SR: I am so so very sorry! The poor sweet soul!

You will have a hard decision to make -- but I know that your heart will guide to a loving answer.

((hugs))

Jan

Thanks, Teacats.....I just saw about your Pepper & I am so sorry about your baby. Lots of love in those 18 years, I'm sure:) Gosh, this getting old stuff really sucks!! Who ever said all that come grow old with me was full of BS!! -

Scoob

Scooby, I don't have any words of wisdom to offer, but just wanted to tell you how very sorry I am. It's heartbreaking to watch our furbabies suffer. Hopefully someone here will have some good advice for you.

Oh, we have a big boy too. Lab/Rot/Chessie/pony mix. He's 120 pounds. They have the kindest hearts. I am so sorry.

I agree with teacats. If you have the finances to treat him, then your head, heart and vet needs to guide you. What are the odds for successful treatment? I vote for the least amount of pain possible.

Another big (((hug))) for both you and your first child.

Being the "mom" to a young golden boy and having lost a beautiful golden girl many years ago to bone cancer, I send you hugs during this difficult time. Unfortunately, I can't offer you any words of wisdom about treatment because our girl had bone cancer at a time when they were just discovering this form of cancer and the only option we were given was amputation. Since she was older, we decided against amputation. After her diagnosis, she lived to give us another 8 months of joy.

First I will start with sending you a ((((hug)))). I know this is heartbreaking, I have a 14 year old Lab/Beagle mix who is slowing down herself.

This may be tough to hear, but I think at this point I would prepare for saying goodbye. I had a bone tumor in my knee 14 years ago, the pain was excruciating, and the surgery recovery even worse. I'm sure this is a tough decision, but I'll second the vote for as little pain as possible.

oh, Scooby, that's so sad to hear. There is no sign of any occurrence in his lungs yet? Can he be scanned for other areas as well, like liver? Dogs seem to adapt so well to losing a leg, but I don't know firsthand or what the recovery is like. Chemo for animals is, so 'we' say, not so bad for animals. In cats, I've been told it's usually just for remission rather than cure.

It's so hard to know what to do. There must be a forum somewhere with just these same health issues to deal with.

You two will be in my thoughts. : (

Pony mix is about right!! I have always said they need to have a few rooms ready at the psych ward for us - esp my DS - almost every story that child has ever written mentions Sam Dog.

I am sure there is a forum out there.....I can tend to get kinda obsessive about things - don't want to get that involved with other peoples dogs right now, just mine (selfish, isn't it!) This is the only forum I go to - feel like I know some of you here & trust ya & thought maybe some of you faced this.

Awful to say, but I tell him if he is in pain, that he doesn't have to stay here for us. All he does is sleep.

Vet said it may or may not show in the lungs on x-ray- it is micro sized. When she mentioned the lungs, it made sense, thou. I had noticed him breathing much harder when my other 2 dogs were not.

Thanks alot......I know alot of us are animal lovers on here.

I am not sure if I can deal with the amputation - but I don't want him to be in pain!

On a side note.....wouldn't you love to go off the grid?? live like our ancestors lived? Do you think there is some correlation between all the hormones/ steroids/pesticides in our food and cancer? Or are we living longer and getting cancer where our ancestors didn't live long enough to get cancer?

Scooby, we don't have a dog, just a cat and a new one at that.

The advice to find people with the same breed and ask for help, seems like a good idea. Don't let guilt stand in the way of an good decision if his pain will be too great.

I'm so sorry to hear this.

I just meant for research. To hear about the disease, see the options, and read what the dogs are going through with and without them. I know how scarey and confusing it is. It's hard to get straight talk from the vets.

All the best for you and your guy.

Scooby - Labs have a similar lifespan to Goldens and your boy is up there in age. This is obviously a personal decision only you can make, but I'll go out on a limb and say what I, bottom line, ask myself when my own senior dogs are facing invasive treatment. Am I doing it for the dog or doing it for me and what are the chances of a cure?

Actually, I believe we're always doing it for us because I think our dogs live totally in the moment. But when my dogs are younger or facing a treatment that is not invasive or virtually guaranteed to cure them, I will always treat them. However, once they're seniors and I know they've had a good and long life, I try and disregard my urge to keep them with me no matter what.

I've seen younger dogs go through an amputation and do just fine, but only when the cancer was limited to the leg. I have a friend in a similar situation as you, who did the surgery and her 12-year-old girl died within a few months. It was very, very hard on the dog.

If he were mine, I'd keep him as comfortable as possible and treasure the time we have together. I know others won't agree with me, but after years of seeing friends let dogs go on suffering too long because they can't let go, I've promised myself to never go there myself.

Boy goldgirl, I am glad you got here before I did. :-) That is tough love, but love, just the same. And I agree with you wholeheartedly. Not because I've been there (my TT boy is still just an unruly teenager), but I have watched friends hang on way too long. I don't even think it is good for the humans because often there is guilt later when they realize they asked too much from their furbabies.

Scooby, I have tears in my eyes and a lump in my throat for you. What a terribly sad thing to have to face. As I said to teacats, it is a cruel twist of fate that we have to make these decisions for our four-legged babies. I send you hugs and wish you peace in whatever path you choose for your family.

Scooby, many hugs to you and your sweet Sam Dog . . . We faced that with our own Sam Dog -- a 13 year old Golden -- not cancer, but something that couldn't be fixed. I basically did what Goldgirl said -- loved him to pieces, babied him unmercifully, spent as much time as possible with him, and then sent him on with all my love. I might have kept him another week or month, but my first Golden had much the same condition and I let it go too long, and she suffered at the end. I didn't want that to happen again. Heartbreaking -- dogs just don't live long enough.

Scooby -
I have tears running down my face right now. I'm so very sorry. I can't imagine facing that decision. I do agree with goldgirl that many times we are making those decisions for us, because we cannot bear to lose our furbabies. I think both Goldgirl and hosta gave some very good advice. You don't want Sam to suffer. And hosta, how true, our babies just don't live long enough. I'm sorry Scooby - I know either way is heartbreaking for you.

Do you have a veterinary school/hospital near you? We do and I know there are treatments there not always available through vets in smaller areas. You might consider taking Sam there for an exam and second opinion.

I'm going now to love on *the pup*. Keeping you in my thoughts (and your family).

tina

"If he were mine, I'd keep him as comfortable as possible and treasure the time we have together. I know others won't agree with me, but after years of seeing friends let dogs go on suffering too long because they can't let go, I've promised myself to never go there myself."

Oh, my...I'm sending you warm (((hugs))) and comforting thoughts. We had a Bassett who had cancer. He left us almost 7 years ago. The last month of his life must have been very difficult for him. Somehow I knew he was in pain and I encouraged my DH to let him go, but he just couldn't. He regrets that decision to this day and will never go down that road again.

I agree with goldgirl and others. You'll know when it's time to let go...he will tell you in his own way. I know you will heed the signs. He will thank you and love you for it. I am so sorry for what you're going through.

Scooby - I didn't mean to come off as tough-love and I'm sorry for that. I just feel very, very strongly about this particular issue.

I had to put down my 14-year-old girl in April and it was one of the hardest decision I've ever made. She had a brain tumor and a prognosis of another month or two at most. She was still getting around and eating ravenously, but each morning DH and I would get up and ask if that was the day. One morning she looked at me and drooled - something she had never done in her entire life. We put her down that day because I felt that she told me it was time.

I know she would have lived longer but we knew that eventually she'd have a seizure and not be able to move. I did not want her to get to that point. I still second guess it but feel that if we erred on too early, that's better than too late. I'm sitting here crying just thinking about it. She was my once-in-a-lifetime dog.

I feel that every dog I've had was with me for the exact amount of time they were destined - as long as it takes them to teach us whatever we're supposed to learn.

Anyway, I'm so sorry that you have to go through this. Please realized that my opinion is just that, an opinion. I think Tina was right-on about getting a second opinion, as well.

I am so sorry. Osteo is a horrible diagnosis, and my heart is with you at this difficult time.

Your choices are:

1: Amputuation and chemo ASAP. Many tripods do well, but before you make that decision, have your vet check that it has not metastisized. Osteo can be really agressive. If it has spead to the lungs, be aware that you may only be prolonging the dog's life with chemo for a few months.
2. If you decide against amputation you must use major pain control before you let your beloved friend go, and that should be soon. The pain of osteo is horrible, even if the dog is not necessarily showing it yet.

I never second guess people on the decisions they make, because people who love their animals all try to make the best decisions we can. You know your dog best, and there is no "wrong" decision here.

I do know that sometimes the hardest but perhaps the best decision is to let our pets leave us as painfree as possible, even if we are not ready to let them go. It is harder on us, but better for them.

I hope this helps, and my thoughts are with you.

Scooby, my GS mix was diagnosed with bone cancer in February. She was about 14 and slowing down. She started limping and I thought she had pulled a muscle during one of her daily squirrel chases. After a couple of days of limping where I watched her closely for improvement she suddenly got worse. I took her to the vet who found a lump where her leg joined her body. The x-rays showed the cancer. The vet spent alot of time with me going over the different treatments and the prognosis. In Missy's case, the cancer was pretty far along and she had likely been in pain for some time but the pain had just now become so bad that the limp appeared. In the end, I let her go because all the treatments involved pain and the vet didn't feel Missy's quality of life would be very good. It was a very difficult decision to make and I am so sorry that you and your family must go through the same agony.

TexasPorch/Linda J

Scoobyruby- big hugs to you and your furkid.

The hardest part of having a pet is making the best decisions for them. That is what sets the best furkid moms and dads apart from the rest. When you have to decide what to do regarding their health/life it can be heartbreaking but you are doing the best you can for them.

Speaking from my experience as a vet tech, I would not go forward with amputation/chemo. With his age/weight/current health combination an amputation will most likely be a difficult recovery. Chemo treatment alone has effects that will not make him the furchild you know him as now- he will most likely be lethargic, nauseated, diarrhea, or listless following chemo treatments.

If the dr. is suspecting it in his lungs and you want to aggressively pursue treatment- see if x-ray shows cancer or if they can aspirate/biopsy a sample. The amputation is not so much as painful- they will medicate to help alleviate discomfort.

So my personal opinion based on work experience- I would make him comfortable, feed him his favorite foods, snuggle and love him, and monitor his health status.

It just tugs at me to hear of you having to go through this and i'm sending lots of good furry thoughts your way ****

I am so sorry to hear about your "first child" although my dog is much smaller and had part of his foot amputated due to bone cancer (a very aggressive kind) our advice from our vet was test to see if it spread (it was not detected) so we had it amputated but this was part of his foot including a toe. Our vet said just because they test to see if it has spread they are not always able to detect it early on. He was not able to walk on that leg for about 6 weeks (couldn't or wouldn't) but he got around just fine on 3 legs as it was one of his front legs. Our vet advised against chemo due to his age (11 at the time). Our vet too explained that bone cancer is extremely painful. We had him checked several times after he would no longer walk using that leg and it was several months before the x rays detected it. He is doing ok -13 years old going on 14. The hardest part after that was waiting to see if it spread and was not detected. I hope you have a wonderful vet who can help you make the best decision for your baby.

I am so touched by your thoughts about Sam. I have sat here and read and reread them for quite awhile ~ of course with the tears coming down. Yes, the once - in - a - lifetime - dog that I will not make suffer for our comfort. I, too, have seen friends let their dogs go on for too long. I was weak when I begged him at the lake this weekend to go on his own - we will have to do it for him.

I have had this baby since he took his first breath - I will continue to be a good mom to him even thou it hurts so bad. I will protect him from hurt and harm. It kills me to know that he is in such pain as he looks in my eyes with those soulful eyes and wags his tail.

I will talk more with the vet tomorrow & his old vet also.

I am so sorry for everyone that has lost their babies.

Scoob

I am so sorry to hear your sad news, Ruby. Everyone I have talked with who has had the vet do everything they could to save a dog with cancer has been sorry they did it -- including me. If he were a young dog, I'd do all I could.

But for an old dog I'd make him comfortable as possible, and let him go with dignity, not cut up, not poisoned, not burned. I would not add to his suffering, but rather do all I could to alleviate it. That's what I'd want if I were old and terminally ill. I'd rather take him for walks on the beach or in the mountains, or even just for sits there if that's all he feels like. Let him see the sun rise and set. I'd take him were lots of kids can pet him if he loves kids. I'd give him yummy meals and lots of hugs and kisses, and sit quietly with my arm around him.

Goldgirl,

I am a farmers daughter. We are practical people. The dog I kept too long was the one I inherited from my farmer parents (after they died). She lived to be 16 years old.

'Rosebud' was older than dirt and suffered beyond what she should have, because of me. In the end, she had little bowel control, which was so *not* like her. But I was on top of it, preserving her and her dignity. If her nails even hit the wood floor at night, I was wide awake, hurrying her to the bathroom (1:00 AM, 2:00 AM, 4:00 AM), whatever. DH couldn't believe how fast I awakened. She was like my new born baby.

Every year we go to our cabin on Packer Lake. The first year she was getting sick (I hadn't really noticed yet, even though I had cleaned up poop on my area rug once), I left her for the week with my sister. Rosie Bud pooped everywhere in her house that week. I was shocked at the lack of attention my sister had given her. (Denial)

Though out the next year, Rosebud didn't poop or pee one single time in my house but I knew the work it was taking to ensure her the dignity she deserved. And I was OK with caring for her.

When Packer Lake came around, she was really needing the kind of care that I knew my sister wouldn't understand and was not up to. So we took her with us. She could hardly walk to do her business and her poop was filled with blood. I was carrying her to do her business. (This was nothing 'Queen Rosebud' would have ever allowed in her day. She was used to being the boss.)

One morning, after an unavoidable and bloody disaster that didn't even allow a nail clip on the floor to awaken me, I realized what I was doing to her. I was destroying who she was, *for me*.

I didn't want to lose the last living thing I had of my Mom. I took her for one last walk/carry to the lake. She waded in the shallows and drank water and enjoyed herself, as much as she could. Then we traveled to the nearest vet and he evaluated her.

We decided that a 16 year old dog with Cushing Disease had had enough. Rosebud, the 'Velvetine Dog', with total loss of hair, dignity and purpose, was ready to be released from my own issues about life and death.

"Do you want to hold her?", "I don't think I can.", I replied, in tears. (I'm crying now.) The vet responded, "I don't think you can't. You will be comforted by how fast and painless it is.", "OK", I said with tears. "If you think it will be better for her."

It was amazingly peaceful and gave me great comfort. I still feel guilty about making her live so long for *me*.

I love my dogs.

To all: I grieve with each and every one who has made this decision. We stood by Pepper until her last breath -- weeping all the time.

But now -- I truly know that is was the only decision to make -- the one to let her go. It was simply her time.

SR: We stand with you. That dear lovely doggie soul is counting on your bravery at this time.

Jan ((((GROUP HUG))))))

I can barely type. My heart aches for you Scooby, and for all the others who've lost their beloved pets. We had a lovely, sweet, gently Rotty who came into our lives late in her life. She had two happy years with us and knew nothing but love in her last years. She developed cancer and went very, very fast. DH and I finally made the decision to take her to the vet and she let me, only me, hold her as they administered the shot. It was so hard for us, but to see the gratitude in her eyes before she closed them eased some of our pain. She no longer suffered and went very peacefully. Even tho we've got 3 dogs right now, I still miss her every day.

Hugs to you.

This thread is so heartbreaking and heartwarming at the same time. You are in my thoughts and prayers, scoobyruby.

"That's what I'd want if I were old and terminally ill."

My very wise mom used to say, "We're kinder to animals than we are to people", meaning that with our animals we have the choice to help them through the transition. I would like to think that my dear mom is now residing in a fun-loving and rambunctious kitty somewhere ;o)

(((Hugs))) to you, scooby, and may your heart be full, your memories bright and sweet, and your conscience clear. I am so, so sorry for what you are going through.

If it was me, I would let him go peacefully.
I know how hard it is, we had to put our beloved German Shepard to sleep 24 years ago due to her hips; and I wish we did it sooner because those are the memories I have of her; being in pain, not being able to get up, falling as she walked.

It sounds like your guy is pretty far into his cancer. I could not amputate the leg; I could not do the Tramadol. It sounds like he's having problems breathing; he can't tell you if he is in pain.

From what I know about bone cancer, it is painful.
I watched my dad go through radical chemo and not survive; but it was his decision to make.

I'm sorry you have to go through this.
You will make the decision that is right for you.

Do you think there is some correlation between all the hormones/ steroids/pesticides in our food and cancer? Or are we living longer and getting cancer where our ancestors didn't live long enough to get cancer?

At another forum I go to we're discussing this topic..
I have a teen that I need to put on birth control and I'm doing it with a heavy heart because I honestly feel that we've caused all of these cancers on ourselves. I feel that we're going to be seeing more cancers like Farrah had, which is caused by HPV.

I was reading the stand up 2 Cancer site - one of the new dream teams is looking into female cancers, it says that most cancers share this one thing; I would not be surprised if it came back eventually that it's due to the "hormones" we are putting in our bodies.

I wish doctors would take better histories.
I wish they would want to know about birth control in the past, things like tampons (which are treated with pesticides) and hormones for menopause.

Scoobyruby, a year ago I could have written your post. We were facing a similar decision for my 9 year old greyhound, Voldemort, so I completely understand that your heart is breaking.

Voldemort will have been a tripod for a year the first week in August. It has been a wonderful year and I am so glad we had the chance to enjoy it with him. We opted not to do the chemotherapy because statistically it would only extend his life a few months and he would have the treatments and nausea to deal with.

He went to bed fine and woke up the next morning with a significant limp which didn't go away. After discussing the options we took him home, tentatively planning to keep him comfortable with pain meds. However, two days later, he and his greyhound pal Blitzen took off on a full-out run as greyhounds love to do. When I caught up with them, they were standing shoulder-to-shoulder and Voldemort wasn't putting any weight on his rear leg. Turns out he had a broken leg and it could not be repaired and the next day we brought home our tripod. After a few days of recovery, he essentially returned, pain free, to his normal activity. It is amazing how well a three legged dog can get around. Often, when people first meet him, it is a few minutes before they even realize he is missing a leg.
He was X-rayed for something unrelated and I asked them to do his lungs while he was on the table. Sure enough, he has metastases to his lungs, but for now he is symptom free.

He doesn't handle slippery floors very well. A few times he has fallen and couldn't get up without help, so now he is afraid of them and avoids them. Almost our entire downstairs is hardwood floors and hard surface floors in the kitchen. He stops at the door to the kitchen. We also have inexpensive runners from Home Depot crisscrossing the floors.

I felt that you needed to hear a positive experience with amputation. As humans, we have to get over a psychological resistance to the whole idea, because it is so much more significant in two legged animals. A dog probably doesn't care if he has three legs as long as he has his human/animal pack around him, regular meals, a soft bed, tummy rubs, etc.

I am grateful that we have had this year to love him and spoil him and we will continue to as long as he is enjoying life.

Scooby I'm so sorry to hear you're going through this. I love my cats dearly. We had a dog growing up that eventually at 18 had to be left go. My Dad held off longer than we should have. It was the hardest thing. Hugs to you and your family.

((((Hugs to everyone))))) Cancer is so hard for people & animals. I lost my dad 3 years ago to cancer & at the end wished there was a way to end his suffering. Stage IV lung cancer - he fought a good fight - stubborn as he**.

These furbabies are our part of our families!! Before we had DS, my mom said she had Granddogs - she is just as upset as we are.

I took Sam off the Tramadol yesterday as an experiment & OMG he was Sam!! He played & was active....had his gay crush on our little shih tzu & his bff the weinee dog!! It is too funny to see a big 110lb dog trying to hump the little 15lb dogs(all boys)......our dogs wear the rainbow rings with pride out here:) (I really know they aren't gay - we just love to joke - no offense to anyone - really!! - my fav bars are gay bars!)

So, as long as he is eating & playing and being Sam....I am going to enjoy our time with him. I will give him the Tramadol at night to help him sleep & let him enjoy his days. Hopefully, he will let me know when it is his time. He got to go to the lake last week, swim & go on the boat - so we crossed that off his bucket list - hump on his little friends - cross that one off - he eats anything we eat - and of course, most importantly - our love! So, I can say goodbye when the time comes with no regret and know that we have given him the best life possible and accept the many lessons he has given me about life and love.

I can now sign with my usual sign-off b/c you all have helped me so much & have now become much more than sound-offs for my decorating needs(?) but friends....
Smiles:)

I just opened this thread -- couldn't bear to do it earlier -- and I'm so glad I waited, to be honest...scooby, you and Sam are doing *so exactly* the right thing...it's so clear. The right time will still be sad, but you'll know it's right and so will he.

And I've been on Tramadol for the past...oh...8 years now?! It's helped me (and my family) immensely. I don't have what he has, but it's not miserable at all if you are getting the correct (not too much) dosage.

(Re holding the little fur one while the euthanasia is being administered -- I will swear to my last day that my Bounder sent me a mind message as I held him close while the anaesthetic was going in -- he said [in English...but hey] "Thank you"...I heard the mind voice as clear as day. I'm serious. It had such a tone of relief and I got a feeling that he said it just as he was flying away...so strange and completely unexpected but so real. I will just share this with you, fwiw.)

Now that you have been given the immense gift of time, you might also want to take a little of that time to think about how you'll handle his passing, when it comes, with the other little guys, to make sure they know it's happened and so you all can help each other through it.

Fly, yes! I had that same feeling about Rosebud. It was as if I shouldn't even mourn her. Of course I had been mourning her before she died without realizing it. But it was so right and I actually enjoyed the rest of our vacation. Very strange but true.

Sounds like you're taking great care of him. I'd do the same - let him do all the things he loves.

Just a comment about the humping - in most cases it's really not sexual at all, but a way dogs show dominance over another dog or even a toy. Our dog will do it occasionally when he gets really excited when you're playing with him. He was neutered by the breeder at 10 weeks old, so I don't think he ever had a sexual thought his whole life!