove.com. I've seen some good hydronic heat/boiler threads in both places. If you have to stick with an electric boiler, you might look at the installation of a large storage tank and going to day/night rates. You'd have to run some numbers to see if it will work for you.
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Do you need ROOM heat or do you want "warm toes"? If you need to heat the entire house using in-floor radiant heat (I'm assuming you are going with hydronic?) then the best option is always concrete, tile or stone. They offer the least resistance which means the most amount of heat pours through them and into the house. If you want warm feet (because the rest of the house is being heated by a fully operational forced air or baseboard heat system) then you can have engineered hardwood as a lovely option. There are SOME engineered hardwood floors that allow it being used over hydronic in-floor radiant heat....but do NOT count on it being "OK" with every engineered product you look at. And if you go with hardwood, you do NOT want to used underlayment or soft underpad with the heating system. The underpad will block quite a bit of the heat, creating excess load on your heat system (in essence you are heating the pad under the floor while the room remains chilly). Carpet is an amazing product when used with in-floor radiant heat. Carpet breathes nicely. And the underpad is the thing that has to have the "hydronic heating" allowance which means you can choose the pad that is best suited for your situation. The other thing to be aware of with wood and in-floor radiant heat: low humidity. In-floor radiant heat is KNOWN to dry out wood flooring products. Because the wood is SOOOO close to the elements, the first thing that heats up (and dries out) is the wood. To combat this issue, you MUST add in humidity control in the home. That means you will need a system (separate from the heating system) that has the ability to add/subtract humidity throughout the year. In Montana the outdoor humidity is often very low to begin with. If you then decrease it even more with a dry heat, then the interior humidity levels can be extremely low. And wood does NOT like that. A wood floor requires humidity to "sit" around about 45% all year round. Please check your building specifications to find out HOW you are going to add that humidity to your home. And then find out if you have the ability to change the humidity levels with the touch of a button (humidistat). This usually involves a system with heating/cooling ducts so that moisture can be added to the air in an even way... For right now, I would assume you HAVE to go with tile/stone/concrete until you find out the HVAC humidity control system that is currently in place for your build.
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brickeyee
17 years ago
"...house is poorly heated and cooled now."

You cannot cool using hydronic in a slab.
Are you sure you want to have either A. No A/C, or B. A seperate air handler for A/C?
homepro01
Original Author
17 years ago

Bob,
Thanks for the feedback. The flooring in my home is going to be replaced as part of the remodel. I am really trying to decide what is the best option for me. I have a budget of $25k for all the mechanical systems for the house (heating, cooling, water heater, etc).

Rcmjr,
Can you recommend the name of a vendor for the heating plates? I would like to research this method further. The crawl space is currently insulated but that can also be shored up. Do you mind sharing how much you paid for the Munchkin system? Since this unit is going to be in the living space, I really want a quiet unit. I would like to use the same system for the hot water.

Brickeyee,
I think the concensus seems to be that I will need a separate air handler for the AC unit. Nothing prevents me from keeping the current ac unit except that it is old. The duct work has to be fixed. The architect is working on that with the mechanical engineer. I find that when I am knowledgable about a topic, I get the best information from everyone.

I will be contacting a local Hydronic heating vendor and installer in the DC area to discuss some of the options. I just wanted to know what I was in for.

Thanks for all your help so far!
Homepro01
jamesbodell
17 years ago
To save money, re-do your duct work and keep the existing AC. You can replace it later.

As for Radiant, I did a staple up in my ranch, and placed 1 1/2 inch foil faced foam boards underneath. I did not want to lift the current floors. It works OK, but If I were doing it again and pulling the floors, I would be more apt to a use a system that layers above the sub floor and under the finshed floor. Wirsbo makes a product like that. It has an aluminum backing too. Not sure if you can take the 5/8 to 3/4 hit in the ceiling height, however. In the bathroom, I would definitley use a sandwich layer, I did it in another house and absolutley love it. Floors are nice and warm. I warmed the shower floor and a bench too.

Are you using engineered wood or hardwood?

As for the crawlspace, is it a poured or dirt floor? Do water piped run through it. Handling the crawlspace is a whole other conversation.

You need to do a heat loss study, than determine the pipe size and pump speed to keep the place warm.

I just installed a system 2000 gas unit in my 1500sq-ft ranch with 1 radiant zone and one baseboard loop. It cost about 6k Installed (with indirect 40 gallon water heater)

My next project will be an addition on a slab, with radiant in the slab.

Hydronic Floor Heating and Air Conditioning

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bob_brown

RCMJr

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bob_brown

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